The Girlfriend Breakup w/ Danielle Bayard Jackson

mad about is you. You actually looked for those little colonels of hope dumout. Yeah, well that's that's a good stuff. I think it is a good stuff, and I think we need the good stuff. Always. Welcome to go ask Allie. I'm Alli Wentworth this season, I am digging into everything I can get my hands on. I'm just peeling back the layers and getting dirty. You know. A few weeks ago, we got a question about how to end a friendship.

Our listener said, I'm not the type to ghost people, but I don't want to have to sit down and g conversation, which got us thinking because I think every woman I know has either been broken up with by a friend or broken up with a friend. There's really no clear way to do it. When you're in a romantic relationship, it's very easy too. You could say you cheated on me. We're arguing all the time, Um, it's not me, it's you. But with friendship, there's just not

an easy way to get out of it. And there's nothing worse than being deep into a friendship and sort of seeing the cracks, as they say, and suddenly you go, God, I don't really want to be friends with this person anymore? What do I do? This episode is about the friendships that don't work out? How the hell do you get out?

I'm very excited about my guest, Danielle Buyer Jackson. She's a certified friendship coach, what's that Well You're gonna find out, speaker and founder of friend Forward, a platform dedicated to teaching women how to create and sustain meaningful friendships. Her advice has been featured in NBC News and The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, The Insider, and Danielle is also the host of the friend Forward podcast. Well hello,

fellow podcaster, Danielle, thank you for being here. Well, thank you for having me I'm excited to have this chat. Well, okay, so before we delve deep into the friendship divorce, explain what a friendship coaches and how the hell did you get into that specific genre. I'm not surprised that it's got you thinking, like, what in the world? Right, It's funny because when I do share what I do with other people, I get the side I right. I get

people who are like, oh, that's that's adorable. Good for you know, I'm getting like how much do cops an hour? Because I need you right away. No, I appreciate that, you know, a friendship coach. I always say, you know, it's normal to get support in every other area of your life. If you're an entrepreneur and you go and get a business coach, people are like, oh my god, that's so like wise of you. Or you're struggling your

marriage counselor so why not somebody to support you? And what I would argue is one of the most important relationships to lover have. Um, you know, and I work with women, so you know female friendships and so you know. I was actually a high school English teacher for six years and I left the classroom to get into PR and It's funny because I made the foolish mistake of thinking, oh, I'm out of you know, high school, I'm not gonna have to help them through their drama. Little did I know,

you know, adults, we have our our issues too. And so I was just curious one night and I went on Amazon and I searched friendship books, and of the few results that came back, most of them were for children. And I thought, is this what we think a friendship? That a kid would need help? But if you're an adult, like you should have it together. And so long story short, I started going down the rabbit hole and and you know, I already had my education background and started doing friendship

stuff and talking to psychologists about it. And so for the past four years, that's that's the role I've been serving it. And it's been a really fun journey so far. Well, congratulations, we could we could use a friendship coach. And so let me start by saying, I have two teenage daughters. So I have found that I sometimes go through the

exact same thing that they're going through. And so not only have I been sort of charting my own waters when it comes to female friendships, I suddenly have two teenage girls coming to me and asking for my advice on stuff. And there are some things I think I'm pretty good at, but there are other things where I'm like, I don't know, maybe she is ghosting you, you know, like I don't know. So I'm going to soak up

like a sponge everything you give me today. So we're just starting to come out of COVID, and I think it's been kind of a universal thing, particularly for women, that during this time, besides baking a lot of bread, we have reassessed our friendships. Everybody I've spoken to has said that because suddenly it comes down to like who do I want to spend my time with and who

makes me feel good. One of the most common things people were coming to me for during the pandemic was, you know, help because I'm starting to see my friend differently, and I think with everything with you know, the social justice movement last summer, last summer summer before Oh my God, with masking or not masking and who did you vote for? It was like a big and a stir in the pot and a lot of stuff came to the surface. So all at once we were looking sideways at our friends,

like hold on, you believe what now? You know you voted for who now, And so I think there is like this this sifting right now. That's I almost think the pandemic kind of like expedite at the process of sifting through your people and taking a friendship inventory because values are important, and maybe you had some realizations with the social justice movement and you don't want to live

or think a certain way. You know. I know for a lot of my black friends, and I'm a black woman, i have lesser tolerance for certain things because I'm just like, I can't anymore. That person is not a bad person, but I'm evolving, very evolving, and we might not come

