Hi.
This is Kaihamann from Lauf, Germany, and I play it golf Club laut Houfen.
This is Goolf Smarter number nine hundred eighty four. When you first got into this business and you would walk into an industry room, heads would turn and go, he's not one of us. He doesn't look like us, he doesn't talk like us. Through this guy, and now you walk in the room, heads turn going, how do we do like him?
This is not an exaggeration. I mean people literally used to point and laugh at me, like I would look up and I'd see the other bags across the green and they just never at any time took us.
Seriously in any way. But even last year, I.
Mean people were really starting to be much nicer and complimentary and come up and shake hands with very respectful appreciations. I mean, look, I didn't know how hard it would be, and if I did, I don't know that I would
have done it. And so I think that in addition to the respect for the technology that a lot of the other companies are now exhibiting, I think they also appreciate that like going from absolutely nobody from nowhere in the middle of the desert and reno to having fifteen percent of the putter market.
It's not something you see every day.
Padam Scott collaborates on the all new lab Os one putter with CEO Sam On. This is Golf Smarter, sharing stories, tips and insights from great golf minds to help you lower your score and raise your golf IQ. Here's your host, Fred Green. Welcome back to the Golf Smarter Podcast. Sam.
Thanks for having me Fred.
It's great to have you on. You've got news to talk about, so that's why we had to have you on. But before we get to that important putter news, new putter news beat, the Boss videos. Everybody check these out. It is so much fun to watch these, and you are extremely competitive.
I've been pretty lucky so far.
Explain what the Boss videos are.
So we've just.
You know, as I've talked about here, a bunch like labs really special. And the reason it's so special is the people we have, like an incredible team of folks here. And one of the things that we've done that's a little bit different than a lot of golf companies is that we really really prioritize golf.
If you if you look.
Kind of throughout the industry, like any industry, you know, the work is hard and time consuming, and golf is hard and time consuming, and if you have kind of a big job within the industry, it's really difficult to get out and play and to practice and all that. We're lucky enough that our factory just sits right here on a golf course.
You know. You came out to visit us and amazing, it's awesome, you know.
And it's a strong course to you know, really really tough track and usually in pretty good shape.
And the University of Oregon's golf team.
Is right correct. Yeah.
Yeah, So I was watching a video about the team and their whole area there, and I'm like, wait a minute, I know that golf course.
I played there with Sam totally.
Yeah. So it's it's really good, good course, and you know, and and and consequently, we've got some good players who are still good, you know, whose games are still sharp because you know, we make sure that they get out to practice and play and and so you know, like I I've got, you know, my job here and which puts me in front of the camera a lot and
a lot of folks know who I am. But almost across the board when people come to visit us, they're blown away at how many people there are, and how big the operation is and and how many, you know, really awesome players we have. And so the idea started as just to kind of use these little nine hole matches as an opportunity to introduce the world to to a lot of the folks that make Labs so special.
And then it's sort of evolved into you know, not just employees, but you know, media partners and and and and social media collaborators and just people that we have any kind of connection with, and it's an opportunity just to get to know people. There's so much that happens in this industry that the general consumer would never know about.
There's so many people that have such a massive influence on the game, and so this is just a really fun opportunity to get those folks in front of a camera so that the rest of the world can can know who they are and what they do. And yes, so far, I've I've I think, I think, we've we've three, we we've recorded five. Now three of them have already been out. I'm through those three. I remain undefeated, but
I'm totally honest. There's definitely about a half a dozen guys inside this building that I've been ducking until until my game feels.
A little sharper.
Yeah. So we were lucky enough when we came up and visited you to do some video of the tour. So hopefully people have gone in and seen the tour of Lab Golf and the factory that you guys have. But you're one of those people that before Lab Golf, you weren't in the industry, correct right now, you were just a consumer and a golf junkie. What is it that surprises you about the industry that you've been in. You talk about all these things that people don't know
about in the industry until you get there. What about you?
What was the big surprise or.
Continues to be a big surprise.
That's a good question. I mean, there's a lot of things that are surprising. There's certainly, you know, plenty of surprises at the tour level, and hanging out with those guys is you know, definitely been an interesting perspective. And I've yeah, I've been surprised quite a few times out on tour, but specifically related to the equipment industry, I think I was surprised to find out what a machine it is, you know, and you know, kind of the more.
Time I've been in the.
Industry, like the whole Carl's Bad scene is it's wild, you know explained. Well, it's just they're all there, you know, like all the you know, Callaway and Titleist and tailor Made, and you know, half a dozen other smaller companies are all right there in Carlsbad.
And so it's like this.
It's a highly competitive industry, more more so than I think a lot of other consumer brands. And with a few exceptions in you know, kind of recent history, the last forty fifty years, for the most part, golf is a is a market share war, and each company is just trying to kind of take from the other one.
Uh.
There isn't a ton of effort made to sort of grow the entire industry. And I've been like surprise, and I guess, frankly a little disappointed to find out how little consideration there is for genuine innovation. The folks within the R and D departments of every company are exactly who you hope they are. They're they're brilliant, they're educated, they're talented, they have you know, interesting insight into equipment, they're trying to push boundaries, they're trying.
To improve.
And then you know, as we've gotten bigger and you know, can't be as like completely nimble as we used to be, where you know, as soon as the putter was ready, we could just release it.
You know, now we can't do that.
