#62 S3 EP 23 Unmasking Authentic Male Leadership: A Courageous Chat with Michael Jaquith about Rising Above Toxic Masculinity and Fostering Genuine Connections

Ministers are always excited to get into the word of God because in the word of God , he , he , he shapes us and mows us like he does our diamonds , in the perfection of his eyes , absolutely . You know , many times we sit then we try to , you know , fabricate things to make it us self , our self , look good before men when .

But he says you ain't got to look good before men , look good before me come on , I see you . I see you perfect , no matter how or what you've been through in life . He said . I don't make things right . All you got to do is put the word again to continue to be obedient and willing to follow my lead .

I'm gonna just kind of say co-hosts with Michael Brown here , and they're gonna be talking about some men things that I have nothing to do with Amen . I'm just gonna sit back and glean and learn Amen , hallelujah . So , michael , can you say hello to everyone ?

We pray in the name of Jesus , asking you to go with us and God as a leader according to your word , because your word says that you order our steps . We pray in the name of Jesus . You are order our steps according to your will and purpose . We counsel any assignment of the enemy that will be sent back into the picture where it came from .

We pray in the name of Jesus for the ones that said pray for me . We pray in the name of Jesus for even the ones that this has no desire to know who you are . We pray in the name of Jesus .

You are testing right now , from the crown of their head to the soles of their feet , that they will get the revelation that you want them to have , so they can enjoy eternal life in heaven and not damn nation inhale . We pray in the name of Jesus . You just have your way . We ask these things and all things , all in Jesus mighty name .

We say thank you , and we say amen , amen and amen .

He lets you elaborate on that because you know that was that's very , you know , powerful because you know we , we got to understand that . You know , when we , as men , lead , it can't be full of toxic .

We have literally a Supreme Court justice who seems unable to answer that latter question , and so , in this time , I think there's a great deal of confusion and a great deal of sensitivity . So I think we need to start this conversation by first saying that when we talk about male leadership , we don't talk in any way to diminish the dignity of women .

As Christians , we believe that men and women are created in equal dignity but are very , very different from one another , and whether it's also the obvious ways like plumbing , or only slightly less obvious ways that we start to talk , psychologically and emotionally , and even spiritually , the differences between men and women are profound and are far greater than our

society wants to acknowledge . So , that said , let's dive on into some of the unique ways that men are called specifically to leadership . And well , a lot of listeners may not like this , and so please , dear listener , just hold a little bit of patience as

I say this . There is a reality that in the Christian view of life , the man is the head of the marriage and the man is called in a special way to lead the family . And at first that may strike you like , oh why ? Patriarchy ? Blah , blah , blah . And I would invite you to slow down a little bit .

Let's take a look at the infamous first of chapter Ephesians 5 , which so many women get so upset about because they listen that first bit , which is wives be submissive to your husband , and they get all grumpy . And the men , while they're sitting in church , look over their wives the kind of grin and point to you listen , honey , you listen , that's right .

That's right , guys . If you want them to listen to that , you got to listen . What comes next ? Because what comes next is way harder . When Paul writes to men and husbands love your wives , as Christ loved the church . Well , that makes the question how did Christ love the church ? Oh wait , you know what happened on Good Friday .

You had a picture of that whole journey . That's how Christ loved the church and that's how men are being called to love their wives . And so when I invite men to the leadership , the framework by which we start this discussion is in the way that Christ loved the church in the way of self-sacrificial love becoming the basis of leadership .

It's undeniable that Christ leads the church . You see how he leads the disciples . He leaves all of his followers , he leaves us still to this day , but he does it from the sacrificial starting point .

And when we look at the toxicity , the toxicity of this world comes from sin and the ruler of sin and we're gonna I must speak very directly about the devil , because he's a real entity . He has a real desire to cause chaos into literally damn souls , and so the toxicity comes from this idea of sin .

And as a man , one of the greatest toxicities I can bring into my leadership is my ego and my pride . And when I fail to love as Christ loved the church , I leave myself open to the sinful approach of ego , the sinful approach of pride , and what our world now calls toxicity .

