¶ Intro / Opening
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¶ African Hopes, History, and New Entrants
Hello, I'm Valerie Saunderson from the Global News Podcast. With the World Cup now underway, we thought you'd enjoy hearing from another BBC World Service podcast more than the score. All through the tournament they'll be telling stories of the new teams, standout stars, trends and fandoms changing the game in ways the stats simply don't show.
In this episode, they're asking if any of the ten African nations in this year's tournament could win it all. You can listen to the whole episode right here, and I hope you enjoy it.
Hello, I'm Lee James and this is More Than the Score, the BBC World Service podcast that's looking at the stories beyond the score sheets at the FIFA Men's World Cup. Half a century on from Pelle's infamous prophecy that an African nation will win the World Cup before the year 2000, could this finally be the tournament where the continent delivers its maiden global title?
🎵 Music
Cameroon's run to the nineteen ninety quarter final was the first of Africa's significant achievements, emulated by Senegal in two thousand and two and Ghana in twenty ten, and then surpassed by Morocco at the last tournament in Qatar in twenty twenty two. When they produce the watershed moment reaching the semifinals. Now a record ten African nations will compete at these World Cup finals. Could one of those nations deliver Africa's first World Cup?
Well the Democratic Republic of Congo are represented for only the second time in their history, and their former captain, Gabriel Zakwani, is with us, along with the former Sierra Leone captain and Premier League defender Stephen Kolker. Hello to you both.
Hi, how are you doing?
Welcome both of you. This is a specially extended edition of the More Than the Score podcast because we've got so much to fit in. But first of all, Gabby, you must be tremendously proud that the Leopards are back on the world stage then, playing at their first finals for over fifty years.
Yeah, I mean, obviously I'm absolutely buzzing. Uh it's still taking time to sink in, you know, everything all the preparations gone for this over the last four years. I would say we've really took one hundred percent in focus in getting to the World Cup and Sources that you realize, but we're not there just to make up the numbers. So we're there to compete and the hard work really starts now.
Stephen, you played in World Cup qualifiers for Sierra Leone. You know that Africa's qualification process for the tournament. has arguably been the most brutal in world football. Strong teams often missed out on the global showpiece. How important now we've got ten teams then representing the continent at the finals.
Yeah, such a good opportunity for African football to really go and showcase what they've got. They've got so much individual talent, and I think what we're seeing now are teams. really well prepared by their coaches. I think we're seeing not just the individual talent now. I think we're now seeing a collective unit and, you know, Morocco set the standard in the last World Cup. And I'm really excited to see what the teams can do this year. I think that there may be one or two surprises in that.
And great opportunities uh for all, but Stephen, for a team like Cat Verde making their debut, they'll be the fourteenth African nation to have played at the World Cup finals. It is special, isn't it, for players and for everyone connected to the country.
It's a fairy tale, honestly. Like when I look at it, I'm a little bit jealous, in all honesty, at what they've managed to achieve. It's such a small country, but they've managed to recruit really well. They've got a team together there. Like I said, it's it's a team that plays collectively. They've they've got of course individual talent, but it's how they play collectively that had brought them the success. It's really, really exciting for Cape Verde. I think for all
of African foot. I think everyone has a soft spot for them. You know, of course, uh Gabby would say and he's rooting for Dial Congo, but I think if you're to choose a second team, I think hey Verde's the one because there is a a real soft spot for them amongst us Africans.
Yeah, if you're picking a second team, perhaps Cap Verde will see what their prospects are like a little later then.
¶ Infrastructure and Development Challenges
Now, it is difficult to win a World Cup. Only eight nations have managed to do it, representing only two continents. So Africa is not alone in seeking this first continental winner. Historically there just weren't sufficient opportunities to qualify. That said though, what what do you both believe has historically held back teams from Africa then, Gabby, first of all?
I think the infrastructure I think is the first part. I think there's not really been too much focus on it. Um Morocco have gone above and beyond in Africa to to make sure they've got the infrastructure for the for the men's, the women, everyone involved. And to make sure and we've seen the effects of that w at the last World Cup, you know, where where they they actually did really well, they went really deep into the World Cup.
I think that shows that if if everyone really um with the funding uh focuses on the football, it could really uh then level the playing field. But I I just think that's been the difference. Um and Morocco are showing that it's possible to start bridging that gap when you start really investing in football in your country.
So that's putting the money in then, Gabby, to get better facilities, better pitches to train on, everything that comes with that.
Yeah, everything that comes to that. I mean with with with the DRC we've used their facilities. as well and we haven't got that level of facilities. So when we have training camps, there's been times where we've gone to Morocco and used their facilities and it is incredible. You know, it that it's not too far from what you see with the England team.
up north in in in Derby, having having that that facility and and uh with the women's team and everyone involved the hotels, they've got everything that you can need as a as as a professional footballer. So I I think seeing that in Morocco and other countries using their their base to to to do their training camp just shows you how far they've gone. And then their result in the World Cup tells you exactly what it can do to a to a nation.
Stephen, you represented England at younger age group levels before switching allegiances to Sierra Leone. What are your observations then on that then and the and the challenges that players can face when representing international football teams in Africa?
