What's that at the foot of my bed.
It's spooky. I'm yooky.
I'm really sure it's dead. It's coming, it's way Wait a minute, Hey, I'm ghosted Hiram's dress. Hey boo, it's me Roz. Oh my god, you guys. Today is major in ghosted history. I am joined by Greg and Dana Newkirk. I have had so many requests to have them on. I have wanted to have them on for a minute now. It has not worked out until now. It is so worth the wait. You might know them because they have a series called hell Here, which you can actually watch
right now on Amazon. It's streaming, and it is so wild. It's about I mean, it's kind of about goblins, It's about so many things paranormal and not just in a ghost way. These people do it all, honey, They do the Bigfoot, haunted dolls. I mean, we get into a lot of it on this episode. But it's a two part conversation. So the second part, which will be out next week, we'll talk more about Hellier and a couple other things. But on today's episode, who You're gonna hear
one of the scariest haunted object stories. I think I've ever heard, at least firsthand from people that have experienced it. It is good and they are legit, and so I believe every word they say. They are a real life paranormal power couple. It's a fun way. That's a fun thing to a paranormal power couple. The two of them dedicate their life to the paranormal. They're based in Cincinnati. They are constantly popping up on different TV shows. We
talk about that too. So before we get into that conversation, first of all, COVID is completely out of my system as far as I know. I mean, I keep testing negatives. So thank you everyone to check in on me. I'm fine, don't worry. I Am back to normal, back to talking about weird, freaky, deeky stuff. Oh something else I should tell you about with Greg and Dana Newkirk. They have a paranormal conference that is online and it is called Phenomena con and I am going to be speaking at it.
I've never done something like that. I've never spoken at it paranormal conference, and we'll talk about it in the second part next So I just wanted to give you a heads up before then. I will be there doing a speech that you can watch from your home. It will be on the Sunday, which is the twenty seventh, at six pm Pacific time, but it will also be up for a little bit after that, I think, like a day or two. I can't remember exactly, but you
can check it all out. It's on their Patreon, which is patreon dot com slash Para Museum, and I'm going to be talking about finding the humor in the paranormal and finding the fun in it, which of course is so important to me. I'll probably also be doing just lots of goofy paranormal comedy, probably things that you've heard, probably things you haven't heard as well, kind of similar to like my last live show in La I did a lot of different kind of stand up comedy about
the paranormal. I'm sure some of that will be in there too. I'm not sure. I don't know. I know it'll be fun and funny and paranormal related. So I would love to see you there and to support them, and they do such a cool thing. I mean, there's also like Amy Brunei, Adam Barry, like lots and lots of different paranormal enthusiasts and professionals will be speaking as well, so check that out. In today's conversation, we start off by talking about curses. And it's been a minute since
I've looked into curses. I think early on in the pandemic it no longer is out there, but maybe if you were listening at the time, I was doing like daily little episodes on this main feed of the podcast, and I think I did an entire week about curses, and I was looking into different famous curses, like the James Dean Carr was one of them. I mean, of course, with curses and anything paranormal, people can say, oh, you know, it's not real, it's just it's just coincidence or whatever.
