College Class of COVID-19

a number of colleges. I remember when I applied to college, and it was very simple. I applied to an arts college that pretty much guaranteed they'd accept me based on my paintings, and I just stopped there. I didn't even want to go through the stress of applying to school. So this is going to be an interesting topic not only for me, but for most of the parents listening who have kids who will apply have applied to college during a pandemic. It's an overwhelming and trigger inducing topics.

So I opened it up. I want to discuss it with two different people. One of them is Logan Powell. He's the head of emissions at Brown and he's going to share his perspective from within an institution. And then Martin Bonihah, the master at College Prep, and what his new landscape means for the application process and whether higher education makes sense right now. First up, here's my conversation with Logan Power. Welcome Logan, Thank you allie. It's great

to be with you. I'm assuming you are completely inundated and drowning in all kinds of emails and calls about what the hell is going on in college share. Well, you know, I'm getting a lot of questions that presume I'm a fortune teller, and uh, and so I share the frustrations that are applicants and parents and incoming students have because they want to know what the future will look like. And and I wish, I wish I could tell them Alle and I and it changes and even

if you if you know today, it's different tomorrow exactly. Well, I'm uh selfishly, i have a daughter who's going to be a senior next year, and I've noticed a great amount of anxiety between her and her friends about what it's all going to look like for them applying. And then I have, you know, I know so many teenagers that are are going to college for the first time this fall and they don't know what that looks like. This is a huge question, and you can just pretend

we're having technical difficulty if you want to answer. But do you think um online education is the future for universities. I think for some universities it may be. So you know, with almost any question we're asked about college admissions, the future of colle as you admissions, it depends those who can commute to school, those who go to school very locally,

those who attend community college. Is an online experience may be the way for them to go, It may be the way for them to go now, and it may be the wave of the future for them. However, there is another population of students who are really largely trending towards our residential experience. So you know, there is a big part of the college experience that is about learning from your classmates. It's it's not just about what happens

in the classroom. It's about those spontaneous conversations about philosophy and politics and economics that happen well after a class has ended for the day. The other part of it, it's really helpful and and frankly critical. We think UM are the sort of the social educational benefits UM, you know, having to navigate interpersonal relationships in some cases for the first time. That's really a critical part of the college

experience that you can't replicate online. So I do think there is a future for online and patient, but I don't think that online education is the only future for probably a majority of students. I think most students still want to go to college. I think I think most students still want to move, you know, your your old family, like three pound couch up two flights of stairs into your dorm room. Right, that's part of the experience, and it sounds exciting, can wait, I think and beyond? So

I get it. I get it. I mean, I know and I think too about a lot of people in UM communities that are worried about a second wave of a virus, another pandemic, and there seems to be a sense of well, maybe I won't maybe I'll stay and go to a state school. That way, if there's another pandemic, I'm at home, I'm nearby, which I mean, I do understand that argument. However, I'm I believe in the full college experience and I think particularly for international students, they're

gonna want a full college experience. Um Mitchell Stevens, who's an associate producer of education at Stanford, said before the pandemic, higher education was in many ways held together by prayer band aids. International students in a lot of debt. So too, isn't it. I know, I know, UM, I'm sure you're getting inundated with parents saying, well, if it's gonna be virtual, then I don't want to spend all this money because I'm going to be feeding my kids at home and

housing them. How do you answer that question? Well, so far, you know, I can speak in part for what Brown is doing, and I can you know, say a word about what's happening nationally. At Brown, we are making every

plan possible for students to be back on campus. Students have the choice to to learn virtually and and we certainly respect, um, you know, if they have either a health concern, if there's some of the reason and why they can't be on campus, then we certainly uh, you know, we we give them room for that, we give them

space to exercise that freedom. But we are inviting students back to campus, and we have a plan in place changing from a two semester model to a trimester model to allow for de dentification or that you'll hear a lot this this upcoming academic year. Um, well, name my book and there you go. So we have a plan that will allow students to come back to campus in a in a stagger fashion and in a dednsified fashion. Not every school can do that now, and I should say,

in addition to that, there will obviously be rigorous testing. Uh, there will be the ability to contact trace. We have plans in place to isolate students who do test positive. If it does happen, courses will will certainly have a hybrid component to them. Uh, classes will look different. You know that that you know, the the large class of a hundred students sitting side by side and an auditorium won't happen this year, um, But de identified classes will

happen this year. Students will live in dorms this year. That that will all happen for us this year as of now. Yes, I know tomorrow if this podcast things could change. That's that this is the new normal world we live in. Though. That's exactly right, um work school. Um, So this includes international students financial aid students. That's right, yep, great, that's right. We're in a fortunate position. There are there are other schools who, uh you know, who aren't as

