Rebroadcast: LGBTQuarantine - Supporting Queer Youth

of which would greatly affect miners. So I hope my conversation with the wonderful Stephen Russell will shed even more light on the importance of fighting for trans equality at home and in our schools. Please enjoy today. I'm very excited about my guest, Stephen Russell, and his resume goes on for pages. His credentials include working at the University of Texas at Austin as a director for the College

of Natural Sciences School of Human Ecology. He served as past chair of the Board of Directors of the Sexuality Information and Education Council of the United States Sex Said for Social Change Change. Finally, he's also part of the LGBTQ community and a father to a teen Stephen, thank you so much for being here. I'm really glad to be here. You kind of focus on relationships between LGBTQ teenagers and their families. Um, you're constantly working very hard

to change policy. Before we get to that, I want to go through identification because I think a lot of parents need to understand. I have two teenage daughters who have informed my husband and I they are sis, meaning they identify their gender with their sexuality. Is that correct, their gender with their sex that was assigned a birth. Yes, they're sex. Thank you. See, this is why we're gonna

have a lot to go through. Um, so let's talk about sexual orientation because that is that is different than uh, sexual identity, yeah, and gender identity and expression. Yeah. So sex is what we are assigned birth male or female, and is based on biological characteristics or traits. Um, it is actually a little it is more complicated than male or female in human physiology anatomy. We understand now there's much more actual human variation in sexual characteristics and biological

sex than we thought. We understand much more now about ideas about intersex, meaning the space between and people who whose biological physiological sex is not consistent with our ideas about you know, exclusive maleness and exclusive females. And this is different from when you hear people say, yes, I was born a boy, but I don't feel like a boy.

I feel like a girl. I know this sounds very elementary right now, but I do want for people listening to this to really understand terms and UH labels when we go into these discussions. Right, that is the manifestation of gender identity when as a young person feels that their gender identity, that their gender expression, the way they understand themselves in the world is either consistent with or not consistent with the sex that is on their birth

certificate or that is their biological physiological self. And so when your kids tell you what we're ciss, it means that they understand their feminine identity, their female identity, and that's consistent with um the way that they were presented to the world and understood by their pediatricians and parents when they were when they were born and when they

were little growing up. And and of course for some kids, if that is inconsistent, if they grow up feeling that there's a mismatch, that it didn't, it's not quite right that they were surprised to find out when they were three that they were a boy when they really thought they were a girl or you know, felt like a girl, or the other way around. That is when we think of and understand transgender. Although transgender is not necessarily what

people call themselves. Necessarily, sometimes it is, but often transgender is a description of the gender identity rather than the person's self expression of their gender. Yeah, because I found that in my little bubble that parents and teachers have a tendency to not identify the correct way. A lot of times I'll hear people say, oh, yeah, there's we have three trans students in our class, and they're actually not trans, you know, they're uh, non binary or there.

You know, there are other things. But people, I think more and more get confused by these identifying factors, um, which actually causes the youth more trouble that they're what they're actually experiencing anyway. Yeah, and I think what's happened in the last decade, the last even five years, is that young people are helping us understand ourselves and so um, you know, transgender literally means you know, changing moving gender.

And there are a lot of kids who are now saying the binary the sort of male or female doesn't apply to me at all. So it's not that I'm transgender. It's just that I reject the idea that I can only express myself in a masculine way that's consistent with being called a boy at birth. I want to be something that is neither boy nor girl. Is just me. There are increasing numbers of young people who are asserting

that for themselves. And then it's complicated because for many trans kids, they view themselves not as trans, but as a boy or a girl that is different from how they were assigned at birth. So there are you know, kids who say, like, the truth is, I'm just a girl.

