The Secrets We Keep w/ Michael Slepian

teach me? Why are you? In my mind, I want to be the person who has cancer and doesn't run a marathon, Like, do I have to work that hard? No, it's the best excuse not to run a marathon. Welcome to go, Ask Allie. I'm Alli Wentworth and I have a secret. Did I get your attention? That's right, because secrets are enticing. But the question is are they good for us? Are they bad for us? We all keep secrets, We've all told secrets. Do you feel bad about a secret?

Are there any secrets you take to your grave? There's just so many secrets, So what is the science behind secrets? Well, my guest can tell us all these things and probably divulge a few secrets of his own. Michael Slappian is an Associate professor of Leadership and Ethics at Columbia University. As a leading expert on the psychology of secrets, he is a recipient of the Rising Star Award from the Association for Psychological Science. Slappian has authored more than fifty

articles on secrecy, truth and deception. His research has been covered by The New York Times, The Atlantic, The New Yorker, The Economist, The Wall Street Journal, the BBC, NPR, and more. Hi, Hey, Michael Slappian, how are you the secret? Life of Secrets? So? First of all, it's the most compelling title in the world, because you know, secrets are enticing, terrifying, being somewhat delicious, depending on what it is. Tell me, what is so

compelling to you about secrets? Why write a book about them? We all keep secrets, and for most of those secrets, we really don't talk about them, and so we really don't have a good understanding of our own secrets. We certainly don't have a good understanding of how secrets affect us. There's also a lot of misconceptions, including in the academic set of things, about what secrecy even is, and so

it doesn't have to be shrouded in mystery. We can learn about how our secrets affect us because it will help us better cope with them and help us better decide what to do with these secrets. So I think we should just jump in with the basics, which we kind of need for context. What is a secret? I define secrecy as an intention to withhold information from one or more people, and the information is the secret. And so there's plenty of things that about you that other

people don't know that or not secret. What makes one of those things a secret is you intend to withhold that information from at least one person. So tell me a little bit about the difference besides the obvious, between a big secret and a small secret. Yeah, So I think when a secret seems small, it feels like the detail is not very significant. Whether that's not significant to

us or not significant to the other person. Um that there's no huge problem with keeping that kind of thing a secret when we start thinking about big secrets, if it feels big to you, then to me it indicates perhaps is something you need help with or something that you're not sure about, or it seems like a major event and it's creating some kind of problem for you

that you're trying to work through. Um. For a secret to be big, it has to feel like there's something to do or there's something to figure out, you know. I think to me, indicates there's there's some work to do, whereas a small secret, you know, I don't really need help with it. But this is just this little thing I keep to myself. And nothing is harder than living

with the secret that can't be spoken. UM. And I love how you talk about Tony Soprano in the book, because I mean, he's such an iconic figure and you know the idea of him having so many secrets that caused him anxiety and depression, which leads him to therapy, which is also a secret. And I'm I'm sort of always fascinated by trauma and anxiety and depression, and I think that secrets have many, many roots to all three

of those. And I you know, so many novels and films have been written and made about the person that find finds out they're not who they thought they were. And that is a secret that when it's revealed, have huge consequences. The kind of secrets that completely implode your life. I'll draw on my personal experience here. Um. I and I started the book Revealing this secret as well. UM

almost ten years ago. Now, I was just starting at my secrecy research and I was actually on the job interview this day and I was presenting this new research on secrecy. And as the day was winding down, I got a call from my dad which I didn't pick up. And then I got another call from my dad and I said, oh, no, something bad has happened. And he then goes on to tell me when I eventually got him on the phone later that night, where it's like after midnight at this point, he says, Michael, I have

something to tell you. I'm not biologically able to have children. I am not your biological father, is what he was saying. And for me, of course, I mean for anyone, that's going to be shocking to learn just you know, you have these assumptions and to have them up ended can be a lot. But I think for me in particular, what was really shocking about that wasn't the new information. As shocking as that was, I kind of readily accepted that.

I thought, well, you know, the relationships that matter most to me, a lot of them are not based in genetics, and so what does that matter whether I share jeans with a parent or not. But it was the secret keeping that really shook me, or that really shifted the ground under my feet, because you know, this is a secret my parents have been keeping for me my whole life.

