Our State of Cancel Culture w/ Amy Schumer & Aja Romano

the Golden Globe. After all we've been through. We deserve an orgasm. Cis I deserve? Welcome to Go Ask Allie. I'm Alli Wentworth. This season, I'm digging into everything I can get my hands on, peeling back the layers and getting dirty. On this episode, we'll be talking about cancel culture. What is it and what does it mean for our social, political, or professional world. People can't seem to say anything without the risk of being quote unquote canceled, which could mean

being shunned, shamed, or fired. The thing is, I find it to be very divisive and I'm really scared about it because I think it hurts us culturally and politically and spiritually. So today on this episode, I want to understand it. I am a student of cancel culture. I'd like to be able to sit at my dining room table without my daughter's telling me I can't say that. I can't do that, Mom, You're gonna be canceled, particularly because I'm somebody that is very vocal on my podcast

and on talk shows. So I have two guests with me today to dig into the mine field of cancel culture. Internet culture journalist Asia Romano, who has written deep dive articles for Vox about the origins and evolution of cancel culture. Then we dig into the effects of cancel culture on comedy and the bigger question is comedy dead. Actress and comedian Amy Schumer tells me your thoughts. First up, Asia Romano.

They are a culture a reporter for Vox. They're focused on Internet culture and communities, as well as criticism and commentary on movies, TV, theater, and other media. Asia's written too in depth articles for Vox explaining the history of cancel culture and how it's evolving. So come with me while we dig into this whole notion of cancel culture and when I say dig in, I mean very gingerly. Asia Romano, I'm just so thrilled you're you're coming on to talk to me about this, So welcome to go.

Ask Ali Hi, thank you for having me. So, Asia, let me ask you a question. Are you millennial? You gen z gen x? I'm right on the border between gen X and millennial. Okay, So I'm there's no generation for what I am. I'm so old. Social media like didn't exist when I was younger, and so I still feel like a student not only of social media, but of so many things, and one of them I'm particularly fascinated by because I don't truly understand it is cancel culture.

You're you're not alone. Okay, good, So walk me through your understanding or how you view cancel culture. Let's start there. Well, I think you have to understand when you talk about cancel culture, you're really talking about essentially two different things. You're talking about the original idea of canceling, which was sort of a community idea that became kind of as an in joke around the end of among black communities

on social media. So you have that initial idea canceling is the idea of like an individual or a collective boycott of somebody who's rubbed you the wrong way. And then you have canceled culture, as it's become this ongoing cultural phenomenon where people react to something they don't like, harassing them, calling their managers, trying to get them held accountable and or fired and or prohibited from future work, etcetera, etcetera, and essentially trying to enact a community we caught through

the means of social media. Um, that's become this kind of political weapon. And I think that's what people are describing as cancel culture. But I think it's existed for a while. This, I mean, it maybe wasn't called cancel culture, but you know, there were figures in even the past century that people would do their version of cancelation, like Lenny Bruce absolutely and and other people. Except now it seems like it seems divisive asia, it seems mean and scary.

Well yeah, that's also why I tried to differentiate between the actual canceling, which I think was again sort of individualized and and meant as like a community form of protests and talking truth to power, right, and a lot of that has been compared to say, the civil rights movement boycotts, you know, when you'd have people exerting their power as a community because they didn't have individual power.

So you'd have the boycotts of you know, businesses in the South that were segregated to draw attention to the inequality there. And in that sense, cancelation is sort of an updated version of a boycott, right, and it's doing sort of similar things because it's trying to draw attention to like power, like a power different shield, right. You know, there's some people that think cancel culture doesn't exist. Other people say it's free speech. Is it free speech? Is

it protecting free speech? I think it's complicated because I think we're definitely seeing people freaking out about cancel culture. We're seeing you know, members of of right wing legislatures pass ordinances against cancel culture, and they're trying to say band critical race theory from being discussed in classrooms, right, like, So there's an actual effort to both cracked down on a cancel culture and then also cancel people they think

are doing the canceling. Right. It gets into this vicious cycle, right yep. So we're seeing real world effects of this thing that may or may not exist. So let me ask you. This Time's Up is a movement that was created to help all women in sort of every faction deal with workplace inequity, whether it's sexual harassment or or

inequal pay. And so here's a movement that has been worked on by some incredibly smart activist women, and somebody comes along, okay and attacks Governor Cuomo with you know, perfect grounding to do so. And what happens in our culture is people don't go through the narratives and the storylines from both sides. They hear something and they go, Okay, you're canceled. And my biggest issue is that there's so

much misinformation and so much quickness to punish. And the next thing that happens is, let's say, with times Up, they're canceled, and then there's like there's no advocates left on the playing field. Old So the thousands of women maybe that were being helped and there was scaffolding around them to help them in the workplace, it's just immediately gone.

There are repercussions, and I think that there's no due process anymore, right, And one reason for this, I think this is fueling a lot of the outrage against cancel culture, and it's the way that social media operates to kind of, as you said, really collapse and condense arguments that are much more complex, right, and much more nuanced, because like, if you're on Twitter all the time and you only have two characters, right, you can't really have a lot

of nuance. In addition to that, I think is something the academic Alice Morowick has She's termed it as morally

motivated networked harassment. And what that means is that instead of say like a good faith engagement where you have you know, and kind of both sides getting airtime and both sides getting the chance to talk through a debate or a conversation, right, instead, you have as a situation where on social media you'll have people who are in essentially social media networks who are motivated to kind of

spread outreach. And this happens at every point along say the political spectrum, and often it has nothing to do with politics. It could be like if you're in a religious community and you're motivated by a specific tenet of your religion, or if you're in a fandom and you're motivated by a specific belief that your fandom has, like it frequently happens that fans will just sort of attack each other. It can be very kind of complicated to follow.

