The Boy in the (Quarantine) Bubble w/ Dr. Cara Natterson

something I know nothing about. I have two teenage girls and my husband, George Stephanopolis, which I guess you could call a teenage boy, but as a parent myself, I know they were all curious about how all of our children are adjusting to the new normal. We've talked a lot in previous episodes about teenage girls, so I'm excited today to talk about the boys. I don't know what they're thinking, what they're doing, and I know there's a lot of stuff that has to do with the penis.

Before we dive in, we have a very, very very special guest coming in at the beginning of my podcast, my gorgeous eighteen year old girl, Elliott Stephanopolis. Yes, she was in the studio for another episode and she has a few things to say about teenage boys. To get off her chest. I feel really secure in who I am as a person, Like I know I'm a good person, I know I'm a loyal friend, I know I'm a good daughter. I feel safe in that, whereas in my

exterior I don't feel as comfortable and secure. What is it going to take for you to feel comfortable and secure? And I don't know, Um, I do not know. But isn't that part of being a teenage girl is your body is changing and girls get secure and insecure about certain things. Not only girls, boys are super insecure. I always never I knew that teenage boys were insecure until I was a teenage girl who knew teenage boys and teenage boys are just as insecure as teenage girl about

their bodies. Uh, I'm sure about their height, right, heights a big thing for boys with acne, all that kind of stuff, right, No, yeah, height, acne, hair, abs, arms, legs, physical bolt like all those things. But like just for me, like I'm insecure about my facial features, a guy is just as insure about the spacial features of the teenage boy. I feel people don't understand that it's also hard to be a teenage boy. Guys have the same amount of insecurity as we do, in the same stress as we do.

It's just different. Elliott, thank you for stopping by. I always appreciate your incredible insight. And if you're listening to this podcast, write your college essay now to get to an expert's opinion. I'm speaking today with Kara Naderson. She's a pediatrician, consultant and New York Times bestselling author of numerous puberty and parenting books, including my absolute favorite, Decoding Boys. Kara,

thank you for being on the show today. So what I want to do with you is bray down teenage boys in general and then figure out how we deal with some of these aspects of these guys in a pandemic. Okay, so let's start with um. One thing I can say about my girls is that they're very They're very social. They need to be close. Uh, the whole idea of girl friends is a very big deal to them. But teenage boys not so much. I mean, they don't get

as close and verbal as girls. Right. As a society, I think we sometimes gender things that don't deserve gendering. So boys definitely get close with one another, no question about it. Um, it's the verbal piece that's the part that the average girl is chattier when she goes into puberty than the average voice. Doesn't mean it doesn't go the other way for some kids. But the the need for connection and the social piece of all of this, and the transformation of body and and world during puberty,

those were really very similar for girl. You know, I my daughters had a book in school, um, and it was sort of a cartooned sex education book called Practically Normal I think it was called. And it was all pictures of like genitalia and all the differences and and I, you know, I'd have to read two of my daughters from this book because it was mandated by the school.

And it was always pictured that the girls were, um much more self aware, but self conscious, like they're always looking in the mirror, brushing their hair or hiding their breasts. And the boys were always depicted as just kind of like out there literally with their dicks hanging out. And so do you find that to be true? I find it to be true in every book, But in real life no, because you also have a teenage girl and

a teenage boy. I do. I have a just seventeen year old girl and a fifteen year old boy year old girl. So there you go into tears so um so the stereotypes of all for a reason. But they're old and they're dated. Let's just sort of turn back time by about twenty to thirty years and think about how when we were growing up, no one talked openly to us about puberty, bodies, no one talked about periods. You know, in large group settings. It wasn't a whole

ware your heart on your sleeve situation for girls. That has really evolved in the last couple of decades, right, Why, I think it has a lot to do with women finding voice. I think, um, you know this book series that I'm involved with, it preceded me the Karen Keeping of you came out, became a voice for middle school girls. You own what was happening in a very friendly and