financially secure, and you know, certainly that's understandable. They've had to take pretty major hits. You see, there's some pretty big shocks to the system, um, not just for Higher ED but for for everyone frankly. And the shocks to the system are you know, really large decreases in revenue

that some colleges and universities face. At the same time, you have increased costs for you know, installing testing and uh you know, in all of the upgrades you and changes you have to make on camp and by the way, financial aid you know, students now because their families have taken financial hits. Um. You know, on the on the one hand, colleges and universities have lost some revenue because students aren't maybe going to college, they're taking gap years

or leaves of absence. And then on the other hand, you have students who are planning become who need more financial aid than they ever have before in addition to all of the normal costs you incur. So it's a it's a two part shock to the system. That's that's pretty tough for a lot of places to weather. So

let me ask you some questions about that. One is, UM, how does this work if a lot of students this year say I'm so excited to be going to Brown, I'm going to take a gap year or I'm going to defer, how does that affect the next group of students coming in? Will be such an influx? Won't you be flooded with students? And won't you be somewhat anemic next year if everybody's taking gap years because they don't want to be virtual. I think that's the concertain that

that perspective applicants would have. It's not a concern they need to have with us. You know, we were very judicious in the number of gap year requests we granted. Disruptive would be a kind a kind term to use for what has happened to families who are thinking about the college process. So we have returning families we think about, we have incoming first year families we think about UM,

and we have prospective families we think about. And so those prospective families I think are in many cases really concerned that if UM, if you grant, say a hundred gap year requests, that's a hundred fewer spaces in next year's class that are available for for applicants in that

next year. That's not the case for us again, because we were really thoughtful and cautious about how many gap years we offered UM, knowing that there was going to be some feeling of unfairness to some group of students, uh, you know, who might have been impacted. But what we really thought long and hard about was, if you're going to take a gap year, is that a gap year you would have done normally? Because we are allowing students to come to campus, we're encouraging them at this point

to come to campus. And when there have been you know, really compelling reasons that we've seen, required military service, religious obligations, health concerns, all of those things, of course we are more generous about what I tould say. What about students that want to do something right now in an activist kind of way to help people that have been affected

by the by the pandemic. Have you seen that? Have you seen people saying, look, I'm gonna take a gap here because I want to dot dot dot We want to house right right. We we do see that, Alley, and and we appreciate it more than I can tell you. We're in a fortunate position because our first year students at Brown actually don't start until January, and they'll do a spring term and a summer term. And so as a result of that, we've said, please do all the

outreach you ken, and do it this fall. We would love for you to do that, and we have that who have done that, and we hope that they continue that in the fall while maintaining all of the appropriate precautions to remain safe and come here ready to go. Are you asking the question in applications as you're in the future, what did you do during the pandemic? Is that going to be a an application question? It's a

it's a good it's a really good question. So, you know, thinking about how this disrupted this upcoming class of applicants, not just the country but around the world. For some of our prospective families, it has been heartrenching. It has you know, it has had catastrophic consequences for their families, and that level of devastation we're going to see and we're going to be sensitive to and it's it's going to be difficult to read every time we see it,

to be sure. So let me talk about another issue that I've I'm hearing from my teenage pals about past fail grades. You know, there's a concern now that you know they work so hard, um, done so well, and now in their senior year, the teachers are saying, we're going to be past fail and to them, to the teenagers, it's not showing you how much work they've done, how much progress they've had, or the fact that it's an A. You know, it could be a C minus, but no one,

no one knows. Um. I think there's a huge concern about that for them, right right. I think there are I think there are two ways of looking at it. Ali, I think there's that concern, and we have this here that that that same concern, by the way, exists at

the college level. I mean we have you know, across the country, we have a group of incoming seniors who are applying to law school, business school, medical school, applying to PhD programs who were saying, I need a g p A to demonstrate that I'm prepared for graduate professional study or to show my future employer. Uh, that that I'm a good student. The flip side to that coin, though, is uh this digital divide that has existed for years that has been exacerbated as a result of the pandemic UM.