There's you know, there's you know, retail relationships and marketing and you know, it's just a it's just a bigger operation to the point that we need to be a little bit more deliberate about everything, and we are committed to making sure that our research and development.
Drives are our product release schedule.
And I think it gets to a point where a lot of these OEMs unfortunately kind of need to make let marketing dictate what does and does not come to market.
And so that's been you know, I guess a little surprising.
Like I guess I just assumed that the whole industry was full of a bunch of folks like us here at LAB you know that are just total golf chunkies and and and just nerding out. But you know, and this is this is not a judgment at all. It's it's a business. You know, in a big one. And you know, in some of these cases, you know, with the larger OEMs. I mean, these are billion dollar corporations that have to be very, very deliberate about everything that
they do. And unfortunately, you know, releasing only that which is a genuine improvement over the product before isn't necessarily you know, the priority. No, they got to get market, you know, they got to get product to market. They got to you know, day in front of the cameras and.
Paint the head white. That'll do it.
Yeah, you know, stuff like that. What else has been surprising about the industry.
Well, I'm curious that I'm going to go back to what you said about the R and D folks that are all down there and stuff. Do they have their own community from company to company or do they isolate themselves.
That's a good question.
You know, I don't really know. I haven't I've been down there a little bit lately with some other projects, but I don't know. You know, we've we've only just recently, we had been very deliberate about hiring outside of the industry.
Lately, we've we've we've brought on a few folks that have.
Some experience in Carlsbad and and kind of the whole scene a bounced you know, back and forth between different companies. I mean like that that's the one of the funniest things.
It's just like the straight like human horse trading that happens like where I mean, there's these guys that have you know, worked in Earnest for all three you know, major OEMs down there, and you know, California has no noncompete laws, so there's there's always just this game of you know, trying to steal this guy, and if you
steal that guy, I mean to steal this guy. And you know, it all just gets mixed around, like like recently, Oustie Rollins, who was one of the guys that designed a lot of putters for Odyssey, including the Jailbird.
He works for Scotty Cameron.
Now, so he was with Odyssey forever and now he's over at the Scotty Cameron and you know, you can see his influence in those putters that they just came out with that sort of have that that versa you know, silver black, silver thing going on, and you know, have a similar resemblance to to some of the Odyssey shapes, and so you know, I don't know if they have like a R and d uh weekend support group for each other or not.
They all seem to know each other.
And you know it's funny too, like a lot of them. Will you know, We've got a guy who works here who you know, is really really tight with guys that work for our competitors, and they have to have these conversations and just never mentioned golf.
You know, it's all it's all families and.
You know whatever else because their nbas prevent them from actually talking shop and.
The phone calls are being recorded. Yeah, exactly right, they are listening. George Lucas, Francis Ford Coppola moved their production operations to northern California so they didn't have to deal with Los Angeles and the business of movie making, right. They wanted to be independent as movie makers to make what they wanted to make. And you're saying, everybody's down in Carlsbad and you've isolated yourself in this little corner
of Oregon. Is that intentional or now in retrospect or you're going, oh, maybe we should have been down there.
Oh no, I I mean the location itself is beautiful. I was just last week for the PGA Tour Superstore Vendor summit, so like the superstar asshole come and talk about all the different products and everything, and yeah, it's beautiful. Arm We had a house, you know, right on the cliff, and that part of it is pretty appealing.
The rest of it. No, I I'm really grateful that we're up here. No, we did not.
We did not intend, you know, to separate ourselves. It's just where I lived, you know, I had. I had, you know, when when we stopped doing stuff in Reno, and.
That's where he was.
That's where Bill was.
Yeah, and that's where the we had a little factory in Carson City. And and then when he stopped handling the day to day stuff, you know, I needed to be more involved. So we moved the company up here just because is where I lived. And it wasn't you know, the company was tiny at that point. It wasn't like there was you know, massive implications around having a talent pool to hire from, or you know, tax implications or
you know things like that which aren't great. You know, up here in Oregon there's serious corporate tax nine percent, and then you know, yeah, there's there's not a huge talent pool pool of you know, golf specific folks. However, we've found that for our manufacturing process that isn't really as important.
It does get difficult, Like we're working.
On, uh, you know, growing our R and D team significantly.
That's tough, you know.
Being in in in Eugene, but I'm not sure I'd prefer to be in Carlsbad, you know. And and the analogy I can think of as is, you know, in the bar business, you know, where whenever we needed to hire a bartender, there was always kind of this you know, question as to whether or not you wanted to hire somebody with experience, or whether or not you wanted to
hire somebody that had never done it before. The advantage of hiring somebody experience is that your training process is a week and a half long.
You need to teach them, you know, the.
Little nuances of how your bar works versus other bars. But the drawback of that is that they're always going to make an old fashioned the way that they make an old fashioned, even if it's not the way that you know that our bar makes an old fashioned, and it's and they kind of get, you know, stuck and doing things a certain way it's similar here where you know, I'm not positive i'd want engineers that have worked at other companies. I mean, particularly in the putter business.
You know, the we.
The lab broke the mold.
We broke them old, and we found that a lot of the folks within the industry still have a hard time accepting that. And so pulling from within that industry to have to like can vinced somebody that something special is going on here is a little bit more tedious than you know, having somebody who's never done this kind of work before, and at least specifically in the golf business. So it's got its pros and cons. But I mean
the biggest pro is the golf. I mean that we sit on a you know, there's no opportunity like this anywhere in Carlsbad golf is. It's impossible to play golf in Carlsbad unless you you know, belong to a private club, like you know, public.