Even though I was born as a boy and people understood me as a male, I'm a girl and so um so, I mean they think one of the you know, existential adventures that were in the middle of kind of in terms of the society understanding it, being open to and understanding how young people see themselves and want to see themselves. Um. And what we know from developmental science is that honoring that is is what's important for young people in their well being. Do you think that that

teenagers know at birth? This is really interesting and complicated And I think that that's you know, that's why I'm asking you, and you know, there's still a lot to be learned on that. I'm going to say something that is kind of a rough generalization, but that that gender identity and understanding of yourself with respect to gender is really something that happens really young and very early. We've

known this for you know, sixty years. We've known that, you know, sex dimorphism, that toddlers begin to understand what you know, what's what are girl things and what are boy things? And they can point out, you know, anatomy, and they can they can learn, oh, I am a boy or I am a girl, especially if they are sis gender, and all of those things align and are simple and for them to understand. There's pretty good understanding that gender identity develops in childhood. The difference is that

sexual orientation and identity. UM. There's kind of a mix of people who will say, I've always known that I was different with respect to my desires attraction of the people that I want to be emotionally, romantically and you know, ultimately sexually involved with. I always I've always known that was different. Um. And then there are folks for whom that emerges around the time of the changes that we

think of as puberty. So around the sort of second decade when our bodies and minds begin to really change. That brings up for people an understanding of their gender, their sexuality. The thing that's important about the adolescence period, it's so embedded in our family relationships, our relationships with our peers, and the larger world and what's happening in the larger society that um, you know, the adventure for the social and developmental scientists is disentangling all that and

trying to understand what's going on for kids. But it's clear that understanding of sexual identity has to be understood adolescents as a product of relationships kids have, the school there are, but also the social and historical moment they're in. I would imagine that, Um, there's a lot of pushback with people that aren't as sort of self actualized about this world that they say, well, they're too young, it's

a phase. Uh, they're too young to know what they want. Um. You know, these are all things you hear out in our culture, um, as well as particularly kids that want to transition. What do you think about that? Yeah, this is when I think the thoughtful and caring medical psychological professionals and families need to really think with a child about what's best for them, because I don't think that

there is a single answer. What I do think we know now there are um you know, there have been gender clinics in the Netherlands for much longer than in the United States, and you know, starting about five years ago, we had the first studies that tracked people long enough. Uh and the very first humrital interventions are pretty clearly showing in adulthood, meaning following people for you know, a

decade or more. AH, people who transition, who are who are able to transition and allowed to transition early in life have adult body satisfaction, emotional health, physical health that is equivalent to everybody else in the general population. That to me is the most important kind of information that we need, because we're still a decade away from really having that that level of knowledge for you know, robust, diverse populations around the globe and especially here at home

the United States, and it's complicated, especially for families. I think balancing some kids really have significant emotional need to express themselves in a differently gendered way. For those kids, I think the compelling emotional need may outweigh concerns that we have that are real because we don't have aging

people who had hormone replacement therapy. That's not a thing we've had, so we really don't know what the physiological long term influences might be overall, Right, balancing all those things, I think is something that families need to think through carefully, and and increasingly there's a conversation about like how much self determination you can children have, And we know pretty well every kid is different, but you know, age thirteen

fourteen is when we're pretty clear that the reasoning function of the cognitive capacity of the brain has the same reasoning capacity as an adult brain, and we can understand

what it means to have a future orientation. I mean, I would think it's it's a lot for a thirteen year old that knows they want to transition and to have to wait till quote unquote adulthood is many years of pain, right, and and if we're talking about pharmacological intervention um post pounding, that could really make a difference for the rest of their life in terms of their physical expression and movement in the world, and that is significant.

You know, the question of breast development or facial development really makes the difference for how you live in the world. Imagining at thirteen what it's going to be like at sixteen is a really big deal. And so those are valid concerns for us to help our kids think through and for parents to try to anticipate, we're going to take a short break and we'll be right back. Welcome back with more go ask Galley discussed with me because I know you've spoken about the school to prison pipeline.