You know, I I personally know Brown families where the student has support and resources and has a private sort of space in the home to study UM and and that and and has you know too caring and and supportive parents who are there for them. And I know Brown students who don't have a home to go home to. They stayed on campus because there is no home for them, or the home or the home maybe five people in a two bedroom apartment, and there may be no WiFi

in their home. And so for that student to be asked to perform at the same level they did before, that student who may not have WiFi, who may not have a private study space, who may not have the support of parents, should we ask that student to be judged on the A B C. D UH rubric. You know, some would argue that that's unfair as well, And so I think there are two sides to it. I completely agree with you. I think so much about so many

families who have been completely devastated by the pandemic. And I think about families not only know they don't have WiFi, but suddenly both of their parents are unemployed and they have to go get a job and they have to now support the family unit in a way they didn't have to before. So it's not just about great. So, I mean, I think that's fantastic. We're gonna take a short break and we'll be right back. Welcome back with more,

go ask Alley. The S A T S is another thing I know that banging your head against a while to hear that's ever asked me about. They haven't let's throw the whole thing away. Um, but that's that has an effect too now because of the pandemic in many ways. Um. And that's for students of all socio economic backgrounds. So how do you how do you sort of speak to students about that now? Right? College testing organizations, So the S A T and the A C T they've done

everything they can. I'm not intending to knock them in any way, but they they also have to be concerned about the health of the students who are coming to take the test. They also have to be concerned about test security, which is why in one case at least there was no testing from home option. But they also have to think about reliable uh Internet connections for students who may have wanted to to take the test online. They have to think about where the tests are offered.

If it's offered in a high school. But so say, say Ali, for example, they wanted to offer the S A T R A c T in the city of Chicago to Chicago Public school. Well, Chicago public schools aren't open this fall, So what then do you? What then do you do? There aren't There aren't a whole lot of options left for those students, nor for the testing agency. So I don't blame them for this. It's not their fault.

For sure, they're they're taking the precautions that they think are appropriate for the students, though it is alted in I think widespread anxiety built on on the uncertainty of whether or not a test will be available, and then then whether or not they'll be penalized for not having a test, or for having one test when they would have normally had three, five, or however many they normally

would have taken. And so what we're doing is um is to do the best we can to say, look, will take all the information that's available from you and from your school and beyond that. We can't ask anything more of you, and and we just want you to be We want you to be healthy, we want you to be safe, we want you to be with your family. Take the precautions you need to take. We're going to do the best job we can. And the sooner we all get comfortable with uncertainty, the more at peace will be.

Even even if it's not what we want, will at least have some understanding that this is the reality we live in for at least a year. I mean, your admissions process this year is going to be something. It's going to be a complete I mean really, it's it's gonna have to kind of change all the optics on how you look at an application right to some degree. Yes, Ali, we we will. You know certainly that the core components remain the same, which is to say we always put

people first. Um. I think I speak from most colleges and universities in the country and saying we should have never made a decision based on standardized testing alone. I think that's not the way to go. I think that's an unfortunate policy. If that's never been the policy at Brown, and it's not going to be the policy this year. We're not going to make decisions based on the presence

or absence of standardized testing. UM. Now, in this case, I should say testing should not have been determinative of a particular outcome this year. Like the rest of the country, we are test optional because it's it's the right thing to do, uh for for our applicants this year. So

it will be it will be different. But I think the key for us is to not hold it against the students who don't have test scores, because I've heard from family least with you know, with enormous resources, and students with no resources, wh all say the same thing, you can't you can't get in to take a test. I mean, this is affecting everyone in the same way. And it doesn't matter what your socio economic status is. If the schools are closed and you can't take the s A T you can't take the s A T UM.

And so we we we realized that and we're going to take that into consideration, right, I mean, which one could say about voting and everything else right now, So and my my last question is UM, now that we're all going to be taking virtual tours, um, have you

had meetings about what that? You know, I've seen your virtual tour now, but I think universities, at least for the next year or so, that's the only way, you know, students that are that are browsing are going to be able to see them, not on foot, not by intuition, but by this virtual tour. Do you feel any pressure to add, you know, put a lot of bells and whistles in your tour? I mean, how do you really show what your university is online? Right? That's a great question.

So there are all these new buzzwords that you here related to the times in which we find ourselves living right now. And you know we talked about d dentification. The other popular buzzword is is asynchronous or asynchronicity. And so what that means is how do you offer tours and information sessions to students around the world in many different time zones? And so what we do Our approach has been to offer sort of a buffet of options,

if you will. So we have recorded tours that students anywhere in the world can enjoy at any time of day or night, um, based on when they're interested in taking the tour. But then we also actually have live virtual tours that are hosted by students, that are led by real Brown students. I would say, Ali, you know, for any prospective student out there, understand that every college or university's website is going to be beautiful. Um, it

never rains, the snow was always clean. If there are snow shots, everyone's happy all the time, and every photo every college is a Disney movie Frozen. I get it. That's right, that's right, exactly. Everything is great. You know,