Totally.
And you know that that we have, you know, this incredible practice facility and this huge golf course and you know, all of this right here is definitely something I wouldn't trade for anything.
Yeah. Yeah, So when you and I first started speaking, when I first became a lab rat back I don't know about five years ago. I guess twenty eighteen.
Yeah, probably would have been nineteen.
Yeah, yeah, and you bought the company in what year?
So Bill and I met in the summer twenty seventeen. We kind of got serious about talking about partnering in the fall, and then by spring of twenty eighteen it was official.
Yeah. Yeah, So it was either end of eighteen beginning of nineteen that we first met. You had like fifteen eighteen employees at the time.
Oh, probably less than that.
Yeah, I think we probably had I think when we moved to Eugene, which was in twenty twenty. I want to say we can't. I think we had twelve wow, in twenty twenty.
And twenty twenty five. As we start the new year.
I think about one hundred and eighty.
Yeah, and you own the building.
We don't own the building, but we do have a nice lease on it. And we now have the whole building, whereas we used to kind of be in one junk over here at barbershops there and whatever.
Barbershops still there for the moment.
But yes, she's going to be moving to downtown Creswell and hopefully be a better spot for her.
We'll have a nice, fancy new break.
Room, and then there's some space that can be grow. You can grow your space there as well.
Correct. Yeah, there's there's a there's another lot across the.
Street, and you know, should we need it, the space is there.
Wow, that's amazing. Can a company survive with just a product, meaning a Putter, because not many of the OEMs just do one type of club?
Yeah, I mean all evidence would say yeah, I mean, we're doing it.
It actually occurred to us. I think we're probably the I.
Can't think of anybody else who would be able to claim this, but I think that we are the largest standalone putter company in the history of the game.
Wow. Well, I've been telling people you're the hottest company in the industry.
For sure, fastest growing, for sure, But I I don't I can't think of another standalone putter company that ever made it to the heights that we did before, you know, either getting absorbed by a bigger OEM or when.
Tiger started using the Scottie Cameron.
That was a Titleist product.
It was a Titleist product, okay, And before.
And before that he was he was with Mizuno and and I also even then, I don't I don't think Scotty Cameron was as big as Lab is now. They are now, obviously, but you know when it started out, I don't, I don't think so. So yeah, I mean yeah, and you know, obviously Cameron is kind of a standalone brand, you know, aside from Titleist or whatever. But I mean totally bootstrapping it. I know of no putter company that's ever, you know, made as big as Splash as we have these last few years.
And the key to that was success on the tour.
It certainly helped.
I mean there, you know, they're through our entire company history at this point is just a series of lucky breaks and you know, timing and.
You know all that. But I mean, even without the tour, the company was on a.
You know, significant trajectory, even before Lucas and all that that craziness.
It certainly helps.
Yeah, yeah. And it was when Lucas won two weeks in a row after being just documented of struggling for a decade with his putting. Then he won two weeks in a row, and he had a Lab broomstick in his hand, and everyone took notice. Even though a lot of people were going, wait a minute, Adam Scott's.
Playing, we have to call it. We have to call them sweepers. Now, by the way, we can't call them broomsticks anymore.
Oh really? Why?
Oh no, Calorie managed to somehow trademark the word broomstick and sent us a cease and desist. Oh my gosh, yeah, we now call them sweepers. So, yes, Lucas was using a MEZ sweeper, but.
It wasn't a sweeper at the time.
No, no, it sure wasn't.
That must have been all hands on deck. We just got this season desist letter. What was the reaction to that?
Just like I I mean, it was. It's just it's just so petty, and.
You know, and the unfortunate thing is it's like, you know, they got a guy, you know, their their legal teams doing their job. They're trying trademark and patent whatever you can, right, and it's a little weird that they went and did it. It's certainly weird that they enforced it, but you know,
that's their prerogative. But it's just the biggest failing in all of this is just that the US Patent Office allowed them to trademark a household item is wild and like if we wanted to do anything about it, the actions with them not callaway end, which we got better things to do.
It's kind of like the time I got pulled over by a young cop and I was not young. I'm like, what do you want? You know? What can I do? I'm sorry, but you have something better to do this. I didn't do anything. Can we be alone? Oh? God?
All right?
So what happens? No, what would it take beyond just cash? Or is it just cash for someone to come to you say we want we want to put our brand on lab putters. We want to buy your company?
Oh like another OEM?
Sure no elon Musk.
Well yeah, I mean I don't.
I don't personally see you know, if there is to be somebody out there to to to buy us, I would doubt very much it would be another OEM at
this point. At this point, it's just too expensive for them, you know, like the And this kind of goes back to what I was saying a second ago, where there's just there really isn't precedent for a standalone you know, technology or or company that you know is achieving what we've achieved in the market, and so it's gotten to the point where, like a lot of times, what you'll see is these OEMs if they see emerging technology, a lot of times they buy it and just put it
on the shelf just to protect themselves from you know, getting out TechEd. Multiple companies have their opportunity with us and and you know, ultimately passed on it. And then I think it was surprising to everyone how how you know, how big a share we ended up, big a market share we've we've ended up with, But there's all the writing on the wall, and then you know, kind of getting priced out of being a reasonable option for them to just kind of buy and put it in a drawer.