Debbie's a hundred percent hit the nail on the head. Infrastructure has been the the biggest I think uh pullback really for a lot of African nations. I certainly experienced that with Sierra Leone, switching allegiances from England where everything's done for you to then go into Sierra Leone. Listen, they've made a lot of progress in recent years, as have a lot of the countries. I won't add to what Gabby mentioned there would be as part of the infrastructure is the travel
That's been a big, big issue across African football for a long time. The travel, how you prepare for the game is is massive. If you're getting on flights, three, four, indirect flights, travelling twenty, twenty four hours at a time, sleeping at airports and then having to play a day or two later.
Of course that's naturally going to give the opposition an advantage. So I think closing the gap on that, you mentioned Morocco having top facilities and you know as as part of Sierra Leone, we used to all the time go to Morocco and play there. Ivory Coast
now off the back of that kind of now got the stadiums and the infrastructure there now where we we often use their facilities. So there are other African nations building that. And what and the last thing I'll add is if you look at Senegal, what they've done is they've built
from the bottom up. You know, they've built with the with the youth teams, they've put a heavy focus into that. They've not just gone right, okay, we're gonna get a result magically through Sardo Money. They've actually gone right, let's build a team from scratch and and that's what they've done there. And I feel that
They're reaping the rewards. You know, there's a lot of talk around Morocco, but I'm a big fan of Senegal. In my eyes, they're still the people's champions from the last half gone. And I think that, you know, teams can learn from both Morocco and Senegal in terms of development.
¶ Diaspora Talent and Player Inspiration
So it's about putting resources in then. And sometimes those resources can be scarce, so it's about how you direct those those funds in the right way then.
Absolutely. putting the money in the right hands to begin with and then making the right decisions about it. Of course, it's it's not always easy. People are gonna make mistakes at the top from all the way from the top to the bottom. People are gonna make that. And I think players are understanding of that.
But let's make sure that when the money is there, that it is going to the right the right places. Another thing I'd add is is recruitment. So a lot of what, you know, Cape Verde we just spoke about, they were gonna recruit players that are playing abroad that have
you know, some kind of connection to the country. My mys myself uh being a good example with Sierra Leone. My granddad was born there and through that link that was how I then represented the country. So I think recruitment's also been a big part in in helping strengthen a lot of nations.
And Gabby, that's something that that you're working with with the Democratic Republic of Congo, working with those younger age group levels to try and ensure that the nation has the very best talent then from the diaspora of Players from around the world, from the European born players perhaps with Congolese heritage.
Yeah, I mean what what with with African countries there's a lot of players who are playing in Europe but then don't see the the African country as their sort of their their home and that they'd rather play for sort of the bigger nation in in sort of Invert comments.
I think when when teams are starting to make it to the World Cup, for example like the DRC this year, um with Cape Verde, it's easier to attract players to from the European countries than to to go back home and to start representing their countries. So
I I think it's just it's a mixture of so many things. I think infrastructure is a massive thing. I think recruitment is massive. And also you have to do well to to get the players to to to believe in your vision as well. So I think teams starting to do better and go into World Cup. And doing well in African Cup of Nation tournaments will encourage the younger generation to want to emulate those players. So I think it's it all goes hand in hand.
So they've got to have those role models then. That's what you're telling the players that you speak to to try and encourage them to represent the Democratic Republic of Congo. They can see now that there is a pathway there.
Yeah, I mean uh what before the path pathway was uh wasn't really there. You know, it was just a hope and we can make it happen together. But now I think they can see the work that's been put in to now want to play at the biggest stage. Potentially they can't play for England. They won't play for Belgium. They won't play for France.
But they can still get to the World Cup and represent their their their country, which is massive. And the biggest example I think is Axel Twanzibi. You know, he's gone through the system with the England With the England team. I had a conversation with him, I think it's probably four years ago, and then he scores the goal to get us to the World Cup, you know. So that is the
sort of fairy tale ending to it and probably the story I'll use for the next player that I try and get into the country. So I think it's uh it it is something that is obviously working. But I just think players need to believe in the vision. Um and that that that story there with Twan Zebi and Aaron Wan Pisaka coming through and getting the the country to the World Cup over the line, I think it can inspire the next generation.
You take all the credit for that, Gabby.
Yeah, you said it, not me.
Stephen, what encouraged you to make that switch then, having represented England and perhaps at one stage thought that was the dream to play for England at full international level and then represented Sierra Leone and went on to play at an Africa Cup of Nations.
Do you know what? Similar to the role that Gabby played, I had Carlton Cole on the phone to me, so Carlton Cole with Sierra Leone Heritage and have actually represented the country, but it a strong connections there.
reached out and said, Look, you know, my uncle's part of the committee there, they wanna they wanna bring you in and you're up having a conversation and I'm I'm always someone that's open to having the conversation. I never know where that's going to lead to but I I felt after speaking with the coach
This feels like really ex a really exciting challenge. It's something that came much later on in my career and I kinda wish it came earlier on. But I can really relate to the the stories there that Gabby's talking about. I I'm finding it a little bit harder with Sierra de Ome because there isn't that
you know, sort of dream of look, the World Cup, look, even AFCON right now is a bit of a stretch. So it is really difficult, but I find it quite interesting that we're we're both kind of doing similar roles but at different stages. So we're at that beginning stage and I will now use the story of the Alcongo and say, Look, look, there is that success. It is possible over the road. It just takes I think one or two slightly bigger names, let's say, to make the decision to go.