every day is perfect in your virtual tour. So if if a school offers a live virtual tour to the degree you can learn something about that school from the students who are leading the tour, I think that's probably going to do more than you know, the pretty picture of fall foliage that we're all going to show you. You know, all of those images are going to be

are going to blur together, I think. But I think the feeling that you're left with from the people with whom you interact at that college or university should give you some sense of whether you think you should continue to pursue it as an option or not. Now, let me also, if I can add one caveat. Don't rule a school entirely in or entirely out based on one interaction with one individual. Yes, so if you love that

one tour guide, that's great. But if it happened to not go, well, don't take it as indicative of every person who is affiliated with that institution about a live tour. Anyway, I would say that, you know, a few years ago, when I looked to colleges, Um, I wouldn't you know, I had some dud I had some dud people that showed me around. But yes, I could separate them from

the institution. So I'm going to ask you to do a tiny bit of homework and just say, what are three what's your three best tips or your best advice for students that are going to be applying to college this year. What can you say to them based on the fact that that we're living in this pandemic right now that can be helpful to them? Oh gosh, only three? Ali, I feel so constrained. Um, you know, I'm glad you's fantastic. I do, and you know, but they really center. I

think they may maybe they'll surprise you, maybe not. So I would say, you know, be comfortable be as comfortable as you can with the uncertainty of what this year is going to look like. UM, I would say, be patient. Um, you know there there are a lot of families out there who want to know, again, going back to where we started, what will you know? What will December look like? What will January look like? How about what will tomorrow

look like? We you know, we don't know, so you know, certainly having some perspective that things will be different, being patient in knowing that as soon as colleges and universities have policies or decisions that they can make, um, that they can make them. Um, and know that, um, you know, this year is going to be different, but they're going to be successful. They're going to find a way to

be successful there. Look for those areas of support and our lives, whether it's a parent, guardian, uh, you know, teacher, mentor coach, look for those areas of support and lean on those and then also offer offer that support to other people. So I'm getting beyond three. But but Ali,

I wouldn't focus on grades and test scores. Um. You know, I would say to students, do the best you can and understand that we're going to We're going to be as flexible and as sensitive to how disruptive this year has been as we possibly can be, and to keep things in perspective. Logan Pal, I can't tell you how much you've done for the anxiety for so many I mean truly, because you know we look for every little crumb of of understanding and also to ease our own

anxiety about what's going on. You have been very helpful. Logan Pal is the President of Admissions at Brown University. UM I may not have to take a zanex later, so thank you for that. Thank you for your time, and keep doing the wonderful things you do Brown, And thank you for talking to me today. Well. Thank you for the time, Ali, I really appreciate it. And good luck to all the college going students out there. I wish them all well. Stick around because up next I

have the Master of College Prep, Martin Bonilla. Right after this quick break, welcome back, I'm here with my second guest, Martin Bonia. He is the director of college Counseling at the College Prep School in Oakland, California. Martin, thank you so much for being with us, UM. Thanks for having me Ali. Martin, I gotta tell you. Everybody is talking about, particularly if you're a parent, what school looks like for

every age. But since I'm talking about a teenager, chances are they are thinking about applying to college or they are applying to college. And so I want you on today to help us kind of figure out what to do about this. How do we apply these days? I mean pre pandemic. What were the factors that you advised kids on when they were considering, uh, applying to universities while the structure, the infrastructure is still kind of the same. If you can think of applying to college, um in

three general buckets. Okay, the most important bucket is the first bucket, you know, that's you know, is the student. Uh do they have the academic foundation to thrive? You know in my college curriculum. Um, So there are those data points high school, you know, trend and grades, testing,

those those pieces. But once that match has been made, you know, a second bucket, you might say, is support from the high school, the college councilor you know who's like, Okay, there is there's Ali Wentworth, there's the high school, and there's Ali Wentworth at the high school. That's the job of the college council to sort of capture Ali within the context of the high school, right, That's that's what

they're sharing, um. And then there's the two teacher recommendations that kind of share what kind of student, you know, Ali is classroom and the experiences and you know, what dynamic does she bring to the classroom contained can she respectfully agree, disagree, etcetera. And then the sort of third bucket is more up close and personal things like interviews, essays, and the depth and breath in the extracurricular involvement for

the student. That is another set of assessment. So that's sort of the general criteria in which the you know, kids are are sort of being evaluated, but of course challenging for the college because they also have institutional priorities like I have an army of faculty and staff that work here, and they have children. So if their child applies, I probably have to take a close look at that. I have alumni children, I have to look at that.

