The Primal Joys of Nature w/ The Ebony Anglers and Melissa Clark

We go to sleep at ten, we wake up at six, we go to bed at eight, so there are more funny duddies than you. You are the funny duddiest. Yes, welcome to Go ask Alli. I'm Ali Wentworth. Now, before we jump into the most amazing episode of Go Ask Ali ever, guess what. We've been nominated for a Webby Award. It's a People's Choice award, so our people need to

vote for us. That is you please. I'll say more about this at the end of the show, so stay tuned, and there's also info in the show notes, or you can go to the real Alley Wentworth Instagram and click on my bio. Okay, we'll spin your rod and get at your clamming rake, because this is an episode for the books. Everything I love is in this episode of Go ask Alley Fishing and clamming badass women, foragers and providers.

That's right, I have some unbelievable guests today. First up, I get to introduce you to the Ebony Anglers, a trailblazing team of sport fishing women. And later I share a giddy conversation I had with my clam and sister and soulmate, award winning New York Times food columnist and cookbook author Melissa Clark. We talk about why we love crouching and saltwater by ourselves. So damn much. Okay. First up,

the Ebony Anglers. Oh lord. They are a trophy winning, groundbreaking group of women who have come together to promote the joys of fishing, boating, and the great outdoors. Their passion, victories and awards have inspired the creation of the Ebony Angler Foundation, which has created educational programs, mentorship, and access to phishing and voting experiences, primarily with a BIPOC community. Its driving force is to make all of the outdoors

accessible and enjoyable for everyone. Based in North Carolina, the Ebedy Anglers are Gia Peebles, Leslie Maousi, Tiana Davis, Bobby at Palmer, and Glenda Turner, who unfortunately could not join us for this. So we got four out of five, which was a miracle. Damn it. It's the best day of my life. And I'm going to tell you why, because the Ebony Anglers are with me. I have been chasing them like Moby Dick for years. I was emailing them,

I was going to their website. I was like, dear God, I think that there Reese Witherspoon faster than these people. And finally the day has come. The Ebony Anglers are here. And first of all, ladies, thank you for being here, thank you for anchoring and coming in and talking to me. And second of all, I am a huge fisherwoman. I showed you some photos before we started this podcast. I am in it. I love it. It is my happy place,

it is my meditation place. I love to fish. And you know, I've always been intimidated because my husband doesn't fish. But I've never had a girlfriend that would go fishing with me. And I've always wanted to go on a fishing trip and I don't want to go with some dudes, I want to go with my girlfriends and nobody will come. So when I saw that you were a group a bad ass fisherwoman, I was like, I want in, but you're ebony Anglers. So unless the Ivory Anglers come along,

I'm out of luck. But we can be the ebony and ivory angle. There we go. Absolutely, that's beautiful. Consider us. Your girlfriends come on and join us. Listen, don't do not say that to me. I will be on a plane so fast it'll make your head spend everything about the Ebony Anglers, your charitable component, all of it. And I'm a big child advocate. I'm all about raising awareness for girls. And there you all that one delicious little

net of fish. Have you captured everything that I love? Okay, So I'm not going to talk anymore because I want to hear from you. How did this start? How did you guys come together? Were you drinking you know, sex on the beaches one day and You're like, we could start a fishing group. Yeah, so I'll jump in on that one. Essentially, I got into fishing because my husband loved to fish, so it was something kind of we did as a pastime to equal out our crazy lives

as entrepreneurs. But we were down at the coast and there's a huge tournament called the Big Rock Blue Marlin Tournament. And the first day, this boat is backing in and five ladies get off the boat, and then another boat backs in and five more ladies get off the boat. So I look at him and I'm like, okay, what's going on here? Why all these women? And he was like, well, the first two days is the ladies tournament. So, being the natural competitor that I am, I'm like, okay, how

do you get into this right? And so he's like, you gotta get a boat, you gotta get a captain, you gotta get a team together. So immediately my rolodex starts turning, like, Okay, who can I call that is crazy enough to do this with me? Because, like you, Alie, I don't know a lot of other women who fished, right, who'd you call? Who'd you call? First? I called Leslie? Yes, yes, And we actually had just been out fishing together and I saw her fishing off of our boat and I

was like, okay, she's got some grit about her. So she immediately rose up. So I called Leslie. Then I called Bobby. We kind of have a long relationship in the beauty industry. Then I called Glinda. We worked together, and Leslie brought in Tiana because she knew her very well. Tiana's a mother of five and owns the business, and so I said she'd be a perfect fit for us. Okay, you know what we're missing, Glinda, but let's do a quick intro of everyone else here. Okay, I am Bobby

at Glover. I am recently married, I will be turning forty, and I am also a grandmother, which is funny. And I have five kids now. I went from one biological too. Now I have five kids, a grandchild and one on the way. I'm Leslie MAUSI I am a wife, a mom, a retired educator. I own a music festival. I'm a newly published author, and I turned fifty this year. I'm a hashtag boy mom and all things music. That's me. Hello.