It's just too big a company now.
So now what you're saying instead is them, you know, attempting to compete with the technology, which you know is inevitable. And we knew, we knew we'd see it at some point, and so yeah, I think I think that's what's that's what's going to continue to happen. I think we'll see, you know, putters that are claiming similar technologies to us continue to pop up from every brand over the course of the next you know, eighteen months.
Or so yeah, we'll get into that. We'll get into that, but it's probably more like if they're going to buy it, they're just coming in to buy your patents, not your products.
Well that I mean that that's kind of the reason why they wouldn't is that at this point it would be, well, it's too big, and it would be it would be silly for them to shut it down. It's it's a it's a healthy company. It's profitable. It you know, it has a presence, it has tour players, it has all the stuff like it's not like it's not like some small emerging company. You know, there would be no reason for them to just shut it down and put it
in a drawer because it's a healthy company. At the same time, it's it's complicated to try to like own two brands, you know, so it would make sense. It would make sense for a company that doesn't have like a huge you know, have any putter you know, uh uh, you know, anything in the putter in the Potter space, like a strick sound for instance.
You know.
They do never compromise, I think, or maybe Cleveland does. I'm not sure exactly how that whole company works, and so maybe something like that, or or a company that struggled to kind of have putters be a significant part of their business, like a like a PXG or or a Cobra or you know, somebody like that that's that's got some product in the potter space, but never really
you know, made a huge splash. Might make some sense for for something like that, but you know, I frankly don't see it, and it would have to be we wouldn't entertain anything that wouldn't allow us to contain you to effectively operate the way that we operate with our own brand, with our people in our building here in Creswell.
And so you know, if you're a if you're a major OEM.
From Carlsbad, and you know, maybe there's a nice opportunity here. It's a weird thing to be a billion dollar company and just allow for this little siloed you know, group of folks up in Eugene to just do their own thing. So, you know, if anybody was to ever buy us, my guess is it's you know, private equity or some some kind of somebody that's strategic in the manufacturing space or something like that. I at this point, I think the the OEM.
Acquisition ship has probably sailed.
But the reason I really wanted to get you back on the show today is because the last time you were on, it was on what we were doing face to face on the computers. You are just about to introduce the DF three, and then I came to visit you and we did a a demo of you teaching me the sweeper. Anybody listening, we didn't say that B word. This sweet.
We can say it, we just can't advertise it. And if we can't advertise it, I don't want anybody say any get it.
But you've come up with another new putter. And what's very exciting about this one is you worked with to quote you, you worked with Adam freak and Scott You interviewed him. You were like, you're Adam freaking Scott Man, and I'm like, no, no, no, you're Sam freaking han Man. You've done it too. You are a star. So, but you've got a new a new putter, new design, but it's still with the science that has been developed for
the directed force and beyond. Let's hear the story about this, how this came about.
Yeah, So the putter you're you're talking about it's called oz One. And it all started just kind of it started with Adam. So we were he and I were together in Los Angeles in twenty two, I think it was he was there for the Rivier event. We played some golf together at at Los Angeles Country Club. We had a great round and in a really fun day, and.
Then we were just sitting in the clubhouse and.
And just talking and and we want, you know, he's been so good to us, and he's really helped put us on the map more than just using the putter. I mean, he's out there on tour and talking to folks about it and he really helps us out. And he's he's never asked for a dollar. He's never you know, he's just been such a gentleman about it. And we wanted to do something for him. So the idea, you know, kind of started there. Having mentioned one day he'd love
to design a putter. I thought, we, why don't we, you know, design a putter together. You could take a little slice of it. And you know, we since actually ended up working out a different deal, but but.
That was sort of the starting point.
And then yeah, as you know, as the story goes, we literally started drawing putters on napkins that in the in the bar at L A C C. And kind of got a starting point of of what we wanted it to look like. And and then you know, sort of engaged more officially on on this endeavor, and.
Gosh, eight.
Twelve months later we had a finalized design and then another six months of sort of the pre work of of of releasing a putter. And but it.
Was really really cool.
I mean, we had we had ideas, you know, about what where we were going to be going with our next product. Anyway, it it it lined up with you know, kind of what Adam was looking for, and.
Which was what just a D shaped mallet.
You know, we we we had sort of checked off our version of you know, a fang putter, our version of of sort of a simple blade putter. We'd you know acquiesced to uh those out there who liked the idea behind the DF, but it was too much, you know, too big, So we made the d F three and so there was you know, space in our lineup for for sort of a a D shaped mallet, and so we were aligned there and then you know, it was a really fun process, a really fun creative process.
He came out to Eugene.
We spent a couple of days together with some you know, basic uh uh CAD drawings and stuff, and he would go through and say what he liked about this one
and didn't like about that one. And then then we started three D printing you know, plastic prototypes just for for shape and aesthetics and stuff like that, and then got there fairly well, uh arrowed down to just a couple of shapes, and then and then we started making them out of aluminum and we'd send them to them, he'd give us feedback, and at this point we're also passing it around to our guys here at the shop to.
To really start to refine it.
And then once you know, the basic shape, sound, feel, all that stuff is decided, then the really hard work begins for the guys downstairs, where you know, engineering a putter to balance at a single lie angle and a couple of lengths.