warm way. Social media me too. They're all of these things that layer up to make girls feel like they should take the voice that they're coming into in puberty and use it. Not for boys. Right, we are still in where we were in night for boys. Where boys go into puberty, they get a little quieter. Parents go, oh, he's in puberty. Let's let him shut the door and lock the world out that's just what they do. Or you know, I don't want to know what goes on

behind that door. That's the other path. But either way, they let their boys shut down and and shut up literally, And so I think me to really UM taught us as parents that girls and boys need language. That the thing that is going to protect you most in your transition from adolescence to adulthood is being able to articulate your experience and what didn't didn't happen and why and talking to someone about what isn't isn't okay. We know we have to give our girls that language. How are

we not giving our boys that language? So that's the turning point. It's so interesting because with my two girls, particularly at this moment, I feel like there's a whole new vernacular for them, and I find that the conversations I have with them, whether they're about masturbation or their periods or whatever, is much more advanced and much more

open than it was when I was a teenager. Um even how they how they change the language of Like my daughter will say, you don't say you you lose your virginity, Mom, It's not something to lose or it's not something to give. I'm not giving. You know, I wouldn't give somebody my Virginia. You know very um you know has a feminist bland bent to it, and they're very conscious of that. Um. I do know that now boys, teenage boys are having to learn all kinds of new

agendas and words like consent um. And I have friends with teenage boys who are terrified because you know, they're afraid to make a wrong move or say the wrong thing. And this is a whole new landscape for teenage boys, right, Yes, And I write a lot about consent because I think it's the best example of why we need to talk to our sons. We talk to our daughters when my daughter shuts the door on me, When your daughters shut the door on you, you go in there and you

have that conversation. Right. My job, I think when I talk about boys and parenting boys, is to connect the dots for parents from what is happening in your home now to that exact scenario of consent when they are not in your house and going, Okay, how can I make sure that my sons are protected in that scenario? Oh? Oh,

I teach them how to talk. I teach them how to have conversation, how to ask questions, and how to articulate what they want to because you think that we we lived in this old model of you know, it's almost like you have to protect the girls. So we talked to them it's all about protecting, protecting, And with the boys, it was always well, boys will be boys, like there was you know, just bananas, yes, bananas. Yeah. So let's take um, let's take the hormones, and let's

take the video games. Let's take all the stuff that kind of if I made a painting of a teenage boy, these are all the things I would show, and let's put it in a pandemic. So since we're starting to talk a little bit, yeah it's Friday, Um, let's talk about kind of the hormones and this the sexual stuff first, because I would imagine right now for teenage boys and they're starting to socialize and have parties and again, but their hormones must be raging. I mean, they must be

losing their minds. Okay, So how about if we do a minute on hormones and a minute on brain development and talk about the intersection of those two things, because that is exactly what you're getting at right, allow me everything. So here we go sixty seconds of everything. Um. Girl, puberty is driven by a bunch of hormones, but estrogen

is the lead. Right. All these hormones they circulate both above and below the neck, so they're responsible for all the body changes, but they also impact mood and and the way you interact with people and the way your brain works. Right, So estrogen for girls, by the way, girl puberty on average starts between ages eight and nine. Now,

this is very different than why so early? Because because did the New Puberty, which is a book that is now actually like three or four years old, fantastic book that basically says, we're trying to figure it out, and uh and they aren't. They're scientists all over trying to figure it out. But it's two full years earlier than when we were going through puberty. But puberty takes twice

as long now. So puberty for girls estrogen driven. Um, and estrogen has a whole set of impacts on the brain pubey for boys testosterone driven okay, and puberty for boys on average starts between ages nine and ten. Everyone thinks boys are not in puberty until their twelve thirteen, fourteen some aren't, but the vast majority are. That's just the first couple of years of puberty. For boys. All that's happening is their testicles are growing, because that's the