I'm Tianna Davis. I'm from Long Island, New York. I'm the owner of a hospitality and catering company, the mother of five amazing children, all of whom I've pushed through my womb. And I'm a badass ebony angler I'm Ga Peebles, the mother of three sons, entrepreneur, stylist, and former professional athletes. Amazing. So okay, so let me here's my first question, because I know there's a good answer to this. How do the white men I feel about a bunch of black

women competing with them for fish? Because that is a primal thing. You must have some stories about this, and I want to hear them right now. The totally love it. White men love us. Yeah, after they get over the disbelief, like you know, like shock, like yes, are they really out here fishing? And then after they realize we're really out there fishing, they're like all in. They want to know, like, you know, what are y'all doing? Who are y'all? How

are you doing this? Until we beat their ass? Not only that they're that's right, they're looking at us and we've got a full face of makeup and we've got all these matching outfits. They don't we're matching outfits out there on the water, but we're all color coordinated. Well maybe they do below deck, but they certainly, and they're like, what's going on here? But then when we pull our fish out, you know, and we go up to the way station. Then I think that's where that respect comes in.

And then they want to come over and talk and chat. So it's like, oh, yeah, these ladies are serious, and well how do they react when you beat them in a competition? You're all smiling? Come on, I want to hear just like fill the tea right, yeah, in disbelief. Yeah, they're shocked. They're in disbel leave. Like you know, I think even what you know, one person was like, yeah, I'll checked the scale, you know, like and and they just because they just couldn't believe it, you know initially.

But we walked over proud with our fish, like yeah, you know we've won. This is our fish. You know, take note, take note, take note. We're doing this too. So all right, So to put it in a relationship metaphor, do you all each have a story of the one that got away? Did you have like a Marlin or something huge at the end you lost it? Because that's got that I oh, that's heartbreaking more than losing a relationship. If that big fish is on and you lose it,

poor Bobby. Yeah, let me tell you my heartbreak in marlins story. Um, so you know, it takes a lot of intestinal fortitude. I always say to do this deep sea fishing thing, especially competitively. And the first like super huge tournament we had besides our very first one that we won was the Big Rock Blue Marlin Tournament and we are out on our you know, sixty foot yacht in eight to ten foot ocean swells while it's pouring down rain, and we did pretty good. We had a

pretty good hawk. We caught four large mahi, about twenty twenty three pound mahi. And so it was my turn up at the rod, and wouldn't you know it, five six hundred pounds marlin hits the rod. And when I tell you, it was like a train hit the rod. I was not ready. Was I saw Jaws? I know what it feels like. I guess it was like Jaws. And I'm telling you that fish for forty minutes just swam straight down like, did not rest, did not give any slack. And I just remember thinking, well, something's wrong

with this rod because it's not the reels. It's just not reeling. It just won't go. It wasn't the rod. It was me and you know, just fighting this fish that I'd never experienced that power before ever and could not fathom what that felt like. And so, you know, forty minutes and at this point, I didn't think that I could pass the rod to my teammates because you know, every tournament has different rules and we're knew, we're still learning everything and um, and so no one could touch

the rod. You know, everybody was like yelling at me, like hey, keep really keep red. I'm like, I can't, and I'm thinking, you know, trying to trying to do this thing. I put me in the fight chair and for another twenty twenty five minutes, I'm in this chair, fish swimming straight down. Next thing I know, I'm like, oh, yeah, I got this. Now. The rod's easy to reel now. And that's because he was gone. That was the last opportunity that we had in that tournament to get something.

And I just felt like, oh my god, I failed my team. And also I was kind of like, oh God, thank god this is over. Wow. So, Tiana, for people that don't fish, it explain to my listeners how strong you have to be to be a fisher person. Like when you've got a big fish at the end on your hook, it's your guns better be like Michelle Obama's I mean you got to reel that thing. And there are times where I want to give up because I'm just like, I don't have the strike. Yeah, absolutely, to

talk about that. Yeah. So one of the things that we try to do is, you know, make sure that we are ready and stay in shape, like we're hitting the gym and we're working on our cardio and weightlifting, because as Bobby had said, once that fish hits the line, you feel like you've been hit by a truck, and it is like sink or swim. Right, forgive me for the poor metaphor right now, I love it, but it is really a test of everything that you have inside

of you. You're great, you're endurance, particularly in the tournaments when you cannot pass the rod over to your teammate. You have this potentially three four five hundred pound fish fighting for its life and you're fighting for a million dollars. So who's gonna win? Right, Gia. Let me ask you this greatest win like for some people that oh the super Bowl that you know, for you guys, what competition

did you win? And it was just great? So people can fish, you know, basically their entire career and never win a tournament like just like the last one we fished in for KLLA. I think those ladies had been fishing for seven years and that was their first win at So we always say it was kind of divine order for us to actually win the first tournament that

we ever competed in as a team. Right, So with that kind of being said, we're always chasing that high, like that initial experience was just I mean, it gives me goosebumps now just thinking about it. Right, our boat captain was eighty years old and when we ruled that fish in, he leaped off of his feet because he was like, oh my god, this is the biggest catch that he's ever had of his career. So I would have to say that it's called the Carteret Community College