But the sort of underlying core activity that Marvik identified is that once people latch onto this idea, whatever it is, that they can get mad, that they can get mad about, and then they can spread it to their followers and be kind of a part of this chain of of reaction, right,

and that validates people. And once you have that kind of thing happening, you don't really have due process, Like you said, you have this sort of moral outraged by all that keeps growing and growing because people are motivated to share their anger and that sort of gets them clout on social media in a way that you know,

having a conversation is not. But I think cancel culture equally as often impacts people who are, you know, not involved in politics at all, people who are just trying to live their lives and then all of a sudden, because of something they said or did, they are hit with these waves of harassment. And I think that that's partly because people who are doing the harassing feel so justified.

This is the key to like the moral motivation behind it all, right, They feel so justified and what they're doing that they don't care that they're hurting other people. They don't care that the person on the other side of their harassment is being severely impacted. Is you know, is of somewhere sobbing or crying and and in the

most extreme cases, actually doing themselves harm. And it sort of becomes a question of going back to what you said about the lack of d process and and actually sorting through a situation and working through it rationally and having a discussion about it the DOE process in yourself, like how you can make yourself stop reacting and anger and sort of a knee jerk outrage, and how you can calm down and prioritize what matters to you in

a way that doesn't involve hurting other people. And I think this is something too that we increasingly lose sight of. So here here I come with my big sweeping statement, which is social media is kind of the dictator of

all this stuff. No, absolutely, I think you're right. Part of the outrage against cancel culture, I believe, is outrage against social media and the way it is dividing us and sort of increasingly siloing us off into these camps that just sort of yelled at each other, right, because there's never I mean, there's an immense amount of people he can go online and call out others for their behavior and get groups to kind of join this public fray.

But also I think it's worth pointing out that, like, when you make the public fray the target, instead of looking at the points people are raising and why people are angry, you're turning this this thing that was originally used as a tool to call for accountability and a way to sort of level a very imbalanced playing field, You're turning that into a cudgel to use against the people who didn't have power to begin with. So I think it's really complicated, right, Like you're weaponizing this idea

of cancel culture, and especially the right wing. I want to say the right wing because they usually are the people who are legislating it in terms of trying to literally pass bills around it. But you know, you see it again on all at every point in along the political spectrum, people using this idea of cancel culture to sort of browbeat their political enemies or their their community enemies.

Because once you say that some of these cancel culture, then you can just sort of dismiss whatever the opposition is saying to you, right, So I think it's a really double edged sword. Also. I mean, you know, you look at Trump, and Trump should have been canceled a thousand times over. There was so much carnage, certainly during his presidency of people that were getting canceled, But yet he was impervious to cancelation. And so then my next question is asia, is it just the patriarchy that is

immune to cancel culture. Well, it would kind of seem that way, right. The whole irony of canceling is that it rarely works. You know, there are these extreme cases where people will have you know, lost their jobs or etcetera. But in most of those cases, people lost their jobs because they were held accountable for things they actually did. For example, the Central Park bird lady who called the cops on on the man in Central Park Like, she

didn't lose her job because she was canceled. She lost her job because she was racist and made all of her coworkers probably afraid of her. Right, So there are levels of discourse or just even basic facts about what happened in cases that get lost, like the doctor SEUs

thing that so many conservatives were outraged about. Like the narrative around that was that Dr SEUs was getting canceled, right, But in fact, none of Doctor Seus's major titles, none of the books that you actually have read, we're getting taken off the shelves. The ones that we're getting taken off the shelves were these heinously racist books that hadn't been published in years. And it wasn't like anyone was was actually saying we will no longer publish Doctor suits.

No one was saying that at all. They're just saying this sort of minor set of his works that have very offensive contents, well, we'll just lose those for a while, right, Like that's it, And I think that's a much different conversation.

But that conversation was not the conversation that was being had because people wanted to use that news as an excuse to be mad about cancel culture, right because ultimately didn't Dr seuss book didn't didn't go in the best seller list during that whole controversy, right right, Right, And the same thing with j. K. Rowling, Like after she was quote unquote canceled for being a transpob, her sales

of her books actually increased in the UK. So when you talk about you know, is the patriarchy and pervious, I think there's two things that are happening. It's that the patriarchy has the power and the ability to shape and control the narrative around cancel culture in a way that the people who are trying to do the canceling do not write. And then also because of that power, they have further power, which is to resist the actual effects of people trying to hold them accountable. Right, and

it's time for a short break. Okay, let's get back to it. In a cancel culture, there's no learning curve. And what I mean by that is you cannot make a mistake. And I think as human beings, making mistakes

is how we learn. And I it's funny because I was just talking to the dean of my daughter's college and he was saying that even days before the students were coming to school, they rescinded a lot of of acceptances because and this was not because of social media or parents or it was other students turning other students in meaning calling up and saying, oh, just so you know, this student did this, that and the other, and they got the student canceled, And these are teenagers whose frontal