Is really hard. But not you know, not monumental.
Having a chassis that can be balanced at any length, any lie any swing weight, this is challenging. This is
a major major engineering feat. And so once all that stuff was decided, you know, like and even even Adam was wondering, like, you know, what's it's taken so long, you know, because once we have the shape, it was like it should have gone pretty quick, and uh, and it doesn't because you know, getting you know, the waite ports to be in the right spot and the shaft to be in exactly the right spot, you know, to with you know, tolerances of you know, a thousandth of an inch and you know, it's.
It's it's real tricky.
And so to the point where even still we're we're still you know, the chassis and everything is ready to go for the sweeper version, but the engineering side of it, we're.
Still we're still screwing with It's still hard. So but we're getting there.
I was gonna I was going to ask it was there times where Adam would suggest something or come up with something and your team would just be going not so.
Yeah, there was you know a couple of things that he liked. Like we've uh, you know, ultimately, once once every part of the the model that we're going to be released we're leasing to the public is all done and released. You know, he's Adam Scott, so we will make him whatever he wants, and so if there's you know, slight modifications to the design that he'd like to see, we can we can accommodate that, actually, and not even so much on the Putter design were we were pretty we were pretty aligned.
There.
There was one you know, a couple cuts here and you know, fill it there or whatever that were that were what they were. But the graphics on the bottom, you know, just simple stuff just you know, where we're lasering the logo and the the OS one logo and the you know, we did a special release with him that had some more you know, sort of in depth graphics and stuff like that, and there there was one round of graphics and we were really up against deadlines
and it was it was such a shake up. But like the graphics team had sent him some stuff for approval and I hadn't seen it, and then the one that he chose was like the one out of six that was like absolutely.
Not so we had to go back and say, like, you're gonna have to pick again.
But no, I mean, he's everybody was really aligned on what we wanted this thing to look, sound feel like.
And uh so, yeah, it was not a terribly tedious process.
You guys must have a collection of bar napkins with drawings on them. You're gonna have your own like napkin Hall of Fame. Here's the ball sack with the original logo. Everyone's like, yeah, this is great. It's like, no, it's not good. So what is different from the OZ one and from the most recent DF three? But then you also have a new blade, right? You have the link? Is it links?
Link one's been out for a few years now.
Yeah, I mean mostly mallets though, you know recently, I mean yeah, I mean what you're doing these days is mostly the bigger headed putters.
Correct. Yeah. In OZ.
Every time we make a new putter, the vast majority of the intent is around listening to what folks want, you know, and so over the last you know, four or five years, definitely, one of the big complaints that we've gotten is about aesthetics, of course, and we'll get to that in a second. But you know, another one was about sound, feel and ball speed, and so we make all of our putters out of aluminum, which is a softer material than a stainless steel or a carbon steel,
which does impact the ball speed. Additionally, because of the nature of our technology, the shaft has to be located pretty far away from the so the further the center of mask gets from the face, the slower the ball speed. So we have a soft material. Then we have some grooves to help with ball roll, and some sound and feel, and this really deep CG and you add all those things up and you have a really big putter that hits the ball very very softly, which for a lot
of people is kind of, you know, awkward. So we had some and then additionally, because it's aluminum, and because there's holes and there's this, and there's that, a lot of times the sound isn't exactly what people are hoping for. Some of the earlier messes for instance, you know, and the DF two point one still have kind of a you know, a tink to them that isn't desirable for
a lot of people. So we wanted to solve for the sound and the ball speed issue with OZ and to that end, we were able to get the CG way forward. And one of the sort of accidental benefits of getting it that far forward was that we started experimenting with a zero shaft lean option, which enables people to use their favorite grip, which is another one of the complaints that we get where they like these putters,
and they like the science, they like the concept. But you know, because of our angled grip, we only have so many shapes, and if you know, you don't happen to fit into one of the shapes that we offer, you know, you're you're you're kind of out of luck. And so OZ has much higher ball speed because of the forward CG. The zero shafting is available because of the forward CG, which enables you to use any grip
you want. And then also we've got some optionality now around what's on the face, and so we have an all aluminum version coming out here in a couple of weeks. The one that we released already is called the OS one I I standing for insert, and it's a stainless steel insert and balls coming off kind of, you know, depending upon a few other factors, between ten and fifteen percent faster than some of our other models, which.
Is a big deal.
It's a big adjustment.
That's a big adjustment and you know a lot of for sure, it's not I mean that like when people will come out and do fittings, you know, in a sort of siloed environment, hitting same ten twelve foot put over and over again. You're not going to see the speed issues as much as when you get out on
the golf course. And so we you know, do a fitting here and build them their putter, and we get out on the golf course and they're starting everything online, but definitely struggling to adjust to speed the last you know, six eight months since we've had ozes around. You know, for people to demo, there's no speed adjustment. These things, you know, kind of a fall right in line with any other putter off the rack.
For the most part. With the stainless insert, they're coming off fast enough that you know, the people aren't needing to make too big an adjustment. However, we are noticing that people who have been used to LAB putters are having some of them are having a harder time with the with the stainless insert, particularly out on tour. We've got you know, a lot of the insert ones, the only ones that are currently available, and a lot of the lab user is currently you know, try the o's.