I was in my twenties at that point, for for more than two decades, and you know they planned on never telling me about and our entire family knew except for me and my younger brother. And so I think when you get that, when you learn that kind of thing, I could totally shake up everything my my younger brother was. You know, it made it less shut about a lot of things, whereas for me, it kind of made me

more sure about certain things. And so I think those kinds of big secrets certainly cause you pause and start asking questions that you might not have asked before. But it's interesting that you say it wasn't so much the concrete fact, but the secrecy of it. And I'm from a family of a lot of secrets, and I when I read your book, I really paused because I thought,

I think that's absolutely true. It's what is so painful is not the fact, and Look, we can put it into infidelity, because there was a lot of infidelity in my upbringing. And it wasn't so much the fact that you know, you did leave mom for this woman, but the fact that you were with this woman for two years and you know it was a secret, and it was it was something you were withholding from your children. And so to me, it's the repercussions of the secret.

So you know, and I think you say in your book that one can be weighted down by secrets, then I think that there are families that are so steeped in secrets that everybody is weighted down, which brings me back to it leads to anxiety and depression and alcoholism and addiction. Um. Talk about the three dimensions of secrets. So in in my research, one of the very first things to do was to figure out what are the secrets people commonly keep? How many secrets do people commonly keep?

When I started this research, you know, about ten years ago. Now, that was a question no person had ever asked before, which is crazy, um. And the reason why psychologists had yet to ask that question was simply because when psychologists before me studied secrecy, they have a very specific situation in mind, one person interacting with another person and that person asking you questions related to your secret, and that's

what they saw secrecy as. And the reason why that's problematic is that that's just one moment of a secret, and in fact, we don't often have to hide our secrets, and our secrets exist before those moments, and they exist afterwards too. And so because prior researchers were creating these secrecy situations in the lab, they weren't looking at people's

real secrets. And so the first question was, now, if we're gonna look at people's real secrets, which is what we're trying to understand, what what are the secrets people keep?

And from asking a couple thousand people, we arrived at these thirty eight common categories of secrets and includes all the things you think would be on that list, issues around sex, drugs, relationships, ambitions, and fidelity involving school work, abortion, um self harm, harming another person, telling a lie, violating another's trust, and so all use that in my research to essentially look at a person's whole set of secrets, because when you look at only one secret at a time,

you can ask, is this secret bad? Or good for you. But you can't get at the question of which of your secrets hurt you and why until you start looking at a person's whole set of secrets. And so that's what I do in my research. Now, if you were wanted to ask me of these thirty eight categories, which secrets are more harmful than others, these dimensions come into play, and what we can see is that people naturally think

about their secrets as varying along three dimensions. The first dimension is how immoral the secret is, and so the more immoral you think your secret is the behavior in question, the more you feel ashamed of that secret. Um. Infidelity, of course, is for an example of the secret people see us immoral um. The next dimension is how much does the secret involved with other people? Some secrets very much involved other people, any secret about romance or sex,

for example, very highly relational. Some secrets involved no other people and just involve yourself only. And so a secret that seems only where related to yourself feels very individual, feels very personal um and also as secrets that we find most isolating. And then the third dimension is how much the secret involves your goals? Right, you know your aspirations, and so that often involves, for example, the workplace, career

goals and so on. So secrets about work, secrets about money are really high on this dimension, where secrets really low on this dimension aren't oriented towards specific goals at all, but are more sort of based in feeling. Um, what's useful about knowing that these are three dimensions that people primarily experience their secrets by is it means there's three

ways in which a secret can hurt you. And what's so useful about knowing that If there's three ways in which a secret can hurt you, there's also three ways in which a secret doesn't have to hurt you. And the good news is that in all situations, and what we see in the research is that there is one of the dimensions of those three you say is not

hurting you. And what I do is help people figure out what dimension that is because it points you to your path forward to better coping knowing how your secret isn't hurting you, right, And I believe you in your book you said that being weighted down by secrets. You use the example of Pablo ascar Bar hiding all his money in all the cracks and the walls, which I sort of love that as a visual because when you are bogged down by a lot of secrets, you are

tucking them into your consciousness everywhere. There's a lot more to come after the short break and we're back. So let me ask you this. When somebody says to you, Hey, Michael, can you keep a secret? How do you answer that? Yeah? I mean, if someone is saying that to me, it indicates that they have something really interesting that they want to talk about. That's one reason for gossip, if we want to call it that. But also they might be

