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Etienne Nichols: Hey everyone, my name is Etienne Nichols. I'm here at LSI Dana Point, California with Ed Muzzio. He's the author of Iterate and I've been wanting to talk to him since last year when we met.
But yeah, let's. Why don't you tell us a little bit about what you do and tell us a little bit about the book.
Ed Muzio: Yeah, so I do. I always say I know two things. I know what a company has to do so that when it gets bigger, it goes faster instead of slower. And I know how to get them to do it.
Okay, so the book is what they have to do. It's based on 70 years of research and experience and it's a very simple set of behaviors that basically amount to when your management leadership get together.
What they will normally do in North American type management, which is around the world at this point is they will get together, they will look at a plan they made some time ago and they will talk about, about the status, how's it going, and then they'll leave the meeting and they'll run around and try to do a bunch of work so next time they can come back and say again,
it's still going well. And every meeting is mostly nine minute reports of how well it's going. What we know the best performing companies do is they get together and they look far in the future and they say, we're trying to go here in the future.
And right now, hey boss, my piece is taking us over here. I suggest we do this thing today, take this action today to bring those two back into alignment. And so you get more decisions per cycle, more actions per cycle and the whole company just gnaws its way to its goal.
Iterate. That's why it's called Iterate. And that's, that's what they have to do.
Etienne Nichols: You have a video, you have one of the chapters of your book or one of the sub chapters, I guess is called the Story of Alice where you talk about the different management style or I guess you exemplify this, right, How Max, the manager, he has his overall plan or the three points that he's trying to accomplish in these three different managers or maybe departments.
I don't know exact. You maybe elaborate. They have their piece of that that they're trying to accomplish, but all of it points back up to his plan. And so can you elaborate on how that works in real life versus maybe what, what you're saying at the beginning in the contrast where we have one plan,
we're all sort of trying to work on it, but maybe it's not as defined as what, what.
Ed Muzio: Right, right. So there's a bunch of stuff you can unpack from that. And, and that, by the way, that video is a really good one. That's. I think that's the best video.
If you want to know what the iterate book is like, don't read the book. I don't, I didn't say that. Read the book. But in addition to, or before he.
Etienne Nichols: Gives these away for free at the conference.
Ed Muzio: At the conference.
Etienne Nichols: Come into the conference.
Ed Muzio: Honestly, call me, I'll give you one. Really, it's okay, but go ahead.
Etienne Nichols: Yeah, yeah.
Ed Muzio: So. So that video is on iteratenow.com you scroll down and look for see it in action. And what I love about that video is there's not a word of terminology in it.
It just talks about here's a person running a group, here's someone that works for that person and they're doing things. And what you see in that is all the different pieces.
So you see, like you said, they, everyone on the group is working toward the higher level goal, not their own goal. So you know, typical management, you know, you and I are peers.
We have a boss. Our boss gave you goals, me goals, and basically tells us collaborate while you work on your own stuff. But that's going to create silos in iterative management.
Your boss says no, you and I, Ed, Tien, Ed, you guys, you're working on my thing together. You have your part, you have your part. And so we're looking up.
So that's part of it. Another part of it is when we see an issue coming in the future, like I said, we make a decision and we take an action based on that higher level goal.
So I may come along and say I think I want some of his resources. And that's not weird or offensive to you. That's just a thing we know that we do because we're each carrying a piece of the bigger hole.
So actually if you thought I was behind, you'd push resources to me because you and I succeed or Fail together. Right. And that's different than, you know, we're going to bonus you on your goals and bonus beyond my goals.
And then we tell us two to work together. But you and I both know, like work together is secondary. Right? So that's a big part of what we're doing is we're saying work together, decide together and look forward so that you're taking actions for the higher level.
And that's the higher level, whatever level you're at. If it's a CEO staff, fine. If it's one level down, two levels down, we're always working to the higher level of that team.