Everybody has their theories. But there are certain people, places, and things that have bad luck. It seems, I mean, bad things happen around certain things. And in today's episode it's briefly mentioned the Hope Diamond, and I wanted to look into the Hope Diamond. I've heard about it a few times. I've seen it on TV shows. Actually not to name drop, but one time, very casually, I was at an event a number of years ago and I met Leslie Jordan, who I love and I don't even
know how it came up. I think maybe probably it's probably because you know, I usually when I leave the house have giant diamonds on. Maybe that's what it was. But he started telling me about the Hope Diamond. I don't know. It just came up in conversation and I was like, I don't know about this, and so I was just doing some research and let's look into the Hope diamond real quick, shall we. It is a beautiful
blue diamond that weighs over forty five carrots. It is about the size of a walnut, and it is estimated to be worth a quarter of a billion dollars. Now I'm looking on this MSN dot com article from December called the Curse of the Hope Diamond, and it says here that the diamond was made approximately one billion years ago. It was originally mined from the Kohler mine in Telangana, India. Telangana,
I think I said it right. So the story is that a Hindu priest stole it from a temple in India because he thought it was just so beautiful it should be somewhere else. This is allegedly the story that I read on the internet. Now it seems it's unclear how, but it ended up in the hands of Jean Baptiste Tavernier, who lived from sixteen o five to sixteen eighty nine. Apparently he came down with a fever soon after he got the possession of the diamond, and he decided to
sell the diamond to King Louis the fourteenth. Apparently all of his kids, King Louis the fourteenth died except for one, and he died of gang green and it was a very painful death. So then it was passed on to Louis the Beloved, but it says nothing really happened to him. Okay, maybe it skips a generation or something. Louis the sixteenth, so he gave it to Marie Antoinette to where and then you know that didn't end up well. They were both executed and it says that the Hope Diamond was
stolen from the Royal storage house. Now, somehow it ends up in the possession of George the fourth in England, and he had a bunch of debt and he ended up dying a sad death of internal bleeding. So then a man named Thomas Hope, who was a wealthy banker and gem collector. He bought the diamond in an auction, and he and his brother Henry both died shortly after they bought the diamond. So that was Thomas Hope. That's how it got the name the Hope Diamond, I guess.
So that family had the diamond through most of the nineteenth century. In nineteen oh two, it went up for auction and it was handed off to a lot of different people. There was a sultan, Sultan Abdul Hamid, the second of the Ottoman Empire. While he had it, the entire empire crumbled beneath him. He ended up being the last Sultan of the Ottoman Empire and died in captivity. Then mister Cartier himself got his hands on it. He reset it and sent it to a fashionable and rich
American family named the mcleans. Eveline Walsh McLean. She wore it every single day. She even let her dog wear it. Can you imagine. Apparently once she had it, her mother in law passed away, and then her nine year old son died in a car accident. Oh my god. Her husband left her for another woman and then was admitted to a mental hospital and died in the hospital.
Wow.
Okay, this woman had it bad. She lost her daughter at the age of twenty five, and their family owned the Washington Post, which went bankrupt. So then she dies. They auction off the diamond to help pay for their debts for the Washington Post, and Harry Winston buys the diamond where he would put it on display at exhibition so that it wouldn't do any real damage. So then he donated it in nineteen fifty eight to the Smithsonian. So it says overall fourteen people have died while in
possession of the stone. So I don't know. Could that be a cursed object? It's possible. Here's what I know. If a man bought me the Hope Diamond as a gift, which I'm sure will happen at some point, they'll be like, Hey, I'm gonna just like you buy it from the Smithsonian for you. Raz I would probably say, no, I don't think I would want that in my home. But you know who's a great, great team of people to talk to about curses, Greg and Dana Newkirk. So we're going
to get into that right now. And as always, if you want to hear a little bit extra, go to Patreon dot com slash ros DRez Fales. We are talking a little bit more about Bigfoot. We talk about it on today's episode, but there's also a little bit more on Patreon. This week we talk about the Patterson Gimlin tape and uh, it's cool, It's all cool, all right. Here is my part one conversation with Greg and Dana
Newkirk on with the show. Oh my god, you guys, I have on today two giants in the paranormal field that have been requested on the show since honestly like the beginning of this podcast, and we have got it happening today, and I am so excited to welcome to the show, Greg and Dana Newkirk.
Hello, Hello, We're psyched to be here.
You guys, you don't even understand people. I think, like when Hellier came out, especially, so many people are like, you gotta watch this. Of course I watched it, and I'm like, I've just gotten really really I've really fallen in love with you guys watching all of your stuff. I just like, there's so much to talk about. There's
just like too much to talk about. So I'm just kind of like, you know what, We're just gonna let the conversation go where it goes, because I couldn't I couldn't possibly try to stuff everything that you guys do into like one conversation.