testosterone machine. Their testicles are where you make testosterone. So it's so it's not the first time you see pubic hair. Care has nothing to do actually with the ability to reproduce. It is on a totally different hormonal pass. So a lot of parents will see pubic hair or under oarm hair and they think their kids in puberty. Technically they're not. It's complicated. No. I found that out with my eldest because we thought she was going through puberty early because

she had hair. And then our sweet pedatrician said, no, it's ethnic. She's half Greek, and yeah, there you go. I mean right, it's just hair down there, has nothing to do with being able to have to reproduce at any point. So that's the hormone piece. And yes, testosterone can make boys fail horny in the same way that estrogen and all the other female hormones can make girls fail horny. But that's not what is at the crux of the pandemic piece. What's at the crux of the

pandemic piece is the maturation of the brain. So the brain matures very slowly and very linearly from the time you're born until you're about thirty. And what happens is two things. The brain grows and drinks, and grows and drinks. You use some parts, you lose other parts that you don't use. It's called pruning. That's one piece of brain development. The other piece of brain development is called mylination, and

that's the insulation of the neurons in the brain. Why does millination matter because an insulated neuron sends a message much much faster. It's like if you plugged your phone into a charger and there was none of the white plastic coating on the outside, you could charge your phone and just take forever. So that's what happens in your brain. When you have a milinated nerve, a signals travels really fast, and when you have an unmolinated nerve, it travels really slowly.

The part of the brain that is last to mature, last to milinate is the prefrontal cortex. That's significant because that's the part of the brain that makes smart, long term consequential decisions. The part of the brain that makes risky and bad decisions is fully developed by the time you're in about fourth or fifth grade, and the part of the brain that can override it and be smart is not going to get there till you're almost thirty. And that's your teenager who's trying to run out the

front door and have sex with someone. As soon as the gates are lifted in pandemic, right or whatever it is, or vapor, you know, you can fill in any any activity you want. So that's the issue with with the brain development is it's an imbalance in the brain. And girls have it too. By the way, we all know the kids who can access their prefrontal cortex very easily. They're the ones who are always making a good decision. They're the ones who you never have to worry about

that girl. Right. Why, well, those kids have taught themselves to wait a second. The message can get to that part of that brain. It exists, it just takes more time, and they have taught themselves to access that part of their brain to make the smartyr decisions. So when you have teenagers in pandemic, you have the intersection of raging hormones and undeveloped prefrontal cortices, and that combination makes for really dumb decisions. So what are some of those dumb decisions.

I'm just curious. They're dumb decisions that have been made for centuries, right, it's not just specific to this time, but in this time where we know we have to wear masks, and we know we have to keep six ft of distance, and we know we need to wash our hands, and we know we need to, you know,

limit the number of people were around. When freedom is allowed in a different way, when some of the rules are lift did it's very hard to turn down um that the brain stimulation you get from a peer group, the limbic system, the emotional part of the brain is just on fire when kids are around, and it feels so good. It's a dopamine hit. It feels great to

have your friends around. And so then they take the masks off, and then they get closer than six feed and then someone starts drinking, and then you really lose your inhibitions, and then you know all thatts are off. But it's it's the first bad decision in pandemic that

starts at all. We're going to take a short break and we'll be right back, welcome back with more go ask Gali, So, how could they How could colleges possibly think that they could open when we know that these are teenagers whose brain hasn't fully developed, and that when they are in this situation, they're going to want to do everything you just said. Yeah, I have not understood the decision for colleges to open other than being a

financially given decision. I have not understood that decision from day one. It makes no sense. Only very small colleges that can essentially create a sort of an island of you know, screening, but they're not impenetrable. And what are What should we say to our teenage girls and our teenage boys right now when they're in states that are slowly opening up? I mean, how do you speak to the teenage brain when it's not that receptive to being hearing? You have to keep your face mask on. Well, what's