Spanish Mackerel Tournament. That was the first tournament that we competed in as a unit or a team together, and that was our first win. And do you get a trophy? If you get a trophy, do you get a J max gift card? Like what do you win with? So we did get a monetary prize along with a trophy as well. Yeah, and we would have took the TJ Max to gift card also because to look at exactly who wouldn't, right, who wouldn't So Leslie, let me ask

you this. So, when you guys you're doing these tournaments, what's the furthest place from home you've gone to compete. The farthest we've gone is Almarado, Florida. We really wanted to take advantage of fishing during the winter months, and here in North carolina's just so cold, it's kind of miserable on the water. So we were just thinking, where could we go it's warmer, Where do they have fishing

all year long? And we actually met on social media some lovely, lovely ladies called real Gals, and that kind of took us down to Florida, the West Palm Beach area, and we found a really nice tournament down there called the Fish for Holly Tournament, and it was tied to a really great cause. And you know, we had just put on Instagram that we were going to travel to Florida and participate in this great tournament for a great cause.

And we get down there. We're wearing our sweatshirts and our hats, and there were so many people there that said, we know you guys. We were so happy to hear that you were coming like we follow you. So just to just to get all the way down to our maraud Or Florida, the Keys and meet up with people who had followed our journey and to know that we all had the same connection. And that was the love for this sport and it was the respect for um, this family who had set up this wonderful tournament in

honor of their child. Yeah, it was a great experience. How often do you guys fish in a year? Every weekend every few months? Only wanted to hot out, like, how does your schedule work? So we formed the team. We wanted to make sure that we were fishing once per quarter competitively and then um in between there how often can we realistically practice? And so we try to get out there maybe once every six to eight weeks,

and it doesn't always happen that way. Imagine trying to sink five schedules and it's it's hell getting you on my podcast exactly exactly now you understand one. So, Gia, it's expensive the sport. Yes, you know. I know that. When I want to fish in the summer because I love it, it's it's cost me a pretty penny. So it must cost you guys money renting the boats, buying

the gear. It really does. And you're exactly right, because, especially for the larger tournaments where the purse is a lot bigger, we have to charter a much larger like Bobby had said, you know, sometimes it's forty one foot to sixty, you know, plus and from North Carolina, we have to go about two hours off of our coast to get to the gold stream where the much larger fish are that we're looking to catch. So you know,

we pretty much have financed it all ourselves. That is the beauty of having a team, and that we can kind of divvy up the costs and split it among the five of us to all pitch in. And you know, we agreed in the beginning, like we all agreed that we were committed to this and it was something that we not only wanted just to do, we wanted to do it well. And so you know, we're all moms, we're all business owners, were all wives. It's a sacrifice,

but we've been willing to make that sacrifice. Now, if truth be told, for some of us, it is an escape, right, I don't know what you're talking about. It is an escape. We need that little breath, you know, just to to recharge ourselves. And so it does make it nice to say, oh, honey, I've got a fishing tournament this weekend, so I'll be back so with your camps Black Girls Fish and Black Boys Boat, which I think are incredibly fantastic. Has there been a kid or an experience that really stands out

to you. One of the things that really is just amazing to me each and every time it never loses its luster, is when we see a kid that's caught their very first fish that has happened so many times, where the look on their face, the pure unadulterated glee that they are feeling because they've caught this little pinfish that's like four inches big. Right. But but for them, you can't say that it's not that fifteen pound salmon, right or the five hundred pound balls right, because it

is life changing. Y. Yeah, it's a moment of success, it's an accomplishment, it's a reward, and you have to have patience. They call it fishion, not catching, so you you never know if you're going to get something and you're casting out, you can't see what's below the surface, and you know when you feel that tug on that line. It's adrenaline, you know. It's that it's those endorphins that are released and reeling it in and seeing what it is.

And when something hits our line, it's that moment when you first see color, you know, and you're wondering what it is. And you know, we're learning to tell different fish by the type of fight that they give, but you really never know until you see that color come toward the surface, and when it breaks that surface, you know that that's what these kids are feeling. It's that adrenaline, natural high. Don't you think there's something really primal about

it too. You know. I remember during the during COVID, I went out fishing a few times, and there was something great about coming home with a fish and putting it on the counter and looking at my husband and saying, like, I'm a prof fighter. Yes, you know, I went out, I got dinner. I cooked dinner. That's right, you know what I mean. I love that feeling too, yes, absolutely absolutely, and that that just adds to the feeling of accomplishment.

And I think for not only for us, but for the kids, you know, learning how to fight something that you can't see learning how to fight the unknown. Like Bobby was saying, you don't know what it is until you reel it up. So the only thing you have to depend on is you your strength and your fortitude, and you have got to pull it in and it's all up to you. So it's a it's very self rewarding, you know, and it's a great feeling to pull it out the water. And that's why we do what we do.