Well, listen, we'll just we'll just have to come back for round two at some point.
Oh my god, we got a call back. Guys, you're gonna come back. So how are you? What's going on?
Holy cow? Yeah, you're so busy for some reason, Like everything cool is happening this month's Then we just had History Channel at the house yesterday recording something about curses, so that was kind of fun and stressful and tiring. And uh, yeah, you know, we've we've got phenomenaon coming up. We're working on movies and new documentaries and yeah, we basically had two years of doing nothing and now everything'shitting out exactly.
You know, I have so much respect for what you guys do, because in the paranormal world, there's no blueprint for how you know what your career will look like or whatever. But it just seems like you guys you also must be hustlers, you know, like always on the go, like always trying to think of something new or whatever. Because you guys stay busy.
I think it's a weird thing. I think. I don't know if we're capable of relaxing. I don't know if we're capable of doing that. We're just kind of like it's partially also because we get to do what we love doing. So it's it's just coming out all the time in different creative projects. So yeah, definitely, we we aren't great at relaxing and we're kind of work all but we're we kind of.
Also love being plaining about being busy. Yeah, yeah, it's great.
So what were you talking? I mean, I'm sure you probably can't. We shouldn't say what you were doing on the History Channel. We want to watch it when it comes it.
Who cares?
Okay, it's already done. They can't take it back.
Now. We were we were shooting an episode of William Shatner's Unexplained and the Love That Show. Well, we're gonna be on it as long as as long as it turned out.
Okay, but explained with no E no, yes, yeah, trade that's what's unexplained.
Well, it's easier to trademark if there's no you can you can own that, own that made up word.
You know that's true. Okay, So you're talking about curses. This is something I want to I want to talk about curses because this is part of the exciting thing about you guys is that you guys do a lot of stuff in the paranormal dot I don't. I haven't really gotten into much Like I haven't talked about curses. I haven't talked about goblins that like a lot of stuff we haven't gotten to at this point after three years of this podcast. But Okay, so curses, what's going
on with that? You guys believe in curses?
What?
What? Well? Yeah, I think I think we have. Our beliefs on curses are probably a little bit different than than mainstreams, but it's it's basically about exploring the idea of what a curse is, how something gets a reputation, is being cursed, how do you break a curse? Things like that.
Yeah, I think like the thing that Greg and I, you know, we kind of talk about a lot, and it usually most kind of paranormal roads, specifically when we're talking about maybe the objects in the museum or how we kind of go about investigating the paranormal, we always end up really kind of focusing on conversations around intention and what it how intent, how powerful intention is, and uh so kind of subverting this idea of like curses
and looking at it from the perspective of intention. So when you know, when you're when you think something bad about someone and and you're kind of sending that energy to them or you, you know, you go as far as maybe making something that you can focus that negativity on. That was sort of the focus of where we were sort of leaning when we were talking about intention.
Or you send bad vibes to yourself or to yourself exactly. We curse ourselves more than anything else, and those are the hardest ones to break.
Yeah, is there a general way to break a curse if somebody has put a curse on you or is it just different from curse to curse.
Well, I think it depends. You know, Danta's answer might be a little different, but I think it depends on how much power you've already given that curse and how much how much power other people have. When you think about things that are famous curses, like the Hope Diamond
is a great example of it. You typically think about things that people have consistently for for you know, decad aid, if not centuries, loaded with ideas of what a curse is and what this thing has done to them and how it's affected them, and and it's like planting a seed, right, and so when that seed is planted that there's a curse, it only grows if you water it, and sometimes they turn into these massive redwood trees that are very hard
to chop down. So we're all about conflict resolution and the idea that if you can kind of step back and look at something and dissect why this thing is cursed, where did this originate? What you know culturally, society, societally, you know, even personally, how how do you relate to this idea of a curse. If you can sort of dissect that, you can dismantle it, you can make it go away.