so interesting is it is receptive. I mean people say to me all the time, my kid doesn't want to listen to anything. I have to say my two answers to that are as follows. First of all, they do as we do, not as we say. So you want your kid to wear a mouth, put on a man ask. You want your kid to keep distance, and you keep distance. You want your kid to not go out with friends, don't go out with friends yourself. Right, This is like

a no brainer. It's like when they were two. Right, you don't want your kid to cross the street without going to a crosswalk and looking both ways. You're not going to jaywalk with your kid. It's all the same, right, It's like parenting one on one. So that piece I think is really important to remind parents of because it really empowers the kids to make the right decision. But the other, probably the most important parenting advice that I

give across the board is explain your rationale. Always answer every limit with why. And you're not apologizing. You're not saying I'm so sorry. I'm setting this role around. So you're saying, hey, I don't want you going to a party because and tell him why. Because it feels impossible to me that you can really follow all of these rules. And you're living in a house with people who could get really sick and die from COVID, and it's my job to help protect everyone who lives under this room.

How can I send you talk to them like rational human beings. They are really really smart. They most of them are connected to the world in ways that we do not appreciate. They have news sources that may not be our news sources, but they are solid news sources. And they know a lot about a lot. And if you don't talk to them as if they know a lot about a lot, they feel patronized, they feel caged, and then it is their job to test the limit. Right, Um it's I had spoken in an earlier podcast about

social media and girls. You know that, particularly during the pandemic, there's a lot of sexualization and a lot of board girls doing bikini shots and and sexting and whatever. What are boys doing when in lockdown or when they're they're in quarantine is all about energy going into Fortnite to video games, because I can't imagine they're on social media as much as girls. All Right, we give boys the pass on all the stuff that we're afraid of our girls doing, like the nudes and all that. They do

not get the pass. Let me tell you they are taking just as many pictures of themselves. They're engaging in all the same stuff the girls are there. Again. Dopamine. Dopamine in their brains, so they are just as turned on by it UM sort of neurochemically as the girls are. UM. The biggest difference between the way girls and boys exchange images UM and sexualized themselves is that UM girls are

almost always identifiable in their sexualized imagery. Even if it's a a nude shot and they're lifting their shirt, they almost always cut a piece of their chin or their neck or a necklace. They always where. There's always some sort of identifier. When boys are going that far down that road, they're aiming camera down, Uh, you don't know that it's you know, Johnny's left toe that you're seeing right there. There is no identifying feature in a nude

for a boy. So boys get the pass on a set of behaviors that girls don't because the boys aren't as identifiable. And I think it's a big mistake we make as parents do not recognize that the boys are just as engaged in these activities. The boys are also on social media a ton um, whether it's UH for you know, shopping, socializing UM. Wherever we we assume girls are, boys are there too. They're there. They are also gaming,

and they're using gaming platforms as social networks. They tend to out game girls, meaning there are more boys on those platforms and girls. But we should not kid ourselves either in that direction. Plenty of girls are on them, and so what are the boys doing in a pandemic? When it comes to it, has there been a rise of sexting or dick pics or all that kind of stuff.

The data we have on sexting in and all of it is like is the most recent data, right, So everything we talk about as new research is already so stale. It's three iPhones ago, you know, And that's part of the issue. I will tell you though, my experience in my own house has been very similar to a number of the parents that I've talked to across the country. So my son was multi syllabic for about two years, I mean, just a grunt and a nothing right, And

it was ridiculous. It was like, you know, a central casting and I knew all the tools and I did all the stuff and and it's still you know, it's really hard to bring them out of their shell. You know, it brings them out of their shell pandemic because suddenly they can't leave the house. There is no other human being around them engaging with them in real life. Well, it's not so bad. Maybe I'll talk to her and

utter more than a grunt. And this is what I've heard from so many of the other boy parents that I know, which is it's not that they've become as jack as the girls, but chatty er. Yes. Are they opening their doors more? Yes? As pandemic lightens up and the restrictions lighten up, are we seeing them go back to their quieter ways. Yes, yes, we are so interesting. But so that's a that's kind of a positive thing out of a very negative situation. It's a great thing.

