Flowpresso: Unlocking Longevity and Emotional Release Through the Lymphatic System - Episode 265

I'm your host, Dr. Jeffrey Gladden, and I'm here today with Desiree De Spong, spelled D-E, and then the second word is S-P-O-N-G, kinda like 'song' with a P in there, De Spong. Okay, cool. Desiree is coming to us from New Zealand, which I think you're the first guest we've had on the podcast from New Zealand. So, welcome to the Gladden Longevity Podcast. Thank you, Dr. Jeffrey. I feel honored to be the first one. Yeah, great.

So, you know, Desiree has a real interest in health, of course, and maybe you can tell us a little bit about your story. How did you get interested in the lymphatic system in particular? And just so the audience understands, the lymphatic system is this drainage system that runs throughout the body, kind of like the veins run through the body or the arteries run through the body, except it's responsible for draining lymph fluid, which is another fluid.

And we'll talk a lot more about that, and it drains into particular areas in the body. The lymph nodes, as you know, are kind of dotted along the lymphatic system. Probably all of you have felt a lymph node or two get inflamed at one point. But that's what we're going to be talking about today is the lymphatic system or the lymph system. called- So Desiree, tell us a little bit about how you got involved with the lymphatic system. It's not something everybody gravitates to.

Tell us a little bit about that. So, I had a significant life event where I changed my career and went into studying health. So, I started first in Shiatsu. Shiatsu is a technique that uses meridians and pressure points, but you understand the whole philosophy around the Eastern way of managing health.

And in that, we went into learning about structural realignment. So, I wanted to be able to manage people with back pain and shoulder pain, et cetera. Therefore, I went into what's called orthobionomy. Orthobionomy is something that's been adapted by a chiropractor, or an osteopath, sorry. And it's all about certain placements and techniques to release the structural misalignment. And in that, we had a presenter from America and he was teaching about the lymphatics.

And I, in a weekend, became absolutely engrossed in this system that no one seemed to know a lot about, as in, we talk about it managing fluid, right? We talk about reducing lymphedema, but no one talked about it to the degree that Chapman's reflexes in osteopathy talks about. So, that was back in about 2000 and... I think it was three or four.

So, then I started looking around the world to where I could learn and I actually ended up in the United States and I was training under a different set of practitioners there, utilizing some technology at the time that was developed in the US and then I was also training with Australia, a practitioner and teacher in Australia and hands-on. So, I've been in the industry 20 years now, I've been teaching for about 15 and then more recently decided to Sorry?

I was going to say, let's, let's back up a little further. What was it that kind of pushed you into a quest for health? I think this was back in your twenties, wasn't it? Yeah, I was 27 at the time. went through a marriage breakup and I decided that there needed to be more to life. I was, I call it my past life, I was managing IT and finance for the New Zealand Fire Service. So, I was very much big in the corporate world and I- Yeah.

Yep, and so I wanted to just take a different path and that's what led me to end up in the health industry for as long as I have been now. Interesting. So, were you looking at other things besides the health industry as options or was this something like as a kid you thought maybe you'd like to do this or what was the connection there for you? Did you have a health issue yourself or how did that happen? At the time, I didn't have a health issue, I was always called.

I always felt like I was the different child, the one that knew stuff or had a feeling about things or, you know, could put my hands on someone and they could feel a difference.

So, for me, it was kind of a calling rather than just a, it was a logical decision as well, but it was a calling too. Nice. Okay. And how did you get along with banking and IT? Did you like that? Yes, I mean I've got a really good right brain and left brain for some reason. I seem to be able to work with both and it certainly helped us from a company perspective now in the future but it wasn't fulfilling. I think the word would be I'd use. I didn't feel like- No. Yeah, I get that.

Okay. All right. And so, you went through a life change, kind of a marital change, and then decided to make a life change. And so, you found yourself here. And it sounds like one thing kind of led to another, which kind of led you into this fascination with lymphatic system. Correct, it did, definitely.

So, in the, in the, in the teaching that you do now, I'm sure you probably integrate the different modalities that you've learned, but tell us a little bit about how you think about the lymphatic system, how you assess it, address it, what kind of therapies you prescribe for it. Tell us a little bit about that. Certainly. So, from my point of view, it's a whole system. So, I'm sure you know, you as a, you know, past work as a cardiologist you understand it's part of the circulatory system.