back together. And that's okay. H. So, once you've gone through that funnel, you have a lot of i'll call them co stars in your life that you realize like are a little bit toxic or actually never made you feel good, but you don't know how to get rid of them. And that is something I've heard from twelve year olds and I've heard from eighty four year olds. So here we are right now today, in this moment, I'm asking you, I have somebody in my life who I don't think is good for me, I think is

toxic for me that talks shit about me. I don't know how to extricate them from my life without there being a lot of drama, and I don't want to get hurt in the process. What do I do? Friendship coach, Yeah, you said a lot of really good things there, because we do think. Okay, I'm clear on letting this go, but I'm so nervous about, you know, all the consequences socially, emotionally, I'm so nervous and I want to avoid that. But

I'm clear on letting somebody go. So the first thing I always bring up when it comes to the conversation of releasing a friendship is to make sure that we're not releasing them prematurely, because what I've noticed is a lot of us we have female friendships that in prematurely in my opinion, because we don't want to have a conversation. So we have not given this friend a chance to

correct herself. We have not made the boundary known. We are telling everybody else that she did this and that, but we never told her about it because we want to spare her feelings. So if you are trying to cut someone off, but you have not yet done the work of making it known what the issue is and giving them a chance to self correct if it's appropriate, then I would say perhaps we're acting a little, you know, too soon. But if you've done that work and you're like, oh, Daniel,

I'm ready, Okay, next step. The first thing I want you to get clear on is when you have that conversation, you want to focus more on what it is you need as opposed to they're perceived inadequacy. So instead of me saying, you know what, you're just to this, you're just not this enough. That's all rooted in her, But the reality is I am looking for something and I don't get it here that we were not like personalizing

it to her. I mean, yeah, she may be awful, but I'm not going to say because you're awful, I'm leaving you. Know. Um, So I might say, you know, listen, I'm trying to focus on X y Z right now, and I just I don't think I can maintain this friendship and do that, and so I'm going to have to step away. And you know, I love you, I

I just I just can't do this anymore. And I know that sounds very formal um it's normal and a romantic relationship to have these mile markers, and it's understood that if you're ending it, you will have the decency of having a conversation. But with friendships it's it's the same thing. If there's a mutual fading out, then sometimes in my opinion, that doesn't require a formal conversation. If both parties are kind of it's understood we're getting busy,

we don't prioritize each other anymore. But as soon as one person is under the impression that we're going to be engaging the same way and another one's made up their mind, they don't want to. Well, now I've got to clarify because there would be an issue here and I might leave somebody hanging. And so I always advised never ghost. Have a conversation in the medium that's most

appropriate for you. Also, if we see each other every day, it might not make sense for me to email you and and trying to do it in what's alignment of like our regular rhythm. And then also get clear on why you're so hesitant to end it in the first place. A lot of people will say, well, because I don't know what she's going to say about me to the other girls. Will never be able to control her narrative.

I know that's not comforting, but you'll never be able to control how she tells people how it went down. You can't. But are you comfortable releasing that because the alternative is what you stay friends with her because you're scared she'll spend the narrative if you don't and let it cause you stress every day. And if we're being honest, I'm sure you've been here. But with my husband, for example, if a woman's giving me drama I used to, I'm complaining about her to him, and I'm talking to my

other friends about it, and I'm dodging her calls. It is more stressful to do all that, and I'm roping other people in than to have an uncomfortable conversation to let her know. And she can be mad, and she might be vile, but at least she's got to respect the fact that I made it really clear and I'm ready to release the friendship with as much grace as possible. And how do you do that without creating the drama?

My fear would be even if I wrote a nice email or sat down with her and said, like, you know, I just feel like we're we have different priorities and whatever. That then she would go nuclear as soon as she walked away from the table, or like you said, she changed the narrative, would you probably will to protect herself, And then I just get afraid of like, oh god,

how does that impact me? Right? Well, you know, I like to take things to like, I don't think we talk about friendship enough from a wellness perspective, because research tells us, and I'm and I'm coming back here, I love it. Research tells us that the thing that has the greatest impact on her overall life satisfaction and well being is not our income or marital status, but the quality of our relationships. And the key word there is quality.