Yeah, it's it's kind of a really rooted in belief, right. So if you believe in a curse, if you believe that you've been cursed, you are. And so it's it's sort of like reminding people that that that belief is sort of the seed for that curse to grow from.
And sometimes it requires a little bit more than, you know, just positive thoughts. Sometimes to anchor that idea in your head, you have to do a ritual. That ritual helps you get into that mental headspace where the physical act of unbinding something, pulling the nails out of something, from exactly separating yourself cutting a chord. Physically cutting a chord, it works symbolically in your own subconscious to sever your connection to that curse.
Do you guys know about a took the the movie script that they say is cursed?
Oh yes, I believe I do. Or you're you talking about a scriptor are you talking about that? There was like an actual short film that's like black and white. It's real creepy.
Oh there's that too. Now this is this movie script that it's supposed to be this comedy I want to say seventies or eighties. It was written and they say that it's cursed because every actor that got offered the lead role died. And it's like John Candy, Chris Farley, it's like all these and allegedly that it is fact that those people were offered those roles, and now who knows if it's a coincidence. I don't know, but it's
like I don't know. But so it's it's been shelved for a number of years because nobody wants to take the script.
Let's make it. Let's do it. Yeah, let's do it. Let's find that script. We'll just do a fan film and we'll see the facts.
Oh my god. Oh you know a big star that I know. You guys worked Okay, so you're working with all the stars. William Shatner, Jeff Goldblow, Yes, okay. Is he just like a gift from the gods or what? He's the best?
Probably pretty sure.
He's not human. He's like the most magical creature on the face of the planet. And he's like one of those people that you you're almost afraid to meet because you're like, please, don't like ruin this for me. I just want to believe that you are like a magical god and he is like he is literally everything and and just like the loveliest human being on the planet, like so kind people, so humble and just pure magic.
Just constantly flirting with every every everyone, everything, everything he.
Comes in there.
Just he's just very You are under his spells.
You get pulled into his orbit very easily.
I've I know a lot of people that now him or I've just I've heard so many stories that he's just like he's that he's just so nice. Nobody has a bad thing to say. He's just great. He's back. So you guys were on his show, well according to Jeff Goldbloom on Discovery Plus, and you guys went bigfoot hunting with him.
What did.
We? Uh?
We apparently got recommended and he picked us out of a group of bigfoot hunters and we had to have a conversation with the crew because it's a national geographic show, so it's I mean, it's like Emmy nominated, and we had to tell them like, listen, we're not those kind of bigfoot hunters. Yeah, you know, we're not going to be able to like pick up a piece of scat and tell you what it came from.
We can't let go.
Those tracks are from this type of like where we don't have those cool krypt zoology hats.
Or like, no, you've got to have a silly hat to be a cryptozologist.
We were like, we have really, really weird ideas about what bigfoot is, like even weirder than just the normal traditional bigfoot is a undiscovered primate ideas.
So we're very upfront with them and they were like, oh no, no, that's why Jeff wants to he doesn't want to hang out with normal Bigfoot hunters. He wants to hang out with people who think Bigfoot's an egg rigor a thought form roaming around the forest. And it was great. They kept us away from him on purpose until it was time to meet him, and they just stuck us in the redwoods. This it's the same forest that they used for Endoor in Star Wars and Jurassic
Park two, which he was in. Oh God, And we're just sitting there by this big fallen redwood tree, and then all of a sudden, we see this impeccably dressed man in this like so well manicured, well manicured. He's got like Italian leather boots on in the forest. He's got this like crazy long trench coat, this beautiful black trench coat. And he comes around the corner and he looks at us and he just like puts his fingers
to his temple and he goes the new Kirk. And I looked at Dana and I was like, I cannot believe this is We might as well have been beating Bigfoot.
Yeah, it's unbelievably legendary.
Yeah, so we tortured him for a couple a couple of days telling him all kinds of crazy stories and making him smell this like bigfoot pheromone. That's the most disgusting thing I've ever smelled in my life.
And where does somebody get their hands on bigfoot pheromones?