And then I think the rest will follow and it's it's it's really I think it's an exciting time for African football'cause it's very much on the rise and people are standing up and taking notes.
¶ Coaching Impact and Morocco's Legacy
Yeah, of course there's so much talent is there, Gabby, and that could be tapped into that could represent African nations. The likes of Kilin and Mbappe, of course, uh could have played uh on the continent. But
It's about developing that talent. And we can't say there isn't it there isn't that talent there that that could have delivered a World Cup already. We've seen so many wonderful top African Footballers even this tournament with the likes of Sadiomani, Mohammed Salah, Riyadh's okay, towards the end of their careers, but certainly falling into that category where they've certainly delivered for their countries, Gabit.
Yeah, no, they have they have delivered to their countries. But I think it's just it's it's always we're missing that final part still when it comes to to the African sort of giants that are doing well uh when it comes to African football. But again, I think we just go back to the last tournament. I think Morocco did very well. Um and then now you've seen that you've mentioned
Sadio Mane, Senegal, for me are probably the best team in Africa at this moment in time, you know, and they if they can go that extra step, it would be great. But there's always at the mo at this moment in time, there is something missing, and probably those points that we made earlier about infrastructure and
to make sure that that that they are doing things correctly. Um, just like the sort of the big European countries would probably be the bit that that they can bridge the gap. But at this moment in time I think there's so much talent and I think having ten teams There will be a surprise or one of the African teams surely will go deep into the tournament.
Anything in the fact that the successes have come with home grown coaches, Gabi, Walid Ragragi with Morocco. to the World Cup semi finals at recent Africa Cup of Nations, some S Fe with Ivory Coast, Pap Diao with Senegal, sort of validated that homegrown coaching model. I noticed only four of the ten teams this time have local coaches, but Can that make a real difference?
It can, I mean, it's someone that can resonate and someone that that will be probably a bit more passionate because that's where they're from and it you know, they they're they're a fan as well. So it will it does make probably give them that extra ten percent on the side. But I'm just still not sure if that makes the the full difference because at the end of the day they have to be, you know, ready to to manage at at the big stage and to deal with the pressure. So it all comes with a
with a lot of uh different attributes that you need as a manager. But I think that can make a difference and it shows in terms of success you can see with Morocco, with Senegal, with with you know with with countries that have gone and gone on and done well. that it can give them that extra ten percent because they've got someone that really resonates with the country.
Uh and what do you think, Stephen, Morocco's journey to the semifinals has done? It shattered that quarter final. ceiling that had frustrated African ambition since Cameroons run in nineteen ninety. So what has that done for expectations now that we have seen an African team really move from participant to contender?
Mae'n gwneud yn gallu bod wedi'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i
There's this oh if we just get there why not? There there's it's it is possible. Of course it's gonna be difficult coming up against some great nations with great players who are very well organised. But I just wanna mention the the coaches that you spoke about there. I I'm actually a big fan of
home grown coaches. I think it's it's really important that the coaches do have the connection with the country. They do have the connection with the players. I mean it's just my opinion. I mean if you look where we're sat today in England, you've you've got a German manager who may well bring England the the World Cup. it it's a matter of opinion but I I do believe having someone who's been there, knows the country inside out, knows what it means'cause ultimately
When you get to that level and and you know, you're there, you're competing on that stage, a lot of it is about the the feeling. You know, what's what's what's the energy like within the dressing room. Of course tactics play their part, but the biggest part when when the players walk out on that pitch,
is how they're feeling collectively. And then the manager for me is the one who who leads the way. And I'm I'm really excited to see I'm excited to see of course Salah probably at his, you know, last World Cup. I'm excited to see what Ivory Coast bring to the table. South Africa who are my dark horse in Afcon.
what can they do in the World Cup? I've I've always speak highly of South Africa. I'm waiting for that to to come to fruition and to sit on this call and say, I told you South Africa are a good team but you know there's there is there's just so much to talk about and it it's a really exciting tournament ahead.
Yeah, we'll go through each of those teams shortly. I mean just finally on the coaches. I suppose it depends what kind of project it is, uh, Gabby as well, whether that European coach has been at the country for a long period of time and has really built up that team, or whether, as we've seen in previous tournaments,
Yeah, a a big European name is just brought in for the World Cup finals. Carlos Kirash has been appointed by Ghana for these World Cup finals at at a very late stage and and often perhaps hasn't had that connection.
Yeah, I mean connection is always important. You know, we we've tried the the homegrown route before, uh, where we had Ibenge who did very well at sort of the the African Cup of Nations but always fell short of the World Cup stage. Then we brought in Sebastian de Sabre who has that European connection, probably helps with the recruitment as well, um, and he has that African experience.
And to me, a part he he is French but he he seems like he's Congolese every time we have a conversation because he's so passionate about about the DRC and spends a lot of his time in the DRC even when there's no games, you know, watching. players coming through and trying to build the infrastructure. So it is just about what they represent and what they want to do with the country. And if they are very invested, then they can be as as crucial as someone who's home.
And before we go through the teams this time around, can either of you honestly say that an African team has has missed out? Perhaps obviously Morocco, having got to a semi final, could well have gone on to win that tournament, but we've had some big shots Senegal beating France and their run in two thousand and two, Cameroon in nineteen ninety with Argentina. But can we honestly say that there's an African team that's missed out on a World Cup anywhere down the line, Stephen? What do you think?