So you're not doing yourself any favors physically, mentally, and emotionally to keep a friendship that is not quality for you. So a lot of us like to say, well, you know, she's she's my friend forever, and I want to honor that. But if it's this obligatory friendship, every time you you get together, you're thinking, God, I wish I could. I should have been spending my time somewhere else. And you're fussing at your husband about her. That does no one

any favors. Um, it's even considered ruinous empathy. Oh, I feel bad for her, so I'm gonna stay. But first of all, she deserves somebody in her company who appreciates what she has to give. And you don't need to be spending your time to do somebody favors. There's just not enough time for that. So do your question about, well, how do I do this without avoiding the drama? The truth is sometimes you can't. Sometimes you cannot do this with a guarantee of there will be no collateral damage,

that she won't pop off on you. She just might. And so a lot of times with clients I like to ask, like, what is the biggest fear, and then let's prepare for that, Like, let's lean into that, because once we do, we'll see, Oh, even the worst case scenario is survivable. I'll be okay. It will be uncomfortable, she might spend the narrative to other people, and then how will I deal with that? But is it worth me hanging on for an unforeseeable amount of time? Because

I don't want to be uncomfortable? Because I don't want her to get mad at me. All those things may happen. I mean, friendship breakups are really hard. And if somebody tells you, like hey, I don't want to do this anymore, we do take it personally. In friendship, you know, it starts because somebody chose you. So when somebody un chooses you, that is very painful. You know, am I not interesting enough,

funny enough, worth your time? You're stirring all those things up in me when you tell me you want to leave, and so you know it is what it is. UM research also tells us that we replace half of our friends every seven years. So to some extent we have to expect there will be like this natural pruning every

now and then. But if I told you that, like, yeah, she is going to blow up and she is going to spend the narrative, now what that would be the thing that I would encourage a client to spend time on, because that's really what's going on, is being scared of someone being upset with you, or being scared that people will misunderstand you when it's over. I mean, it's the

risk you take, but why the fear right? And sometimes do you ask a client or I would say, I asked myself and my daughter's like, get all the drama that will happen if they ghost you or you ghost them, or you lose them, or they do you want to be their friend? Like is this important to you? Is this worth fighting for? Right? A? H and you know, is it worth being all up and knots to have that cringe e conversation? Yeah? And you know, healthy conflict

is good. It serves a purpose because it brings us closer. I get a chance to understand you better. So if of all your experiences you've determined no, I think it's worth it. Like I love what she brings to my life, she has value to my life. I think this is just a really awkward period. Well, then fight for it or save it by having the conversation. Um. I always like to say, you know, starting a hard conversation by doing this exercise, what is the reason you're reluctant to

have the conversation? In my opinion, that should be your opening line because it does bring in vulnerability. So for example, that might look like, listen, I want to talk to you about something, but I have been hesitant to do it because the last thing I want is for it to stir a bunch of drama with with the other girls. That's the last thing I want. But I feel like if we're going to be on the same page, I gotta bring this up because they're less likely to do

the thing if you call it out. And it also lets her know I'm on your team and I've been thoughtful about this, and my objective is to get some harmony, not to come at you. So you know, if you realize I have to have a hard conversation, but I'm scared of my in the friendship. If you believe it's worth it, I mean, bring that thought from your brain to your lips and say I've been hesitant to say this, but I'm going to because like I love you, like you're my girl, you know. So I thought i'd bring

this up and just see how it goes. Now she becomes indignant, or she's like I can't believe you, or gets you know, dramatic. Well, now you look at that, but at least you can say, I mean, I really

tried to tell her where I was coming from. Um. It's interesting I read that a lot of psychologists have in the past sometimes monitored their subjects blood pressure by being in the presence of people who made them feel good and made them feel bad, and they did actually see a physical change, you know, blood pressure going up and down depending on who they're, the friends that they were with, and how they made them feel. Um. I find that I say this to my daughters and I

say this to myself. Does this person make you feel good? Can you base friendships on how does that person make me feel? Do I feel good around them? Yes? Or no? I'm gonna say yes, but I will say, you know, just like with marriage, if we were saying, how's your spouse make you feel well most of the time? Great?

If you can do that, then yes. If I take an aerial view of the last ten interactions y'all had, how many of the ten were positive and contribute to your overall feeling of the friendship, Because I know sometimes we get into these seasons where it's not feeling good or it feels awkward, and we're like, well, lately, I'm not feeling good about it. Okay. When I take that aerial view, though, does the positive for the most part

outweigh the negative? Um? You know, according to researching, need for a relationship to be positive A ratio of five to one, five positive interactions to one negative in order for it to kind of balance out. So especially you know, for young people teaching them early for the most part, is it a pleasurable experience being together for the most part? And if the answer is yes, yes, But as soon as yeah, you start to think, I don't know if if if I even want this friendship, I don't know.