It's a great thing. I mean, it has. It's been great for families in general, and I think it's in a lot of ways been great for for teenage girls. But it's it's interesting to hear that about the about the teenage boys. Yeah, I mean for families that have not faced tremendous loss, it's been amazing. It's been such a bifurcated experience for families that face loss and hardship, there is you know, it's it's truly unimaginable to the families who haven't faced up. There's no way of understanding

what this is like for them. For the families who have simply had a retreat experience, it's been I think by and large positive. I mean, sometimes kids don't get along and that's rough, and that that really does that really does happen. I have to ask this because this is such an antiquated notion, but do you think that the viewing of pornography with teenage boys has escalated tremendously during this time? So I would imagine, so, first of all,

boys watch a lot of porn. Okay um girls do too, by the way, but boys, depending upon what study you believe, they about fifty of all boys have seen online porn by the time they're anywhere from eleven to thirteen years old. So by the time boys graduate from middle school, far more than half of them have seen online porn. And it's not a nude picture. It's not boobs, it's not It is hardcore online porn, violent, aggressive hardcore, not the

sexual narrative you want to be handing your son. It's not the playboy magazines that are husbands used to sneak right, No, it is not. And you can't rewrite the story for them. You can't help them unsee it. And Most parents are have their heads so far in the sand because it's so upsetting to even think about. They don't have any clue what their kids are seeing. So I get a lot of calls about it when boys stumble onto it. The pornographers, they are on social media sites getting your

kids eyeballs onto their porn sites. Say, are giving it to your kids for free? It is one click away. It is makes very good sense. They are taking a brain that is not yet mature, and they are saying to that brain, let these images basically hardwire a path in your brain that makes your brain feel good so that you will become a paying customer one day. Right, very good business strategy. So yeah, I think they're all the ones who are exposed to it are all vulnerable

to it in pandemic And what should parents? How do parents talk to a teenage boy about pornography? Oh, this is how it goes in my house. It's like this, um, hey, can you pass the salad? And by the way, let's talk about porn again. Right, it's I mean, it's just a nothing burger. It's like, did you put sunscreen on? Let's talk about porn. It a hundred thousand different times over the course of their adolescence, you need to be talking about You see a bus drive by with a

really creepy ad on it, talk about it. You see you hear about a movie and it's you know, it's supposed to be really salicious, talk about it. You listen to lyrics of any number of songs that any kid listens to, that's you know, sort of describing. You know, we all want our kids to have healthy sexual lives when they grow up. That's the goal. So if you're listening to music that is telling our boys how to beat up on women, talk about like, don't just turn

it off. Listen to the words and then talk about it. Everything is a teachable moment. So all right, well, want to walk me through this a little. It just because I'm very curious. Um. So, I have a son and I go through his history on his computer and I see that he's been watching a lot of porn. Um I'm afraid if I say anything, he's just going to recoil and say, like I do not shut up. So how do I start the conversation? And what are the points that I'm trying to make? Besides it's dirty and

un Christian, right, Okay, so let me. I want to take you back to your premise. Let's start with I go through his history. Any parent who's going through their kids computer history without their kids knowledge is already starting in a really tricky spot because then the fight is about how you violated my privacy. So you have to stop and think, as a parent, how am I going to approach their safety without creating a new issue that will take us down a rabbit hole we don't need

to go down. So in my house, the devices, you know, if we bottom there are porn is the most It's the most successful online industry by far. Okay, so there are a lot of people who work really hard to get you on their site. So it's not about me not trusting you, it's about knowing what goes on out there. Okay, So let's just begin with that premise. If you're going through their history, you need to have a plan for how you're going to address that you're going through their history. Okay.