What do you mean by that school to prison pipeline is the ways that we systematically exclude some kids from education that makes the vulnerable to and is literally a pipeline into the juvenile justice system. And starting about five years ago, scholars started to be concerned about the ways that we saw other forms of not fitting in with what it means to be uh quote good student in the context of you know, thirty kids in the classroom

American junior high in high schools. We've known this actually for a while about kids with learning challenges that they're more likely to experience exclusionary discipline and to be in the justice system. Uh. It turns out we see the same kinds of patterns for LGBTQ kids and our studies have shown at that for girls it's often because they're perceived as aggressive. For boys, it's because they're putting on having makeup, being gender different and being told you can't

wear nail polished. If girls can wear now polish, why can't boys were now polish. But you know, a boy getting suspended and then being on the street and getting picked up for being truant, and then in a juvenile setting there more likely to be teased, you know, or worse. And so kids, lgbt Q kids are more likely the target of victimization being in a fight. You may not want to tell the principle they were calling them yea, calling me a fag when they were hitting me, because

maybe you're not ready to confront that about yourself. Yeah, of course you're certainly not going to come out to your principle first. But and also gay students, if they express um their sexuality by holding hands or kissing, they're more likely to be suspended than kind of your heterosexual holding hands were making out. So do you feel like the LGBTQ students are set up to fail right now in our country? I say, I think it depends on where they live and what kind of you know, what

we know makes a big difference. The thing that's encouraging is that we have so much new research in the last decade to really document, for example, with respect to schools, we know that inclusive and nondiscrimination policies make such a huge difference for just the setting of schools, reigning teachers. Here's the thing. Most teachers really do want to do it's right for children. They're there because they care and they want kids to thrive. And a lot of teachers

and parents too don't get it. Gender regulation is actually undermining kids, not helping them to fit in and be safe. I was going to ask you Obama had directives for schools to protect transgender students. Are they still in place or have they under That was resented? That was that was an early thing that was resented from the US Department of Education. Okay. And the other thing I've read that smaller schools have a tendency to be more compassionate.

That uh, the smaller the community. Um have you found has a tendency to be more empathetic and more inclusive. Um have you found that in your studies to be true? I think it's contingent on leadership and on the things

like policies and strategies and schools. I think in principle that's true that in smaller communities people are more likely to know one enough and understand one another, and there is some degree of kind of exceptionalism like, oh, well, I might not like the gays, but you know, so sana is. It's not like that she's the person that we've grown up with and so um, there's some degree

of exceptionalism. But the culture in the context of classrooms and schools is really kind of the main thing that is going to drive how kids do and do we have a school setting where the culture is that everyone is treated with respect and fairness. You know, do we have leaders among students that assert that, you know, everybody has a right to an opinion, everybody has a right to space, that we don't act that way in our school, that we all get along here? What do you what

do you think about like celebrities, YouTubers, Instagram personalities. Have they been helpful? Because I know, certainly with my own kids, they see movies where you know, the best friend is trend or gay or and the more it gets into the main stream of what teenagers watch it seems to be kind of breaking a lot of stereotypes. Have you found that? Yeah, you know, there's the good and the

bad of all of the dimensions of that. Those of us who are old enough to remember when Helen came out, you know, on television, there was literally nothing, I mean, it was absolute deafening silence in media and that literally within two years there wasn't such thing as a show that didn't have a gay character. What followed from that was sort of the stereotypes. And I think what LGBTQ kids continually struggle with is like, huh, who am I

and what am I going to become? And if you are sort of only seeing a certain kind of version of that gay meant rich white guy, I think that's where we have challenges. I think sometimes also those messages are simplistic, you know, like that it gets better. That was so compelling for so many people like us who were middle aged. Well, I'll speak for myself, I could

be month Okay, I don't think so anyway. Uh So for people who were looking back and thinking of that the middle school is healthful and that's true, and that the way that was so undermining for so many kids who felt like, I don't want to wait. I'm getting harassed every single day when I go to school, and I frankly prefer not to wait until things are some

days somehow somewhat better. There has been sort of among advocates among youth pushback on that message that like, we shouldn't use that as an excuse to settle for good enough schools for our kids or good enough faith communities for our kids. We should say, like, no, we should really, you know, make sure that things are better now. And we're we are learning a lot about what can make that happen. So much of my focus has been on schooling because that is the place where the rubber often

meets the road. Would ant appear community before it comes home, right, And so it's an institution that where the public has a stake, and we can make policy changes in ways that we can't relate with families. We can't make families change their minds about things, right, but we can say the schools, you might not change your mind, but you should at least stop discriminating, or you should at least create systems so that kids don't get you know, bullied

or harassed at school. Um so at least at school. Like you said, they can you know, implement a safer environment. And I do want to talk to you about how we can push lgbt studies into the school curriculum. But the home life you can't change now they're they're at home in most parts of this country with the family that you know, in terms of data and percentages are not supporting them. Um, how do we help these students that are in quarantine right now? Yeah, it's really hard.