asking for help. And so if someone ever says that to me, and I'm like, well, yes I can, um, I can help if that's what you want. And I can listen to hear what you have to say if that's that's all you want too. So is it curious that when people say, hey, Ali, can you keep a secret? I always answer it depends because I have found and you you talk about this in your book that sometimes I have been blessed or cursed with someone else's secret and I don't want that secret. I don't want to

hold it, I don't want to think about it. I don't even want to know it, and my mother used to always say to me, if you don't want anybody to know your secrets, don't tell anybody. You've heard all the children's lyrics about secret secrets are no fun unless you share them with everyone. But there is an impulse in human beings to tell secrets. Why do you think

that is? What is the psychology of needing to tell somebody? Yeah? So, so there's a class of situations where it's like you need help, and it's really hard to work on something that you're struggling with if you're entirely alone with that thing. And I one reason why people want to reveal their secrets as they want to hear how people respond to them, whether it's validating your experience or giving you advice on

what to do differently. But on an even more fundamental level, I think the reason we so often want to talk about our secrets with others, reveal our secrets to others, is we just don't want to be alone with them. You know, it's hard to have something in your head and to not talk about it with any people. That feels lonely or it feels isolating, and we don't want to be alone with our thoughts. I think that's what, at the end of the day, makes partly why secrecy

is are difficult. So why would people, for example, uh, tell secrets about infidelity? That's one of the ones on your list. Yeah, I've never been unfaithful to my husband, but if I was, there is no way I would tell anybody for risk of it coming out or him finding out. But I have found that people seem to tell their infidel all these two friends a lot. And I don't know if it's what you just said before that they need validation of it. But you know, I

can't help. But sometimes think do they want to be caught? I mean, why are you telling me this secret? And how do I now sit across from your spouse at a dinner party? But but my first thing is why are you telling me this? I really think it's even in that example, is this this thing that did happen? It did happen. You do have to find a way forward, even if just by yourself, if if the decision is to never reveal this to your partner, Um, it feels

good to just admit to someone that had happened. I think again, it's just it's hard to be entirely alone with something. You talk about confessing and confiding, and you know, there's a whole structure built around, particularly the Catholic Church, which is all about confessing and confiding and the idea of relief seeing a secret that way in a safe place, which I would also say therapy can be too. Um. Is there a psychological release when you're able to confide,

when you're able to confess. Yeah. So the way I distinguished confession and confiding is, Um, if you reveal a secret to the person you're keeping it from, I call that confession. If you reveal a secret to someone else, I call that confiding. And so in terms of confessing, sometimes that can be very complicated whether that's the right decision, and fidelity is are you know we've already been talking about is a great example, Um, confessing this to this

destroy your relationship. And so especially if you're trying to decide whether it confess something, I think a good strategy is often to talk to someone else about it to be sure that you've made the right decision here. And that's what I call confiding, talking to someone that you're not specifically intending to hold that information from. And the

average experience people have with confiding is very helpful one. UM. People feel like they get a lot out of those conversations that it's And so what's helpful about confiding is not just saying it out loud. UM, is not just releasing your secret out into the world. It's that the person responds and their research shows our research shows that

people respond in helpful ways. Maybe they give you advice, maybe they give you emotional support, and maybe it's just sympathy and they're like, that sucks, I'm so sorry that you're dealing with that. Even that is really helpful to just make you feel that you're not aline with this, that you that that this is a tough situation, and and that there is paths forward. UM. Maybe one reason why people get so much out of confiding as they choose the right people to confide in. UM. But even

a lukewarm response people find helpful. Only very negative responses lead people to feel like confiding backfires and they're really rare. Again, maybe because people choose the right people. UM. The other day, a friend of mine said to do you think that

you will die holding onto any secrets? And I said, I think there's probably two secrets I will die with And I was thinking about afterwards, why why, And I think that they're they're just embarrassing or shameful, like there's no good or bad that would come out of telling them. And I think that's got to be the sort of bottom line of most of those secrets. You know that

it's shame on some level. Yeah, when it's something that you feel ashamed with, if it's something that makes you feel bad about yourself, it's very natural to imagine that if you don't reveal it to people, that's better because once people learn these things, then they're permanently out there and you don't have control over them, and people might