Not in my opinion. Not in my opinion, I don't think. I think at the end of the tournament the best team wins. And I think that you know, if they've fallen short, they've fallen short for a reason. Whether that's the infrastructure that we've mentioned, whether that be the recruitment, whether that should be a bit bad luck.
You always need a little bit of luck to to win anything in in in football, you always need a little bit of luck. So I think there's many factors as to why the African teams haven't yet won it, but are have they been deserving of it? No, not in my opinion. Not yet. But hopefully this tournament will will change that.
Gabby, Ghana will say a certain handball, of course, in twenty ten and and things could have gone very differently there for them. Uh exit at the quarter final stage. But has any really missed out?
Nah, I feel I agree with Stephen there. I feel none has missed out that you think they should have won the World Cup or anything to to that. I think at this moment in time the mindset of African football has just been they've done well but just not quite good enough. You know, and Morocco's probably changed the landscape.
in thinking possibly, you know, you're you're one game away from from winning a tournament now. So I I think it it's a bit open now. Teams are going there, they're going to be free, they're going to attack and hopefully one can surprise us and hopefully even get to a final.
¶ Sunday Oliseh's World Cup Vision
Well Sunday Elise represented Nigeria at their first World Cup finals, played in the United States in nineteen ninety four. They reached the round of sixteen. Does he think Africa can improve on Morocco's semi final place in twenty twenty two?
Possible they can we can build on it. In fact, the the eggshell has been broken now. Everybody knows that you can go you can get that far. I think so. Um but the question I'm asking myself now is that the way the Moroccans played. four years ago it's certain if they play that same way now they won't get that far
Because they played it tactically very, very cagey style and came out countering to win games, you know. But now if you do that now you're gonna struggle. But um for the African nations, I think there's so much
I f I am kind of like attrice because I'm very sad because Nigeria's not going. That's kind of like spoiled a lot of things for me personally. But if you look at it from a general point of view There are so many interesting nations that I have had the p the honor and the pleasure of working on as an expert or as an a commentator, as that I've seen them play, that I'm looking forward to seeing them how they can do on on the on the world stage. But uh I think it should be greatly
Which of the African teams do you think then potentially has the best chance of success Sunday?
Lead there's so many of them. I find Senegal extremely strong. Senegal is solid, really, very, very solid. I find the Moroccans also solid. How they now cope with the change of manager, I don't know how that's gonna affect them.
I find those ones very, very solid. And also I think that of all the nations that have could have really qualified for the major tournament, um, there are some that have worries for, especially those who have who have changing managers, who change managers. I'm really worried for those ones. And one team that I think might surprise people a bit, it might be Cape Verde, because... Just as this shock to the whole Africa. Oh, that's my fine.
Yeah.
You know, the most surprising too.
A and are we getting closer to, you know, having an African team win the World Cup, whether it's at this edition or, you know, in the next one or two, d do you think We will see an African team win a World Cup soon.
No Lee, there's if there's something I want to see before God takes me to heaven or hell, I don't know which one he's sending me to. Um it would be too it would be great to see an African nation win this because this a this is a competition, a tournament that we all love passionately in Africa. And whoever wins that, whoa, I wish them good luck.'Cause they're gonna enjoy it a lot.
That's the former Nigeria captain Sunday Elise. The former Democratic Republic of Congo captain Gabriel Zakwani. The former Sierra Leone captain and Premier League defender Stephen Kolker are with us. As we discuss when will an African nation win the World Cup? What do people
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¶ Morocco and Senegal's Group Prospects
Now in order of the FIFA World Rankings at this tournament we have Morocco ranked eighth, Senegal fourteen, then Algeria, Egypt, Ivory Coast, Tunisia. The DRC, South Africa, Kap Verd, and Ghana. So which African nations do you think has the best chance of going deep into this tournament? Let's look through them then.
Starting with the finalists from the recent Africa Cup of Nations, I think it's easier to say the finalists because we're not exactly sure who the winners were. Senegal beat the host Morocco in the final back in January. Chaotic end to the game, Senegal's players walking off.
After their opponents were awarded that stoppage time penalty with a match goal as they scored a winner an extra time, but the Confederation of African Football overturned that result and awarded Morocco the three nil victory, Senegal have appealed to the Court of Arbitration for Sport. So I mean actually on that, Gabby, isn't that a bit of a cloud hanging over these two teams? I mean let's see if they meet at any stage, but you know, could that have an impact at all on the World Cup?
Nah, I d I don't think so. I think I think with no I d I don't know anyone who's taken it very seriously that Morocco money. I think I think everyone does look at Senegal. Is that was Senegal's trophy? Um I think the court of arbitrage and I it'll be interesting to see what the outcome is.
But I don't think I think Senegal, one thing about them, they're very efficient, they're very professional when it comes to getting the business done on the pitch. And I don't think that will be something that that will overcloud or change in the way they're prepared for this sort of thing.
And and Morocco, they're in group C. Uh so they face Brazil. They've got a tough draw. That is their first game at the MetLife Stadium in New Jersey. Then Haiti and Scotland, Stephen. So They've got to show, haven't they, that twenty twenty two wasn't just a one off and as Sunday Lise was saying, they're under a new coach, Mohammed Uhabe, so uh lots to prove.