They like the shape, they like the way it looks and sets up and all the stuff, but the feel is such a departure from what they're used to do with their labs. That they're they're they're waiting around to get the all aluminum version.
Yeah, and so the biggest difference between the insert and the all aluminum is is the ball speed when it comes off.
Face ball speed, and certainly sound slash feel sound sound is feel for the most part. And yeah, there's much more of a pronounced click, you know, coming off the OS one eye. So so for people who like, you know, traditional stainless milled putters, this is not going to be a big departure for them to get into an OS.
It's going to feel very similar.
How does Adam like it?
He likes it a lot.
He's gonna end up on using the aluminum, as my guess, we're still a couple probably a couple versions away from finalizing the sweeper version, so he's still using his mes.
Until we get it right. We had one that was real close.
Ultimately, uh, He and a couple other tour players agreed that the face was a little deep, just too too high off the ground. And because of the engineering realities, it's not as simple as just taking the face down.
Now you've moved the CG and you've.
Shrunk the depth you know available for the wait ports and so you know, everything on the bottom needed to get reorganized, and you know it's taken months to to make that that simple. I think one point five millimeter change in face height.
So but we're almost there.
A couple of things about the oz One oz One I fitting process the same you guys, just your online fitting process, which is truly remarkable and so simple. People are like, really, that's all you gotta do, that's all you got to do.
Yeah, it's hard. It's hard to believe.
You can take a lot, you know, because if you're like a golf nerd, you know, you've gone to a Trucepeck or a club champion who fit for our putters and they do a great, you know, very thorough job, and you're on the Quintic and you're you know, hitting a bunch of putts and deciding all kinds of different specs on your putter, and then all of a sudden, Labs saying you can just take a five second cell phone video and send it in and you know, you get the same results. And it's hard to believe, but
it's legit. The remote fitting really does work. But all of our retail partners can fit, so if you want to do it in person, you can if you want to do the online fitting, you can either.
Either's perfectly fine.
But if you've already got specs, you've already used a lab putter, and your putter lays down flush without as you know, without a fight, and you haven't changed anything, there's no reason you can't use the same specs.
Okay, okay.
And you know, one of the big changes that you made with the DF three versus the direct force two point one and the mess and everything else was you included your little gimme grabber your balls, which was a huge success. People just they say to me, able is that? Some persons said to me, is like that a magnet? What is that? It's like just a perfect fit for a ball, And it's like, wow, that's really cool, and that's that's true. Everyone responds to that's a really cool
way to lift the ball. And what about with the oss.
You can you can pick it up.
It's more of a traditional scoop like you would with a with a with an answer, with a you know, anything with sort of a recessed flange, there easier to pick up than.
A D two point one. I never found out easy. Nothing's as easy as the d F three.
Yeah yeah, and then what about availability, uh for people to go and hit some of the retailers. Are they getting out there or is it still a direct to consumer product?
So so this month they're all starting to hit the shelves, so they'll be available, correct, Yes, yeah, they'll be They'll be available for anyone to.
Touch and feel.
I think by January twenty fifth, is the hope.
Wow, okay, awesome, that's great. That's great. So the company has been growing because more and more PGA Tour players seem to be absorbing it, like I just this past weekend was the Sony Open JJ Brown, who is making a run on Saturday spawn right spot. He was playing DF three right, yeah he was. And last week was the premiere of TGL on ESPN. Ricky fell and I've got I'm wearing my the Bay Golf Club nice sure already, but I loved it. I loved TJL. I thought it was really good.
I didn't get to see it, but everybody said it was great.
Well, it'll be on you know, it's Tuesday nights. And Ricky Fowler was using his DF three always.
Yeah, the tour stuff's been great.
I would say that the growth has actually been more attributed to our customers, you know, our customers. Yeah, but it's more than word of mouth, you know, like it like, yeah, exactly. You know, people people are seeing their friends make putts and and then going out and trying it for themselves, and so you know, like it's not like.
You know, heye you hear about this new putter.
I mean, people are just like straight up evangelists for for our company.
I mean they're out there.
You know, pushing as hard as they possibly can to to help us out.
And that's why we are where we are. And it's amazing.
I mean, it's an amazing group of folks that are out there using our putter, extolling the virtues and and and getting folks to switch. And yes, the tour stuff helps validate someone's decision, you know, to go to go give it a shot. But we haven't seen you know, with tour usage. It used to be that we could see in real time on our you know website, you know, big spikes in website hits and all that stuff if it got on TV. We don't really see that quite
as much anymore. There's still tiny little spikes here and there. It kind of depends upon the moment, depends upon you know, the putter, the player, all the stuff. But really it's just it's kind of everything, you know, it's all the support we've gotten from the folks out on YouTube. It's you know, support we get from folks like you, influencers,
tour players, celebrities, but mostly customers. Mostly just you know, the the lab Rats of the world out there pushing it on their palas is kind of what's inspired most of the growth.
It's funny, I'm wearing this jersey here, I was gonna wear my lab Rat sweat and I thought, no, that's that's like a little bit over the line here for in the interview, and then look, I'm a fan man, so like Adam Scott, was it Adam Scott or Lucas Glover's like, oh no, no, I can win the Masters with this buttter?
That was Adam.
He didn't And to be to be clear, he didn't say I can win the Masters. He looked me dead in the face and said, I'm going to win the Masters with this buttter?
What does that do to your sales?