So, we can't separate, I don't believe, any organ from each other, we have to consider as a whole. But, for me, the lymphatic system I saw time and time again was playing a pivotal role in people's recovery and well-being. So, we all know about detox and you know this has been a big thing. But we haven't really thought about the drainage pathways.

So, of course, we know how we eliminate, but one of the pivotal roles of the lymphatics is to actually take away all the byproduct from that tissue space. And it's playing an incredible part of your immune response. So, when you start looking at that, you see how it's playing a pivotal role in health.

But with all my training as well, you know, you start to look at the emotional component of lymphatics and if anyone's into the Louise Hayes or the Annette Noon tools or things like that, we know that lymphatics is all about letting go. It's what do you not want to hold on to anymore. It's all about bringing balance into your physical life again.

So, for me, as you work with people from a lymphatic point of view, not only are you getting rid of the junk or the byproduct out of the tissue spaces, and helping the immune system to improve its response. There's also an element of letting go of something that doesn't serve you anymore. And that was my fascination of why I looked at it on a deeper level rather than just as a limb to drain or post-surgical recovery or...

And when you see people clinics that incorporate lymphatic drainage into their therapies, they see an significant change to the outcomes because you're helping the body

shift mode. Yeah, that's really interesting. So, you know, what she's talking about here is, if you do, let's say you sprain your ankle, of course, it swells up. Or if you have an injury or if you have a surgery or if you have an infection, that area swells up because the immune system is basically doing things that are stimulating the healing process. And yet that fluid has to go someplace. And so, yes, it could, it could migrate back into the veins and be carried away.

And some of it does, but a lot of the fluid and the toxins that are released from an injury, a tissue, an infection, a wound, things like that, basically find their way into the lymphatic system and are then carried back towards the heart and then processed. And the lymph nodes are basically collecting things and actually sensing what's coming back and deciding whether or not to mount an immune response to it or not. So, it's actually a very intricate system.

And I haven't really heard about the emotional connection, but in a way it's, it is interesting. It's kind of a release. It's kind of a unidirectional release of, of toxins from the, from the body. And I guess you're kind of equating that now to sort of toxic thoughts or toxic experiences that people carry around with them, because that's kind of what I'm hearing. Correct. Well, you think about it, we've just had that breakthrough, what, 2012, that we have a glymphatics in the brain, you know?

And so, we have our unique glymphatics now that we know that's gotta be pivotal to that brain fog and everything. And we always talked about draining the brain when we were teaching, because we saw it, especially post-chemo and that, when you worked the cervical nodes, or cervical nodes, you call them in the US, you you actually saw a change to the brain function, or how they were thinking and feeling. So, to me, it's all interrelated.

I mean, you know, I've listened to some of your podcasts, you know, we are what we think, we have to create new realities. And so, if we're holding on to anything, that's kind of where I see it sitting either in the fascia, our connective tissue, or in the lymphatics because it's unable to let go. And so, for me, there's a really important component there to not only from a physicality point of view, but also from the emotional. You know, why are you holding?

A lot of weight loss comes from letting go. A lot of weight gain comes from holding on. So, sometimes it's not as clearly as 'I eat too much'. And so, you know, there is hormonal, yes, we can put the physical aspect to it or what we're eating in our environment. But I do think there's an element of if we understand the lymphatics in a deeper way, then we're going to understand its pivotal role in longevity and health.

Yeah, I think that's really interesting. Also, you know, she was talking a little bit about another lymphatic system that's in the brain, specific to the brain, called the glymphatic system, which basically is active at night during slow wave sleep. And interestingly enough, works best when you sleep with your right cheek on the pillow. And that's, that's really important to drain- You know, your brain is the most metabolically active tissue you have.

And so, being able to drain all the waste products out between the neurons and the glial cells and everything else to basically drain that out of your brain becomes really, really important. And, you know, it's interesting also that you're talking about structural changes in the body and emotional things that we hang on to. There was a book written called The Body Keeps A Score that I'm sure you're familiar with.