I call it's another word for the age-old battle who is between my heart and the tempter . Does that make sense ? Is that kind of set the stage a little bit ?

Okay , that does not mean that we can go out there and demand our wives , our spouses , our girlfriend or what have you , in doing things to benefit us , because we understand that you know the things , and this goes across the board to every believer , every Christian , that we are held to an accountability for the things that we know .

So , with that being said , you know we got to understand that when we try to go out and demand our wives , our spouses , girlfriends , what have you to do things we got to understand the things that we tell them to do we're going to have to be held accountable for those things .

So we're telling our wives you know , to do this and do that , and it does not line up with the Word of God . If they do it , they're going to get in trouble . If we tell them to do it , we're going to get in trouble , just like Adam and Eve . Okay , adam was told not to eat from the forbidden fruit , but Eve went and did it . And what did he do ?

He went and turned around and ate it . God simply said look , I did not tell her not to do it , I told you not to do it . So we got to understand that , look , we are all held accountable , whether we do it or we turn it to do it .

Not only is Adam , like you know , just blaming Eve , he's totally advocating all leadership , as he stands there watching this transaction go down , knowing it's not exactly the opposite of what God said , and he does nothing and he is held accountable for that as well .

And exactly what Michael is saying here , dear listener , is that as a man , you are held accountable first and foremost . With that , you know , I'll say , mixed blessing and leadership and headship , comes the responsibility , the accountability . God will ask you how did you manage that which I gave you ? How have you lucked ?

You know an article that you had put on your website and if I can just briefly read it and I want to ask your question about it , it says although we regularly listen to the Bible verses calling me into leadership , most of us don't really know what that means it says .

Furthermore , our culture is shoving the idea of toxic masculinity down our throats every chance we get . You know what would be your word to the diamond's list and you know whether it be signs or things that look warning signs so you can look out for if that's happened .

Now , men , if you are married , you probably will be able to , you know , imagine this following scenario Imagine there's a disagreement between you and your wife and your wife says some words that sound to your ears like an accusation . Now , maybe , if you haven't experienced this , but that a lot of you have .

And when we men hear this accusation , this moment comes up and we go down one of two paths and either we take this accusation personally , we become upset as well , our pride is poked , we become defensive , we start to go well , is that so what ?

You don't really blah , blah , blah and furthermore , blah , blah , blah , we go into this defensive mode and , dear brother , listener , I invite you to consider that . That is the toxicity right there , that is the internal toxicity , that is the pride . And my invitation to you is how did Christ love when he was accused ? Unconditional love .

He did not defend himself . In fact , rubino Isaiah , like he did not open himself , did not even open his mouth , he's led to the slaughter .

And men , this is what we're called to . This is what a self-entitled male leadership means . It means your wife may say words very strongly , with a lot of emotion . That sounds very mean to your ears , that sounds very much like an accusation . And you don't get to dive into the fray , you just don't .

You're not allowed to have a big , strong , defensive , pride-based feeling response , but instead you're called to follow Christ , to be humble , to acknowledge that , hey , there's probably some piece in that accusation that actually is true Maybe not all of it , but some piece of it is .

And that surrender , that meekness that comes when we oh , it's hard , it's hard , you know , when you're in that fight , in that mobile , when we set aside that sense of justice and embrace humility , embrace love , learn how to love your wife through that moment , when you're not sure what to do with these words that she said , that feel so wrong and emotionally

powerful to you . But , dear brother , let me make a claim to you that every time a man indulges in a strong negative emotion , his life goes down to toilet , and with a husband , how many times have you reacted defensively in this moment and had it work out well ? My guess is that number is zero .

And this is part of the reality about why the Scripture teaches this way .

It teaches us , it invites us , it challenges us men to respond in life to our wives , to our families , even to our community , the way that Christ respond to the church , the way that Adam failed to respond to protect Eve and I'm going to note out many more examples that will come up .