I mean he didn't say it to anybody else, He just said it to me. So it didn't do a whole lot to our sales.
You know, but when he does, when somebody wins a major major, let alone the Masters, what happens.
To it will be huge.
I mean, it'll be absolutely massive when that happens. And you know that that's kind of that next tier where you're getting you know, a lot more views from the average golfer than you would, you know, like at a Sony like you know, I mean Grayson Murray, you know one Sony last year with a link and then JJ was you know, putting really well all week. You know, he's somebody you know, similar to to like not certainly doesn't have the yips, but I mean putting stats wise
hasn't been particularly strong. I think he finished last year around one twenty six and then this week he was twenty something and so you know that's a big deal for somebody to improve that much.
But it's a Sony Open.
Footballs you know, still what most people are watching, and so you know, the Sony Open or the you know, some of these early season events definitely don't move the needle like you know, somebody seeing it on TV at the Masters something like that, you know, makes it makes for a very different.
Different set eyes.
I mean, you look at what happened with the Jailbird a few years ago, where the Jailbird, you know, was out I think in kind of the mid teens, I want to say, like sixteen seventeen when it was originally put out there, and then it sort of fell into obscurity and then you know, Ricky been using it for well over a year but it didn't do anything, but then he ended up in the final group with the US Open, and now they had to reissue the putter.
So yes, you know, major championships definitely moved the needle as far as equipment is concerned.
Yeah. Yeah, So it's not just the PGA Tour. There's a lot of other people who are high profile golfers on champions Tour and the corn Ferry, right, I mean, you've got a lot of players who are now and you don't pay any of them. They're doing this all on there by choice because of results, correct.
Yeah, yeah, we've got a ton. I mean, the Darryl Survey is the entity that sort of tracks usage of products across all tours, and you know the comparative numbers is from twenty four to twenty three or third cert. I mean, it's just totally totally absurds, you know, one thousand percent growth plus, you know, I mean, just crazy stuff we've you know, and you know, we got the poor Liam. You know, I think Liam, you had Liam on the show before.
I think I have been trying to get Liam on and well he knows what I'm calling about, and he's like, yeah, I'm not gonna do that.
Well he's he got, you know, to the point where it was just too much. So we've got like a whole tour department. Now, we've got reps on every tour. We've got a director of Brandon Harding. He was crazy busy and he and and you know, it was him and Brandon Harding were doing everything. So it wasn't just tour guys. It was celebrities and high profile amateurs, colleges, you know, all that kind of stuff. So now we have not only we have a tour department that's you know,
six or seven deep. Now we also have a player development department where all of our college kids are getting served and and all that, and and the player developmental handle some of the developmental tours and some of the smaller tours overseas. And stuff like that. But yeah, I mean we've got a bunch of players on every major tour. I mean last year we had we had two senior major wins last years, you know, Senior US Open and the Senior PGA Championship, both by Richard Bland.
But he actually used two different putters.
One when the Senior PGA with A with the MES max and then won the Senior US Open with the DF two point one. And so after that, you know, the champions.
Tour guys, you know, those poor guys don't get a lot of support.
You know, the OEMs, don't don't hang out a lot out there on their on their tours, and so they're always so happy to see us, and we're so happy to see them. I mean, they're they're a lot of those guys are to stage in their career where putting is not their favorite part of the game and uh, you know, so to get the feedback from them that you know, makes them feel a little less twitchy is really fun.
So with the success that you're having, I've got a leave there are well, and I've seen at least p XG people are coming out with zero torque putters, which is going right after you, right, I mean, that's exactly what you've been claiming all along, is there's no torque in these putters. Here's my revealer and this buttter is just staying online the entire time. What's going on with that? How many copycats and how close are they to being truly copies of what you're doing?
How many?
I'm not sure, I mean one of one of the so from the big companies or bigger companies. Odysseys got their square to square line, bet Nardi has their antidote line.
P XG came out with the Allen even Rolls got their zero line, and.
You know, they're all they're all good, like they're all like the coolest thing about it is like, you know, all these companies now just basically said, turns out Lab wasn't selling snake oil.
Turns out this technology works. You know, they they they they validated us, which has been so nice, like and you know, and.
You know, now it's a competitive space, right, those zero torque space, and we feel great about where we're at with that. You know, there's still nobody in the in the in the world that can offer the customizations that we do. I think I would imagine the general consumer understands we know a lot more about how to get a putter actually properly balanced, and some of the other ones do. So we're feeling we're feeling really good.
The frustrating part is.
The language being used, you know, and this has you know, been sort of one of the disappointing parts of You're asking before just you know, kind of surprises in the industry. The marketing teams and the R and D teams of these companies do not talk as much as I think
you would think that they might. And so, you know, the marketing team has a job to promote a putter that is being designed specifically to compete with lab and so regardless of what the engineers might be telling them about how the putter works, you're seeing a lot of very misleading language, and you know, and some of these companies that are big enough that they don't have to validate it, they don't have to you know, explain the
science or do whatever. They just say, Hey, this is this new putter, you should buy it, and people do because they've you know, got great reputations and been in the business for years, and.
So that gets a little frustrating.
What's been so cool to see is like is our you know, the support we get from our customers is just incredible. I mean, every time a new company comes out, you know, there's inevitably somebody on that thread talking about you know, sort of the you know differences albeit nuanced, but you know, there's still differences. There are still reasons why our stuff performs better than theirs two despite the claims that it's you know, kind of the same thing.