You know, tournaments are amazing. We do that for the thrill of it, but our foundation really is so that we can impact lives of little kids that look like us and just open them up to so many more opportunity. I love it. There's a lot more to come after the short break and we're back. You know. I actually think teenagers could benefit so much from this too. I mean, with all the issues they're dealing with right now, mental health, trauma, addiction,

global warming, civil unrest. You know, I've been saying for years that I think there's a real mental health crisis in our country for teenagers, and how amazing would it be for them to have a place to go to be competitive and to find their strength is such an important thing, you know. I found clamming during COVID. But you know, but it was a great coping thing for me, and I think they need those sort of outdoor coping things. But it's empowered too, and it's healthy, and it's something

else to focus on. Yeah, it is. It is healthy. We have really noticed how children, even with addiction to devices, when they're with us, it's a no device zone, and so how they kind of don't want to release their devices or turn them off. But after about thirty forty five minutes there are yards away from their backpacks. They are not thinking about phones, video games, consoles, none of that, and they are playing with one another like we used to back in the day, right outside, rolling around in

the sand, frolicking in the water. And it is just a return to what's most important. And that was the vision behind really creating the camps, because you know, we see kids they deal with so much, whether it be depression, a lot of kids are cutting themselves, a lot of kids are coming out of the pandemic with emotional trauma just from isolation. So we're really really glad that we can be a part of healing. It's healing to us to be out there. I mean just mentally, emotionally, it's

healing being out on the water perfectly. And I don't know if you ladies remember, but we had a young lady that was very apprehensive about engaging with the group. I don't know if you ladies remember that, like I do, remember socialization perspective. You know, she was like, I don't have any friends, and you know, kind of nobody wanted to play with me. And I think it was Tianna. I think Tiana you were the one who kind of

really facilitated that. She took the young lady, she brought her over to the other girls, and Tianna introduced her to the other ladies, and like like Leslie was saying, by the end of the camp, they were, you know, playing together. You know, they're probably lifelong friends. Like remember when we were in camp. What's really incredible with the children is that I think for each of us, we're

able to identify parts of ourselves in these kids. So for that particular young lady, I wanted to beat for her what I needed when I was her age, and just I saw something in her that really was an opportunity to make connections that she could not do on her own. In that moment and she just needed some nurturing. Do you guys ever get any animal activists after you I once posted a picture of me holding a big fish, and people started talking about how inhumane I was, and

I was like, I ate it. I fed my family with us. Yeah, we absolutely have, Okay, Yeah, yeah, we do get some comments like that on social media. You know, for the most part, it's it's positive, overwhelmingly positive. But you know, you get those trolls out there and the animal activists, they are serious and just like you said, you know, like we picked charitable tournaments. You know, we're

about conservation. We always you know, when we bring in meat fish and we divvat them up between our families. We have fish tacos. You know, our husbands are waiting at the docks for us to cook up our fish that we went out and caught. And we really are about stewardship of the environment and teaching the next generation, which is why we started our foundation, you know, to teach kids how to fish and how to boat and you know, and about conservation. And we do have some news.

If I kid, you're giving me some breaking news, breaking news, we saved it just for you. Yes, So um. So our nonprofit is the Ebony Anglers Foundation, and we are so excited to say that we've just partnered with the National Parks Foundations and the National Parks Service and they have awarded us a large grant to expand our programming and our goal is to take the programming nation and wide.

We started off with a summer camp for kids here in Durham, North Carolina, black girlish um about twenty twenty five kids, Black girlsmission black boys. Yeah yeah. And and the National Parks Service and Foundation they found us and they you know, they pursued us and said, we want to be a part of this. We love what you're doing and we want to help, you know, and so this is our pilot program and they have just been so amazing and giving us the support that we need.

UM and so you know this this is huge for us, huge for our foundation and our goals as UM as a team to teach teach the littles. So we are just so is amazing. Thank you. That is really great. Thank you. Oh gosh, I just that is the best news. And because I love the blueprint for your whole foundation should be nationwide. I mean it should be global, but let's start locally, but it should be nationwide. So congratulations, thank you. So I can be part of it in

any way, Please tell me thank you. I'm serious. Oh absolutely, we would love to invite you to come fishing with us. I'm there, I am there, I am this is I am not bullshitting you. Okay, lying there? Can you invite me? I am gonna come. Wonderful Okay, yes, well you have an open invitation, so just let us know when you're You're available. I'm available, I'm available. Why don't you guys come up to Long Island and come fishing with me? How about that? There's some big, big fish in Long Island.