Etienne Nichols: If you were to look at this from a, if you were to tell me about this and maybe, maybe there's some things my team doesn't do that line up with this.
When you've worked with teams before, how, how would you say, what are the obstacles that prevent somebody from working like this? Why would you not want to do this? I mean, it seems like what are the objections and how do you meet those?
Ed Muzio: Well, that kind of gets into the second thing I know, which is how to get teams to do it. Right? So, so you read the book and now you know what?
And it would not be weird for someone to read the book and go, we want to do this and then give it to their team. And they all go, yeah, we're going to do it.
And then even take a one day class and they'll be like, we didn't do it. And so, so there's the part that I know about how is, is what my consulting practice is, okay?
And the way I make it happen, I mean I those things and those can be helpful, but the real way I make it happen is I'll come in and work with the leadership team in two levels all at once.
So it takes about a quarter and I'm with all three levels for a couple days, like a big touch point, then some light support, then another couple days. And what we're doing in those bigger sessions is we are running the company on this way of doing it.
So they always walk in the door going, I can't believe we're taking two days off of work. And I go, you're not. And then when they leave, I go, did you get more or less or the same done than you would have if you had been at work today?
These days? And they always say we got more done because we're actually solving the issues. And so the answer to your question is, one of the big objections is, you know, when I say to you, people should bring issues.
You know, if you go, we're going to go home and do this, like, who wants to be the first person in a culture of saying everything's fine to bring an issue?
The answer is nobody wants to be that person. Right? So if we don't all do it together for a minute, you know, and then see it work and realize, oh, we did this and oh, it worked, and oh, our boss's boss is asking for it, like, all of that happens in two days.
And then all of a sudden it's like, okay, let's just keep going. And so it kind of solves a lot of those things. And that's, I think, why I get to have a job.
Because a lot of people have classes and books and keynot and I have all that too, but. But I can throw a switch and turn it on in a quarter.
And that's a thing that makes me sound a little crazy maybe, but it really does. I mean, I have years of history. There's. It's. We do it and it works.
Etienne Nichols: That's really interesting. You know, it makes me think if we go outside medtech or medical device industry,
I'm thinking about just.
Let's use a completely different analogy and maybe have different analogies that work really well. But I'm thinking about musicians, for example, or a band. You know, you have a lead singer, you have a drummer, you have all these things.
But when you get enough people together, it turns out you need a conductor. And it sounds like maybe that's the role. You're. Maybe you're not actually, you're not actually playing an instrument.
You're just in there saying, hey, you're actually not in tune with these people or the timing's off or different. Is that accurate?
Ed Muzio: Well, I think that's good. It's funny you say that because one of the, One of the only two classes I have is called the dress rehearsal, and it's actually, it's a matrix cross functional activity and the story as a conductor and a symphony.
So. So it's funny you mentioned that, but I like the metaphor. But yeah, you. What you end up having is once you get in this mode of working, so. So we'll take the CEO for examp.
It could be a manager or two levels down. But now that we've got it set up to where, okay, the people in the team, you know, our job as peers is to bring the biggest issue we have with that future variance.
Right? And then our job in the team is to sort it out, make the Best decision we can based on where we're trying to go together. The higher level goal.
Then what is the job of the person leading that meeting? Well, whether it's the CEO or next level down, that person's job becomes to run the best, most effective session of raising and solving problems.
So they pick the most important problems. You know, if I come to, if I go to the CEO one on one and I go, hey, I want these resources from Etienne because I need.
He goes, I'll help you tee that up in the meeting. But that's a group decision, not an individual one. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna give him, you know, give you his resources one on one.
By the way, this happens sometimes, right? The boss goes, okay, here's a little bit. And then you run to him next time. And, and that poor CEO now has the job forever of, you know, quarreling children.
I want it, I want it. Right? So you go, no, no. Goes in front of the group. We do it in front of the group. But there's a piece of work to say, well, let me show you, Ed, how to tee this up for the group.