Sometimes that's enough. As soon as you want out, then maybe you should not be in. And because who wants to be friends with somebody who kind of wants out? You know, So sometimes that's enough and you don't need another person to validate. Well, that's a bad reason or

a good reason. Now, I will say, sometimes having this conversation with clients, we do discover that they have maybe unhealthy expectations of friendship to begin with, and then we need to talk about that because nobody feels good or the one time they have an issue they want to leave, or you know, so we talked through that where they expect that a friend should be everything or she should have to read your mind, and it's like, no, did you tell her that it made you uncomfortable? Well, no,

but I shouldn't have to tell her. Okay, let's talk about that, you know. And so sometimes our expectations of friendship itself. Oh, I don't need a therapist. I have my friends. Okay, well, talk in your friends is therapeutic. But they're not your therapist, you know. Is their experience of your friendship that every time you'll get together they've got to be your therapist? Is that fair? At some point that that's their role in the dynamic that is

your friendship, you know. So sometimes it's the expectation of what this woman is supposed to offer you that we need to assess first. Yeah, and it's time for a short break. Great, let's get back to it. Okay, let me ask you this. You're on the other side of it, Okay, how can you tell if you're being ghosted? That's such a great question. This is hard because this is something I'd like us to get better at collectively as women. I think, because we do the whole like, oh, no,

we're good. What are you talking about? We're fine? We know because we do that to suspect that that like, well, yeah, I have asked her if we're good and she said yes. So we don't know if we should believe it, because that's how we tend to operate. We don't, you know, confrontation. We don't want to look like we're being like a b you know. But also women trust their gut. So what happens for women is their gut is saying there's

definitely something wrong, there is something going on here. And when you're met with like, no, we're cool, it's good, it's good, but you know that's not true. You know, do you verbalize it? Do you make yourself vulnerable and go, look, I just is I can tell like you're pulling away? Or does that you know, make you feel like too insecure? Yeah? Well,

speaking of the word insecure. On that show Insecure, there's this moment where the two main stars of the show are grocery shopping together and one of them says, are we good? Like I feel like we've been off right and the other one's like, yeah, we've been off and they're like, okay, we'll talk about that. And it gave me goose bumps because I wish we did that more. Because again, if we put it in like a romantic sphere, of course we're going to address if something feels weird

to reconnect, but why not do that in friendship. So is that a little vulnerability and there's that risk of rejection there. She might minimize and be like, where are you talking about? Sure, that's all possible, but again, at least you gave her the opportunity. You tried to facilitate

that conversation by saying this. It could just be in my head, but we're okay, right because I know we chatted, you know, like every day, and now we we're kind of missing each other, you know here there every week. It's okay to say that. It doesn't have to be this formal, intense thing, but almost like a matter of fact. Now, if she is not honest with her feelings and says to you, yeah, we're good, that's on her. And of course,

you know, be observant. If I noticed that every time I try to hang out she's busy, but she doesn't work to negotiate with me, because a friend should be saying, ah, I can't get together on Sunday, but let's do Tuesday. She's working with me. If I've tried to reach out to you and it's like, yeah, I'm just busy, and there's no effort to try to kind of get on the same page, then you're right, like our intuition strong.

You know, she's not feeling it for whatever reason. But it's not our job to become paranoid and figure it out. As an adult, it is her responsibility to communicate why she's upset if she was invested in the friendship, and even if she's not, it's her job to say, like, actually, I am kind of upset about what you said last night. That's her job. But I've I've seen too many women who spiral because they're like, I know it in my

gut something's wrong, but the other friends not being honest. Well, at this point do we want to be at the mercy of waiting for them to give us clarity if they just won't? Yeah? And also how much clarity should they give? Meaning how honest should you be? I know I have one friend and her girlfriend kind of broke up with her by just saying, well, we had a good run, and she's still scratching her head. She's still like, what, we had a good run? Like what? I don't even

know what that means. On the other hand, you know, I don't necessarily want to sit down and be told like, well, you know, you're really clingy and I can't deal sometimes with your insecurities. You're always talking about should you lose weight? And it just gets really todious, like how truthful should the person be when breaking up? You know, it depends you know, I like the idea of saying what you need instead of what they're doing. But again, it depends

on a lot of things. It depends on y'all's history. If we have a lot of history, maybe I know you can absorb me being direct. It depends on what you've seen of how she responds. Is she very defensive, because in that case, I might see, Okay, every time you say anything to her, she is so defensive. I've determined it's not worth it because of the evidence she showed me that she's gonna get too crazy right now.