I have athletics. I have to look at that, you know, so there are a lot of other factors, um that that are considered. What happens if their past fail this year, which is my daughter is for a lot of schools. In the spring, there was the past fail option, but there was still you know, two and a half years of grades and there's one semester of pass and then there's the senior year, right, so the g p A will be based on two and a half years and not you know, three full years, and then they will

be like, Okay, how are you doing senior years? So that's a that's a slight change. But the academic performance in the classroom is still the most important criteria that has not changed. There's also the testing that is a stressful, uh component of the process for the kids and the parents, because it's something that parents have informed themselves about since sophomore year. I know there are a lot of things I don't control, but I know my kid has to

take this test. So we're going to invest in S A T prep and then they're going to do all this practice and like they're ready, and then the test doesn't happen and then they YEA. I say Martin that I'm actually glad that the tests might be obsolete. I don't know if I'm going to get in trouble for this, but I was a very creative student and I did not do well in the test, and I didn't like that I was being judged on that. And I think that there are a lot of students and a lot

of parents that don't agree with it. That they think that for some teens it's it's sort of sets them up to fail. So is there a silver lining? Maybe? Is it a good thing that that the tests might be obsolete or that you don't have to apply with them? Um? I think that there are success stories for schools that have been test optional. So for the bulk of the colleges, it's their first time, right, So for the parents, it's like, wait,

test optional? What does that mean? You know? It's like, well you can if you take the test and there are sports that you think will help your candidate, See you submit them? And how do you determine that? Well, maybe you go to the school's website and you see what their average is and if you're within the average, are a little higher? Okay, sounds like a good idea to the test. If you don't submit them, are they going to assume that you did badly and that's why

you're not submitting them? I don't. I don't think they're going to assume that I'm actually proud of the colleges because they kind of sense the groundswell of stress coming from the testing, and they're like, what can we do responsibly as the adults of this process to take the

temperature down if kids aren't able to test? And I think because there have been schools at all levels of selectivity that have been test optional and there's a roadmap, my senses is that those deans of admissions have been tapping the expertise of their peers who have gone down that road and been like, oh, if they can do what, we can do it so too. You know, back to your question, I think it's going to be an interesting

few years. I think it's entirely possible that we stay test optional, and it's possible that, you know, if colleges are able to enroll the kind of classes that they're excited about and testing did not factor into the decision, maybe colleges start to use other criteria instead of testing, Like, you know what, why don't you send me two or three graded papers, you know, one from English, one from history,

maybe one from a world language. Send me a graded science exam, a graded math exam, and I can kind of see your work you know, and how you're doing, and maybe that becomes criteria and not the big test. I mean, there's no scenario where universities or colleges will come up with their own test. Meaning if you're going to apply to UH Stanford, we have our own specific Stanford test we want you to take. You don't see that happening to you. I think that's actually a remote possibility.

You have a lot of loyal alumni you know of an institution who want to stay engaged and maybe this sort of traditional interview used to be the way they would engage. Maybe that they use the army of volunteers in a different way. It's like, these students have applied and we would like some more information from the student. And also we've come up with a little one hour tests, Um, would you mind hosting that, you know, in some kind of like office venue for us? I do think that

is possible. So going back to the a point of stress for the parents and that sort of academic hurdle right there, So the how is the past bail gonna work? Right? And then what about you know, the testing? What the calluses are saying we can go test optional is because we have other tools that can help us. Right, So when what the colleges have is data they have for every high school the kids that applied for as far back as they want one year, two, three, four, five,

and they can kind of see the trends. But a more important data piece for them is they can pull a roster of say the last five to ten years, and say, of the kids at high school X in the city of Chicago who have come to my institution, I have what their profile looked like when they applied, and we obviously accepted them. They're here, and I have how they have performed at my college. Right, So it's

how it's how high schools build reputations. Right If if if say my school, I had five kids at college X, and you know, on average they had a three point five three point six unweighted g p A from my school, but they were at the college and they have three eights, you know, three five, three point nine. As it grew up, you're going to set yourself as the original person. Wow, the academic foundation that these kids have built at this high school is really aligning well with our college curriculum.