You know, let's make sure you bring the right data. Make sure your, your data is looking forward. We haven't talked much about that either. But we need, we need, if we have data, we don't want a graph that shows everything Ed did up till today and the plan into the future,
because I can't change anything about that.
Etienne Nichols: Let's talk about that at each department. I mean, like you said, I'm going to bring forth what I've done maybe last week, last quarter, and all the things that we accomplished.
But what do you mean when looking forward.
Ed Muzio: This is what makes people like have a hard time with this, the front end, right? So if you bring me a nine minute story about everything you've done up till today and how it's on plan, there is zero actionable content in there.
History has happened right now. Maybe you could say we learned something for the future. That's fine. I'm not saying don't ever talk about it, but there is nothing actionable. So what we require in both the issue raising and if there's any graphs, what the graphs look like is it's fine if you have those.
Here's what we did today and here's the plan, and here's the plan going into the future. But we need you to have a second line on the graph, so to speak.
And it can look very different than a line, but the graph needs to show not only what the plan or resource or what the expectation was, but also sitting here today at the end, what do you think is going to happen?
And if those two things are different in the future, that's the conversation. And if those two things are not different in the future, then there's no conversation. So I don't need nine minutes from you on all the things that are on track.
I need maybe one minute from you going, look, here's these seven graphs. Everything's mostly on track. But hey, there's this one thing we're going to talk about shortly because this thing, if we don't deal with it today, is going to pull us off track three, six, nine months from now.
And that's where the power is in the group.
Etienne Nichols: And let me just give maybe an example that I'm using and you can kind of tweak it and tell me where I'm right, Right or wrong here. Let's say a medical device company is going to try to get 510k approval and they, and, and they're saying, okay, we have, we have our milestone.
We, we have reached the point where we need to reach.
And then something like FDA cuts have occurred and we haven't said anything about that. But I'm talking to the CEO and I say, okay, you know, we're on track to submit our 510k.
In my mind, I'm thinking they're probably not going to review it for a long time however, because maybe these things, and this is pure speculation, I'm not telling that part of the timeline.
That's, that's going to be a variance that could potentially be a problem next week when we actually find out that it is truly a problem or has already happened.
Ed Muzio: Right? And typical management, you're actually doing it right. You say everything up till now is on track and then the CEO go, are there any concerns? And maybe you'll talk about it in general way, right?
You'll have a verbal thing. Well, there's this uncertainty kind of, but we've got it figured out, we've got it right. But in this model, you know, you would say, well, as best I can tell, it's going to add three weeks.
Like that's my best guess. I could be wrong. The world is uncertain. We all appreciate this is a forecast, right? But I'm saying right now I think we're seeing a three week push and Medtech is a very cross functional role, which is why my stuff makes sense here.
Because that three week push affects manufacturing. It might affect R&D, it probably has implications into quality, right? All these different places are impacted. And so by you coming into that CEO staff three weeks early and saying, I think this may push, that gives you not only time to have a conversation in that hour about what we do about this,
but it actually gives you time for the CEO or the leader of that meeting to say, okay, Etienne, R and D person, manufacturing person, go off in a week, in the next week, you're come back with a report, spend a week and spend a couple hours together and make an alternate plan.
So now next week, now you're week one into the potential three week slip. Now you've got an alternate plan of what you might do if this happens. You also have one more week of information to say, oh, actually it's going to be a five week slip or no, it's a two week slip.
Right. So raising the issue early gives you the gift of time to start to plan around it. Because you can't proactively plan for every problem you might encounter, but you sure can plan for the most likely ones that are coming up.
And the difference between having that three week planning period versus you coming to staff three weeks from now and going, well, it slipped. Now what? Right? That's, that's the difference between typical management and iterative management.