And there's this theme through the Bible , that authentic , christ-like male leadership is characterized by the sacrifice of the perceived sense of justice in exchange for love of the other . Does that make sense , michael ?

We sit there and we wonder why , when we get into these arguments and it seems kind of harsh we had to understand that when Adam , when God created Eve from Adam , he took a bone from Adam , the rib , and from the teachers that I was raised up on , in growing up in life and as being a Christian , I understand that the rib that came out of Adam to make

Eve , it was a part of our how would I say , the I wouldn't say the phenom side , but I would say the more of the heaven , the more of the heaven or the strongest one . The strongest one , but I was looking more of the compassion side .

That's where all of our emotions and our feelings and stuff like that comes into play , and I would definitely say that I think the reason us men , we had this sense of being offensive when it comes to that is the fact that we grow up thinking that nothing can hurt us and we sit there and we try to be puffed up and big and bad , saying that no matter

what comes at me , I can handle it , but the moment that something comes at us , it's always like we reflect back and we hide ourselves in a corner of getting hurt . That's why I think , so many men , that we pull ourselves away from an uncomfortable situation instead of sitting there and going at it with the love that we've been taught to do .

The head would mean she was superior , not from the foot , that means she would be in fear , but from the rib means she's equal . But the rib also protects and covers the heart , and so it's really saying that the woman has this unique access right to the heart of man .

And this ties into what you're saying here about how we men think we can't be hurt , and so because of this , we develop , actually ironically , instead of a confidence , it's a fear , and it's a fear of failure . And it's a fear that says , well , I can't be hurt , because if I'm hurt I might not be enough , I might be a failure .

And that fear is so powerful that it leads us down the road of all sorts of terrible decisions . But understand that your wife has the ability to penetrate your heart , literally coming directly from that rib , in a way that you're not ready for prior to marriage .

Like let's be honest here , we , as young boys , we love our mothers , but at some point in time we separate and move away from mothers and we respect our fathers . But there's a separation there . There's a man to man Like . There's a different sort of relationship there . But our wives come in to have this unique access .

And so as long as I as a man am under this delusion , this fear that I'm not able to be hurt , I become armored in a way that causes me to be defensive , that causes me to react harshly and strongly . And it's only when we open ourselves up to the possibility of actually being hurt and acknowledged that's okay . Christ was hurt .

I mean , look at what Christ went through . Even before Good Friday . He was hurt emotionally repeatedly throughout the entire gospel . Everyone's treating Christ unfairly and he leans into that and he doesn't say oh no , I'm a failure because someone rejected me .

I'm a failure because my church that I'm literally pouring my blood out upon the ground has all run away and of my 12 apostles , one of them betrayed me , one of them denied me directly to everyone else , and the other ones are all fled , except for John down here who shows up at the bitter end . Thanks , john , at least for the honorable mention .

No , he loves them still . He leans into that pain and by leaning into that pain , into that rejection , allows it to become even greater source of healing , even greater source of love to share and to shape those that he loves . So let's make this real , practical here .

You are a man and you are married , or maybe even considering marriage , and this woman that you made this vow to just hurt you and you have a choice . You can choose to respond defensively or you can choose to accept that the hurt doesn't mean what a piece of you is afraid .

It does mean you choose to accept it in the context of your Christian calling , in your identity as a beloved , adopted son of God , and that , as powerful a relationship as this one is , it can't touch that identity .

And when we as men ground ourselves not in our success or failures here , but in the love of God , the Father , and the relationship we have with Jesus Christ , our Lord , it gives us the capacity to take this pain that comes from someone that we love and turn around and respond in love . Does that make sense ?

So if you sit there and you think that that you'll never overcome the situation that you go through , that's what it's gonna be . You're not gonna overcome it . But the moment that you say I'm gonna work this process out I'm a loud guy to use me and do it the process can begin . And that's why I think , as so many , was wrong with this world today .