draw the wrong conclusions. But I think talking about it with some person, any person could be a therapist, could be a bartender it you know, it could be like a taxi driver ry right. Um, When we choose to be entirely alone with something, we often don't develop healthy ways of thinking about that thing. It's actually all too easy to find unhealthy ways of thinking about that thing, and that's hard to temper. That's hard to mitigate those harms on your own because you're really locked into your

own perspective. It's really hard to find a way out of that alone. You can try you can try journaling, and that can help if you do it in a way that challenges counterproductive ways of thinking. But that's really easy to achieve in a conversation with anyone, um, someone who you think could just be a sounding board or someone who actually might respond with helpful advice, and you know, maybe they have to be far removed from everything. That's what it takes. I know, with like anxiety, holding in

anxiety can can cause all kinds of physical problems. Has there been any studies about you know, holding secrets causing cancer or any kind of internal damage because it's the act of suppression or secrecy, yes, um, but it's often not because of the suppression. UM. There's a famous study that was conducted in the nineties on HIV positive men who concealed their sexual orientation, and essentially, the more they concealed their sexual orientation, the more rapid progression of disease, UM,

the more health problems than they even hide sooner. But more recent research suggests that what's so harmful about that situation is not feeling supportive enough to be yourself to reveal yourself in the first place. It's not the hiding, it's it's not feeling able to reveal. It is the problem.

And so having a secret is not harmful in itself, but having a habit of secret keeping is because the person who habitually keeps secrets as a way to deal with problems is the person who's not working on those problems. So let me ask you about responsibility of being the recipient of confiding or confessing um because in therapy there's doctor confidentiality. But if we were friends, even if we weren't, even if I just sat next to you on a train and I said, you know, I once killed a man.

When somebody reveals one of your quote unquote big secrets, what is your responsibility of the recipient. If the secret is about somebody who's being harmed, or if the secret is hiding some kind of harm that's ongoing, that's a problematic situation, especially if you think about like children or teenagers. If someone asks you to keep a secret on their behalf, if it's about something harmful, that's going to be a problem.

And so I think those are the kind of secrets that you do have some kind of response ability to address in some manner, Whether or not that's telling someone else about it or talking with the person who revealed this to you. If it's about somebody who's being harmed

by this information being contained, you should do something about him. Um, you're right that people can feel burdened by others confessions or being confided and can be a source of burden if now you have to carry the secret on their behalf, or now you have to think about this thing over and over and so especially when you're unloading something heavy on another person, They're going to help you, but recognize your you might be placing a burden on them too.

And then there are the secrets that you've told somebody that are revealed. There's a tremendous fear of telling somebody a secret and having it exposed, which is why I think so many people are tormented and keep so much inside because the risk is too high and in most cases, and it's time for a short break, welcome back to

go ask Alli. I have kids, right, and I think secrets are probably the hardest thing for them because every time I've said to either of my daughters, okay, promised to keep a secret, I know that they're either going to tell each other or tell my husband. So I actually set them up to divulge information because I know if they can't do it. So when you think about the brain itself and cognitive thought and in the maturation

of the brain, can children keep secrets? Yeah, they can, and they get better at it of course the older they get. But even by age three, children will sometimes try to keep secrets not very well. Um, and so they're on their eight track as far as competent secret keeping goods, and their youngest years they might just try to keep a seat by denying it, saying I didn't eat any cookies except for having cookie crumbs on their lips.

But as they get older, not only do they have a better sense of what is the information that only they know about that other people were not witnessed to something, but they also have a better sense of how to keep that information secret. So for example, if they broke a vase, they might say in their younger years and a ghost did it, whereas in their older years they might say the cat did it, which is more believable. So they have a better sense of what to say

or what not to say to keep a secret. All right, So in in context of that, and as an example. One of the things I was thinking about when I was reading your book is what is the difference between a secret and a lie? So secrecy and lying is interesting because they can cross over in two different ways. Um. The most important thing is they're different things. And so there are plenty of times and there are plenty of

secrets that you can keep without telling a lie. UM. So one can ask a question, you could say I don't want to answer that, or you can say I can't tell you that's secret. Um, or you could just say something subtly different as a way answering a question without revealing a secret. So lying is a way to keep a secret, It's not a way I would typically recommend. There's much better ways to keep a secret besides telling something totally untrue. Also, you can keep a lie of secret.