I always recommend that you say to your kids, let's look together. Okay, then you're not snooping. Let's look together at your computer history. Yeah, let's look at your screen time, Let's look at your phone history. Let's look at your computer history. By the way, kids who are really addicted to porn, they are on laptops looking at it and stuff. But kids who are not addicted in kids who are just catching glimpses of it are often just on phones.

So don't don't go to the laptop thinking you're going to find you're gonna strike gold on the laptop and forget about the phone, which is really their entry level device. Um. So you know, in your home, one thing you may want to do, and it doesn't matter if you've never done it before. You set a new kind of standard. Hey, I'd love to understand where you go on your device. I feel like that's a way that I comparent you better and I can understand a little bit more about

what you're seeing and what you're learning. So I'd like to look with you. That in some homes is a major negotiation, okay, and it may take time to get there, but it is worth the investment of those conversations. So now you get the history, and now you can have a productive conversation. He's not in trouble, by the way, no matter how you set it up, no child should be in trouble. For having looked at porn. It is not their fault. They did not ask to go look

at a gang rate. I'm telling you they did not want to see it either. They ended up there because the pornographers are really good at getting their eyeballs. So don't ever approach it in a shaming way because they already feel ashamed. So if you find it or when you find it, the conversation is not oh my god, oh my god, oh my god, you did this. The conversation is I'm sorry that this is the sex that

you're seeing. You know, I want you to have a really healthy sex life when you're older, and this is not modeling that for you. And so I'm really sad that this is what you're looking at, and that's what I want to talk about. And then do you break it down for them? Do you say, like this, do you see this woman, she's actually not that happy or she's It depends how old the boy is or the girl. It depends, um what you're what your temperament is, what

his temperament is. It depends on life experience. I mean, for an eleven year old, yeah you bet. You have to walk them through it. For a sixteen year old. I'm not sure that will help the dynamic. I'm not sure that's productive. Uh. It just depends upon everything that goes into it. But the most important thing is, as the parent, you constantly put on the lens of I'm not shaming you, I'm not mad at you. And the other thing is it's not one conversation. So when you

discover the porn, usually the conversation is over. That's really a big thing, and both of you probably need to sit with it for a little bit. You can have lots of conversations over time, and you can think about it and he can think about it. But if you just think it's going to be a one and done forget about it now. A quick word from our sponsors, welcome back to go ask Ali. Let's get back to the discussion. What are you hearing from parents of teenage

boys during this time? I mean, you've been getting calls. What are What are you feeling? Is a predominant issue right now. Depression and anxiety was really the big one early on. It has gone away, it has subsided a bit. Now. I anticipate we will see it rear its head big time in the winter because unless this virus doesn't behave the way almost every virus behaves. Um, we're going to get another surge of it when the weather gets cold,

and that will drive more isolation, depression, anxiety. UM. I think there's also you know, middle and high school are times when kids very normally will grapple with issues around mortality. Right. Um, there are these peaks that happened mid middle school and mid high school where um, it becomes very real. And when you're living in the middle of a pandemic and you turn on the news and there are death tolls on the news and you've got what this is bananas

and my brain can handle it. I know where to file that your brain can handle it, But I'm not sure my fifteen year old brain puts a death toll in the same spot and manages it in the same way. So I think that's not depression anxiety. That is sort of this realization of mortality and fear that go along with it that I think we're going to seem more of um as as we continue to normalize what is happening.