So it depends on kind of all those things. Is it helpful to list to that thing, you know, because sometimes it's a it's a turning point for her. So is it helpful for me to say listen? I mean, I know you're going through a lot right now, but I know every time we get together it's it's just really heavy and I want to support you, but I just I feel like I can't support you anymore emotionally. It's a lot for me. But that's helpful. I'm giving

you some clarity and why I'm leaving. It might help you to see that you need to get out of this funk because it's super negative or or whatever it is. So, you know, is the cre teake that you're giving Is the specificity helpful? What's the point in being specific? Does it give her clarity so she's not running around wondering why you ghosted her? Is that something she can work on? But yeah, but the story you're telling him a friend

who was like, well we had a good run. I mean that's you know, h Well, that'll make you crazy. I mean she's crazy. She's lost her mind now. And I also think that that's what ghosting does too. I have a few friends that have been ghosted and like they've been years trying to figure out what happened. And I find that really unfair. And I'll also tell you, Danielle that I had a friend for twenty five years, like really close, one of my best friends, and I

made a mistake. And I made a mistake because I text something about her, a creative negative thing about her to my husband and I accidentally texted it to her. I know, it's everybody's nightmare. Every time I tell this story, somebody they like, go under the couch or that. You know. It was one of those text mistakes, right, Yeah, I screwed up. I screwed up. I threw myself on the sword with her. I'm like, I was nervous, I was anxious. I was worried, and I said, I wasn't trying to

be malicious. Sa da da da da da. I sent her flowers, I baked her a cake. I made her a photo album of the past twenty years of us together. I was like, don't throw years of friendship away because I'm an idiot. And she never spoke to me again. And it's been a few years now, and I still don't understand it, you know, and it's hard for me not to go like, but that one thing, that one thing, you know, and which was just stupid on my part that couldn't be forgiven. And then other people say, look,

you don't know what was going on with her. It could have been a perfect storm of other things, and that was like the final like she could have been already feeling bad. But whatever it is, I find when you're the person that has been broken up with that it's hard to move on yourself if you've been just completely shut off and ghosted and you're forever going God, how what what could I have done better to get her to forgive me? So, you know, but it was hurtful,

and I think it's been really hurtful on both sides. Yeah. I was just having a session with somebody today and we're talking about all the things, and finally we get to the heart of the matter, and she says something about being ghosted last year and so how it's complicated, how she tried to move forward with other people, And yeah, it's hard because to your point, we don't know what's

going on with her. We don't know if for her it was something where now she feels like whenever she gets together with you, she doesn't know if you're genuinely enjoying this time or are you secretly hating it And you're telling somebody else that you're hating time with her, Like what's real and what's not? And even though you're so genuine in your apologies, and I love that you said, I mean, twenty five years compared to this one little instance but it's at the end of the day, her

right to say what's too much. And maybe it's a trust issue or whatever it is. But yeah, it does really suck when we do make a mistake, and we would like to hope that our gestures or our history will make the case for why they should forgive us. But they get to say, and it is very vulnerable to put the ball in their court, and we're waiting for them to say, I forgive you. Let's go back to normal. For some people, they feel like they can't go back to normal after that because they had a

certain idea of how this is supposed to go. But you know, in terms of moving on to that, we're not constantly ruminating about that. Women you know, are more likely to have, you know, anxiety and depression than men, and a lot of us because we ruminate, and so just fixating on that and wondering what did I do? What did I do? You know, accepting and I know this is easier said than done, accepting that things will probably never go back to the way they were. I

will probably never know. How can I move forward knowing that I will probably never know? Um? I always like to say, in terms of moving on. You have to find a way to stop repeating and rehearsing. So repeating is when we're agonizing over what happened and we're playing out like different scenarios. I mean, if only she said this, then I could have been well, that's not possible anymore. And then rehearsing for I mean, if I saw her on the street again, then I would say da da

da da. And so it's hard to to get let go of those two things. But we have to find a way to be grateful about the experience. So, at the risk of sounding life coachy, if there's any way we can start to get to you know what, I'm thankful I had her friendship for twenty years. I really needed her companionship. But I'm glad I had her when I did. I mean, and even if we're not totally there yet and our emotions at least we can kind of get there in our brain and our emotions will

catch up. Um. But the quicker we can get to I may never know. And with that information, how can I find a way to move forward instead of ruminating? Would be like the healthiest plan. Yeah, And I think it's a process like any breakup. And for me, it was what what could I have done? What could I have done? Or what can I do more? What could I do? What do for? And then it was anger, like, hey,

wait a minute, you know, I'm great. And then it finally got to the point where I went, maybe this was the friendship it was supposed to be and that was it, Like these twenty five years were great, you know, And maybe there are relationships that are different times, you know, and some last a lifetime and some last ten years and some last a year. So for me, that's what gave me final closure, this idea of my treasure that time, and that was the beginning, middle, and end of that friendship.