lobe haven't developed yet. And so if you go to any kind of great scripture, you learn by your mistake. But if you can't make mistakes because you'll be canceled, you can't move forward. Then you're like in this incredible guinea pig cyclical. It's tricky because yes, like on the one hand, you want there to be grace, you want there to be a mercy, and you want there to

be lenients. Yeah, obviously I have no idea what kinds of things are they're getting reported for, right, But like if it's something that's extremely hainously offensive, you know, if they've been reported and the school had still let them in, you know, would that have sent the message that they need to learn and repent and actually understand what changes to make their behavior, or would they have been sent the message that it doesn't matter what they do because

they have the privilege and the power to just skate by and get on into college anyway. So I think you have the conversation about consequences and accountability that tends to get lost in sort of this rush to judgment. Actually, and one thing I think it's important to emphasize is that while we're having all these conversations about consequences and accountability,

you have so many people, mostly marginalized people. There's a whole level of I guess, victimization that gets lost when we're having this conversation and we're trying to say, oh, there's no second chances for anybody, But in fact, a kid who only who quote unquote only has his college application admission rescinded, is still you know, they have a chance to reapply when they do have all of the the second chances that society tends to afford, you know,

upper class, privileged white people essentially, you know, I'm a privileged white woman sitting here talking about it. But when you start to look through the lens of race and gender and you know, socio economic income, like, it's, yeah, it's a completely different thing, which doesn't make it universal,

which enrages me even more. One thing that makes this so difficult is that once you start talking about concepts like mercy and justice, you run into this situation where no one ever has the moral authority to be able to say, hey, this is where we should draw the line and give someone a second chance. Because as soon

as you say, let's give this person a second chance. Then, because of all the you know, the morally motivated network to harassment that I mentioned earlier, like that whole trend and that whole tendency, you have people than attacking you and saying, oh, you're part of the problem, right, Like, will anybody ever be moral enough to ask and to earn forgiveness in this context? I think that's a legitimate

question to ask. But the thing is, once you ask it, then you look like you're part of the enemy, right. I mean, I think about what Barack Obama said about this kind of the quote unquote will politics and people being so judgmental about each other and saying that's not activism.

But for me sometimes it's very hard to separate that what is activism and what is basically social media pitchfork grade, you know, right, right, It's really tricky because on their winter hand, you want there to be a space where you can have those conversations and you can have those sort of like meeting of the minds, right, But at the same time, nobody should be pressured to say, interact with somebody who's made them feel unsafe or or harmed, etcetera.

Like this whole, you know, mute block sort of functionality that we've gotten, like social media, develop those types of tools in order to make people safe from harassment. Right. I think many people feel increasingly that that's the only way they can really shut toxicity out of their lives, you know, just once, when somebody comes at you with an opinion that you don't like, you just block them

and move on. And that's important to have. But I also wonder if it maybe protects us from having to share space with ideas that we aren't comfortable with, you know, and wrestle with our own opinions, and learn how to digest concepts that we don't want to think about, and

then maybe grow as human beings. Listen. There was a survey in and they found that in seven hundred interactions, deep listening meaning kind of respectful, non judgmental conversations, were a thousand times more effective, you know, in kind of bringing people together to understand each other as opposed to just spitting out some venom against somebody and then blocking their response. You know, it's very easy to just hear

what you want to hear. And then the bigger thing asia is cancel culture, you know, has his finger in the pie a little bit when it comes to what

an angry country we are. It's interesting because I don't want to put all of this blame at the feet of quote unquote cancel culture per se, because before cancel culture was called cancel culture, it was called political correctness, right, Like, There's always been this tendency to just sort of weaponize language and to weaponize this idea of free speech and use it against people who are marginalized and maybe have

not had voices. And one of the reasons that we're seeing all of this anger coalist right now is because social media has made people who previously did not have a voice in the collective public space, has made those people more visible, has given them a way to be heard and to be part of the cultural conversation. More throughout history, you would have heard from a bunch of white men with no direct experience involved in the conversation

that they were having right. So, so now that all of this change has happened, you have a lot of people feeling really threatened. But part of the reason they're threatened is because more people are getting to have steaks in the conversation. And I think that's important where I

do think cancel culture. I do think that there's this aspect of modernity that has really really made people lose their faith and good faith engagement because I think people want to be in their small contained communities and they only try those people to be able to interact with

them respectfully. And when you're in those small contained communities and you sort of trust everybody that you're talking to, but once you go outside of your safe space, as it were, and you interact with anybody else online, there's

an innate level of distrust. They're right, and I think the way social media algorithms work is to sort of further and fuel that division, and that's siloing off of people so that they don't trust anybody else who's outside their specific community, which of course just makes all of the network harassment worse, which makes all of the walking

and moving on worse. So it really does feel like something that's spiraling and and getting worse because nobody is really sure how to fix it, but everybody hates it. Do you think there's a time when cancel culture is positive in the sense of protecting oneself from toxic people or misinformation or inflammatory trolls. I mean, where where is the line I tend to view the Internet is inherently good because it has given rise to so many opportunities

for diverse voices to make themselves heard. So I think

that's important. But I also think that it's difficult to find examples where someone was canceled, someone with silence forever, right, and the Internet went well done and we all moved on, Like because even in the worst cases, like with someone like r. Kelly or Bill Cosby or Harvey Weinstein, like they've been canceled, but their their cultural impact is still there, Like you still have the question of what to do with their works, what to do with the legacy and