So you said something, You've had some significant moment of saying something that was not true, and you do not want people to learn that you are not being truthful in that moment, you might specifically intend to hold that lie back the truth back. So yes, with children, the secrets are pretty much all small secrets. But then when they get older, in the teenage years and young adult years, secrets become more dangerous, So talk to me about that.

The two differences between younger children keeping secrets and teenagers keeping secrets is, first of all, teenagers can just get into more trouble, into more complicated situations. Um, it doesn't seem that childhood size in discretions, secrets about sort of childhood sized accidents and so on, are are that harmful.

And maybe it's just because it's you know, small potatoes. Um, But teens can get into more trouble, whether it's drug use or you know, driving dangerously or things of that nature, or maybe they're struggling with something at school, or struggling with something relational, or with their friends or identity, right, identity, it's as a huge one and so you know, the struggles are bigger. But also in that shift to adolescents, teenagers become a lot more concerned with how other people

will respond to them. And so as children become older and start shifting into those teenage years, they become way more concerned with saying the wrong thing. You know, they become concerned with social approval. And at that point when teenagers start becoming so concerned with saying the wrong thing and so concerned with social approval that they'll hold something back that they're struggling with. That's when secrecy starts to hurt.

And that's what secrecy looks like in adulthood, to where our fears of being rejected eclipse our ability to place trust in others and to obtain help and support. But you do have a whole section on positive secrets. So maybe I just grew up in a family of infidelity and divorce and all I could think of is a secret is a dark and it's an ominous thing. But so tell us about positive secrets. Positive secrets, as you might be expecting, are quite different from from the other secrets.

And it's not just because they're positive. Um. Some of life's mss J is you know, occasions start off as secret and marriage proposal, of pregnancy that a couple has been trying to make happen, and so you know, a surprise party or some kind of big surprise gift, and the whole point of the secrecy is this big exciting reveal. And so if you're carefully planning out you know, your marriage proposal or you know, the surprise that you're pregnant, um,

because you're carefully planning how that information gets revealed. You feel really in control over that secret, and feeling in control over your life is one of the most fundamental feelings you can have in terms of healthy living. When people feel in control over their lives, they they more effectively cope with life' challenges, they're healthier, they're happier, they live longer, and so positive secrets can tap into this

because we feel so much in control over that. So one thing your book I thought was interesting was the thought that sharing secrets can actually make friends with people. So can you talk to me about that? It's really easy to see the sort of positive social power of secrets and children. If you ask a young child to tell you what a secret is, they might say, it's something you would only share with your best friend. Um. They understand that secrets don't have to be this thing

that we struggle with. It can be this special thing that we share with other people because they're special people in our lives. Um, you know, that's the stuff of

intimate relationships. Making yourself vulnerable revealing something. Um. You know, a child might say a secret is something you can tell your friend and they won't make fun of you, and so you know, when we talk about secrets that were struggling with or that we feel ashamed with, it's really easy to lose sight of this amazing power that these secrets have, where if you reveal it to someone, something you wouldn't just tell anyone. It's this profound act

of intimacy that we can find with our secrets. Is there anything in your research that surprised you? Yes, of something I started doing was saying, you know, look at this list of secrets. Tell me which secrets you're currently keeping from this list, and then when is that secret on your mind? And how much does that secret hurt you?

And because of my original studies looking at how just thinking about a secret can devote a sense of burden, anticipated that having to think about a secret a law on your own time would be related to well being harm and having to hide a secret in conversation with people frequently would also be harmful. That we would find these two different harms, one we could call the sort of mental load and the other one of the sort

of stress of hiding it in conversation. It turns out that the secrets that harm us the most are not the ones we frequently conceal in conversation, it's the ones we frequently think about outside of those conversations. Um, for the most part, it's really actually hard to find harm when it comes to concealing, And that kind of flies in the face of what we used to think about SECRETSY. It turns out that the average secret is just not

difficult to conceal. If you get asked a question related to it, you answer a subtly different question, or you redirect the conversation in another way. UM, all those secrets we don't want people to know about us for the most part that they don't know them. It's a while it's technically not difficult to hide a secret, it turns out it's all the other moments when you're not actively hiding in where there's more room for your secrets to harm you, when you think about on your own time,

that's where the problems often begin. So, as a scientist and professor of secrets, what is the one big thing that you want people to take away after reading your

book about secrets? If there's a secret that's bothering you or upsetting you, or I think you're struggling with, you don't have to reveal it so the person you're keeping it from, although sometimes that's the right choice, but talking about it with another person can just make the world of difference because it turns out you need so little from other people to feel much better, and they have so much to offer when it comes to confiding a secret.