And now I, you know, triple check every time I text somebody because you know, now I get to be careful. Yeah yeah, but but you know, I think with friendships there are reasons that you have the friends you have in high school and then suddenly, and this is a generalization, you have kids and suddenly you are only hanging out with other women that have kids because it's all it's a village and you want information and you're sharing the

same things. And then you get older and then now, because of my age, I just realized all my friends are about to be empty nesters. So that's all we share is like, oh my god, our kids are going, our parents are aging. Should I get a necklift? And what am I going to do with my husband and my kids are gone? Like you know, so some of those friendships can last through all those different milestones in life, but some don't. Write and the fundamentals of friendship are,

you know, shared values, shared experiences, common interests. So as long as those keep shifting, the people in our lives will, you know, inevitably shift as well as we kind of explore different aspects of our identity. Becoming a mom for many of us is like who we are, and so having people who relate to that, who can accommodate that kind of lifestyle because now the way you live your life looks a little bit different, and so yeah, so it's to be expected the people around us will kind

of shift as well. You know. There's this concept it's called Dunbar's number, and the idea is that our brains only have the capacity to maintain one hundred and fifty connections, like the cognitive capacity to maintain one hundred and fifty connections. But then there are these circles. Like, imagine smaller circles inside of that number getting gradually smaller. At the heart of that circle, the smallest one is the number five, meaning we can only have the capacity for five close

meaningful relationships. And he says that if you have a romantic partner, he or she takes up two of those five spaces because of all that's required to maintain this relationship with your significant other. So that's the case, we've really got room for three to five close friendships. Now, I always say research should just be like a loose guideline because some people are like, well I've got six, Like, oh, okay, great, But you know, but this concept of you know, you

only have room for a certain amount of people. I say that to say, if the people in that bucket kind of change and maybe one person floats to the outer circle because of where you are, but they're still in your life, but they're kind of like a weaker tie. And then they come back because it's something that happened. That's okay, and it's to be expected, you know, especially those of us who move. You've got work from home.

More people are moving across the country. It's changing the dynamic of our relationships just because of something like that, Because you're twice as likely to make friends with somebody who's closer proximity to you. So she's gonna make new friends in her neighborhood or people she sees all the time at the coffee shop, and you know, not necessarily replace you. But there's a shifting that happens, like these tectonic plates underneath that are moving and grooving as as

we become different people. But those friends who are ride or die with you for twenty years, it's people who are able to support the different aspects of your identity as you continue to evolve, and not everyone can do that. Yeah, I also think that that sometimes a friendship is really the give and take. I don't have patience with somebody whose life is always great, you know what I mean, Like if I feel like I'm one always going like you know, oh my god, and and and the nuclear war?

What about this? And I'm worried about this? And then I was like not great, No, like my marriage is super good, everything's fine, fine, Fine, it's you know, you're playing strip poker with someone in a down PARKA Yeah, that's that's hard. You know, there's this concept by a friendship expert who name a Shasta Nelson, and she has this idea called friend timacy a frientimacy triangle. So if you imagine a triangle and a word on each of those sides, she says that we need these three things

in order to have like depth in our friendship. The first is positivity, and that appears at the base of the triangle because she argues that if it's not a pleasurable experience, I'm not going to elect to build anything else with you, So it's got to be positive for the most part. The next thing is consistency, so we see each other with some kind of rhythm, like I'm talking to you and checking in on you with some

kind of regularity. And finally, vulnerability, you know, So to your point, if I feel like I'm kind of opening up to you, but you want to pretend that everything is great and you don't share, it feels off balanced. And so if we're looking for more in our existing friendships, I always encourage us will think, how can you increase the positivity level? Have you all gotten into a rhythm

of chronic complaining inventing all the time? I mean sometimes, yeah, that's what we do, but all the time, you know, and inconsistency. Are we seeing each other or checking in regularly and then finally vulnerability or are we opening up?