the impact that they left, and and that's that's harder

to untangle, right. I guess for me, the best case scenario would be, you know, like somebody gets their admissions presented, for example, and they learn, like it really and truly learn not to be a Nazi for example, Like that to me would be like a positive, But I also think that they're probably more effective ways to teach that, because I think what that tends to do is that would probably make the person bitter, right, and instead of making them humble and making them go, oh, my god,

everyone was right. I'm so sorry. I've learned my lesson. But then what happens is they get like if they if they didn't know what they were doing right, and they were like, I was innocent, I'm just a kid, leave me alone. Then they get embraced, you know, by all of these people would say bad intentions. We maybe our actual nazis right, and we were like, oh, you've been victimized. Come hang with us. We won't victimize you. Yeah, sorry you didn't get into college. But now you're a

proud boy, right, exactly right. That that happens, and we see that happen all the time, and I think it's at heart maybe everybody just wants to be accepted and to fit in. So could you say that cancel culture is kind of a new way, a new in our sort of modern way of creating a moral structure, but we're still trying to figure it out. Meaning if I looked at it in a positive way, is it sort of a newly formatted place or way of saying this is okay and this is not okay. But we just

really haven't gotten there yet. I think you're onto something there because I think in many ways you can look to, for example, the decline in spirituality. Right, Like, if you think about the function that religious organizations and so forth have held for people throughout centuries, like the lack of of like a moral authority to tell people what's right and wrong has sort of left us kind of in limbo.

And so I think to some degree, we've collectively been trying to rebuild a moral foundation non social media, using each other as our as our loadstones, right, and using influencers I guess as our guide posts. And this is how you get you know, somebody like like Kirsty Tagott, perfect example, somebody like who is sort of perceived is like this easy going moral authority until they do something

wrong and then they themselves are canceled. Right. So it's like we're sort of in this position where we're really looking for moral leaders essentially, and I think where we can both have a sense of the collective community and an agreed upon moral foundation, but we also get sort of the the emotional catharsis that we used to get from going to church and going to revival. I completely agree.

I also think that there's a loss of community in our country, and our community, which was the church was I don't know, p t A. Whatever that thing was that brought us all together in micro and macro communities

has now been shifted online. So that's what I mean by all of a sudden with the Internet, we've got to create a whole new moral structure, which I think cancel culture has plays a big handed And also you have to think about like how harmful many of our public institutions have been when they've had power to, you know, go on witch hunts and persecute queer people for example.

Like throughout history are like public institutions have not been infallible, and so we're trying to to I think to some extent people are trying to build new versions of those

systems without replicating all the flaws. But they're getting into whole new problems, you know, because I think more people are aware of, say, you know, how not to be a homophobe, for example, but they're less conscious of, you know, how to treat each other respectfully, how to just sort of sit still with your anger and process what you're feeling and and really work through an argument to figure out how to to most effectively react to it, right,

And I think all of those things are being fueled by you know, just the nature of social media and the nature of having information flying at you and you latching onto like the thing that ignites your emotions the most, which is usually the thing that makes you the maddest. It's a very very new, sort of brave, new world that we're talking about right now, yeh, which is why you know, I'm so grateful for this conversation, because just the more I've been talking to you about it, the

more I go, Okay. So it's we've just sort of built the foundation and we're we're all trying to figure it out, and we're all trying to build something that we can sort of both agree on. And I think to a lot of this could be solved if we had more regulation of the Internet as a service because right now, the way that social media operates, you have a company like Facebook that's really not helping um that that's sort of building these algorithms that just funnel people

into angrier and angrier silos of information. There's no higher accountability at the top for that, you know, like you had Facebook having to undergo congressional hearings for like the Cambridge analytical scandal, right but but nothing really happened, like no, no major change came from that, and I realized that

this is a process. And I don't want to just fully blame Facebook, but I'm saying Facebook is very representative and huge and crucial example of the absolute lack of people at the top who are being forced to think about these changes because nobody is forcing them to. So this is a machine that just keeps on barreling through society, right.

I will say one thing that academics have found helpful is like when they're looking at terrorist recruitment online, they found that when people are really censored and boycotted, essentially, when people are actually canceled and effectively pushed out of mainstream social media spaces, their ability to be influential drastically decreases. And I think that that's interesting because that implies that canceling someone by actually denying them a voice in the mainstream,

is super effective when it comes to fighting extremism. And there are academics and tech researchers thinking about this problem and working on it all day long. But we obviously have a long way to go. We do have a long way to go. But Asia, you've helped me so much today you really have. Like I said, I think we all need to think about it, process it, and figure out the best way to use the internet for good.

And and by the way, if I've said anything that's going to get me canceled, I hope you'll support me on this podcast. So Asia, this see end up. Go ask Alli. I'm actually asking my guests and listeners to ask me questions because I feel like I do a lot of asking other people. So do you have a question you would like to go ask? Alli? I do so, Ali.