For sure. I think, you know, where where Morocco are concerned it'll be a battle between them and Scotland for the second place. I expect Brazil to top the group, Haiti unfortunately to finish on the bottom, and I believe it'll be between
Scotland and Morocco for that second place. So you say they've got a tough group, but I'm looking at the groups here. W what group would they want to fall in? You know, if you look at some of the teams that are in there and some of the groups. I would say that's a not a favourable group, but it's it's certainly a a group where mae'n llawer o'r hynny i'w llawer o'r hynny i'w llawer o'r hynny i'w llawer o'r hynny.
Yes, perhaps once they've got beyond the first game and it's not right off that first game, it may be the best time to to play Brazil first up, mind it. But I suppose beyond that, yes, you do think there's a there's the opportunity there to get out the group you'd expect them to.
I think that Scotland, although they're a great nation, they've done wonderful things under Steve Clark. I do think that they often fall short when it comes to the to the big tournaments. This could be their year, but I expect Morocco to stand in their way. The first game against Brazil.
I mean look, Brazil haven't been fantastic. You know, that there's been a lot of talk around of course they've got Carlo Ancelotti in there now who's just the the don of all managers. But if we're being honest, Brazil and not to say Brazil that we saw fifteen, twenty years ago. So
It is a a game that is possible, possible to win. But I if if I'm sitting in Morocco's camp, if I'm the c one of the coaches there I'd be going, right, we aim to win it, of course, you aim to win the group, but second place is is very achievable.
And just to make everyone aware, in this enlarged forty eight team World Cup finals, the top two from each of the twelve groups progresses and the eight best third place teams also make it through to a round of thirty-two, so more opportunities. Senegal, Gary were unbeaten in qualifying, made that really strong statement against England becoming the first African side to beat them 3 1 at Wembley last June.
with talent, if we look at the likes of Nicholas Jackson who's been on loan at at Bay Munich from Chelsea, is Mal Assar, you know, creative players there. What is gonna hold them back, if if anything, do you think, in this tournament?
Yeah, I don't think much. I think they they're they're a side that have been building, uh they're very mature side as well.
have leaders in the team. Don't rarely get anything wrong. Always have to do exactly what they have to do to to get through. You know, I mean we had them in our group um for for qualifying for for the World Cup and we barely made dropped any points but they just got the w the extra point to make sure that they got the result and got through where we had to go through the whole playoff system and
the long way round to the World Cup, but it was a nearly perfect World Cup uh qualified performance by us, but they still managed to do just a little bit more and they they just seem to always have a result for whatever you've got, they can always do a little bit more. And I I expect them to do really well. I think they they they've shown that they they are a site who's developing and now they are a site to really be capable of of performing really well.
We'll look at their group after we've heard from the Senegal and Everton forward. Here is Ilman and Jai.
Since I was young, I've always wanted to represent Senegal and then obviously when I was yeah, ten, eleven, twelve, I went to Senegal for a year for uh to see my family, you know, to see the culture and everything in Senegal. And from then on like it was like right, that makes my decision easier and
Yeah, I've never changed it or the back or anything like that. It's always been tenable. I recommend, you know, if you're African, go and represent your African country. It's the best thing you ever do. We never fear anyone. Um Υπότιτλοι AUTHORWAVE And we win games, so yeah, I don't f I don't think it matters who we're playing against, um it just matters if you know, if we turn up on the day or not. And then obviously like
We we don't go to a competition if it's not to win it, you know. I wouldn't even bother packing my suitcase and traveling to the World Cup if it's not to win it. I don't play these tournaments to just to just to just be a a tourist or, you know, I just played w we we played these this tournaments to win it. And yeah, what Morocco did in the last World Cup should give all these African teams an inspiration and you know a
Like oh they did it like Wacon Louis but they did a brilliant brilliant competition that year. And yeah, we need to we need to go into the tournament to to be very confident and and try and, you know, focus on ourselves and like I said Go as far as we can in in in the World Cup and maybe maybe win it.
¶ North and West African Teams Analyzed
That is Ilamanchai of Senegal, certainly aiming for a World Cup win, and talking about his reasons for choosing to represent them. Born in France, in fact, France's influence on this World Cup is staggering. Nearly a hundred players born in France. are going to feature in the finals, seventy-five of them representing other nations. That means around eight percent of every player at the tournament
was born in France. But Illemann and Jait representing Senegal, they are, I think Stephen, in a tough group then. Formidable sides in France and Norway. Potentially tricky game against Iraq. And it starts with a repeat of that shot two thousand and two opener against the French. Then they're gonna have to stop the goal machine Erling Haaland. So lots of work for them.
Yeah, this is this is a tough group. I would say that this is Probably tougher than uh Morocco's group to to face France. You'd expect France in this group to top it. As you mentioned there, Norway, you've got Erling Haaland, you've got Martin Odegaard off the back of winning the Premier League there. They're a strong nation. Of course, if
Senegal able to keep Erling and Haaland quiet, then there's a big possibility that they'll be able to get get the points from that game. But it's certainly a tough group. Senegal I I believe are the strongest African nation in the tournament, but they've got the toughest job of of getting out of the group. Thankfully, as you mentioned, they're the third best place.
I think will give them a little bit of comfort knowing that okay, if we aren't able to to finish first or second, the third place should certainly be there.