I mean, that's really I think that's so true. I mean, you know, my two teenage girls are kind of my guinea pigs, and I've noticed that, you know, the anxiety and the depression was definitely there at the beginning, and still it's still an undercurrent now. But I think that the idea that people were dying really affected them in

different ways. But my youngest, my fifteen year old, it it scared her in a way, um that we had to kind of soothe her, you know, kind of waking up at three in the morning, and and you know almost what had happened before when she learned what the Taliban was, and it's it's almost like when a kid is young and they read about evil and fairy tales and they go, what is this evil that everyone's talking about? Who is this you know, mean queen? Um. For her,

it was oh my god, people are dying. That I could die, you could die, you know, and that she had a kind of sense of, um, you know, people close to her could potentially die, and that was something I wasn't really expecting, you know. I was so focused on their isolation that I didn't realize. And I'm married to a journalist, so like, the news is on all the time, and it never occurred to me that the

mortality factor of all this was having such an effect. Yeah, and then and and when you layer on top of that that um, there are now hundreds of thousands uh of families that are being devastated by lass um. You know, family members who get sick and go to the hospital, you can't visit the family members who die. Think about it, you're eight year, ten year, twelve. It's an invisible virus. I'm not sure where I got it. And it could take my mother or father, because it took her mother

and it took his father. And in communities that are devastated, communities that are financially unstable, communities where there's no health equity and no access to health care, those kids are literally living a nightmare. As a country, I think it's high time for us to come together. And maybe it does a unified group of parents to say, God, we have got to help all of our kids. And that begins with the kids who are literally on the front lines because their frontline parents are gone. How do we

support them? What do we do and how do we just like our kids do as we do with a mask, and if we put it on, they put it on. How do we model the behavior of taking care of others and of empathizing. True empathy is the key I think is really truly the key to raising children who will then help shift the world in the right direction, which may help with the very fortunate kids, Um, with their depression and their anxiety. Right yes rather than two yes,

I think. Um, I think that's important. Are you trying to create such a movement? So my kids always tell me that I can't create any of this. It has to come authentically from them. But I try to model it. I'll tell you, I launched this company during pandemic, and it was supposed to launch with bras for tween and teen girls. Then they're so comfortable, But we launched it. Oh my god, I do um. And but we launched with masks. And and you know, from day one, we've

always sent maths into areas that have no access to mask. Me. It's just you know, and who they're they're I'm not the only one. There are thousands of me who are trying to make and donate masks. Uh, you know, let's all pull together, let's all just model the behavior. I completely agree. UM. Looking outside in at the life of

a teenage boy and as you perfectly put it, decoding boys. Um, how do you talk to teenage boys about anything that's uncomfortable, whether it's pornography or or vaping or you know whatever we kind of sweat about before we knock on the door and go in fill in the blank horror to that. Yeah. Um, so one of the very best tricks is not making eye contact with your child. That's so funny because it goes against what my intuition would be too. I'd want to connect with the eyes, right, You want to look

them in the eye and have the moment right. But think about it, Um, you're asking them a question ston or calling them out on something that is so embarrassing or awkward or shameful, or or just they want to la la la their way through it, right, So how do you manage that as parents? Well, Um, if you don't look at them right, then they get to be alone with their thoughts and they they're not as embarrassed, they're not as awkward. I mean, think about it this way.

When your girls were a little and you would turn off the lights at night, right, isn't that when the conversations would start, or when I was driving the car, they forgot I was there because I wasn't making eye cut, So it's like an not in there. Yeah, so it's like an old Freudian psycho analysis blueprint. Lie on the couch. I'll sit behind you. You can't see me, and soon

you'll be confessing that's right. I mean, I will tell you that with boys in puberty in particular, if if there's a quiet boy, um and the vast majority are quiet for a long time, and if they shut their door, which the vast majority do, and you don't know how to get in that door, you know what you can do. Sit on the other side of the door and just

start talking. Right. That works wonder. So I have had times with my son where something has gone down and I need to talk to him, and I know if I look at him, he will either start to cry. Because he's such a sweet boy, he's the best. He better not listen to this. I don't ever humiliate him. I don't read about puberty. Um. But you know he'll either he'll either get upset emotional or he'll to shut down.