I have been watching a street dance show lately where people compete to do various street dance and hip hop styles, and I'm just wondering if you have ever done street dancing or if you have any opinions on street dance. Oh You're so sweet to think that I would have ever street dance. Um, Asia, I failed dance at n y U Drama School. But I do live in New York City and I see street dancing all the time and I'm mesmerized by it. And I have seen the

most talented people in the world do it. I mean, if you walk, you know, in Central Park in the springtime, you see some of these women and men doing triple flips and bouncing off the wall and it's unbelievable. So I am such a fan of it. I mean, it's a true art form. I agree. I agree. They have battle competitions where they just compete like they have to freestyle, and it's just the whole world. And I'm fascinated by it. I am. I actually am really fascinated by too, and

I would love to see a competition me too. We should go. Yeah, take me absolutely, Asia, Thank you so much. I really appreciate you coming on. That's my pleasure. Thanks for having me. Next up, Amy Schumer joins me to give us the lowdown on comedy in a world of cancel culture, and also schools me on what jokes I can and cannot say. And now, my friend and one of the funniest people ever in the comedy world, Amy Schumer. Amy Schumer is an Emmy winning and Golden Globe nominated

stand up comedian, actress, writer, producer, and director. Like so many comedians, she has often toward theaters in arenas all over the world, but in twenty sixteen, Schumer became the only female comic to headline Madison Square Garden. Last year, she released her three part docuseries Expecting Amy about her incredibly difficult pregnancy, while also creating a comedy special and currently Amy can be seen in Stephen Carram's film adaptation

of his Tony winning play The Humans. Oh Amy Schumer High Hi Hi Hi Hi Ali, Oh God, I love you and I heard your son just in the background, So I want to make sure that you have time to make his mac and cheese. So this episode is something that I've been really fascinated with. It's about cancel culture and comedy because I truly even this morning I did um a talk show, and I afterwards was spinning because I was like, am I allowed to say that? Can I make that joke? Oh? My god? The hate

is going to come pouring in. So tell me. This is a very very broad paint stroke of a question, but censorship problematic tweets me to Comics are being scrutinized like never before. So is there a panic in the industry and is comedy dead? Yeah, a little question, that is a simple question. Yes, I think yes, comedy is dead. We're all dead. No. I think it's a great question

and like really worth talking about. I feel like, as someone who you know we all want to like do our best, and aside from just getting canceled, it's like, how can I be helpful, you know, you know, and as somebody who's like trying to be a good ally and advocate and whatever, I just I know I'm gonna sunk up. So I'm just like, just tell me when I sunk up. I'm gonna do my best and try and be authentic, but you know, just just tell me when I if I say something wrong, and people do.

I've learned, you know, from different times, I've gotten backlash and it's just worth listening to. And I don't think anyone, you know, it's like the people who are actually being like fully canceled. Um. As far as comedians, well no one's really been canceled, like even like louis doing shows again. But I think that it's more helpful to say I don't want to buy a ticket to your show than saying like, come on back and let's normalize and forgive.

I don't know, I I sort of feel like comedy now where we are right now in our culture is kind of can be a vehicle for radical thought. And what I mean by that is there are plenty of ways of talking about communities in a funny, funny way that don't necessarily have to be derogatory. I also think, like what you just said, as a comedian, if you can listen to your people, you know, your crowds and and your fans when they say, hey, by the way, you know this is uncool. That's also part of I guess,

our learning curve as people in a comedic world. I mean, I I know that on social media, you know, there's lots of hate. That's just the norm. So I just you know, comb through the hate and go, I know, I know, I'm God, George could have done better. I get it. I get it. But occasionally somebody will say something that I go, yeah, you're absolutely right, I shouldn't have used that pronoun or that joke is actually you know, inflammatory.

I get it. Thank you. Yeah. I'm trying to educate myself to be helpful in that way, and I understand the defensive reaction to want to be like, no, that's not what I meant, or here's why I'm not racist, or why you know, But I have like learned my lesson enough times and it's like, actually, usually better to just listen because there's probably something in what you know, I used to do roasts, you know, I did this

comedy Central Roads. There's so mean, you like, go for the absolutely jugular, And I wouldn't do those now because I just as a younger comic, like I just didn't really think about that people actually had their feelings hurt. You know, I don't want to hurt people's feelings like that's not I don't think that's heroic. I've just learned that about myself. It doesn't feel good, it's not worth it. So when people you know they have specials or you know,

their act where it's like it's just not helpful. It's like, what are you fighting for? Like any comic who's like I missed the days we could you could slap a woman in public, you know, it's like, are you for? Is this we want to support? I'm not even kidding. It's like that insane. So, you know, and as far as cancel culture goes, I think that the people who are the most afraid and complaining about cancel culture are the ones who are in danger of being canceled, and

they need to take a look at themselves. Agree with you, you know, I'm not worried about it when I'm on stage, I'm not worried I'm going to say something that's gonna because I know my intentions and I know that I'm like open to evolving. Yeah, I also think that. I mean as a stand up comedian, of which I am not. I tried it. You're hilarious and I've been your fan forever. Hey you sorry, bitch, I'll take it. Bit. I did want to try stand up, but they all yelled stripped,

and that's when I stopped. But you know, they say that if you're too intimidated to try to be deep or provocative, you shouldn't do stand up comedy, because that is kind of your role as a comedian to you know, shed the light on so many things that maybe we would be too afraid to talk about or joke about. So that I mean, to me, that's that slippery slope. I think the most provocative thing you can do as

a comic. It is exciting to have people go in thinking one way and to say some things that you feel like maybe change their mind or evoked some thought or emotion. But I think it's an opportunity to educate, like some of you are. Once said that my show was like sneaking shaved carrots and the brownies. And I love that because I really, you know, you have to

like sneak. You're trying to be funny, but you also want to you know, so like something that I'm doing right now, which is so fun You're the first person and he's gonna see this. But maybe I won't even give for a podcast. But you know, I had hyper amesis just like you did. Was so sick and found out that in New York. I'm sure you know this, black women are twelve times more likely to die unnecessarily during childbirth in New York. It's it's like three times

around the whole country, three times. It's already a lot of times. Twelve times. Were like, she's so anyway, it's like, okay, how do you drop that statistic on an audience. But what I just did was I ordered this mask of an old white man. So I think if you wear this into the hospital, you could get like a great c section and no one will be mad at you. You know, you just are like, just treat me like