Let's do it. That would be awesome. So, you know, my my podcast, Go Ask Ali, I ask people a lot of questions, and so I like to give them an opportunity at the end of the podcast to ask me something. So all four of you can ask me a question. You can go ask Ali, and let's start with Bobby. Ask me anything, Bobby. You know, Al, I'm so glad that you started with me because I have

a very important question to ask you. And my question is, if this was a zombie apocalypse, what is your weapon of choice if it's a But by the way, I watch The Walking Dead and I'm watching The Last of Us, so I think about this all the time. I don't I don't believe in guns, but it seems to be the only thing that they can use to kill the zombies because you have to, you know, get them in

the head. So um, but I think some kind of a big like a fish gutting knife would be you know, because you can get him in the head with that, you can kill the un zombie humans with it. So yeah, pick cutting knife. She's given this some thought, Janna, how can I answer her question? Okay, my question? So I had several really great questions, but the one that I landed on is what makes a good spy Um, a poker face. A SPI will not let you know what

they're thinking or what they're doing. And I say that as an empowered female, because you know, female spies are always just using their sexuality. I think it's so much more than that. But I think if you have a poker face and they can't guess what you're thinking or doing, or the fact that you've got a gun duct tape to your thigh, or a good SI, I like it is okay, giaf okay. So I am a beauty professional. So I have a beauty question. To wax or to shave,

that is the question. What is your proper gia? I'm I'm fairly hairless like that has never been an issue for me. I shave okay. I have a Greek husband. So my daughters are half Greek and they are dipped in wax weekly. They are very good for me. Save for my little Greek hairy daughters. It's wax everywhere everywhere. You're not dipping the babies, are you. I'm not dipping them? All right, leslie? What about your question? All right? So

here's my question. What was the worst advice you ever received? Oh? Just stay with him, collaborate, listen. I am so happily married right now. But you know, we all had our bad choices. Our our frontal lobe hadn't developed. So you know, I dated some bad boys and one of them was just, you know, a bit of a drinker and a philanderer. And I would say to my friends, well, he's cheated on me so much. He's always drunk, and he never pays for anything. And I would get nobody's so cute,

just stay with him. And I was like, that is the worst advice now ever, I wish I got advice like from my mother, like where sunscreen and you know, have your own bank account. But this was the one that stands out as the worst. Ebbony Anglers. I'm obsessed with you. I love you. I am coming fishing with you because I have it on tape, you asking me and let's do it. I so look forward to it.

I love everything you do. Keep winning those competitions, keep supporting our youth, and I'll see you down south soon. So thank you, thank you, absolutely, thank you, thank you. It's time for a short break. But when we come back, we're going to jump off the boat, put our tushies in the wet sand. Go from competition to meditation with Melissa Clark, the New York Times food calmnist and cookbook author. Welcome back to go ask Gali, and now it is

time for my clamming soul sister. Melissa Clark is an award winning New York Times food columnist and cookbook author. She has written forty five cookbooks, including the best selling Dinner in French and the award winning Dinner Changing the Game In twenty twelve, she joined the staff of the New York Times, where she writes the highly popular food section column A Good Appetite. Her latest book is Dinner in One, a collection of complex tasting but easy making

one pot, one pan meals. She lives in Brooklyn with

her husband and daughter. So one morning in August, I believe, my husband, George emailed me a article that you wrote in the New York Times about clamming, and it spoke to me like no other book article I've ever read, because I discovered clamming and I got into it really hardcore during COVID because we were out in Long Island, and it saved my life because I would go out there in my waiters with my rake, and I started getting a few clams for the family, and then I

became so good at it that I started getting clams for our neighbors, and then some food pantries, and I just I became this incredibly. I don't know if there's a god god in Greek mythology that clams, but I became that person. So when I read your article, and you too loved clamming and felt very meditative about it, I thought, wow, I can't believe I married George. I have just found my soulmate. So tell me about your whole clamming experience. Well, first of all, I also found

clamming during the pandemic. I didn't grow up clamming. I grew up in brook We didn't eat a lot of clams though. I mean, we went to Lundy's, you know, we did the whole Brooklyn thing. We went and we had clams there, but we didn't actually go out and get our own clams. It just wasn't a thing. We went to fish stores and bought them. So I was out on Shelter Island the first year of the pandemic and I just got it in my head that I wanted to clam because I love pasta with clam sauce.

I thought, well, they're right there, they're there. I don't see them, I don't hear them, but I had faith. It was crazy. It was like, I'm not religious, I'm not a meditator, but somehow I knew that those clams were there and they are waiting for me, and I was going to get them. And I thought I'm gonna I'm gonna try it. And I'd never done it, but I asked my friends who live on Shelter Island we were out visiting them, if they knew anything about clamming.

And they had a friend who was a clamming guru and they went clamming all the time. So they brought me along. I put my waiters on, I had my bucket. They gave me a rake, and I got out there and within fifteen minutes I had shed all that. I was like, you know what, my toes need to be in the sand. I like clamming with my toes. So I it's summertime now, I assume it's warm out. Yeah. Oh this was This was July or August actually, and so every the water was warm. It was hot out.