Are we taking risks of being rejected? But we're still going to put ourselves out there with each other because those are the three things that help us to feel close and for a lot of people, if we're able to identify what's lacking there, it kind of solves the mystery of of of what's going on and why we feel unsatisfied in certain relationships. So with that example, you know, feeling like, well, I'm opening up there, but she's pretending

everything's fine. She needs to humanize herself somewhere, like you can't relate to someone who everything's fine, Well, then what's what's the point? You know, what am I here to support you through? Or I can't relate to that as

a person, so I don't feel connected to you. And then you know that consistent rhythm we talked about earlier, and then you know positivity overall, that five to one ratio, and so I always feel like that's a good brothers see like overall and my feeling connected and if not, and I want to be more connected. It helps give me some language to understand what it is I need to be pursuing to experience that more. Right, we'll be

right back, and we're back. It's interesting watching my teenage girls because you know, teenage girls are full on into everything you're talking about. I mean, teenage girls should have a friendship coach like they do a college counselor, because it's all girl drama all the time, you know, and then you bring the boys in. There's all of that, and so I think these are all good lessons for

that age as well. And I sometimes, you know, one of my daughters will come in, you know, see me angry about something or see me crying about something, and I'm like, it doesn't change, you know what I mean, Like I'm still dealing with me and girls, or I'm still dealing with you know, try to figure it out now,

believe me, because it'll be a calmer life. Because on the other side of it, my eighties six year old mother, you know, there's a few kind of great things she said to me over the years, like don't go to the Bahamas in July. And another great thing she said to me was never underestimate your female friendships. You know, she's like, that is what's going to get you through life, and that resonated with me in a big way. I

love hearing that. You know. It's it's funny. I meet this TikTok a couple weeks ago, and I did not expect it to go viral. It was about how our relationships with our mother kind of affects how we approach female friendship. So if you had a mom who was saying you don't need these girls, or you can't trust people, I mean, things like that will affect how you enter into adulthood. And so many of us are growing up

on learning certain attitudes toward female friendship. Do you find that that women do with other female friends what they do sometimes with men or women they're in love relationships with, where they meet somebody another woman and you go, oh, this is gonna be my best friend, this is gonna make everything good, you know what I mean. It's like the joke is like, oh my god, we're gonna braid each other's hair and do face fast every night. Like I think adult women have that sort of same thing too,

of like you know, are you my bestie? Are you my best see? Yeah? Yeah, you know it's hard because like, I've definitely had that too, where you have like that instant chemistry and you're like, oh my okay, like you're my soul mate, you know. Yeah, And so I think we've all had that, and I always say, like, yeah, take pleasure in that, take delight in that when you

meet that woman and it feels very easy. However, if you have a belief that that will sustain you, guys for the rest of your friendship, then you are misguided.

Or if you're using that as the barometer of whether or not to enter into friendship or I need to feel chemistry right away, then that would be misguided as well as a matter of fact, there's a study in which they asked women, do you believe that making friends should be easy or you expect that it will take some work, And they follow these women over a span

of five years. The women who said I think friendship should be easy, we're reporting greater feelings of loneliness than the women who said, I expect I'll probably have to work at it. And so even from the beginning, keeping those expectations that I'll probably have to communicate my needs and be patient with her, and she's gonna be patient with me and we'll talk it through. We have to

expect and normalize that that will happen. But all this imagery we've been fed on the media of instant chemistry and braid each other's hair. If we don't have that in real life, we're questioning everything. But that's not real life, you know. So the instant chemistry thing, I think is nice, and I think sometimes we're secretly you know, I once hurt another friendship experts say we're secretly auditioning for a best friend sometimes when we meet women and we wanted

to be totally perfect and have all the things. And I always say, if we're keeping a real you don't have all the things for your friends either. There's something you lack for them, but they love you and and you still offer a lot of value to their world. Give me some of your favorite notions about women's friendship. You must have some kind of inspirational quote that you've put on your refrigerator or you've instagrammed. Yeah, you know

one thing I'll say. I know I keep saying research says, and I sound like Steve Workele over here, but you know, but I like it. Smarty pants, I get. You know, I think it's interesting because you know, we're all familiar

with fight or flight as a stress response. But when they did that study over again, they did it with women in the nineties early nineties, I think, and they found that we have a greater range of responses to stress, and two of those responses are tend or befriend meaning we will seek out the company of another woman, and when we come together, we produce more levels of oxytocin, which actually calms the stress that we have. And so I always say, like, even on a you know, physiological,

biological level, female friendship is so life giving. You know, whenever I do make videos and stuff about female friendships so beautiful. Naturally, there are people in the comments who are like, well, I've had women who've been awful. I get along better with men, and all those experiences are valid, they really are. But at the end of the day, there's nothing like going through this life in the same way. We share the experience of being a woman in this world.