I'm this old white politician. That is so funny. It's pretty good, right, And for our listeners, she just put on a white man, old man looks like a bird Nie Sanders very much, so like a Bernie math My god, I love that. I look pretty good, right, I just got it today. But that's exactly right. You're taking risk, You're you're making a statement. But we're all laughing, you know, learning through laughter. Yeah, And it's just like being an ally and all this stuff is so imperfect, Like it's

a constant negotiation. So it's like you can't win and people are going to be annoyed. But that shouldn't keep you from trying to be part of the conversation because that's what people want. And that just keeps the white supremacist patriarchal system in place, is because they just assume people are gonna wanna just repeat the status quo and not make too much noise, especially women, so as not to annoy anybody. Right. But it's funny because it's really

the women that are shaking it up, like you. Like, um, I was watching Michelle Wolfe's stand up show the other day, and you know, she she goes right in for abortion and so many other things, and yet and yet you're laughing. It does not feel preachy. It feels invigorate ding and you know, I can only imagine the pushback she got,

but she didn't get canceled, you know. And even back on, you know, when David Chappelle was talking about child molestation and Luis c k was insulting the Parkland shooting survivors Kevin Hart about his son being gay, they weren't canceled for those things. No, they weren't canceled. Um. If anything, it probably got them like another Netflix specially, any publicity is good. Yeah, they're like, Okay, we want to sign you up for the next deal right now. Um yeah.

Like and that stuff is just not helpful. Like I don't think it's brave to take a stand against the Parkland students. It's you know, you're just going the wrong way, Like why would you want to oppress any group of people? And I think, you know, Chappelle dropped a new special and it's like it's like a lot of it is.

It's like, you know, it's hard to speak out and speak up for people as a white woman of privilege because that's what you're gonna be, you know, and nobody was here you apologize, like our white guilt is not helping anybody. But I still want to try you know, and and so and your stand up, Like, I just want people to be funny and like, I think it's strange how focus people get on their own haters. You know.

It's like I would rather see a special where somebody is not focusing on the sort of press they got about something or answering back for something. It's like, I I do want to hear just about things that we can all relate to and that kind of stuff. Like, you know, there's so many different comedians and everybody should you know, do whatever they want. But I just think

it's more interesting. I totally agree. I actually just read the other day, um Jay Leno said that he was reworking all his routines now because of cancel culture, which I thought his were pretty I don't know what to say to that. I mean, I don't know his stand up. Actually I heard he was a great stand up. I've never seen it. It's pretty tame, you know what I mean. Like, and I mean, I think somebody like Jerry Simall doesn't really need to worry about that because he doesn't say

anything that's like canceled. He's not the king of edginess, right, No, no, no, I I mean, I have jokes that I am so not proud of and that I've learned so much, like, you know, jokes that just made me cringe so hard because but also it's just like that the way that we were raised, Like I was raised around people that thought racist jokes were funny and and uh, you know I I you know, somebody would make a joke like our our black friends, like we would make jokes about

how they couldn't swim, you know, and like we thought that was hilarious and they would laugh and it was like totally normalized. And then as you know, I'm getting older and like learning like, well, why is that? And it's like, oh, because of segregation, because black people weren't allowed in pools and they were humiliated and some people were killed for putting their foot in what was considered the white section of a pool. And that you know, I don't think, Um, you know, it's a process, but

you weren't conscious of that. Now you're conscious of this kind of thing, you know what I mean? And yeah, I want to do better and I want to help. Yeah, have you heard of a behavioral agreement form? No? But I'm interested. So they're my husband to get one of those. It's called a prenup. No, it's a it's a it's a new form that I read about and for comedian,

for stand up comedians. It says, by signing this contract, you are agreeing to our no tolerance policy with regards to racism, sexism, classism, agism, able is um, homophobia, biphobia, transphobia, xenophobia, islamophobia, or anti religion or anti atheism. How about that? Well wait, and that's for the comedian to sign before they go up. Yeah. Wow. Some new comedy clubs are having behavioral agreement forms, which is quite interesting. It's interesting that is wildophobias, a rapnophobia.