They are a great match for us. They are outperformed. We accepted them for many reasons, but they in the most important thing, they are really really an x They are in alignment with our curriculum. They are really hitting a home run. That is how high schools build their reputation. So I think the colleges are going to rely on

that kind of data piece. Where it might hurt is I go to a most likely a public institution, and uh, in the spring, I went past fail and I don't have any testing, and it's a new high school where there's new data, where there's no set like I think,

go back and look what's happened. So for for you know, kids in that situation, I think, in to answer your question, a college might identify that student as somebody they want on campus because all the other factors are so compelling, but they're not sure, so they might design kind of special you know, exam that maybe even it's just sent to the college counselor, and I have to sort of procter that. Now, let me ask you this, Because of COVID nineteen, a lot of schools are losing money, a

lot of colleges and universities are losing money. And how do you foresee that translating into scholarships and financial aid. Oh wow. Um. I think the well the well endowed schools are still going to be able to deliver, because that's just a priority. But I do think that there's a lot of schools that are need aware to begin with.

Whole will now be even more need aware, and and colleges might have to make a choice of I need to enroll a class, you know, and and these families want to come, and and in this year, you know, they are a full pay family, and they're in the ballpark, and based on all other factors, I probably want to take more of them, but I also want to round

out the class. And I might see I might make a strategic decision and say, I've only got I can take five middle class kids and offer them ten thousand, or I can offer one kid fifty, right, because that's what they that's what they need to come. I think. I think when you're in that bracket and you're trying to fill a class, you're like, this is a year

where you know, my hands are tied. I have to offer, you know, ten thousand to these five families because I have maybe one or two or three of them will come. I could offer fifty for this one kid, and I don't even know if they'll come. So from the college side, I think they are dealing with what we're dealing with, uncertainty and if they can have a certainty, I know you want to come UM, I know you can pay, and you know you're not You're not to break the budget.

That leaves you money in the bank. For me, UM, I think that community is going to do well and the next I mean that that changes the whole diversity of those upcoming college classes. You know what I mean?

That should be incredibly worrisome for us. Yeah, I mean what has made college UM so attractive to kids is right, like, if you just go to the website for any private, relative selective school and you go to their admissions website, one of the things you're you're you can click on is like what is the profile of the incoming class?

And the colleges are so proud, right, you know, you have the little map of the US and it's like fifty kids from California and twenty from Minnesota, and like right there showing you it's like we have all fifty states represented. Ten to twelve percent of our kids are coming from outside the US, from three D countries and you know, or first in their family leads to go to college, right like they're telling you it's like this, you know, is what we have to offer. I think

that's gonna be harder. Having geographic balance might be something that is sacrificed. But I do think as far as things like diversity of voices and experiences are still going to be valued. It's an institutional priority, you know, for the colleges, and they will work very hard to have that kind of balance in the class. I think it'll change for some middle for some middle class kids. I think for my parent community, I try and get them

to focus what they can control. I help them identify you can't control, you can't control who's applying early decision, like is this a good bet traditionally, but we don't know what the fall is gonna look like. Everything is a little bit of a risk. But you know, Mrs Jones, here's what you can focus on. And what are you telling Mrs Jones? What can we telling Mrs Jones. She's like, look, Martin,

you're so funny, ha ha ha. I've come to your sopht Mark parent night, and then I went to your junior parent night and Mrs j yeah, we're just you're giving us appropriate doses of you know, like what we should be thinking about. But now I'm here and I'm a senior parent and I need you to tell me what to do because I don't know what it is.

And I'm like, okay, I get it. I've told you that this is a process where you have to allow your child to step into the spotlight and you have to kind of take a step back and that can be hard. Number One, be a champion for your child. Don't be a critic right there. Very sensitive right now, So like, don't insist on reading the essay and being like, you know, I really couldn't sleep. But in the second paragraph you use the word galvanized, and I think this

word might be better. That's not helpful, so I think it Just just support your child, chair them on and just say you've got this. I have full confidence in you if you need me off for help, but don't insist on it. Um. I tell Mrs Jones that she needs to say her relationship with her child evolving. She's used to being the manager, but the kids are not dealing well with directives right now. They're trying to be

a little more independent. So I told Mrs Jones, just start thinking of yourself for as a consultant for your child, not as the manager. So just speak. It's like, oh what happened, it's cool today. Oh that happened. I had a similar experience at your age. Here was here was the scenario. Here's how I handled it, Here's how it worked out. UM, good luck. If you need me, I'm happy to share other things as opposed to you need to do this because the relationship is changing. Even with me.