There's a like an actual lab, like a scientific lab out of Minnesota who they created their own pheromone chip that looks very much like the same kind that hunters would use for deer hunting. And it's this little orange chip that has combined like great ape pheromones and human pheromones because they believe that it will attract bigfoot. It's the closest they can get. And my god, does it smell like it smells like a really musty, horrific locker room.
Yeah, but does it work? Does it? Does it get the bigfoot?
We tried, we like, we tried an honest experiment with uh with the chips, and the only thing that happened is we we left one in a tree and we put a trail camera next to it in the middle of the woods, and we got a lot of deer. Unfortunately, no no bigfoot, though.
I will say that one when we did that, we had a bunch of our followers dare us to put one in our mouths. So I was like, you know what, if we raise some money for charity, If you guys will help me raise one thousand dollars for charity, I'll put it in my mouth. And they raised like seven grand.
In your mouth?
No God, no one. I could barely keep it in my mouth, like for a minute. And the craziest thing was, for a solid week, all of the dogs in the neighborhood were freaking out trying to warn the entire neighborhood that there's a giant monkey man monster running around Cincinnati, screaming and howling. And this is the worst part. I have not quite smelled the same since I put that thing in my mouth. No very hair in weird places, very musky. So I may have permanently damaged my DNA.
I mean, yeah, you might be turning into a bigfoot.
I guess there's worse things that could happen.
Yeah, if you go out in those woods, they might try to make out with you or something.
Hey, if that's how we have to get the evidence, got to do it. You gotta be the bait.
Well, I like the idea of there being some kind of magic behind it and it being the manifestation of someone's you know, magic practices. Oh yeah, yeah, I've heard you guys talk a little bit about I mean, is that is that your leading theory at this point or what do you think?
Well, listen, the you know, cryptosologists hate it like real serious ones hate it. When like we took the Finding Bigfoot team out for like two weeks in Mount Shasta. Their their production crew brought us in as an alternate team to investigate all the cases they wouldn't touch because they're very like, you know, Bigfoot is a flesh and blood creature. It's just really good at hiding and to us.
Really good like fifty years befo.
Sure for us though, it's it seems like a ghost. You see the same exact things with the ghosts. So there's no you know, there's no physical bodies. Ever, there's no there's no conclusive hair. They find hair all the time, but it always comes back from the lab like no, this isn't this is human hair. There's no conclusive hair, you know, and yet it leaves footprints, and yet tons of people see it. So many people see it that it would have to be one of the most well
organized hoaxes in the world. So there's something going on there, and to me, it seems like a ghost. I remember having a conversation with Bobo. I'm pretty sure it's in the episode where he's like, you know, they're they're attacking deer, they're leaving footprints. He's like, ghosts don't do that, and I'm like, no, no, you say that because you didn't
grow up in the paranormal community. One of the oldest tricks in the book is to put baby powder down on the ground and then have the footprints show up. You know, there's all stories about like little kid's handprints on windows, things like that. We just don't think twice
about them because they look like ours. But if it's the ghost of something that maybe used to exist, or something that has been willed in to existence by hundreds of thousands of people meditating on the Patterson Gimblin footage or whatever their idea of an ideal bigfoot, looks like, well, sure that explains all of the issues that we have with capturing any evidence of it or finding a physical body.
So I think that really interesting thing. And you know, it's obviously kind of where our interests lies. When you look at a lot of a majority of kind of bigfoot cases or Bigfoot investigations, you're really seeing in most cases the ones that aren't paranormal. But there are so
many of them. There are so many cases of big foot sightings where you have you know, green flashes of light that follow the experience or feelings of hallucination or being hypnotized or seeing something there that's not there, or missing time, and they're so obviously connected to a lot
of paranormal experiences like those. You know, one of the things that we experience that sticks out in my mind when we were filming that Finding big Foot episode is we are we we got to a location that we were going to be looking and investigating, and right as we went out into the field, like a ton of people's tech went down, so all their batteries were getting drained.