There are many lgbt Q kids whose experiences now that they are re closeting in a way. I mean that in fact, maybe their only place to have that expression was at school because they were not out at home. You were sort of navigated with your family that you were out, but you're real place to be out was at school. And so now you're home and you're the

re closeting. Idea point about like not bringing it up, not having it be the focus of attention, that conversation that we've all been avoiding, and even though we've had it, we're avoiding it. But one of the classic indication of family rejection for lgbt Q kids is parent regulating their peer networks, saying you can't hang out with those kids, or you can't go to that group, or you can't you know, or monitoring their media, their social or digital media use. Can I go to that site? Or can

I you know, text or email the friends? And so parents do that because it's the right thing to do in general for kids, right knowing who we are, who are with, and where we are. Yeah, I mean I I struggle with it too, but I will say that during this pandemic, I have been a lot more lenient about screen time because it is their only way to socialize.

Thinking about lgbt Q teens, I think and I hope that at least when they're in their rooms and they're struggling with whatever they're struggling with, especially with a family that maybe doesn't support them, that there are support groups. There are places that they can go during this period, even if they have to kind of put this, as you said, conversation on hold there. The Center link is

a great national resource, and they have online chats. Now they've had this for for a while now, but I think those are really taking off as a place where adult facilitated for the kid that doesn't have their own room, for the kid that doesn't have their own computer or their own you know, eye tool or phone or whatever, you know, whatever it is that they need for their schooling. Um, what if the only space you have is with the sibling. What if the only space you have is in the

living room of a of a family space. So I think we're seeing the you know, cultural diversity, social class diversity plant impacting not only just schooling, but then compounded with the social emotional development and sustaining the lives of the LGBTQ kids and kids at the intersection of other sort of disadvantaged and marginal marginalized groups. We really have to be concerned about. And the relentless optimist is that we are learning dramatically new things that are going to

change the way we will be from now on. This is a cohort defining a generation, defining moment. There will be a couple of years of kids that will say, my high school years were those COVID years, and I will always have hand sanitizer in my you know, back pocket for the rest of my life. I think masks would be like condoms, like you need both, you gotta have them and um. So I think adapting to digital communication is what young people have always done all cultures.

Young people are the innovators. I mean not exclusively, but look at all of the people that we think of us billionaires, and you know, trace back where their innovation came from is when they were you know, teenagers tinkering around in a garage or an attic or a backyard or somewhere. These sort of dilemmas are going to help kids be resilient. Ah, but I am nervous about the ways that it's undermining kids in the moment. I think that's the thing that we as parents need to be

concerned about. Now, a quick word from our sponsors, welcome back to go ask Gali. Let's get back to the discussion. Let's assume that there are some parents listening to this podcast who have a child who is a l g B t Q youth teenager and they are struggling with acceptance or they are struggling with how to support their teenager. Um, what kind of words of wisdom can you give these parents?

As well? What I've learned from parents, especially from studying parent rejection Yes Kids, is that nobody really wants to reject their children. I think it's so core to our understanding and vision and imagination for our kids, like what we think they're going to be someday. So if it's rooted in faith, it's so core to who to our fundamental beliefs about ourselves in the world. You can maintain your faith, belief and support the thriving of your kid at the same time that those don't have to be

in conflict. The minority of people I think that really sort of fundamentally believed that to two men or two women should not be married. Um, you know, if you can put that on pause for now. When your kid is not asking you if they can get married, they're asking you like, can I, you know, watch this show, or can I wear this outfit? Or can I cut my hair in a certain way. When we when we regulate them and when we tell them that it's not okay, if we can just back off from those, message is