When I first start working with the kids, I give them colleges and I give them things to do, and they're like, well, you're the college council, so I'm just gonna do what you say. But now when I give the stuff, it's like, I'm going to take that under consideration. Thank you for suggesting those three schools. I'm gonna do my own research. I will get back to and tell you how i feel. I'm like perfect that. What are

you telling parents? Um about virtual tours? A lot of students weren't able to go see colleges this spring, and so they're basically choosing off of uh, you know, some made little film or some you know, visual utopia that they're seeing online. That's not really visiting schools. It's not visiting schools on personality. And you haven't you haven't gotten to This would have been your summer, right, Yeah, I was supposed to do that, you know, get a get

a rental car and just drive around and look at schools. Sure, I mean there is a benefit to that, but truthfully, it's like my kids are like, they have to make a case. Why is the school going to be on my list? Why is it not on the list? And they have to kind of prove it to me, and

it's work and they're like, oh, Martin post COVID. It's so much easier because I just go to you know, Baits College, you know, admissions visit and they have an open house and I click and I put my headphones on, and you know, someone gives a live presentation, which leads to a live tour, which then leads to a way if you want more, you know, you can sit in on a student panel. You can like all that research you wanted me to do. I don't have to just

take notes from the virtual experiences. So the shopping part is easier for the kids. So that might stick right. I mean, I'm gonna I'm gonna miss getting fried claims at friendlyies and the whole ritual of driving with my daughter. But you're making me feel better because I really thought we were at such a disadvantage because we didn't actually,

you know, stomp our sneakers across the grounds. I think, you know, when I worked on college admission, it's been like two months traveling around the country rental cars, hotels, all that the colleges are going to save a lot of money, and so well parents, by the way, and so well parents. So I think this is this is this is a good thing because also there's so many families that do not have the opportunity to colleges. Period. I did not see my college, you know, I just

didn't have the resources for that. So I think that's a good thing overall. It gives everybody access. What is that criteria that you tell your students to consider when narrowing down what colleges they want to apply to. I kind of break it down for them into three components. One is, you know, they should look at the history and the philosophy of the school. Um, I always tell them to do a Google map. What does it take

to get there? Is at one plane and a taxi writer or is it two planes and a bus like That's that will have an impact on them. Things like size and locations, so just basic facts of the institution. But the second part is more specific to the student. What are your current academic and intellectual interests and how will those interests be served at that institution? So that's when they have to dig into, like the academic program that the school has. Does it have a quar curriculum?

Does it not? Is it really unstructured? You know, how is that going to affect you? Um, are your majors? There are there special opportunities academically, So they're kind of like, oh, I have to see my So you're telling me, Martin, I have to see myself. How will I satisfy myself academically at the school for four years? I'm like, right, what were your four year academic plan look like? If you go here, will it serve you well? Like? Great?

Got it? And then the third part it's a little harder to do, but that's you know, what kind of kids are you going to be surrounded by? That's that's difficult to assess. But there are places to look for clues. Um, you know, I tell the kids what are your current you know, not you know, non scholastic interests, So like, well, I like science, olympia, ad and robotics and you know Shakespeare. I'm like, great, let's look at the full menu of activities at that institution and try and find yourself in

these clubs. So when we pluck you out of your lovely home and are our nice, warm, fuzzy school atmosphere and pluck you down in small town Illinois, what resources are there at that school where you're going to be able to recreate your community of friends? Is there going to be a soft landing? Um? And then also a good other place to get information is in the student newspaper, which tends to be you know, independent from the institution.

And I don't tell the kids they have to read all that, but I'm like, what are the headlines, what are the letters to the editor. There's a calendar of events. You can kind of see what's happening, and you will learn something about the community even though you're not physically there. And then I tell them it's like, okay, like, based on this minute back finding exercise, what is your impression thumbs up, thumbs down. I don't know, give me more information.

That's sort of a first first review. Excellent And what are you okay? So we've gone through the shopping now application wise, what kind of advice do you have for parents? How about? How about concerning the essay? I know you're saying don't micromanage them, but should they change? Does this

subject change now that we're in a pandemic? I guess all the big advice I have is like, maybe don't write about COVID right, Um, you know, now we're in COVID, and an instinct might be like I'm going to tell the college like what happened to me, But it's happening to all of us. And if the essay is supposed to come from a unique place, um, that's not something that's going to be unique. We all have, you know

that story. I mean, there's so many other things going on in our world right now that it just might not have the impact the impact. So I would say we all had stories pre March, and maybe that good advice would be to sort of dig into those stories and those might reflect better on the kid. And then just as far as parents, college councils, are well aware of the voice, of the authenticity of a seventeen year old voice apparent reading as it can cause more stress.

You know, I'm completely hands off for that reason. UM, I want to ask you a question, Martin, because you know, we've we've heard a lot of cautionary tales about social media in terms of college acceptance. I have a very naive question as a parent, which is do they when they see let's say, instat stories of a lot of partying, a lot of alcoholism, um or uh, sort of inappropriate

behavior socially, does that have an effect on their admissions? Oh? Yes, because because if it's also like, right, you were overserved at a party and somebody recorded you and you said something inappropriate, um, that can easily be beheld against you. And again from the college point of view, what do you know? My parents asked, like, what is it? What is it about activities and these recommendations. I'm like, well, your child lives in your house. They live in your house.