It gets like really specific, it gets afraid of your own vagina. I don't know what that's called. Yeah, I mean it's like you haven't signed that though I have not signed it. But like one time I went to Dubai to do stand up and I think I did have to sign something saying that I wouldn't talk about religion or you know whatever, and it felt so bad, like you just you don't want those rules on you. And I mean, what is that the clubs? Is that the clubs like ensuring themselves if the audience gets I

don't know what that is. That's that seems weird to me, or maybe they can say we were not going to pay you because of this, because you said that. I mean, who knows. I just thought it was a little that is wild, really was wild. But also like I don't know, I've been doing these shows at the Comedy Seller, just like getting my sea legs back, you know, doing stand up after the pandemic, and are you doing COVID jokes

a little bit? You know, I don't really have a ton, but yeah, the audience, it's it's advertised as like a secret girl show, and so the audience knows it's going to just be women on the show, and I think that is like a nice feeling and the audience. There have been some men in the audience, but it's been largely just female crowds, and it's it's felt very safe and sweet. You know. That's Can anybody go? Yeah? Can

I go? I'm a girl. I mean, if you've got seventeen dollars, I do think it's seventeen molls, but you're We're worth it. Thank you. That's really sweet. I was thinking about after nine eleven, everybody said, oh, God, you can't be funny. Comedy is dead. You know, you can't, but you can't, you can't. But there was definitely a momentary pause in black humor, irony, cuticism, all that kind

of stuff. But then after a few weeks it came back and people started to you know, so, And I hate to use this line about you know, uh whatever it is circumstances plus time equals comedy or whatever the hell that is, but um, you know, but in some ways, I think it is true that right now we're so seeped in this cancel culture that maybe two years from now, I mean, they have it though they have it. It's like they've got Rogan, they've got birth, they have access

to that right now. So I don't think it's so much that like, you know a lot of comedians are going to go back to that. It's uh, because it's it's there if you want it. They have their people are Yeah, there are people hanging on to um whatever those views are. And how exactly I personally get all my medical advice from Joe Rogan. Um, I do too,

and and always have. I've lost ten pounds on the do Warmer Horse stuff, which is fabulous nobody told me that no activated charcoal and de warmer, and I'm actually never felt better. I get my period every with him, without a uterus, I get my periods same. I don't have ovary take at my periods. It's incredible perfect um.

So I'm also hearing a lot of stand up comedians don't want to do college campus stores because they say that the college students are way too politically correct and quote unquote woke, and they get really upset about I mean, have you heard that that is I would say that that I've never felt fed as an artist by a college show. But I mean, they pay great money. So I don't know who's saying no to those shows. But I'll go and I'll just I'll read the Declaration of Independence,

play it's safe. Do they really pay? They pay big books, Yeah, yeah, yeah, colleges pay really well. So anyone who's like, I mean, that's not the show you're going to work on and be like, god, I learned so much about myself as an artist. They are really really sensitive and woke and all of that, and that's okay, you know, that's that's how they're feeling. You can't tell them that they're feeling incorrectly.

So yeah, if you're going to do a college show, just like I would just say, like don't take those big risks and the big swings, like it's not worth it. Just take the check. Yeah, it's just get that check, get in and out of ann arbor wherever the fuck and going to a show at a nightclub if you want to express yourself. It's so funny. How much political human or do you do? Do you do a lot of politics? No? I don't. I mean it's so depressing. It's not because I'm trying to stay away from it.

Like I have a joke right now where I'm like, let's try and think of it instead of the abortion man in Texas, Like let's see it as an opportunity for a destination abortion. And you know, like trying to spind it like bring your girlfriends to Camcoon you've always wanted to go, But it's like it's so dark, it's so unfunny and and what's you know, But it's just such a bummer, And I know I want, I do want jokes about it, but I lost, Like I think

half my audience going out for Hillary, did you really? Yeah? I was doing Arenas and I was. I was in Tampa, and I was, you know, like this is a big deal, like basketball teams play here, and I just asked the question. I was like, can somebody just explain why you don't like Hillary? Like I just I don't understand, Like I've just never heard what the reasoning is, you know, like just anybody in the audience. And somebody came up and they were like her emails, and I was like, what

does that mean? You know, and there was no nobody had any information, and so like two people left the show and they wrote about it like mass exited. I'm like, well, what about the twelve thousand people that stayed, Like can we focus on that? That's pretty good exactly. It's like I think I love that the people who come to see me on purpose, I know they're on my side. I know they're not you know, like, yeah, I love looking out at the crowd and knowing like these people

are on the right side of history. Yeah. I mean I would imagine that it would be like if you were like bon Jovi or somebody and you come out and it's just the Mormon Tabernacle choir watching you, you know, like, who who wants that? Anyway, you know what I mean. No, I'd rather not. You know, I have friends who don't speak out about anything because they're afraid to hurt their career, and I think that seems like a really stifling way

to live. I could not do that. I could not keep my mouth shut and be able to sleep at night. But also the fact that you don't keep your mouth shut is what's so great about you. Well, thank you, and will you tell that's my husband? Yes, obviously I need to do a podcast with your husband. Um. But also I think people now are like, you know, politics are so full of lies. You know, I'm basically getting my truths from stand up comedians, you know what I mean? Yeah,

me too. I get a lot of I learned so much from Samby or John Oliver and yeah, like there have been moments in my life where I'm watching like you know, wall to Wall Madow and like just I'm glued to that stuff. But now it's like I want to be informed, but I do feel like I just need a break. Yeah, it's just all so depressing. Yeah, it's a lot. Listen during lockdown, I was locked down with the news anchor and all he did was just he was just like a running feed of bad news.