So yeah, it's been a it's it's been wild.
Like the shift that takes place in like our marketing meetings and the way that we talk about the product has been like it's like a total one eighty, Like all of a sudden, we don't need to talk about whether or not it's a worthwhile technology anymore. Like you know, the big companies just just ended that conversation. So now we get to talk about the differences between what we do and what everybody else is doing.
And that's a lot of fun.
You know, now people get to they're taking a really much closer look at like, oh wow, I mean these guys around you know doing stuff just on a completely different level.
It's fun.
I got to believe that when you first got into this, this, this, and you would walk into an industry room, heads would turn and go, he's not one of us. He doesn't look like us, he doesn't talk like us. Who is this guy? And now you walk in the room, heads turn, going, how do we be like him?
I mean right, They certainly aren't saying that to me, but indicate they're excited about what LAB.
Is doing, and you know, turning heads, oh, for sure, in a very different way. You and you walk in the room, and that's pretty a man.
And that's been interesting to see too.
As you know, some of these other companies are entering the you know, the torque space like.
I appreciate at least a little bit.
The ones that are are you know, sort of at least tipping their caps to us, you know, and recognizing that they're only designing these putters because of what they've seen, you know, Lab Accomplish. The ones that piss me off are the ones that are like out there, you know, packaging our exact same marketing language, pretending like they thought of this themselves. But you know that's just me. I don't actually care. But yes, I mean yeah, we're being
received in a very very different way. On tour and it's you know, I'm not going to the PGA show this year, and I didn't go last year. But you know, my understanding was, Yeah, the vibe was very very different on tour.
I mean this is not an exaggeration.
I mean people literally used to point and laugh at me, like I would look up and I'd see the other bags across the green, you know, and they just never at any time took us seriously in any way. And you know, now I haven't been on tour since the release of all of these competitive putters yet, and I'm gonna be out there in a few weeks. I'll be
you know, interested. But even last year, I mean, people were really starting to be much nicer and you know, complimentary and come up and shake hands with you know, very respectful appreciations for you.
Know, they know like what I mean. Look, I didn't know.
I didn't know how hard it would be, and if I did, I don't know that I would have done it, you know.
And so I think that.
In addition to you know, sort of the respect for the technology that a lot of the the other companies are now exhibiting, I think they also appreciate that, like going from absolutely nobody from nowhere, you know, in you know, the middle of the desert, and a reno to having fifteen percent of the potter market is it's not something you see every day. It just doesn't happen very often. And they've all been at all, you know, really respectful.
That's great, that's great, all right, let's wrap it up with this. I'm a DF three user. I love the DF three. Convince me why I need to move to the OS one.
I'm not gonna, you know, and I'm not and I'm and as a commitment to our consumer too, like I mean, one of the things that has always driven me crazy about the industry, and I find it frankly embarrassing, is the number of companies that come out with technology saying no, no, no, this is better than the one that we just sold you six months ago or a year ago. I'm not going to tell you that it's better. It's definitely different. It has more options to offer you, and those differences
might suit you better. So I can't tell you that for sure you need an odd the DF three might still be, you know, the perfect putter for you. I would definitely encourage you to go try it. See how it feels. See if you like looking at it, see if it sets up a little better. I mean, the technology within our putters is all the same. You're going to you know, the bigger the putter, the more kind
of obvious the technology is going to feel. But for the most part, you're going to have that experience of the putter just kind of doing its own thing with any of our models. So then it comes down to the same stuff as with any other company. Which one do you like looking at, which one do you like aiming, Which one do you like carrying around?
Which one do you want to you know, make your baby. That stuff's up to you.
And so unless we do make you know, an innovation with some of the optionality and options and or you know, customizations and such, I'm not going to tell anybody it's better. I'm just going to say that it's different, and then it is. Uh split'spin. I think it's probably about fifty to fifty now in our within the factory here of DF three users versus OZ users. Whereas when the when the DF three came out, everybody was using it. Uh so just for the ball Scooper, Yeah, that was a
big part of it, for sure. Just this, you know, the little bit more stability in the d F three than the mes, which I think people appreciated, but definitely give it a shot.
I mean, it's it's.
So somebody is coming to lab golf for the first time.
I think I think if somebody's coming to lab Golf for the first time, I think the OZ is absolutely the place to start. From a size standpoint, It's not going to be, you know, some massive departure from from putters you've used in the past. Aesthetically, it's it's, you know, really really clean looking putter. It's not some super space age thing like we've done in the past. And then the the options around feel with the stainless insert you know, it mirrors much more closely that which a lot of
people have used. And so yeah, perfect place to start for a new a new LAB user.
I still can't wait to try one out. Well, dude, listen, It's what's been so fun about this is that I feel like we've become friends as well as well as me being a huge fan. Uh, And I'm do whatever I can to help promote the product. Even I'm doing interviews with people about putting and stuff, and I'm like well, well, how does that work for a lab putter? You know, it's like what you ambushing me?
So yeah, we appreciate your fred.
I mean it's like, you know, I've been talking to this whole time just about how customers and everything have made it all happen. But you know that that includes you. It includes folks like you that you know are in the industry and see what it is that we're doing in the sort of you know, uphill battle that we have to be a relevant player in this industry and couldn't have done it without ch