Etienne Nichols: Now I know that makes, that makes total sense and I'm with you on that. If I were a company out there, I might think, okay, there's a couple options, obviously I could utilize you and you could come in, be the conductor of the symphony for a couple days and figure,
help us figure this out. I've got two questions. What if I'm not able to do that? How can a company get started? I know that's kind of difficult because, well, I can't guarantee it persists.
You know, the effects persist. But what do you recommend for companies who are. Yeah, yeah.
Ed Muzio: If you're, if you're. So first of all, I don't, I'm not the conductor. It's still, the people running it. They still run. I just nudge them. So just because I don't, I don't run it for the CEO.
I don't know what's going on. I mean, in a very general way I do, but, but that makes sense. But yeah, so, so you know that, that bigger sort of the, what I call the accelerator makes sense if you're at least 25 to 50 people in the leadership team,
you know, at least 20. And if you need to make a very fast change and if you really understand that, hey, this is going to change kind of the trajectory of how we do things and be scalable for us.
But if you're like, let's say you're a company of six people right now, right? Or 10 people, get the book and read it and start to work that way. And if you work that way, like, you could never meet me and work this way.
This is, I didn't make this up. This is like 70 years of empirical research summarized. So I can tell you, like, if you work this way, you will be in the top 15% or so performers, you will run circles around your competitors, you will be faster and more predictable delivering results to investors or the board or,
you know, whoever wants your results, your customers. So you can start anywhere. And then, you know, I do have classes and things that if you say we just want to spend a day talking about it, we think we mostly do this because again, I didn't invent this.
A lot of companies are doing pieces of this. And what I find is if they're doing a lot of it, we do a half day or a one day training and they go, oh, that's the piece we need.
And they go do it. And it's.
Etienne Nichols: What's the piece of this that you think is the least utilized?
Ed Muzio: I think it depends on culture. I've done this in different places around the world and I think I'll give you a couple of examples. So one of the pieces is we talked about this.
We succeed or fail together, right? So you can't get your goals if I don't get mine. Yeah, us, North America, we don't like that. We want to be cowboys. I want to get my stuff.
I don't have to check with my peer on what I'm doing. Right? So you go to Asia and they're like, yeah, of course we see it fail together. And then I go, if you have an issue and a conflict, you have to raise it and you have to have a difficult conversation about it.
And they go, don't want to do that. Right? And so then I go to Israel and I go, if you have a conflict, you have to raise it. And they go, no problem.
And then I say, and then after you decide as a group, everyone does the decision, even if they disagree with it. And Israel goes, wait, what? So it's sort of, I think every culture has different strengths or different sort of tendencies.
And then I think under that, every company has different strengths and tendencies. So I don't know going in, you know, where the issues will be, but those are the ones I just mentioned are some of the ones where they can trip you up and you can see why if you go the other way,
you fall back into silos and competition. That doesn't really help you.
Etienne Nichols: Yeah. Okay.
One other thing I wanted to ask about is when it comes to building that overarching plan. So going back to the example with the story about Alice, for example, Max, the major, the, the, the top, I guess in the hierarchy has his different key objectives that he's trying to accomplish and then everybody has a piece of that.
It seems like that could potentially be difficult to break apart in a equal way. I mean, when I, when I look at the diagram that's kind of drawn, it's, you know, 33% each, you know, it's a cartoon.
Ed Muzio: Yeah.
Etienne Nichols: But real life doesn't work that way. How does that, how does that work in practical terms? And how do you break down or do you have any recommendations or thoughts around that?
Ed Muzio: Well, I mean, everybody carries their piece of the bigger hole.
Etienne Nichols: Sure.
Ed Muzio: In my cartoon I think, I believe there's three of them and each of them have the same number of director for. It's like no organization in the world looks like that.
Etienne Nichols: Right, right.
Ed Muzio: So, so the, you know, R and D probably has a bigger organization than regulatory. Okay. Right. So they carry a bigger piece. Now that doesn't mean that only R and D has problems.
It might mean over a six month period we focus more on the R and D problem, especially early in the life of the company. But then all of a sudden later on we might start to pitch resources toward regulatory.