And so if I stay on the other side of the closed door and just sit on the floor and I say to him, Hey, I got to talk to you about something, and I'm just going to stay out here for a second. And I just want to run this by you, and I am not even physically in his space. It's a game changer. It's a game changer. But you get you've got to get to the point where you can look each other in the eye. You don't want like, you don't have to shut the door

to a conversation. So what are they? What are these teenage boys doing in their rooms? Right and they closed the door. Everyone thinks all they're doing is masturbating all day long, and they may very well be masturbating a lot in there. I don't know. I mean I always get calls from parents like what's with the half hour shower? And I really I need to exactly but what are they doing? They are just taking a break from the world. I mean, think about this last January, January before pandemic.

A boy and a girl come home from school. They've been gone all day long. They've been socializing with their friends, they've been performing for their teachers. Maybe they've done an extracurricular sport or activity. After hours and hours and hours their home, what do they want to do? The stereotypical girl wants to download and debrief and tell you about it, and the stereotypical boy wants to just shut it out and go have some time of quiet. That at sort

of caricature exists for a reason. I believe it's hormonally driven. There's no data that shows that testosterone makes you want to shut out the world. But I don't think anyone's ever done that study because I can't find one. So if someone listening has done that study, send it my way. So they just want to be still. Because my girls are just chatty, chat chat chat. I would love to have a boy that was just quiet, would you having

one to eat? Yes? Yes and no. Right, you want to chat chat chat with your girl because get everything up right, but then you're done, That's what I mean, way before she's done. Right, So yeah, yes and yes because teenage girls think that whatever is going on in their life is the most important thing, and that I'm riveted by the drama on you can't believe you're saying or not who hooked up with who? Or you know,

whatever happened. But do you think that there's going to be some kind of stunted growth with this whole generation of teenagers during this pandemic. I don't I think it's different growth. If cell phones didn't exist, I might have a very different answer to that. But they are connected, they are socializing. It just doesn't feel familiar to us, and it's not filling their need. Don't get me wrong, they need the in person connection, but there's enough connectivity

that exists. This is not everyone retreating to their you know, secret space and no one interacting with anyone, and now only children haven't much harder. I do think they haven't much harder. Well, yeah, they're so lonely, I know. Yeah, And I just wonder about learning social cues and empathy, like you said, and just having the normal experiences of do I kiss him? Do I kiss her? All that stuff. Apparently that's what TikTok's for. Oh well, then I I

don't know what I've been doing. I should get on TikTok right away. No, but you are right. I mean, I will say, I'm totally banking on my kids not listening to this. My daughter is just at that age where she reads every old eighteenth and nineteenth center romance novel, she watches every rom come like all she wants is that experience. And she is very rational and she knows in pandemic. That experience is a ways off and that is just a bomber. Right, So those things, those needs

not being met. That's where you know, we started the conversation at this point of are they running out to have sex or hang out or party or do whatever with each other? In the answer to yeah, yeah, that's human nature. Yes they are, um, and that's why we we got to get a vaccine and a therapy really really fast, so our kids can go, so my daughters can get pregnant. Yeah, that's yes exactly. I said that. Oh God, thank you so much. Now I really wish

I had a boy. UM, not just because I always heard, oh the boys love their mother so much, but they talk that they go to their room and they're quiet. It's just happened to me. They smell really bad. All really, I know, I know, but I mean I can't believe that my door hasn't knocked fifteen times during doing this podcast. I have to talk to you. I have drama, I have tea mom, I have teeth. Anyway, that's all we do. I know everything about every teenager in the Tri State area,

and I don't want to know. A book called Spilling the puper Teeth was like, no, you cannot ye, so you have to write that book. You have to write that book. Thank you for your time, Thank you so much for talking. And it's very enlightening. I love it. I do want to end this podcast by dispelling one myth. It's not just teenage boys that stink. Spend an hour in the bathroom with my two teenage girls. Remember subscribe

to go ask Allen. If you like what you heard, go to my social media Twitter is Ali e Wentworth and Instagram is the real Ali Wentworth than the t