So um, I know, so I looked like I want to see other people. I was. I went an open marriage, but I was like seeking comedy out to save me from it all. It was too much. And whether that was comedians making fun of what is going on, or it was comedians who were just you know, like Jerry talking about marriage or something else, it was my escape, literally, my mental escape, because I needed it so badly. Yeah,

I know. I really just feel like people want to like laugh and be silly, and and that's what I want to Yes, oh my god, laughter is everything. And and the other thing is that I wanted to ask you about is and and I'll probably get canceled for this, but I have very strong feelings about like being offended by the material or being offended because it wasn't funny. And I remember a million years ago, and I'm going to say this wrong, Tosh Point. Oh yes that is

his name, that's his legal name. Okay. He was doing some stand up and he made a rape joke and a woman stood up and walked out, and he yelled after her and said something like, you know, I hope you get gang raped on the way home and everybody was, you know, there was this big debate about it, and I said, at the time, I had a show on Yahoo and I said, you know, first of all, there's

something funny about rape. There's no joke there. But his joke wasn't even funny, right, Yeah, it's wishing gang rape on someone. Is not ever like the gold standard of hilarity, I don't know. But it's also not a joke. It's not a joke. There's nothing funny about it. I know. That's a problem I've been having to I really don't care for comedians acts where there's no joke. They're actually

just expressing actual hate for women. Yes, and and that's where people go, yeah, but but it's funny and you're like, there was no punchline, Like these people just actually feel very threatened by women. It was completely misogynistic. And so I spoke out about it. What did you say? You said on Yahoo? You didn't. I said on Yahoo two things. I said. One, rape is never an area that you know makes me guffa. And but also I wasn't even laughing, like,

oh my god, I can't believe I'm laughing. It was just a lazy horrible, mean spirited women hating thing to say. And of course I got hundreds of tweets from you know, fourteen year old boys going like, I hope you get getg raped. And I was like, okay, thank you, thank you for your feedback. Yes, it's it's so um. Yeah. But I mean that was clearly a case where you're not funny, and you're not funny. No it's not. It's

just like not brave, it's not funny. But but in the past you have made jokes, let's say, about being overweight or heavy. I remember your your dove so commercial jokes, and I mean, first of all, I'm peeing in my pants laughing, but also it had a point. It was really uplifting and inspiring at the same time. And that, to me is the genius in the craft of being a comedian. You know, if you can actually actually lift up and make us laugh. Yeah, you should fucking get

the Nobel Peace Prize especially right. No, yes, that is the thank you. Because I've been applying for this, they keep giving it to people like Malala or you know, I know, and I'm like, what about me, the real hero? I actually said recently, George said, oh, the scientists won the Nobel Peace Prize, and I said, fucking not Amy Schumer again, it's such bullshit. They're not responding to my letters. I'm really well, well, well, I'm going to get a

group together. I'm going to start to the people. I'm going to talk to the people. Thank you people on the phone. Okay, So I wanted to ask you. I wanted to go ask Ali, what was it like to have COVID so early on? Good question? How did it make you feel emotionally? So when I had it, it was really early March. It was in scary times like wintry, and everybody was freaking out, and everybody like bunker down or flew from the city. And I got it. I

was not scared. I did not think I was going to die, because I never think that I'm going to die in a kind of big dramatic way, which is why I know, like if I was on a plane with my husband and it went down, it would be like, you know, George Stephanopolis plus one die, Yes, you would be listed in the Death the Wife, the wife. You are worthy of a big dad thank you. But um, it scared everybody else because it was so early on

and when it started to get into pneumonia. That's when you know, it was like, all right, George, gotta go get those big horse antibiotics. And you know, it freaked

my mother out. But also George took a picture of me for Good Morning America because we wanted to alleviate some fear, like I have it, but I'm I'm okay, I'm not on a ventilator, you know, So we kind of wanted to not freak people out because a lot of times you would, after me, you would see somebody in the news and it would say like they have COVID, but you didn't know what that meant. So we sort

of chronicled a little bit. And then me, you know, coming downstairs and having not seen my husband and children for three weeks was a way to say I got through it. It's okay, um, But you know it was it was being the part of the early days was you know, it was a little scary, I'll say that. But Jerry and Jessica did throw toilet paper and fabric softener over the wall, which was incredibly kind. Yeah, that's true friendship. Anyway, I got through it. I got through it, okay, um,

Amy Schumer go be with your baby boy. Okay, Well, I love you. I love you too. Thank you for doing this. You're amazing. Thanks for having me. If you ever want to talk about our vaginas, um, I would like to talk about our vaginas under any circumstances. Well, I mean, and this is no joke. I feel like we have some stuff to say. I think like a vaginas have a lot to say. I think we should let them speak. We'll stay out of it and they'll just talk. Yes, all right, thank you so much, Bye bye.

I can never get enough of Amy Schumer. I love her. I love her. She's funny, she's empowered, she's smart. And Asia is so insightful. My god. I had these two powerhouses on my podcast talking about cancel culture, and I think cancel culture is here, guys. It's here for a while. And I don't even think I can say guys anymore. I think you get canceled for that, um people. So thank you, thank you, Asia, thank you Amy, thank you

for listening to go ask Ali. Be sure to subscribe, rate and review the podcast, and follow me on social media on Twitter at Ali e Wentworth, It on Instagram at the Real Ali Wentworth and If you have questions or guest suggestions, I'd love to hear from you, call it, text me at three to three four six three five six, or email Go Ask Gali podcast at gmail dot com. Go Ask Gali is a production of Shonda land Audio

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