And it's, it's become clear that what we're carrying emotionally expresses itself in physical ways in our body, whether we're leaning to one side or another, whether we have cramps, maybe when we eat, whether we have sciatic nerve pain, whether we have low back pain, whether we have stories that we tell ourselves about who we are and we're supposed to look like this or we're supposed to feel like this or we're supposed to eat like this. All of these things become interwoven and...

Do you have experience where you're working with a lymph system and people have kind of emotional releases as well, or is it kind of combined therapy between looking at sort of the emotional side of things as well as the physical side? We definitely see emotional release occur when you're doing lymphatic drainage. It's not uncommon at all. I mean, I'm not too sure if you know the technology that I developed, but part of it is compression and heat. And we see it a lot in that.

We see that people feel safe, held, and they let go. And so, there's this somatic experience that you can't even describe to anyone until they've been in it. But part of it is that ability to come out and feel 'I'm safe, I'm ok.' 'I can let go.' 'I feel less anxious.' And we see that even with hands-on therapy, you will see that over and over again, you take them into parasympathetic. It always happens when you do lymphatic drainage. There is a correlation there between those two.

As we know, when we sleep at night, you go into parasympathetic, your lymphatics improves function, just like the brain. So, for me, when we can actually engage the lymphatic system, often people will end up being very emotional or they'll feel like they're lighter. There's a massive lift to the stress that they've held onto for too long. That's interesting.

You know, this parasympathetic nervous system, the audience understands that there's an autonomic nervous system with a parasympathetic nervous system. That's kind of rest, recovery, relaxation, repair. And then there's a sympathetic nervous system, which of course is adrenaline, stress, and, and drives kind of those kinds of responses. And when you're, when you're in that fight or flight,

sympathetic side of the system, it's interesting, you're shutting down your ability to actually release not only the toxins in your interstitial spaces, in other words, the area between your cells, but also it's difficult to let go of emotional baggage when you're in fight or flight, right?

And so, what you're saying is that with these techniques you're doing, you're able to actually transition people away from being in sympathetic nervous system dominant tone into parasympathetic nervous system tone, which actually is increasing their lymphatic drainage. And then, they're also having this emotional release at the same time. That's really quite fascinating. Yeah, so some of our research we've done in our tech we recognize.

So, we worked with New Zealand Police and we did one session a week for 40 minutes over three-week period and we saw a 91% improvement to sleep and up to 62% reduction in stress and 53% in anxiety. So, if you think about that, how does that correlate to the lymphatics? Well, if you're improving lymphatic function, in other words, improving drainage, you're taking the pressure off from an inflammatory point of view, you're having to improve circulation.

But if you're also in that state of going into parasympathetic, you know, you're going to literally do a body reset, you're going to create this new reality for the body to go stop being in fight-flight all the time. Because sometimes we get out of sync, we lose sight of what is a normal, you know, we create a new normal because our stress levels are consistent and constant and we are creating this adaptive behavior.

So, you can see how then by moving the lymphatics, you're literally getting the flow back into your life again and then you're encouraging the body to recover health-wise and longevity and improve the toxicity load and get the body dumping those byproducts. But if you're also engaging parasympathetic, you're engaging that deeper recovery and the body's getting that recognition point of a new normal. Yeah, that's interesting.

I can, I can imagine that a team of people that could basically address some of the psycho-... psychological, maybe the psycho-spiritual side of this, as well as the physiologic. Seems like a team of people could be actually helpful to folks that are kind of going through this process. Is that kind of what you have set up? Is it a team or do, or do you handle most of it yourself or how does that work? So, we have, so our technology is sold throughout the world.

And so, we're a class two medical device. So, it's used by health practitioners. So, it ranges anything from biological dentistry who use it to reduce the anxiety and stress associated to being at a dentist and they find their recovery's faster but they need less anesthetic, those kind of things, right through to

plastic surgeons, for example, so for surgical recovery. And then we have our psychologists, psychiatrists, and then in between that, using it as well, because they find it down regulates. And, you know, you mentioned the body keeps a score. You know, if you read his book, he's very much big about needing that somatic, that touch, that being held, that pressure, the hold.