Yeah. And if they are to win the World Cup though, um I haven't plotted it all the way through, Gabby. There's a lot to get through. Uh there's a lot of detail in the in the draw. But it would obviously potentially mean a harder match in the round of thirty two. So if we're talking about World Cup winners, does Senegal have to be in the in the top two? Do they have to be looking to top the group even?
Yeah, I think I think that's the aim. You know, you have to I I can't see Senegal going into this group and hoping to scrape through the group. I think they they've shown that they can compete with the best and they will go in there with no fear. Um I think they they're capable.
off top in the group also. You know, they've caused upsets in the past, but now they've shown they can compete with with the top nations. They have top players. They've been building for a few years now. I would say yes, they are the probably the strongest in terms of squad.
in African football at this moment in time and they're going in there to be honest to to to win. So for me, I think they would have to come in the top two to give themselves a chance to go as deep into the tournament as possible.
So Morocco and Senegal then, perhaps Africa's best hopes, but let's continue down the FIFA rankings where Algeria are in Group J, just to say all the African nations are in different groups, which is how the draw was made. So Algeria up against the reigning champions, Argentina, also Austria and Jordan.
Capable of making it difficult. I think it's safe to say, Stephen, for for any opponent there, technical attackers, we mentioned Riyadh Mahes continuing to bring that creativity in his experience.
Yeah, for sure. I'd be there. the leader, he's you know, the biggest name on on the team sheet there. When you think of Algeria, Moarez certainly comes to mind. I think it's another, you know, tough group. Oh you know, we I'm say I could say that about every single group, right? It's a World Cup. You you don't get to the World Cup and then face
easy teams. The idea is that you you've you're facing the best teams in the world. So, you know, Algeria are gonna have to compete against Austria for that second place. Jordan are are are no mugs, that will certainly be a tough game as well. So It it is another really tough one. Can they beat the reigning champions? I think that might be a step too far. But of course, as I said, they've got a second place to aim for and the third place if if that fails.
And do Egypt fall into the same category, Gabby? They're in Group G with Belgium, Iran and New Zealand in the sense that it's now or never really for Egypt and and Mohammed Salah, isn't it? Can they get beyond the group stage for the first time?
Yeah, I'm looking at that and I think they can. I think it is sort of now or never, you know, because it's probably Miami Salah's last World Cup. And for me I think he will be looking to sort of go out on a high as well. At the world stage he seems to always perform when it when it there's something on the line. Um and I'm looking at that group and I I think they will get through that group, you know, they usually
Are we very hyped up before tournaments and then they s sort of failed to deliver. Uh, but I think this time I think he's he's got a big point to prove. It didn't quite. have the season he he wanted to have at Liverpool and I feel that this is him to show the world that he's still got what it takes. And I think looking at the group they certainly have the ammunition to go through.
We'll get your predictions. Uh just to warn both of you that is to come. Ivory Coast in Group E. They have Germany, Ecuador and Curaçao, the smallest nation to ever qualify for a World Cup. Now, it feels quite a balanced group. It feels like one where Ivory Coast even could make progress here. They've got the physicality, they've got the technical qualities though, players like Ahmed Diallo could really be a spark for them. What do you think they can achieve?
Yeah, I I think Ivory Coast are such a a strong nation and for once they're not the ones with the pressure on them. You know, when it comes to African, they're off they're often deemed as one of the favourites and there's a lot of pressure piled on their shoulders. But I feel like they're quietly a dark horse, which seems strange to say for a country of Ivory Coast is c size and capacity. But
It does feel that way. The lot of talk is around Senegal, a lot of talk is on Morocco. I think Ivory Coast could surprise a few. And look at the group, again, you you'd probably have Germany down there as favourites.
Curuso, I've watched quite a bit of their games as one of our players in in in Turkey is is actually representing them, so I've seen a little bit of them. I would expect Ivory Coast to beat them. And then of course it it's the battle then between them and Ecuador to see if they can get out of the group. But uh I'm I'm quietly
Quietly said.
Thinking that Ivory Coast will be the ones that that do make it out of the group and I'll I'll give my prediction in a little bit.
Yeah, let's keep that back just for now. What about Tunisia though, Gabby, in Group F with the Netherlands, Japan and Sweden? Now they didn't exactly excel at the last Africa Cup of Nations earlier this year, so they've changed their coat. Sabri Lamushi has come in. Could they get through though? I mean we are talking about the best third place teams as well having an opportunity. So what do you think about Tunisia?
Yeah, I think it's a it's an uphill battle I think for them. Um I think they they they'll do well to to get out of it. I think out of the countries I'm seeing that we've listed so far, they're probably the one I least expect to
to do as well as p they possibly could because I'm just not sure if they gelled in time and the the everything, the cohesion, they haven't done well of late. Um so it would just be really interesting to see how they've, you know, sort of come together as a team and if the coaches
method
have come out to the team. So I think they're they're the ones who will surprise me if they get out of
¶ Other African Nations' Tournament Outlook
Six teams down, four to go, including Ghana, and we're gonna hear from the Ghana legend, Michael Essie now. He played in the two thousand and six and twenty fourteen World Cups for his nation, the former Chelsea midfielder in the English Premier League. And he's confident that this team can make progress.