As men , we sit there and we try to sugarcoat things and put things in the perspective like nothing gonna hurt me . I'm big , I'm bad and no matter what comes at me , if it looks like it's gonna be bad , I'm gonna run away from it .

But see , we gotta understand that when things come at us in life , either it's through our marriage life or as a male role model , as a parent , whether it's biological or physical . We gotta understand that God put us in a predicament , in a place for us to grow . He's not gonna put on us any more than we can bear . So we gotta understand that .

You look everything that goes on in life . We gotta understand that it's gonna work out for our good .

feed off a different fuel for growing than we do as men , and men need to be challenged . They need someone to come up to them and hold up an ideal on the standard , an invitation to responsibility , that our wives just biologically don't work the same way .

This is analogous to their body running off of estrogen and progesterone , where our bodies run off testosterone . I'm not saying one's better or one's worse . I'm saying they're different .

And , as a man , we need to understand what that difference means , that we live in what I would call a hyperfeminized culture , and the general bread and butter encouragement to growth our culture offers us is praise , and praise is great . I'm not speaking poorly of praise , but it's the wrong fuel to call men to grow .

And we'll come back to the first Proverbs , but another great Proverbs I love is in Proverbs 27 , which many of you have heard is iron sharpens iron . So one man sharpens another , but probably haven't really thought about how does iron sharpen iron . Imagine your head right now . The process You've got two pieces of iron . You want to sharpen them .

What are you doing with them ? You're rubbing them together . Cool , well , a little bit of light rubbing . That doesn't do anything . You just have like a scratched iron . You want sharp iron . What do you do with it ? You have to rub it a whole lot harder and faster . You give a spinning wheel set up and a press with a force into it .

All of a sudden that iron's not so chill anymore , it's pretty hot , it's sparkling , and the process of iron sharpening iron is painful . You're literally burning away pieces of the iron that were in the way of it becoming sharp , and this is the challenge process that men have to go through to find growth .

If we tie this into the previous Proverbs , I'm pulling a blank right on the chapter , but , as a man , think it understand .

That's a statement of calling to responsibility , because when God gives us a gift and he's given us a great gift in our capacity to think and to create , and , exactly as you said , this is not just a mere minor creation , like some piece of artistry . This is the power to define who I am in a very practical way as it touches the world .

And if you doubt this , look at the statistics about what happens with what fathers say to their children and what the children become . The connection is overwhelming . In fact , it's even so silly , as I read a study the other day where a lady was talking if she praised her flowers , the flowers bloomed . If she cursed them , they died off .

We have this tremendous power as human beings to create with our thought and with our word , and we abuse that power when we don't use it intentionally . And so this is where it's

all ties together . If you're not being challenged in a way to grow to better use this God-given power , then you'll be held accountable for that too . And that , if you slow down , think about it as a terrifying notion . Yeah .

And if we continue to provoke the women of our lives , we got to understand when we provoke the women of our lives , we pretty much provoke in God into doing something that's far beyond what we want Him to do . And you know it .

And there's a lot of reasons why we don't have time to dive into this and this and beautiful teachings by various theologians about this sort of topic .

But in summary version , my claim to you is if you're a husband , your wife is allowed to express herself emotionally and potentially even provocatively , as she stumbles through all of her diverse range of feelings , and maybe the words come out wrong and maybe they come out hurtful , and that's actually okay .

But the reverse is not , and this ties into what you're saying . As men , it's a different standard . We cannot just provoke our wives , cannot just unleash harshly with our words , because we are in essence called to be manly , to be orderly , to be stability .

If I go back to the ancient mystics , the idea that the masculine is order and the feminine is chaos and please understand this is in no way a slight either one . Both those two are absolutely essential to a healthy society and how they interact is extremely complex . But the masculine we call to order this .