Okay. Now we're coming up on, you know, approvals or the pre steps or whatever. Right. So I think that it doesn't have to be equally distributed. The other thing that doesn't happen in that cartoon, that happens in highly matrixed environments like medtech companies is very quickly a fourth thing will turn up.
So you got these three things and three people and then the thing will turn up that cuts across them and that becomes a CEO level goal. And so now we stand up a group which is, hey, you, you and you from over there.
You're going to meet weekly and deal with this thing. So it's like ultimately that picture I draw with the kind of triangles around them is a better representation than an org chart.
You picture the org chart and shows this very one to one, like, yeah, my people bring me their goals. Like that's not how it works in real life. And so, so yeah, it gets very messy.
But the, the reason it works is because the group, every group can stand up and tear down meetings as needed. And so essentially the group as a system stands up and tears down that, tears down the pieces of the system it needs.
As opposed to someone trying to sit with a spreadsheet and figure out it's a matrix. It's these meetings and these meetings and this meeting. Because that just does not work.
Etienne Nichols: It's it, it is a system. I mean, it, it really is. I, I totally get where you come from because if, if I have maybe one person reporting to me, that guy has five people reporting to him.
I know what the overarching goal is. I know what I can accomplish.
Ed Muzio: Right.
Etienne Nichols: And so you talk about raising those concerns and cross culturally, obviously, I like that you mentioned it's going to be dependent on every company, every person,
a total aside. But when you think about culture, yeah, there's this generalized culture things, then there's the company culture, then there's the per. The culture you bring to the table.
Everybody has their own right. All of those things make things a mashup. And I like the examples you use, but when I go back to that bigger piece of the pie, it's now incumbent on me to, to actually raise those issues.
I don't think I can accomplish what I. The part that I am expected to accomplish with my resources. And then you talk about that shifting of resources and allocation and so.
So on that. Yeah.
Ed Muzio: And this is the thing about the way I do it as a system change is it'd be very easy to go, you know, Etienne, you better raise your issues or you're in trouble.
Right. And that's how it's like, everyone's individual, but when you get the system doing it, if you. One of the other videos on iteratenow.com is actually, what does it mean to iterate?
And it talks about the parallel between a person walking to their car across the parking lot and an organization. So it's like the person is a system, the organization is a system.
And if we get the system, like habituated, right? Like if you're walking to the car and you're smoking, that's a habit. Now you can change that habit, but the most effective way is not to go, I shouldn't be smoking, I shouldn't be smoking.
That's not how you change it. Right. You have to change the system. And so once we get it to where it's normalized and not weird for you to raise issues, now you're going to raise issues.
It's not like weird anymore. It's just a thing we do here. And the company culture will overrule what people bring in. It will overrule the local culture if it's clear and strong.
And hey, this is how we work here. If you're here, you work this way and people like it because it's clarity. So it's not even that hard. Versus saying why didn't you tell me sooner?
And the answer is because I'm supposed to hide things. Even though you don't say that. Right, that's. And that's how it works in so many companies.
Etienne Nichols: Yeah, no, that's a, that's a really good call out.
Etienne Nichols: And I.
Etienne Nichols: It's something we don't really like you said, we just don't. We don't face consciously sometimes. So any last piece of advice that you have for companies out there who are maybe let's talk about early stage versus later actually.
Yeah, let's just explore that just very quickly. What would you say some of the early stage companies have issues with versus a more established company? I'm sure they've got similarities, but different.
Ed Muzio: They are different. I think that one of the best pieces of advice I can give to an early stage company is if you're past three people, like, if you've got enough where it's like five or six people and we have to make a decision together, be clear on who the decider is and,
and be very clear about not taking a vote.
Democratic decision making, voting in business meeting context produces irrational results. And the reason is if I come in as the leader and I go, how are you going to vote?