they will thrive. They will be okay. Kids don't need their parents acceptance because then they have nothing to complain about. I mean, this is part of what it needs to be a teenager. And when you show the statistics about depression, suicide, substanceies and you say, we know that if you can back off from these things, if you can, If you can quit telling them that who they are is not okay, your kid will do better. And most most parents are willing to do that. And then you know, they realize

this is not the end of the world. My kid is actually the person I love, and they're becoming who they're supposed to be in the world. Like I can say to teachers, I'm not trying to change your values. You don't have to like suddenly be in favor of I'm just going to use gay marriage because that was the thing we talked about for a while. You don't have to be in favor of that to make sure that that kid is okay in the classroom this week. How can all kids have an equal chance at education?

I completely agree with you, and I think it's so important because I think what happens is um particularly with parents, is they make a huge leap from Oh I just saw you know, Frannie kissing Jane. Oh my god, I'm not going to have grandchildren. Oh my god, this is so Antichrist. You know, whatever they wherever they go to that to just like you said, put it on hold,

be so helpful for their psychological growth. I imagine, and I feel and I try to support the LGBTQ community because I could really weep for the students who have that at home, that anger and an unaccepting household, and

then go to school and are bullied. Um. And so if we can just give a little bit of guidance to parents, and you are definitely doing with schools, a little bit of of hope for them, then you know, get these kids through their teenage years, like you said, consequently they will be I think the parents, if they are more accepting, will still maintain that connection with them when they get older and make whatever decisions they make in the world. And it's complicated by the fact of adolescence.

I mean, the reality is people used to come out when they were in their twenties and thirties and forties, and now they're coming out when they're sixteen, fifteen, fourteen, or six seven, you know, with respect to gender identity expression. And I think that the dilemma right now that we're in that there have not been models for being a supportive parent of a queer kid. We haven't really had that. I mean, the next generation will have that, but right

now we're making it up having a trans child. Um. The deep profound, incredible confrontation to their imagination for that child is going to be in the world. And how like, what was so concerning to me about the idea that my child that was born as Robert is going to be my beautiful daughter? Like the whole point of the human species is that were resilient. I mean, that's why we exist as we do um And so I think families are fundamentally resilient, and almost all parents I want

to do right by their kids. So I think it's really helping families understand that it is those it's the things that we're doing, the everyday small things that actually get under the skin and erode our kids well being. You know, I came out when I was twenty six. I lived independently, was financially mostly independent, and didn't rely

emotionally economically financially on my parents. And I wasn't his maldi And you know, there was no outgay people at the university where I went in the It was in the in the South and in the eighties that just that much has changed, and so my ability to emotionally regulate myself when I was coming out to my parents, and my parents saying, you know, my mom saying, you don't expect me to tell anybody to do and it's like, Mom, I don't expect to tell anybody. Well, of course the

first thing she did was call and tell people. But you know, yeah, I mean I have to say that sometimes coming out stories are so helpful to younger people. I mean I have many friends that have, you know, told my kids they're coming out story, because when they tell the story and the parents empower them, everybody's like, oh my god, your parents are so great. Um, will you tell me a little bit about you as a parent before before we sign off? Just tell me about

your kids and sort of how you parent them. Sure, it's a wild, long story, so I don't know how much time you have. But my son is twenty five and he was an undocumented immigrant. He was their team. We were not lucky to be parents. We had an immigration attorney friend who called and said, like, there's a gay kid who's undocumented who needs at home right now. Can you do it? And we looked at each other and said, uh, I guess so we should probably do that.