They're like, and they were they were sort of confused, but it seemed like it was something that was pretty common for the for the crew, and you know, they they were just sort of like, oh, it happens, you know,
occasionally happens. But Greg and I having a background you know, in the ghost space a little bit more, we know that happens a lot when when paranormal investigators go into places and their batteries get drained and and it's very likely, you know, a strange occurrence versus like just kind of coming into like a bunch of bad batteries or something
like that. So the one thing that we really kind of discovered because of that experience was that that crossover that exists sort of in all of these spaces, whether it's eufology or ghost hunting or cryptozology, there's so much crossover that gets overlooked because, you know, the cryptozoology community tend to be those flesh and blood minded people, or they're looking for undiscovered discovered primates or animals, but yet
they're having very very strange paranormal experiences, and those cases tend to get kind of tossed out because it's not really of interest to them.
More, more of these people should be dipping their toes into things that they maybe aren't terribly interested in, like bigfoot hunters should be talking to ghost hunters, and ghost hunters should be talking to ufologists, and if they all kind of dip their toes and we're a little more diversified, they would see that there is a massive amount of crossover and they're all missing information that can help them all put together their individual puzzles.
It's also way more fun.
Yeah, exactly, of course.
God, well, we covered Bigfoot nights top. Can we talk about the museum and the haunted objects and stuff?
Absolutely?
Tell everybody about your museum.
Dana and I run the world's only mobile museum of the Unexplained, and it contains everything from artifacts from some of the most famous hauntings in history. We have alleged crashed UFO parts from famous UFO crashes. We've got items relating to the history of psychic testing. We even have movie props, you know, like we have Fox Mulder's flashlight and Dana Scully's gun, things relating to the pop culture
of the paranormal. And we do have a few pretty wild haunted artifacts in there that we've experienced some really strange activity with. And we take these things across the country all over and people have lots of really weird experiences in the museum.
So where's all the stuff right now?
Right next to us, we're sitting in our kind of I'll have to send you a picture. We're sitting in our new studio and we set it up for the History Channel shoot the other day kind of busted out all the greatest hits and so they're all staring at us as we talk.
Oh my god, So how do you how do you just live with that? I mean, I know you guys aren't like, uh uh, you know, scared traditionally or whatever the way that that a normal person that doesn't have experience with this stuff would be. But like, is that a nuisance at ever?
It's It has absolutely been at certain points, I think at this this point, having so many different weird things, and you know, a lot of them being relatively active objects, we've kind of learned how to sort of I think we think about it in terms of like their roommates to a degree, like we just sort of we have we respect one another's space, and.
Sometimes you get one that's kind of allowed. Yeah, it doesn't pay the rent on time, and you know you have to the conflict resolution, right, But yeah.
It's the interesting thing I think about what we do is when people so a majority of the objects in the museum are donated. People send things to our po box. They see us at events and bring us things, and you know, one of the things that we do is we always ask people to if they're going to donate something to the museum, give us a handwritten note, something that kind of details their experience with the object, any history, anything that they can give us, because we sort of
think about it as the jumping off points. So when someone gives something to us, it's sort of like our investigation begins, and we really want to do as much as we possibly can to understand the history of the object, the folklore around the object, the activity that people have
experienced with it. Because one of the things that we've learned throughout the years being kind of caretakers for these weird things, is that more often than not, when you get something that is kind of frightening and people have had frightening experiences around it, it's likely there's something going on there, and so we are kind of always thinking about it from the ethics of if there's an intelligence attached to an object, or an aspect of an intelligence
that's attached to an object, it's kind of our responsibility to a degree.
To help it.
If there's something there that requires assistance or help, then then that's kind of what we want to do. And so I think just having that mindset going into dealing with some of the scarier things actually does create a bit of a nice like boundary where we're you know, we we recognize that what we're doing is kind of weird and different, but hopefully again there's that conflict resolution.
Hopefully we can figure out why and if there's something that we can do to help the experience, to help the intelligence, and that's what we'll do.