I was in the sunshine and I was just like doing a little shimmy dance on the sand because you know, you do a little dance and your toes get in the sand and you can find those clams with your toes and you go down and you pull them up and you're like, it's a rock. At the beginning, I felt like Charlie Brown at Halloween. Yeah, you know, I got a rough. I got a rock. But then I started to my toes got sensitive and I could feel the curve of the shell, and I was like, oh hah,

that's a play. I'm not a rock. And I started to figure out what was what, and soon my bucket began to fill and we caught one hundred and twenty five clams that day between five of us, and we made the biggest pasta with clamshus feast ever. And I was ecstatic, right because here's the thing, Melissa. The first part is there's something very primal, particularly during a global pandemic, with the idea of I'm going to go out and be a provider, like I'm going to actually go out

and get the food. So that was my first excitement because I love my husband, but he is not a forager of any kind. Then the next thing was and I experienced a similar thing where I had a hard time finding the clams. My first couple of times I brought nothing back because I didn't know what I was doing. And then when you start to find a few, whether through your toes or with your rake or I use my hands, it is like finding diamonds in a mind. It is the most exciting thing. And then you sort

of hone your skill. Then you start to realize how to, like you said, figure out what is a clam, what is a rock? What is a broken shell? Exactly? Yeah, and then you know your spot, right, you go back and you're like, that's my spot. And then you see someone else in your spotty really mad, even though you know you don't live there and you're just visiting. Oh No.

I got extremely territorial about this area because I would go to a place in the springs in Long Island, which usually there was nobody ever there, which another part of it I loved was it became very meditative for me. It's like I like to go out there by myself, exactly, and every once in a while I'd see usually this like eighty year old guy with no shirt on, you know,

with his basket. But we had that very simple nod of like you stay out of my area, I'll stay out of your, you know, And it was very if it's very calm. So then my clamming and I don't know how far it went with you, and I'd like to hear, but my clamming has gotten so out of control that I do it in the winter and I recently at the end of the summer in Long Island they have the biggest clam contest that I tried to

win and just missed out. So then I had to go look for the biggest clam and I found almost a two pounder. You didn't. Yeah, So then it's like, how do I find like the little ones for the linguidy of Bengali, but that I need the big ones to win the clam contest. So tell me about that part of the experience. Okay, that you are a clamor beyond me and will you take me clamming? Will that ever happened? Yeah? I feel like now you could be my new clamming guru. Because we don't have a place

on Long Island. The first summer we rented a place on Shelter Island and we went clamming there. Then last summer we went to Orient on the North Fork and we rented a place there and I got I got my legal clamming license. It isn't that a great feeling. Yes, I went down to the town hall and they sold me the seafood license and so I was very official, and so I was out there every day and so

for me it was only two weeks. You know, it was a week in summer twenty twenty one, and then a week in summer twenty twenty two or two weeks then. So I've all told three weeks of clambing experience. So obviously I'm nowhere near where you are, but it really is to me. I can't wait. I mean, I'm looking for my house again this year. I'm like, I need a house where I can go clamming because I need the meditative experience and that is the most important part of it. Yes, I love the clams. I don't want

to buy clams. It's funny because I think about it. I'm like, I, like you said, I need to pull them out of the sand myself. Yeah, for to me as delicious and satisfying. So you made the Linguinian clams, so I found that was my daughters their favorite food, and I kept making Linguinian clams during COVID and then they were like enough with the linguinan so then I had to be creative. But there's nobody more creative with

food than you. So did you make other things besides absolutely? Yes, Okay, let's hear the beginning with clam was like the first summer. Then the second summer I branched out. I did clam chowder, all kinds of clam chowder. So I did traditional clam chowder with milk and potatoes. I did Manhattan clam chowder, which I love with the tomatoes. I did a coconut clam chowder with corn and coconut milk, which was so good. It was almost a little bit a tie and inspired

by Thai food. There was a lemongrass and cilantro and um lime juice and it was so good, um okay. And then so I decided that really what I love is I love raw clams. I love the crunch of a raw clam like I love oysters. But I really love raw clams. And so I decided I was going to try to open them, and I can't do it. I am brilliant at opening oysters. Give me two dozen, three dozen oysters. I can open them in two seconds. You're a shucker. I can't get the damn clams open.

They won't open like when they're when they when they clam up, they do not want to open for me. And they were good the ones you got when you went clamming a Long Island, I mean the three that I got open. Yeah, Oh you know what, I did a lot. Also, we steamed them. So I steamed him like muscles, garlic, white wine, red pepper flakes, and parsley, and then a big bag yet and you just yes,

we did that. We did that too. It was delicious. Yeah. Um. So here's the thing I'm wondering now if after my clamming I kind of want to get an oyster bed now, Okay, so that interests you at all? Yes? So, yes, I've written about oysters. I wrote a big story about how oyster farming is going to save us. I truly believe in oyster farming. I belong to an oyster CSA where I get oysters every other week. How do you do that? I want to be part of that. It's amazing. They'll yeah,

they have delivery points. They're Maine or they're from all actually from all over the Northeast. It started out in just Maine and now it's in Massachusetts. They have some from Canada. And it started out because the oyster industry was having a huge problem during early COVID because all the restaurants were closed and they couldn't sell their oysters. So they started in oyster CSA to distribute directly to

people so that they could stay basically stay afloat. And I've been a member ever since, and there's so much easier to shut. Yeah, they're easier to shut. I don't cook them. I don't like them cook. If I'm gonna eat my I like my clams cooked or raw. I like my oysters raw. They have to be raw. Yeah, I don't like them any other way. What about muscles? Can you can you go muscling? Like in Maine? It Can we just go gather muscles on the beach somewhere?