And the good thing about the technology was that this is something you get in fully clothed and you're left to be in that for 40 minutes. You're monitored, but you are given that space to be held. We go, we're wrapping you up, loving you and hugging you as a very simplistic way of saying we're trying to get your body to go into parasympathetic, so we can improve lymphatic drainage. Because if you're in fight-flight, it's really hard, as you explained earlier, to drain the body.

So, this is a little bit like putting a weighted blanket on a dog or something, right? It kind of calms them down, right? That sense of being held or, so just describe for the audience what this looks like. So, somebody comes in to see you and they're having something they're recovering from or they have a lymphatic issue. And then you basically are wrapping them up. Are you wrapping their legs individually?

You know, there are basically these inflatable pants that people wear for recovery post exercise. Is it something like that or is it people are wrapped up in like a straight jacket or what's, what's it look like? So, the technology is called Flowpresso and what it is is so that from a lymphatic called a Flow as in Flow F L O W, presso, P R E S S O, so 'presso' meaning pressure. And so, it's a combination of compression and heat. So, you talked about those compression pants...

But like that concept, except we individually wrap you, so the session is very individual. So, we have feet, we have legs, we have the torso, we have arms, and we have a back piece as well. So, the idea is I'm wrapping you as the individual, not just stock standard. And we're doing full body rather than, for example, my concern was if you are unwell and I'm putting you in compression on your legs only, I'm pushing fluid up into your pelvic basin. And then what am I doing from there?

Most people are sitting up. It requires the body to pump it up against gravity. And if they're not breathing efficiently and they're not well enough, they can't do that. So, what happens? You stand up and just gravity has an impact. So, we put you in this suit, we adapt all the pressures to a hug, not a blood pressure cuff squeeze. So, every chamber is individualized to you and your response and how you feel. Because if I'm putting too much pressure on, we don't engage parasympathetic.

It's all about that, it's your experience to you as the individual. as like- It sounded like, if I got that right, that you're doing the arms, the torso, the back and the feet, but not necessarily the legs. Is that correct? Or are the legs? No, the legs have them as well. legs as well. Okay. That makes sense to me. Okay. Great. All right. So, you're really, you're really kind of wrapped up and I guess the legs are wrapped individually. Is that correct?

Okay. So, I'm just getting the audience to try to visualize this. So, you're really kind of in this wrap, which is then applying pressure. Is it milking? You know, like, is it like a pressure wave that comes up the leg? There are pressure pants like that also. Yes. Yeah, so it's like a sequential. So, we have to, with lymphatics, you have to create the momentum. So, think of it like a tube of toothpaste. We're squeezing you from the bottom up. Right. That makes sense.

So, now you're kind of, you're kind of milking the tissue, kind of up from the feet up through the legs and then through the torso and the arms back in. So, it's it's kind of like you're sitting there with compression and release. And then, it sounds like there's some warmth that's included with this also, which I suppose is very comforting. It's very comforting to be hugged. It's very comforting to cuddle. Very comforting to have a, you know, a weighted blanket on, things like that.

So, this is probably kind of falling in that category, I'm thinking. Is that right? Yes, and also, coming back to the circulatory system you want the vasodilation, you want to be able to get that blood circulation as well because it's not always a lymphatic problem, it can be a circulatory as well. So, we're trying to move you on all levels. So, when you're putting the heat in, now you're increasing vasodilatation in the tissues, right?

Because when we exercise or we get hot, you know, the arteries and arterioles and capillaries, everything dilates, right? Because you're bringing more blood to the surface to cool yourself. So, if you're doing that now, all of a sudden, you're kind of, I wouldn't say turbocharging, but you're certainly increasing the entire circulatory rate, which is then- contributes to the lymphatic system flowing more briskly also, is what you're saying. Is that correct? Yeah. Okay. Okay. Got it.

Well, that's fascinating. So, do you have, you have clinics around the world? you have dentists that are doing this. So, what are they, what are they, how are they doing that? They're putting things around people's legs and feet in the dental chair or what are they doing?

No, they put them in for a full session prior to their actual surgery, so that they can down regulate them, calm them, put them in, they get their lymphatics moving so that when they actually go into the surgery, their body is in a place of, well, let's say, healing before they've even started the surgery. And they've just found that the recovery is faster, that they get better compliance.