Yeah, it's interesting after talking about curses, because you know, some of course there's cursed objects and that kind of a thing. So I imagine that you probably take that same logic of intention and everything with that. I mean, do you believe that there's objects that are you know, truly evil and can really mess somebody up?
I think that, you know, if we ascribe intelligence to items or places, or spirits or ghosts, whatever, if we ascribe intelligence to them, we have to give them the benefit of the doubt. We have to say, you know, every human has the capacity to be ultimate good or ultimate evil. They make that choice, and a lot of the times that choice is defined by the experiences that they've gone through, their surroundings and you know, their own
just their own thought processes. So we always try to look at things from a very neutral perspective if we can so, even something that shows up. Here's a perfect example. I'll tell you a little story about one of the objects. It was the only thing we've ever had to return, and it was an item that was sent to us by a couple hikers who found it in a cave
in the Catskill Mountains. They were way off the beaten path, and they find this little outcropping in it is this effigy that looks like a carving of a woman fairly old, and there are nails driven into the eyes and a noose around the neck. And looking at it like if you know any like even have the most fleeting pop culture reference for what a curse looks like. You look at that and go, that's not nice.
Yeah, and yeah, oh cute.
Exactly. One of the guys decided to take it home, and almost immediately what you imagine happens in that situation begins to occur. Wet footprints began to manifest, They begin to smell this terrible stench of standing water, like pond water.
Their animals were acting really strange, just kind of a slew of bizarre things start happening in and around their house.
And the last straw was when they came home, the statue is not where they left it, and they see what looks like an old crone, a naked woman standing in the corner of their house, scraggly hair, dripping wet, and their dog is freaking out. And at that point they said, we can't have this thing anymore. They ended up contacting us.
So you guys are like, oh, we'll take it.
Well, No, I mean again, I'm very much about there's this weird thing in the paranormal realm where there's people who want to tell you like I'm the only one who can solve your problem. My God can solve your problem, my belief system can solve your problem, my expertise can solve your problem, YadA YadA, like you got to all us in. We don't have that approach very much about self empowerment. I want to give other people the tools to solve their own problems because it's way more effective
that way. And I did the same thing. I said, listen, just take it back to where you found it, put it back in the cave. Apologize. I know it's going to feel weird. Just apologize out loud, back out of the cave and just mean it, and that very likely will fix the issue. They were too scared. They didn't want to meet whoever put it there. They were afraid
they couldn't find the cave again. They didn't want to be in the woods carrying this thing around, and so they said, listen, can we just send it to you? Can you deal with it. I'm fine with that. We're happy to do it. But ninety nine percent of the stuff people send us, I can willingly admit we never experienced anything with I believe that other people are experiencing phenomena around it, because I think that the paranormal is a very personal and subjective thing. But this item was
a little different. It shows up and we do what we always do. We take photos of it all the way around and we just go about our day. We log it, we put it in the collection, and then that's that. Later that night, I am watching TV where we're in the living room, and I hear a crash in the office, and Dana and I were like, oh, it's probably the cats. You know, they're fighting. So I
was like, I'll go break it up. So I get up to go to the office, which is on the other side of the old apartment, and I noticed that the office door is closed. It's like, well, that's kind of weird. So I look around the corner and I look in the bedroom. I don't see the cats. Turns out they're hiding under our bed. They're absolutely terrified. Anyone who has animals, no, they're usually an early warning sign that something strange is going on. So I walk back
over to the office. I open the door. I don't see anything amiss until I feel something underneath my feet. I have almost stepped on Jesus who has been ripped off of a crucifix hanging on the wall. I look up at the crucifix, which only hung there by a single nail, so something had to have literally snapped it off. Two of the nails were missing, there was one still there, and it just had a single arm swinging on it. I look down and the crone is right underneath of it.