I'm sure. Well, two of my best friends are from Maine. They're main girls, and they say yes. And I've seen a lot of muscle shells in Long Island, and I know that you can go scaloping, So I don't see why. I mean on my feeling is if I see a trace of it, you got to be able to do it. So if I see lots of muscle shells, there's got to be muscles in there somewhere. The question is is there enough of them to gather or are they protected?

So well, that's now that we have our license, our seafood license, this is stuff we need to explore exactly. But the big issue is will it be as meditative as it is when we go clamming, because I used to go crabbing, and crabbing I found meditative and I did it with a long net off a dock, and that was very meditative. And it also had like a

bit of battle, you know what I mean. There was you felt a little bit like you were a game of throwing trying to get the you know, lure them in and then grab them up and then grab them up. And that was exciting. But it's not necessarily meditative the way the clamming is. So I'm curious if there's other crustacean sports that will give us the kind of sedated, you know, less anxious state that obviously Melissa and I

need to be in. Well, I think the thing about clamming, and for me, the thing that really is attractive to me is that I don't I can't have my phone because I'm in the water. Yeah, so no phone, I'm offshore, I'm away from my people. No one wants to go clamming. Let me tell you, no one wants to go clamming with me. I beg people to come clambing with me. I know, I can't get people now, wait, let me ask you this. How deep in the water have you gone?

What's the deepest? Um, I guess okay, So I only go as far as I can take my arm and reach down to pick up the clam without getting my hair wet, okay, because I don't want to have to shampoo every day, So fair enough. What about you? So I same with me. I could get up to the waist as long as I could take my arm down. But there was a few times in the summer where I got overly excited and I went under, oh like literally submerged myself because I my hand felt a bevy

a host as you call it. But I felt a lot of them, the convention of clams, convention of clams, and I just I couldn't help myself, so I went under, which was I had to. I had to sort of pull myself together after that because if I felt a little aggressive and slightly crazy. But usually it's I need to just reach down as far as my hand can go. Yeah, exactly. Um, I mean if I time it right with the tides, there's times when I can go and I'm just up

to my ankles right. Well, No, I always go low tide. Yeah, because it's just not worth it. So I always go low tide, and there's been time times where it's been so low that I'm not even in water there. It's just like muddy mushy, and I can feel down with my hands and pull them up, which I like to do as well. I mean, they're all forms of clamming, and I love them all equally. Have you ever done razor clams? No, because I don't like them as much. I like it. They're not as thick and chewy as

a regular cohg. Yes, little neck carrystone co hogs. I love them all too. I mean, and I'm a cape cod girl, so I love steamers. You know steamers are funny. Okay, so I love steamers too. I think I love them because of the melted butter. I think, well, of course. But given a choice between a little neck and a steamer, I'm gonna eat the little neck. Oh that's interesting, I'll

eat the steamer. You'll eat the steamer. Yeah. And I love fried clams, fried steamers, ipswich, fried clams, fried clams amazing, but they have to be real clams. I don't like the clamstrips. I don't like it when they give you the fried clam strips and pretend they're clams. I like the clam bellies. Oh yeah, you have to have the clam bellies you can. Otherwise it's just fried dough, you know, like that. I don't even know what. I think they're squid.

I think they lie. I think they're not. It's fried dough. It's fried dough. It's not even anything. Do you potentially think, Melissy, that you could write a cookbook that was just all clam based recipes of all the different clams, or would that end up at the Strand bookstore? Well, it depends.

I think that if um, if I had enough storytelling behind it, you know, like all, get all the clamming personalities out there, like you and whoever, and all the recipes right, and get everybody's recipes and everybody's clam stories, and and maybe if it were a clamming how to meditation wellness guide crossed with cookbook, see, I think that would work. And then I think if you threw in a menopause group that would go clamming together, oh my god, and you got Oprah to endorse it, I think then

you get your pollar. So when you're out there and you get a hot flash, no problem, You're just like, oh, I'm just gonna spend right down and splash myself off. Exactly. I feel like there is a thread between clamming, menopause, and meditation that I'm going to figure out and I'm going to pull you on board as one of the members of the new of my Foundation. I am one hundred percent there. You know another thing, though, I think that it might actually be true, I do sleep better

when I clam, Like I sleep better, you know. Oh yeah, It's like when I'm out there and then I come in. I mean, maybe it's just the physical exertion of it. Maybe it's because I only clam when I'm on vacation, but I sleep so much better. Of course, you're you're exerting muscles that you probably don't use that much. I don't care if you go to soul cycle. You know, some of the stuff you do for clamming is not typical. And yeah, that reaching down you're in the water, yea yeah,