I mean we are expecting them to to go past the group uh group stage, but I mean it's gonna be a very difficult one. Uh they are in a very difficult group. I think they can do it. They should take a game by game and uh make sure they can uh they can win them in uh progress. They've assembled uh some great great players there and uh so of course hopefully they can take the I had disappointment from the last World Cup to kind of motivate them.
to go go past the the group stage. So yeah, that's what we are hoping for. And uh hopefully they can deliver.
Would you agree that Antoine Semenyo is gonna be the the player that stands out for for Ghana? Is is he the one people back home are putting their their hopes on after the incredible season he's had?
Uh yeah, I believe so'cause uh as you said he's had a fantastic uh season, so yeah, he's gonna be They want everyone who we kind of look up to to push the team uh carry the team with him and uh and push the team forward. Of course we've lost Kudus. who is one of our most uh uh important players but I think with the help w from the others they can uh they can still do do a good job.
That's Garner's Michael Essen with the BBC's Ian Williams. So Garner then are in group L. We're putting this down as a tough one, I think. England and Croatia and also Panama. And Gabby, as Michael was saying there, whether without Mohamed Kurus, who is gonna be a big loss uh for Ghana.
A lot will depend on the firepower of Manchester City's uh Antoine Semeno and as we've already mentioned, led by a very experienced coach, former Portugal and Iran, Carlos Querosh, but again someone who's come in just on the eve of the tournament.
Yeah, again, I'm not sure how much impact that will have, but just being such a big name will probably give the players a boost. But losing a player like Kudus, especially when it's when it's Garner, they they really depend on him. You know, anything good that happens going forward in previous matches, it's been all through Kudos. So I think but, you know, it's not a bad player to to to now depend on with Anton Semena with the season he's had.
you know, from Bourne Murphy carried on at Manchester City, carried on the same level of output. So I think it's it they they're going in to be o to be honest, they're going in uh probably fans not expecting the best because they haven't been in the best form. But I think that freedom and that lack of pressure could be a way to to get the best out of of Ghana.
Can it take a little time to adjust, Stephen, when you have chosen to represent your nation? Antoine Semeno has chosen that with with Ghana, but is someone who has grown up in England, I've been part of of football teams here in England. Can it take a bit of adjustment when you now on the international stage?
I think so. I I feel that just adapting to more things off the pitch than on the pitch, you know, just the the differences there. And there are quite a lot as we mentioned earlier when it I mean Ghana is a is a a big nation with a lot of money behind it and expect them to be
travelling, you know, to a to a good standard, I expect to be good hotels and the preparation to be better. But it still will of course be a difference certainly from from Man City heading to Ghana. But he's a player that just takes everything at his strike.
You know, I thought when he went to to Man City in January, could it take him a little bit of time to adapt there? No it didn't. He hit the ground running and I expect him to do the same with Ghana. I just think there's a lot of weight on his shoulders. I think if I'm looking at
Ghana and I'm just looking at recent form. I I I I do struggle to think that Ghana will get out of the group. But, you know, here's the hope that they're the my West African brothers is I'm hoping that that Samenyo and and the others can can deliver.
And what about Capverde then in Group H uh with Spain, Uruguay and Saudi Arabia? Stephen, are you going for a surprise or two? They've got absolutely nothing to lose, have they, after qualifying for the World Cup for the first time?
I think that's a great place to be. Uh absolutely nothing to lose, no pressure on you. You just go there, enjoy it, give everything that you've got, which I'm absolutely sure they will. They've given everything they've got to get to this stage. They're not gonna rest up now. I think I think personally that's a team there that can get out of the group.
Of course it would be tough, especially playing against Spain. It's gonna be a real, real test for them, but an unbelievable experience. And I think that actually out of the the s let's say the slightly smaller nations I would say they're the team for me that will go on um and a and achieve something is World Cup.
And where you play your matches can make a b a big difference as well, with the heat and the conditions that teams will experience, Gabi. Now, the Democratic Republic of Congo then in Group K Portugal first up in Houston, then Colombia at altitude in Zapapan in Mexico, Uzbekistan who are making their debut at the World Cup finals in Atlanta. What do you see as the big challenges there then?
I think in terms of when when it's the weather i th there's there's no there's no challenge there. I think a lot of the Congolese players are used to to the heat, especially playing in in Congo is is absolutely unbelievable when you play at the Stade de Marty or French uh sort of our our state our stadium and it it's just the heat there can can literally take you out on your feet but that you just perform there because of the crowd.
But um I'm I'm looking at that. I I think it's it's very doable as as we mentioned the the the group top three can go through. But I think you look at Portugal, a lot of people write us off for that game. But as I said, I don't I don't think we're in there to just make up the numbers. We just had a friendly a couple of days ago against Denmark and to me on chances we should have won the game, so it shows how far we've come. There's there's no fear.
um in in the Congo team. And I think that that sort of element of surprise could be what what undoes teams like Portugal against the DRC.
And and just on the conditions though, whilst it it may help you, that is could be an advantage, you know, the athleticism, the pace, the physicality that you have in in your side could disrupt those those teams that you're facing. Look for more possession.
Yeah, exactly. It can. And the the also the route that we've taken to to get to the tournament, I mean we we we have to play the playoff games in these conditions. So we we've we've had sort of a rehearsal of it against Jamaica um to get through to the World Cup in these conditions as well. We had a friendly just before that again in these conditions.