In other words, people aren't as stressed out when they're coming in and they're just using it as an adjunct rather than in the time of the surgery because it's- You're lying on a massage table. So, you're not actually in a seat, we have you fully supines because we want to make sure that we get- we work with gravity rather than against it. Got it.

Okay. So, these people are coming to the dentist, actually getting wrapped up before they ever get to see the dentist, and it's kind of setting the stage, so to speak. Is that what you're saying? Yes, before surgery, it's usually before surgery than a consult or anything more based on that they're about to get amalgams out for something or a major root canal or... Right. Okay. Interesting. Yeah, that's really interesting. And so, is this equipment that you manufacture or something you designed?

Tell us about that. Is this available on the web? Do you have a list of practitioners where people can have this done? Tell us a little bit more about all that. So, I designed the technology. We have a few different ways. We have different locations for the manufacturing. We have different parts that we bring in and then assemble when we're in the US. So, then we have clinics available... So, you have to be a licensed health practitioner.

We're a class two medical device, prescription only, to purchase it. But we do have clinics around the US and we can be found on the website. We have a map that's ongoing, so people are not allowed up on our website until they've completed their training, and then we make them available to the public. Great. And what's the website that you use? So, obviously, www., and then it's flowpressousa.com Okay. Let me look, flowpressusa... I d- yeah, presso, yep, P-R-E-S-S-O, usa.com. Right.

So, it's just... So, you have the whole thing. It's F-L-O-W- P-R-E-S-S- O-U-S-A. com. And then, they have flow products on there. OK. Interesting, Flowpresso. OK. So, I designed the consumables because we wanted to be able to have people go home and actually ensure that they maintain their lymphatics. It's not something you can get a one-week session and then you're sorted.

Unfortunately, with our environment right now and the foods we're eating and the exposures we're getting, you know, your lymphatic system needs a bit of love every day, not once a week.

And then, that way the consumables were designed so that we could encourage people to do that but we're also working on our at-home device at the moment and that'll be in the new year, we'll launch that plus one that I've done a lot of research on at the moment on lymphedema because that's a passion for me to help people with. Tell us a little bit about your four pillars of health.

You were talking about that a little bit before we started the podcast and you're in New Zealand and, you know, the native population in New Zealand are the Maori's. And they've been there, they've been there a long time, kind of like the Aboriginal people in Australia have been there a long time or Native Americans have been, you know, there are native populations everywhere.

So, tell us a little bit about the four pillars of health and maybe the interface with the Maori in that context. Certainly. We have a couple of different models here in New Zealand and we're starting to lean more towards them, which is exciting. One's called the Te Whare Tapafah model, which is called 'Four Pillars'. So, think of the house and four posts underneath it to hold the house up.

And so, the four pillars consist of four things to consider to really improve health and longevity, and to recover from illness. One, obviously being the body. You know, what are we eating? How are we physically looking after ourselves? What are we exposing environmental? The other one's emotional. So, what are we thinking? You know, where are we at from a mental health perspective? The third one being spiritual. Now, spiritual, may be for some, you know, like what do they believe in?

You know, a God, whether it's, you know, a particular religion, but it also can be, 'Who am I?' 'Why am I here?' And, 'What's my purpose?' And then, the fourth one is what we call Whanau. So, whanau means family. Now, this doesn't mean biological family. This can actually mean more that we're talking about who are the people you surround yourself with to be able to help you... Sorry? so this is like chosen family, if you will, not necessarily biological family, but chosen family.

The word you used, I'll just spell this for the audience is a Maori word. It's W-H-A-N-A-U, Whanau. And I guess that's their word for chosen family. Is that what it is or for family? It very much encompasses many things. It can be your biological family, can be your community that you feel you sit within, it can be your friends, can be all relations, but it's the one that you choose.

So, in other words, I'm not sure people really understand the impact of the people around them can have an impact on their health and wellbeing as well, just like the food we eat. So, for example, my sister went, yeah, my sister went through stage four.

And so, one of the things we did is we limited who could be around her at the time because we wanted to give her every opportunity that the people that were with her were a hundred percent committed to where she wanted to go, how she wanted to do her therapy. She was always positively impacted on. And I mean, she's here six years later with no cancer after a stage four diagnosis. So, it's one of the things that we consider when we're working with the four pillars.