This ties into this idea of the husband needs to be the rock for the family , the rock that can endure the storms , provide stability , provide safety , provide certainty , provide direction , and that the wife natural is to be the chaos which ever renews and ever reinvigorates and brings life and brings meaning and brings purpose , but always is in the context that the

two need each other and she needs his stability in the same way that he needs her chaos and her , her newness of life . And as a man in marriage , if you're called to be that rock , if you're called to be that sacrificial love of Christ , you don't get to just unload on your wife . It's not symmetric , it is . Some people might call it a double standard .

I would call it a deeper understanding of the nature of the genders .

We got to understand that when we , as men , we are designed to be the rock for our wives , be the rock for our family , and we had to understand to that and when a hint you made in here about being , you know , loving them unconditionally , we had to understand that , look , no matter if she's being unfair or unjust in our eyes , like we had to understand

that we are also calmly unfair and unjust . And that was very , that was very profound .

That , you know , that was very profound with what I read , because you know it gives me a thinking OK , here we are , we saying that , that she's not doing what you think she's supposed to be doing , but at times we got to understand are we , as men , doing what we're designed and supposed to do ?

The parable that comes to mind is the parable of the unforgiving servant , and I want to use an older translation of the text because I think the numbers matter . And in this this is a parable where the servant goes to the master and he owes the master 10,000 talents .

Some translations say a great amount , but I'm going to say with 10,000 talents , because a talent is about 200 pounds of gold in the old measure and 10,000 was literally the biggest number the ancients had . And so they're saying that this servant owed the master the largest possible amount of money that they could even put towards that big . All right .

And the master forgives him and he goes off and the fellow servant's brought up and owes him 50 denarii denarii as a day's wage . This is a relatively easy debt to pay . It's a little bit less than two months' pay . That's doable . And he reacts poorly . And when the and he says no , no , no , I want to be paid , send him to jail until I get paid .

So the master becomes enraged and calls the first servant back in . And when the first servant appears , this is really critical , the heart of the story . The master does not say your math was wrong . It wasn't 50 , it was way less . And so I'm at it . You got your math wrong . He doesn't say your accounting was wrong .

The master acknowledges the validity of the second debt . It's a real debt . He's not arguing about that . He nearly places it in context to what he has been forgiven . And this is my invitation to you as a man . You may be right that your wife has a debt to you . Okay , congratulations . You correctly identified a mathematical equation .

However , let me put some more math in front of your face . The debt that your wife owes to you is the tiniest pittance compared to the debt that you owe to our Lord and Savior , jesus Christ .

And if you want to get all up and worked up over whatever little tiny debt she owes to you , beware , because our Lord has promised us that if we do not forgive , we will not be forgiven . And that little tiny debt . By comparison to what you owe the Lord is utterly nothing , and so you may be totally right , but she's not wrong .

You may not be , I don't know . But forgive anyways , let it go anyways , because literally your very salvation rides on that decision , your ability to be forgiven yourself . And trust me , you need it , so do I .

I am terrified at times when I think in my history when I've fought for justice and a fairness and realized what I was risking with my Lord and Savior .

So , with that being said , what would be your final words to men and women ?

We have the average person , in the words of Henry David Thoreau , lives a life of quiet desperation . And here's the real truth about this .

We are in what I believe to be a great psychological pandemic of loneliness and quiet despair , and the reason why we're in this place is we have abandoned the core message of the gospel in exchange for the marvels of technology . Hey look , I love technology . It is such a blessing I could talk to you right now through this cool piece of technology .

It's awesome , but it's no substitute for the deeper connection you were designed to enter into , the dynamics of a relationship one type of relationship with people of the same gender and a radically different type of relationship with one person of the other gender .

And understanding the nature of this relationship and , bluntly , the way that we've ignored both those two is one of the root causes of why we are so alone , and I would guess that the majority of your listeners in the last month have experienced a profound loneliness somewhere in their life , and I want to invite all of you , first off , men to find men friends

and women to find women friends . Understand , we get something from our same gender that we cannot get from the other gender . I do not mean sexually in the slightest bit .

There's a dynamic , there's a encouragement , there's a fueling , there's a friendship type that comes from me talking to a man that I cannot get from me talking to a woman , no matter , no fault of her own . It's just the wrong type of connection , if you will .