But what you're asking, it's like, I want to come live in your house for four years. You're going to be the parents, right, You're going to come live in my house for four years and guess what as the college, I want well behaved children, So that's that's important. Yeah, you have to remain a good citizen, not just of your school, but beyond all. Right, now, I've gotten so

many great nuggets of wisdom for you. And as we end this conversation, are there any more big headlines or big bullet points of advice you can give to parents in the application process? Yes? Um, right now, I'm just gonna take your situation. Ali. You probably probably have an extended family, and your partner probably has an extended family. And because your daughter is going to be a senior, everyone's going to want to be in their business. Oh,

you're applying to college. Where are you applying? Why are you applying there? These are the schools I like, why aren't you applying to that? For these kids, it can be a very personal process. It's a very personal journey. So I think it's important for parents to protect your kid and help them pivot in those uncomfortable conversations during the holidays, even if it's on zoom. Um, that's great information, thank you so much. Just pivot to redirect the conversation.

But the parents can be very helpful, um, and redirecting that conversation. Um, I think something very important to me as a college counselor. It takes a lot of work two get kids to ten to twelve schools to apply to that are well rounded, that we are protecting them and has a certain amount of reaches. If you can imagine a pyramid, you know for schools three schools, two schools, one school, one super reach, two good reaches, three probables

and four high probability schools. That's great, that kid is being set up for mostly good news. That's a good thing. But it is important for parents not to flip the pyramid the other way, right, like it's like, oh, one high problem, Like we're just we're we're real risk takers. That's really hard. It's easy for the parents to want that.

It's hard for the kids emotionally too to look at the selectivity of the group of schools on their listen go wow, wow, this is this is you know, hazardous emotionally, like I'm stressed. So it's important for the parents to respect the well rounded list. And also it's a responsibility, I think of the parents to celebrate all of the schools on the list when they are identified. So even if a parent doesn't know, you know, about a school. It's their job to go get intelligence on that school

and talk about that school. You know what, darling, you like that school. I found out a friend of mine, you know, their daughter went there and she said great things, and I went and I did the tour too, and like, it looks really cool and I can see why you like it. They have to talk about all the schools because for the kids, that validates the school for them. And I think, you know, self care, we talk a

lot about self are in this pandemic um. The families who I think have handled uh COVID since March really well are the families that turned self care into family care. Waking up at the same time together and going on on walks in their neighborhood and then coming back and having breakfast together instead of dinner, right setting up the day.

And then you know, some families have taken language classes together, you know, for an hour, it's like, oh, we're going to do French together, We're gonna go guarden together, We're going to build a shed together, and we'll see in the opposite where there was unstructured situations and I would be talking to some you know, kids at you know, noon, and they were just waking up and I was like, well,

what happened? I was watching Netflix until you know, and they just you know which, By the way, I think that was okay at the beginning of quarantine, because I think that a lot of kids needed to Everybody was scared, there was a lot of stress. They needed to kind

of you know, go go inside a little bit. But I agree with you that after a couple of weeks of that, everybody had to kind of all right, you know, how are we going to structure, like you said, how we're going to structure our day, how we're going to structure our life? And basically I'm I'm saying it's okay to me because I let my kids do that for a couple of weeks, you know, because I was kind

of doing the same thing. Yeah. I think one other last anecdote, especially as you get closer to like the kid has applied and they're going to hear is that, um they feel like, oh what if I don't get in, They're going to be so disappointed. You know. It's probably a good idea for parents Huven starting now to start sharing you know, times in their lives when things didn't

go their way. I didn't get into all my colleges or I really wanted that job at this agency when I got out of college, and I didn't get it, and so I made a laft And you know, they just they think it's been a smooth row for you, Martin. Oh, Martin, I have so many stories my children. They know I think I think it's helpful for them. Just absolutely that it's gonna be okay and that things will happen. Martin Bonia, thank you so much. This was so incredibly helpful pleasure, Ali.

Thank you for including me. Thank you to my guests, Logan Powell and Martin Bonia, and thank you all for listening. Be sure to subscribe, rate and leave a review, and follow me in my undoctored posts on social media. I'm on Twitter at Ali e Wentworth and on Instagram at the Real Ali Wentworth. Go ask Ali is a production of Shonda land Audio and partnership with I Heart Radio.

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