And he's amazing And it was an adventure because we were like it was pretty The funny part of course was that we were like, oh my god, what do we do? And people kept saying to me, aren't you an expert on this? Likesed to know something, and I was like, oh my god, I never thought about I'm not. I don't know anything about raising a kid. They're like, wait, you're the expert. I'm just curious. It's just one kid or two? Just one? Just one? Yeah? And did you

have to learn Spanish? It's super interesting, like a very sort of classic immigrant story. He was not, and he did not want to speak Spanish. I think he had a lot of trauma, and he also was invested in rejecting the Mexican part of who he was. He understood it as poor and homophobic and you know, negative, and that was that was a hard thing for us for a long time, was helping him understand actually HOMOPHOBI he's not owned by certain groups, like there are plenty of

white people that are. Um. So he got he got to grow up in this this incredibly nurturing environment. Yes, he The super interesting thing for him was like the three sixty twice from from a really one kind of life to a to another one to a middle class where the last thing he needed to worry about was being gay. Um, we had so many interesting wild stories about you know, raising a gay teenager these days, and

especially him. But you know, for example, I do all this research on high school gender sexuality alliance clubs, case straight alliance clubs g s A, and there was a g s A at his school, and I was friends with the faculty sponsor the g s A. And I kept saying him, why don't you go to the g s Have you thought about the g s A? And

it finally he didn't. He was not interested, and I finally said, what's the deal with the g s A. He said, Look, all the kids at g s A complained about their parents and not being able to be at at home, and I just like, I just don't want to hang out with them. I thought, how interesting, my kid like doesn't connect with the gay kids because they're struggling with coming out. And he's like, been there,

done that. And actually, one of his big problems as a teenager dating was that all the little boys he wanted to date wanted to date him but didn't want anyone to know. And he thought like he was so he was ahead of his time in that way because he was like, you know, it was all out there for him, be his his his life circumstance, and he was the gay kid with the gay dads, and so he was like, I can't believe these stupid boys are

too ashamed of being gay. And I'm like, well, honey, yeah, they had a really they have a really different experience than you have. You have to be exactly very proud of him. Yeah, I call that a success story. And he's just he's a really sweet guy, which is nice. How would you direct anybody that wanted to get involved in an activist kind of way politically about helping schools be more inclusive with the LGBTQ communities or have there

any place you would direct people. Listen is the is amazing national organization for LGBTQ issues and education and so and there are chapters all around the country. So Listen is like the go to and then uh, you know, reach out. I mean one of the things I say when I do workshops or I visit teachers, or I say, you know, does your school have an inclusive nodscript nation policy? And there are many many blank faces in the room, even if people that are well meaning, even if people

that are advocates for their kids. And I think that kind of really concrete. Call your superintendent, call your school board members, and say, why don't we include sexual orientation and gender identity and expression in our non discrimination policy. Have our teachers men trained on understanding and supporting LGBTQ young people. And when you know of families that are experiencing dilemmas for their kids that are LGBTQ, become involved. So like think of uh, any LGBTQ kid as our kids.

And so I really think that parents make a huge difference in moving to dial in schools. And I think when um, what happens, I think for many parents of LGBTQ kids is their kids may be the only kid, The parent may feel isolated, the parent may feel like they don't know where to go. P FLAG Parents and Friends of Lesbian and Gay is an important also national

organization for parents. UM. But what I would say to the parents of the CIS straight kids is like, listen to your kids, find out what's happening, and be an ally to the parents of kids who are you know, going to the school board of the principle that was not absolutely absolutely well, Stephen, this has been great. I cannot wait to shoot the movie based on the book Based in your Life. Oh my god, I love that part. A chapter in the book will be about being a

cheer mom. I was a cheer mom for my son. My son integrated the Tucson h cheer and the stories that I had. I would go to these meetings and I was one of the only dads. I would tornament my kids and say like, do you want to get my nails done with the badger because all the moms have their nails done with badgers for the football game. He's like, oh, that's great. I mean, but by the way, teenagers are embarrassed of your parents no matter what you do. Anyway,

That's all I do is embarrass my daughters. Stephen Russell, thank you so much for being on go skally. This has been really great. It's been so nice to talk to you about sort of what you're doing and your thoughts and I think you know, for me, this is a particularly important issue for parents, and thank you. Thank you so much. It's really fun. Thank you for tuning in to go ask Ali. Feel free to write a review, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, or follow me on social media on Instagram. The Real

Ali Wentworth and Twitter Ali E. Wentworth. Go ask Alli is a production of Shonda land Audio and partnership with I heart Radio. For more podcasts from Shonda land Audio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.