And so I encourage you to really invest the time into what I call real friendship , real connection , and you do this through vulnerability , through intimacy . This means I go up to my male friends . I'll tell you a very short story .

This weekend after church , there was a man named Matthew , and Matthew and I are very close friends and we are intimate in regards to what we're struggling with in life . And I said , matthew , I'm really struggling right now with the piece of my marriage , and I described what's going on .

He listened attentively and he said , michael , this is where you're failing to show up as a man . You need to step it up here .

I said , yeah , you're right , I think I needed to hear that and no woman can come in and say that in the same way that Matthew said that to me , and it wasn't easy the area to say , but it is essential and because here's what happens in this brief moment .

It sounds so simple , it sounds so short , but number one , I get challenged in a way that I need Number two , I realize I'm not alone . Somebody else sees me , somebody else understands the plight . Matthew understood what was going on in that situation .

He understood the pain on the situation that I was experiencing and he still loved me enough to challenge me through it . And in that moment I'm no longer alone . There's one other soul who sees who I am , what my struggles are , and still loves me through them .

And the form of this masculine love is through this challenge towards picking responsibility and moving into a deeper Christ-like love . And , dear listener , if you are alone , take action .

Find someone that you can , even if it's just one person although the great thing about friendship , love , is that you can have more than one , but one person who can really share . Here's what I'm really struggling with . I'm pissed off about this thing that my spouse did . I'm really frustrated with this ask of my kids and I don't know what to do .

I'm really torn about this thing that happened at work and I don't know how to be a Christian . Well , I'm responding in a Christ-like manner , but my boss did this horrible thing right . We share it in a real intimate , vulnerable way and they share as well , and that dynamic is directly called for in the gospel and it's something that we modernists have lost .

And whatever form you need it in . And if it's a bigger issue , if you can't find someone , consider coaching . There's a number of great Christian coaches out there that are rising to fill this . But start with just as guilty of men in your church .

Or if you're a woman , go to the woman in your church and say look , I want something deeper , I want something better , I want a real connection here . Is that something you're even interested in ?

Let me try to investigate and see what I can do to help them .

If you're a wife and you say , oh , my husband needs other men , amen , a gold star right there for that realization . But you also need to realize he's not perfect . The first time he goes out he says , well , I'm going to try this . I have invited Bob down the way to go to the bar . I'm sure he'll be here and try to talk .

He may come back and say all Bob wants to do is talk about the sports and the weather and encourage him . Anyways , realize this is hard . Our culture now does not reward this , does not teach this and oftentimes does not even recognize what this concept is that we're talking about here .

And so , both for men and for women , it's hard to form these sort of friendships . It takes time , it takes space . Men , volunteer to watch your children for three hours . Let your wife go out and hang out with ladies , just do it . It's not hard . A number of men I know that are like I can't watch the kids .

I'm going to reach to the digital zoo and slap them upside the head and say dude , you're kids , take care of us . It's not hard . Why about poopy diaper ? Already Put a bowl of gruel in front of them , put some sugar on top and they'll eat it . It's all good , it works . We'll talk about health as you get older , but let's start with the basics here .

It's just . It's sad to me that spouses don't give this gift to their spouse of saying you need some time away from these ruggards that try to destroy every part of your life , because that's what kids do they're taming the barbarians . Go , go , go see some ladies if you're a lady . Go see , spend some time with some men if you're a man .

That's what we need in . Scripture points to it so clearly .

Thank you for just allowing us to get a closer in depth look of what it means to be a man in life . We pray in the name of Jesus . You'll continue to make us and mold us into the man and woman of God that you are called us to be . We pray in the name of Jesus . You just have your work in us that will be willing to let you move in it .

We pray in the name of Jesus that anyone does not know you as a Lord and savior . We just simply cry out to you what must I do to be saved ? We pray in the name of Jesus . Have your way In Jesus Christ's name . We do pray , we say thank you and we say man , amen and amen .