Yeah. So, it's, it really has to do with whether you're surrounding yourself with toxins in a way. It's one way to detox yourself is actually to not surround yourself with toxins, which can be anything from pesticides to toxic individuals or toxic personalities, right? So yeah, it's super important. Interesting. we think it is those four to really break through in health and the future of health and longevity.

I really think the more that we can recognize all these different things play a part, then you're looking at yourself as a whole, not just as, like I talk about, I'm not just considering Lymphatics. I think of the whole circulatory system or I think of how the liver's got to deal with the overflow from, you know, coming through the heart, the dumping of that fluid and then how is the bowel gonna process and the kidneys and, you know, and that's an Eastern way of thinking.

They think of the whole body not just one aspect of. But we believe that, in health, you do need to consider the emotional, spiritual, and the the family that you surround yourself with. Yeah, no, I agree with that completely. Yeah, it's really about the whole being, right? It's not about the whole body. I mean, the body is just a piece of it. You know, I was listening to something recently that was talking about we're not, we're not, we're not humans having a spiritual experience.

We're actually spiritual beings having a human experience. Right? So, right. When you think about it from that perspective, then it kind of shifts your idea of, the body is important, but it's really just a manifestation of what's happening in the psychospiritual space in many respects, even, even risk for disease, right? Or risk for overeating or depression or whatever else. Yes, there are biological underpinnings to that, and those need to be addressed.

But there- you can also surround yourself with toxic personalities, job situations. And I think part of really optimizing life, you know, our target for longevity is really at 100 to have a 30-year-old body, but a 300-year-old mind, right? With all the equanimity, all the wisdom, all the perspective, all the great relationships, et cetera, that really support, you know, that, that ability to live young for a lifetime, but also with all the wisdom that comes from that 300-year-old mind.

So, it really aligns with kind of what you're talking about. Yes, I agree. I mean, the more we, I mean, we have that saying, 'You are what you eat'. But you are also, 'You are what you think.' So, you know, if thinking a particular way and you're not waking up with gratitude and with a focus of, having a different reality, then your body just lives Groundhog Day. And it believes that this is its reality and it listens to it. I mean, we're, we're vibrating at an incredible frequency.

And based on the surrounding frequencies we're around impacts our overall health and wellbeing. That's it. So, did you watch that movie in New Zealand, Groundhog Day? Yes, it's a good representation for health actually. It's probably some of those ones that people need to watch. movie. Yeah, Bill Murray was in that, was a very funny movie, but the more I watched it, I was- I watched it a long time ago.

Maybe saw it twice, but, you know, it started to strike me, I don't know, maybe halfway through the, through the movie just about how philosophical this was becoming, right? And it's, if you haven't seen that movie, it's really quite fascinating. So, that's, that's great. Well, Desiree, it's been a pleasure chatting with you. How can people get a hold of you? How can they find you? They want to reach out. an Instagram page.

We, obviously, have an Instagram page for our Flowpresso and our Flow_at home products. So, you can find doing a lymphatic insight podcast to be able to just bring a more collective awareness to the lymphatic. So this is everything from naturopathic doctors through to therapists, so that we can start to just let it stand on its own two feet and be recognized for its role in health. And that's been kind of important. Then, you know, we're moving forward with, obviously, more technology.

I think we're in for very interesting future with technology, especially when you're looking at what's going on in the world. And I think you've spoken about this too, you know, in the next five to 10 years, I think we're going to see some significant insights into how we can change the four pillars in a way that's more... gentler and softer than probably what we've done in the past, and that we do need to consider all those four factors.

So, I'm really excited to see what happens in the next five years when it comes to technology. Yeah. Agreed. Agreed. It's changing very rapidly. I think we're actually going to crack the code on aging in the next three to five years. So, that's very exciting as well. So yeah, that- If you just type in flowpressousa.com, that'll get you started and you can probably find almost everything else from there. So, well, Desiree, pleasure chatting with you.

Thanks so much for joining us all the way from New Zealand. Really great to connect. You too, thank you for your time and all the great work you're doing.

Thank you for that, yeah.