You know, all of the, all of the work around decision making that's been done, you know, for decades in sociology is groups of strangers in university, put them together, they solve a problem, kick them out, right?
Storming, norming, forming all that. Like managers and leaders are not strangers like Etienne and Ed. We have a history, we have a future. And so if we know he's going to vote, go, we vote.
You and I will start trading votes because we like each other, because we don't like each other, because I see a big thing coming up. And so immediately that shifts the focus away from information toward politicking.
And all of a sudden the CEO in this story is no longer making decisions based on the best information. He's making decisions based on what horse trading we did of who wants to vote.
So small size. Best advice, start with we know who the decider is. The decider will listen and learn as much as he or she can about what's going on. And then the decider will say, based on my experience and what you've taught me, this is my best decision.
Here's why. And now we're all going to do this and hold everybody accountable to doing it. And if it doesn't work, we'll change it. But you're not allowed to not do it.
And that can start very small.
Etienne Nichols: Yeah, that's really good advice. I, that's, that's kind of profound. And actually the, the comparison of what happens in academics and the, the studies where they bring in strangers, that's really good to juxtapose that with what happens in companies because the politicking is very real.
I've seen that a lot. Yeah, yeah. What about, okay, so, but what about a commercial company?
I'm sure there's very similar things, but are there other things that maybe it makes sense to focus on?
Ed Muzio: Well, so yeah, so now if we get, let's say we're a big enough size, 30, 30, 50 people, like we've got levels, right. So now we've got a CEO staff where the people coming in are managing other people and maybe even some of those people are managing other people.
So now what do we need to do? Well, now we have to keep doing the decision making like we said. But now we need to add in that. The one thing I can tell you to watch for at that size is just watch what happens in your meeting.
And if you get to meeting to minute, I don't know, 26 of a one hour meeting and you haven't already made a decision and that's not weird,
then probably you're doing more staticing and so just watch for like the seven minute. Here's how it's going. Sometimes that's a slideshow, sometimes that's an improv with the boss kind of pulling teeth.
Sometimes that's, you know, an improv that just runs on and on and on. But, but anything that is basically designed for me to tell everybody what I've been up to all the way up until today, kick that out in favor of some process that says bring your biggest future issue and let's,
and bring me a proposal for what to do about it and let's act on proposed decisions.
Etienne Nichols: I like that.
Ed Muzio: Then that works. 50, you know, 20, 30 on up, once you have levels, that's probably the best thing you can do.
Etienne Nichols: Okay.
Ed Muzio: And then there's data and stuff behind that that's in the book. But that's, that's where to start, I think.
Etienne Nichols: Okay, last piece of advice for any anyone who Might be listening.
Ed Muzio: Last piece of advice for anyone might be listening. Get the book. Get the book. Oh, I'll tell you. I'll tell you what it is. If you get the book or if you watch the videos on iteratenow.com, don't get lost in the language.
Like, I have a thing I call pragmatic dashboards. And you're going to go, we have dashboards. And maybe what you have is what I'm talking about, and maybe it's not, but you have to sort of like, step away from the language and go, what is the thing that we're talking about here?
And are we doing that thing? And if you can, like, look in my book and you can do that and you find, like, oh, this one's different. And work on that.
Like, that'll get you there. If you shut your brain off when you see a word, oh, we have goals. Oh, we have dashboards. Oh, we have decision making, then you will conclude that you're already doing it.
And maybe you are, maybe you're not, but you won't actually know because language is limited. So I had to use words, and my only other choice was to do what they do, like in lean, which is like, you know, Japanese words like muda.
Then you have to carry a book around. Like, that's so. So focus on the behavior, not the language.
Etienne Nichols: Okay. All right. Well, thank you so much, Ed. Really appreciate it and looking forward to getting some feedback on your book. And those of you who've been listening, thank you so much.
We'll see you all next time.
Ed Muzio: Thanks at the end.
Etienne Nichols: It's great.
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