and the water is very soothing. And also I'm bringing it back to the caveman thing, you know what I mean, you foraged. That's exhausting. You know, you go you hunt, you gather, and then you sleep. That's what we used to do, and that's all we used to do as human beings. So you know, I've gone mushrooming. I've gone foraging in the woods. I have done that, but it's not like clamming. No, it's not. And I'm scared of mushrooming because I'm afraid I'm going to pick the wrong

mushroom and I'm going to have a different experience. I've only gone mushrooming where it was like morals, where you really knew right like there's no mistaking them, there's no doubt, and you're like, oh, okay, that is a patch of morals and I know exactly what they are, and all these other mushrooms around here are just going to stay right in the ground. Yeah, because I don't need to go on some acid trip and think I'm Bob Dylan for the rest of my life. No, don't need any

phantom thread, no experiences. What about truffle hunting? Have you ever done that? I have done that, But you know the thing about truffle hunting is it's ninety nine percent when they bring people like me and you out there staged, it's all staged, they bury the truffle totally. Oh okay, so forget it. Forget It's not if they dumped a bunch of clams in a baby pool and asked us to go. Okay, all right, again, nothing compares to clamming. There is. It's just being out in the water by ourself.

And even when you go with someone, I mean a few times I've dragged my poor family out with me. You're kind as far away and the water absorbs the sound and you can't really hear what they're saying. Yeah, which is kind of a good thing. No, exactly, because then you've got companionship. Like if you and I would clamming, we would be out there, we'd both have our buckets, we'd like say hi, maybe we'd like compare hot flashes.

Then we'd do our clamming thing and we wouldn't even talk to each other, except if we caught like a big one, we'd be like yeah, or you know, we'd show our buckets occasionally and then we'd be so happy, and then we would come in and we'd make lunch. Yeah, and that's where all the talking happens, exactly, yea. And I mean, another thing that makes it meditative is because you are so in the moment, right, you don't have

your phone, You're not thinking about work. All you're thinking about is the sensation of can I feel the clam? Can I feel the clam? Can I feel? And there is no other time that I'm as the moment as that, right, And so think about when we were in a global pandemic.

There was so much anxiety at that point that clamming to me was meditative because I just focused on the one task at hand and it was incredibly relaxing not to be reading the paper and freaking out or listening to my husband doing ABC news briefs down in the dining room so zoom. Yeah. So that to me, it was on all levels meditative because you focused on the one thing. Yeah. All right, So I'm going the summer. Are you going to come with me? I am all right,

I'm gonna be there. We're gonna clam we're gonna cook, and then we're gonna put it on our instagrams and people are gonna go, oh, what about that? Those girls were talking about clamming, and they went and they did it, and there they are and there's the recipe, and everyone else can go clamming too. You know, I don't know if people like clams as much as you and I do. Though, I feel like people don't understand clams. They just don't know. So we are going to take them by the hand

and the rake, and we're going to show them exactly. Hey, do I get to ask you the question? Yes? Oh my god, I was again so excited about finding a clambing partner. You can ask me anything you want. The Wasp Cookbook, Yes, you wrote that. I wrote that a million years ago. And it is not a real cookbook in that I don't want people to actually make their recipes.

It is a social commentary on my people because I grew up eating deviled eggs and prune whip and chipped cream beef on toast, and I didn't realize that there was a whole culinary world out there. Things like garlic existed and spices, and so that's what got me interested in cooking. Is there? Okay? So if I was going to make one recipe from your Wasp cookbook, which I have ordered, oh my gosh, what is the recipe from

your Wasp Cookbook that I should make? Well, I mean, I have to say deviled eggs or a staple, and uh, you know, I say in the book that there's a fine line between white trash cooking and wasp cooking. There's a lot of mayonnaise with both. But the deviled eggs and then bourbon balls, I call them Grandpa's bourbon balls. Oh, bourbon balls balls, So that would be it. I mean, prune a whip sounds disgusting, but it really tastes good. It's just basically whipped cream and prune juice, which is

actually delicious. But everything else, I would enjoy the book for its social commentary unless it's recipes. Okay, well, I'm very excited to get it. I'm going to make the bourbon balls because I do love them, and make deviled eggs, and then you and I are gonna go clambing. It's gonna be awesome. I can't wait. Thank you, Thanks, I'm excited. Oh don't think I'm not going to be deep sea fishing with the Ebony Anglers or clamming with Melissa Clark

this summer, because I am. So you just be checking my Instagram because you're going to see a lot of pictures of me bringing in a marlin or chucking a bunch of co hogs. Thank you for listening to Go ask Alli. The ebbty Anglers team is on Instagram and Facebook at ebboty Anglers and its website is super easy ebbedy anglers dot com and be sure to check out Melissa Clark's New York Times food section column a good Appetite.

You can also keep up with her on Instagram at clark Bar for more info and what you heard on this amusing episode. Check out our show notes. Okay, so what about the Webby Award nomination. It's for the best individual interview talk show episode and we are beyond excited. It's a People's Choice awards, so our people need to vote for us, and that is you. So please go vote. I've done it and it's super easy and the link is in their show notes. Or you can go to

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