That's fantastic. So now, Michael in my podcast, go ask Ali I. As you know, I've just asked you a million questions, and now that we've reached the end, I allow you to ask me. A question. Can be about anything. Okay, Um, you told me earlier that you'll reveal secrets to your children to sort of test them. I certainly love hearing stories about kids secret keeping if if any come to mind. Oh god, um, yes, let's see. Uh. When they were

little kids, you couldn't tell them anything. You couldn't say like, Okay, we're going to have a cupcake, but you know it's our secret because dinners in half an hour and then you know, giggles, giggles, what's so funny? We had up gigs before, Tony, So I very early on I learned, well, these kids that they're going to divulge anything, So you know, especially if you say to them Okay, this is a secret, or it's a secret between you and me. It became

you know, common knowledge and out three minutes. So um, but thank you Michael. The Secret Life of Secrets, How our inner world shaped well being, relationships and who we are is such a fascinating book on so many levels. So thank you, so much. Thank you. So this is our first mail bag moment of the season, and to go along with our episode about secrets, these are a couple of questions that my listeners are asking me about

my secrets. Hi. Ali is looking fantastic and actually looking younger. Well, thank you. Has she had lasers? Peels and our boats? Oh, we're asking beauty secrets. Okay, here's the secret. I've never had lasers. I'm not exactly sure what that is. I've never had peels. But yes, I have had botox. I don't love it because it hurts, and I'm squeamish about that kind of thing. When I give blood, I pass out, So I don't like needles. I don't love the idea of batuli is um being shot into my body. So yes,

occasionally use botox. I haven't used it in a long time, and I know I should. But thank you for thinking that I look younger. I have to say, I, Um, I'm not somebody that goes oh, I just drink a lot of water. I don't drink any water. I walk a lot. But I'm happy like I'm happy. I love my husband, I love my kids, I love my friends. So sometimes I think where you are in your life can can sort of show up on your face. So

right now it's good. Next question, Hi, Ali, I just want to say I love you to pieces so sweet, love your humor. I do have a question. I'm fifty three years old and I'm starting to see the effects from menopause. My skin is not looking as firm on my face anymore. I just want to know the secret what women are doing to help with that in your fifties. Is it plastic surgery, creams, lotions? I just want to know what I can do to help improve myself through menopause.

Thank you so much, Love you dealing. Okay, Well there's a lot to unpack here. But the great thing about menopause now is that there's so many new brand startups and there's so many women that are creating cream specifically for menopause. So in our show notes, I'm going to give you a couple of links of of places to go to find these lotions and potions um because they really address exactly where we are in our life. And in terms of plastic surgery, I about ten years ago

had my eyes done. Now I had bags under my eyes that were inherited from my father. Anyway, I had something called bluff roplastic where they take the fat from under your eyes out. And I have to say I was very anti plastic surgery. But afterwards, because it was like my Moby Dick, it was something that it just pained me every time I looked in the mirror. I

felt much happier afterwards. So I listen, if there's a little something you can do, whatever it is, even if it's like losing five pounds or buying kind of an expensive oil for your face, do it because it makes you feel good. Thank you for listening. To go ask Alli to learn even more about secrets. Michael's book, The Secret Life of Secrets is out now and you can follow him on Twitter at Michael Sleppian and check out

our show notes for links and other info. Be sure to subscribe, rate and review the podcast, and follow me on social media on Twitter at Ali e Wentworth and on Instagram at the Real Ali Wentworth. Now if you'd like to ask me a question, or suggest a guest, or tell me a secret, I'd love to hear from you, and there's a bunch of ways you can do it. You can call or text me at three to three three six four six three five six, or you can email a voice memo right from your phone to Go

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