And for me that is enough. And I you know, understand where we're different, and you know, interracial friendships, Okay, I'm going to experience things that you don't all that, but being a woman in this world, I'm going to need some friends who can share that experience with me. And I really do think it's that simple. Well, let me just tell you something that just came to my mind. And maybe it's because of what's happening in the world

right now. I think if you put all women in the war room in the situation room, or you put all men in the war room, there are going to be two completely different outcomes. And uh, I would assume a more peaceful conclusion if it were all women in the war room. Danielle. I have been barraging you with questions because I'm so fascinated by the subject. But at the end of my podcast, I like to turn it around and say, do you have a question for me?

And it can be about anything. Well, I want to get you to weigh in on something I was debating with friends. Okay, good, okay. So you know how you have like books that you love or this this this song that you just love. When you find out that the artists so like the author or the singer themselves, did something problematic, or they have this crazy history or whatever, are you able to separate like, oh, this artist is

crazy and they've done these things. But man, I love that song or are we supposed to like not love that song anymore. We had a little debate among my friend group, and I was curious as to you how you feel about that, how you separate the artists from the art My feeling is that, like, let me, let me say this. I'm not behind cancel culture. You know, I do think people deserve second chances. So it's hard for me to answer because I do think you have

to be specific about what it is. I'll tell you one that I grapple with is Woody Allen, because you know, I like his earlier films, I really do, and yet he's never been convicted, but there has been obviously court cases about child molestation, so it has changed how I look at his films. Yes, once I have the information, it's hard for me to separate the artists from the art But it depends on the degree of the crime of the artist. I guess that is that what I'm

trying to say. Okay, I just realized that was kind of an intense question. No, no, but but but the reason you're talking about it with your girlfriends is the exact same reason I talk about it with my girlfriends, because I'm trying to figure it out too, Like when do we when to become too totalitarian where we're like, no, they're gone, you know, cancel, And when do we go, Okay, they made a mistake, they said this thing and they apologize for it. Do they get a second chance or

oh they're a child pornographer? Know what I mean? Like it's there are degrees. I don't mind a hard question. I just um, it's not a succinct answer. I'm still trying to figure out, just like you are. Okay, they'll tell me what you think. I guess it does depend on like what it is. I was asking because there's this book that's being turned into a movie and I'm like,

oh my god, it's so good. I can't wait. And I had people say like, oh, you know, she's problematic because she did this one thing, and I was like, oh, but I'm conflicted, like that's still one of my favorite books. And right now if I go, do I look like I'm less feministy if I'm like, but I still want to see that movie though, you know, so we're just kind of having that conversation. I thought I was just curious Danielle, I could stay on for a few hours. There are so many layers to it, and I just

applaud what you do. I think my nineteen year old should be one of your clients. Yeah, no, I appreciate you. I'm so glad to see that more women are making space to have this conversation. It's so important and so thank you for letting you come on and lend my voice to the conversation. Wow. I think Danielle is amazing. And I have to say when I thought about the idea of a friendship coach, I was a little skeptical. I didn't really understand what a friendship coach would do

that like a therapist couldn't do. I mean, listen, romantic relationships are incredibly difficult, but girlfriend relationships are really hard. When I've broken up with boys, it's been like, uh, you cheated on me, or I don't like you anymore and we're done. It's so much more difficult with our girlfriends. And the other thing that I think is so interesting about a lot of what daniel said is you never

outgrow the stuff. We love our girlfriends and they give us so much strength and a floor for everything we do. But they are relationships and they can be fraught, and I think we could all use a girlfriend coach. H. Thank you for listening to Go Ask Gali. If you like more info, check out our show notes. Be sure to subscribe, rate and review the podcast, and follow me on social media on Twitter at Ali e Wentworth and

on Instagram at the Real Ali Wentworth. Now. If you'd like to ask me a question or suggest a guest or a topic to dig into, I'd love to hear from you, and there's a bunch of ways to do it. You can call or text me at three to three three six four six three five six, or you can email a voice memo right from your phone to Go Ask Gali podcast at gmail dot com. If you leave a question, you just might hear it and go ask Alli. Go Ask Alli is a production of Shonda land Audio

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