We're prepared for this. You know, it's sort of not not too s too d dissimilar from what's in Africa already and we've had the long route of the of the playoffs to get used to this as well. So I I think our players are ready in terms of condition. It's just that if we can adapt to the football and uh to to the quality of a sad lapoujo.
And for South Africa, Stephen, your tips again after the opening game against Mexico, now with South Korea and Czechia to come, back in the World Cup for the first time since they hosted in in twenty ten.
Yeah, I've got I've got to stick with them. I'm but I'll be trying to engraved before they actually put it off. But no, I'd stick with them. I I still think they're they're one of, if not the best football inside that I faced in in african football and i think that it's just about time that they they deliver they they play good football they've got a lot i think a big advantage for south africa is a lot of their players
play at home in their country. They used to playing with each other. They got that familiarity um amongst their squad. I think that South Africa for me will get out of the group. I'm gonna put my neck on the line and say that. But of course you go against South Korea who
are always really well organized. It work extremely hard. I played them back in the day in the Olympics, in the twenty twelve Olympics and just such a really well organized site. South Africa can have to be prepared for that. Mexico, again, who'd expect to maybe top the group. And then Chechia, who also tough competition. So they're in a really tough group, South Africa, but I'm expecting them to finally show what they're what they're capable of.
¶ Predictions: When Will Africa Win?
This is the moment then, both of you. We've got ten African nations. First of all, how many of these ten are getting out of the group? Uh Gabby, I know you're gonna at least say one of them for the the DRC. How many do you think though?
I I think out of the ten I'm I'm I'm going for half of them. You know, I'm going for five. I think I think I can see the DRC getting through and I don't think I'd I'm allowed to else but I genuinely do believe DRC will get through I think Senegal Moral.
Okay.
uh will certainly get through. And I think you know what, Cape Verde I think I think are the the dark horse because not many size expect I think that that's element of surprise will be um telling and I'm just undecided about Ghana and Ivory Coast, but I will say Ivory Coast again.
How many are you going for, Stephen, out of the ten to get through the group stage?
I was gonna say six, but I don't want to upset Gabby, so I'll go with seven. But the RC in there. Um I think the three that are gonna struggle for me are Tunisia. I think they will struggle this one. I do believe that Uh Ghana will struggle and I think that Algeria will struggle. So out of the the ten teams I'm gonna say those three may struggle the most.
And how far do you think an African team can go at this World Cup, Stephen? What what are we looking at? Can it match a semifinal? Can it go even further?
Would love for it to happen. I really, really would. And as I've mentioned a couple of times, I do believe if if if there is going to be a team to do it it will be Senegal. I just think it might be a a bit too much to ask when I'm looking at some of the teams. I think once I have now this this in front of me and I'm looking at the teams, I'm looking at I'm saying
Can you know Senegal go and beat the likes of Argentina, which you're gonna have to beat at some point if you're looking to win the World Cup? Are they gonna go and beat Portugal, etcetera? I I don't know, I would say a semi final would be um would be my opinion, but I I would love to be wrong and and for one of them to go not just to the final but to go and win it.
Well, Spain, Argentina, France, England are the seeded team to reach a semi final, so someone has got to beat one of them along the way. Could be an African nation, Gabby, do you think? What's possible?
Yeah, I think I think I'd go again with Senegal where I just can't see past them when it comes to So the African countries and you know, they've proven they can beat England already, you know, so they've they've got that sort of firepower and that balance. in uh quality to to get as far as they can. But it's just in terms of now it's the World Cup. It's a totally different thing. It's the pressure of it as well to perform.
First option has to be to get through the group and then anything can happen in the one-off games, you know. So I I I do see Senegal Morocco being the obvious choices to get as far as possible. And a semi would be great and then anything can happen.
And just finally then, we asked the question, When will an African nation win the World Cup? If not this time? When, Stephen?
It's coming. I truly believe it's coming. I think, you know, the last forty five minutes of conversation reflects that. I think we've we're seeing growth. We're seeing the infrastructure building and building and building. We're seeing talented players now coming and choosing to play for the African nations. Semeno being a great example of that. I think if it's not this year, I do think within the next two World Cups we will see an African Asian lifting.
Cảm ơn.
Yeah, I I go along with that. I would have said give give another two World Cups and then s start catching up and bridging the gap, um, in terms of just facilities and everything that goes with it. I will say that this this will open up a lot more. I think we saw Morocco the last time. Now I think there'll be two or three involved in in getting as far as possible. And then you give it a couple more World Cups. I think once the infrastructure catches up, there can be an African team to win it.
We will see. Could it happen this time around in New Jersey for the final of the World Cup twenty twenty six? Stephen Kolker, Gabriel Zakwani, thank you both very much.
Thank you. Absolutely.
And that's all from More Than the Score for today. Thanks to Gabriel Zakwani and Stephen Kolker for joining us. If you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to follow and subscribe to More Than the Score. We also love hearing your thoughts on the stories we cover. You can email more than the score at bbc.co.uk or visit bbcworldservice.com forward slash more than the score to find out how to contact us via WhatsApp. But until next time, from me Lee James, it's goodbye for now.
Hello, it's Valerie Saunderson from the Global News Podcast again. I hope you enjoyed this bonus episode. To hear more stories from the World Cup and beyond, search for More Than the Score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.
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