At that point we both said, okay, this is something to pay attention to. We put a trail cam up. We wait a couple of days. I think it took a couple of weeks before it finally went off, and one night it goes off. There's three images on it. When we look at them the next day, there's lots of light anomalies in there, but nothing that would ever convince a skeptic. And Dana goes, well, that light looks like it's moving around. What if you, like, you know,
flip through real fast. Let's stitch them together and you know, see if we get an idea of where that light comes from and where it goes. What we ended up noticing is the statue itself moves on its own very slightly. It just moves takes just a little bit of a turn. After that, we start spelling the pond water. One day, Dana calls me into the living room and she says, were you just standing on the couch?
There were It was so weird there and again like there, you know, we photographed everything, documented everything. There were two perfectly wet human footprints standing on the back of the couch, so as if someone got up onto the part of the couch that you lean against and stood there just facing over your shoulders. Yeah, like by your shoulder, your shoulder, just perfect feet, yeah, just wet, a set of perfectly wet feet.
It was an ikea couch don't worry about okay it but like you know, the.
The first thing that I thought of, like in my logical brain is trying to function when all this weird
thing stuff is happening. And the only thing that I could think of was like it, you know, just above it are sort of above it was a ceiling fan, and I thought, like, did Greg get out of the shower and change a light bulb or like as you do, like I couldn't, but like you can see the heel, you can see toes and like just in the weirdest spot imaginable, just sitting there standing there on top of the back of the couch.
I feel like at that point, that's when you have to get that like old granny like plastic cover for a couch, just to ensure that that doesn't ever happen again, maybe like something the slip. But okay, okay, I'm on the edge of my seat. Okay.
After that, we're in bed one night. Well, well I'll let you tell this part because you're the one who experienced it.
It so I'm not a light sleeper. I'm pretty it wants I'm asleep. I'm asleep. And this was shortly afterwards waking up in the middle of the night to see what looked like and the best way describe it as like,
it's so it was like seeing a living nightmare. Like I saw what looked like a tall shadow, probably six feet tall, if not a little bit more than that, standing in the right in the doorway of my closet, just standing there and move and kind of moving a little bit, like enough that like, again, your logical brain kicks in in moments like that where I want to explain it away. So I was like, is it am I? Like,
did I hang up a jacket there? And I'm just seeing the shape of it, But it was like moving enough that I could tell that it wasn't just a piece of clothing, and it was just like literally just standing there and moving, like moving ever so slightly in the creepiest way possible.
After that, I said, well, it's time to have the talk. And we don't normally do this. It feels very silly, it's silly to even describe, but we, uh, we took the statue, we set it in the living room table and we just sat down and started talking and listen, we want to share our space with you. But let's set some ground rules. You know, we don't want to be scared. We want to help. We want to do things. If there's something you need, like figure out a way to let us know what you need, we'll do what
we need to do to fix it. And as we're having this discussion, we hear the sound of rushing water from the other side of the apartment. Any idea of the paranormal left my brain because in our previous apartment we had gone through a burst pipe from the second floor and anyone who's gone through it knows it's horrific. It's terrible. So I jump up and we both run to the other end of the apartment. I'm trying to figure out how well where's this water coming from? How
can we turn it off? But there's nothing there. And as we're standing there trying to figure out where this noise is coming from, we hear these thuds in the living room, just like doom doom, doom, doo dun. And we walk back into the living room and the crone is gone. We start looking all over the place and I see that it has rolled off of the table
and under the television stand. So I go over. I get down on my hands and knees and I reach under the television stand and I hear data shriek because the TV has started to slowly tip and was going to smash on my head.
Oh oh my god.
If Dana hadn't run over and grabbed it, it would have got me.
Uh. So I said, this is also all happening in like relatively short time span, Like this isn't this is like I've talked about this a lot, but like at this point, I'm feeling wildly out of control, Like this is like this experience.
Is it's a lot.
Like we were both really really overwhelmed by what was happening.
Yeah, just chaos, just yeah, one after the other after the other.
Uh, We're not like, we're not like ring of salt people. We're not like put it in a chest and lock it away or burn it or bury it type people. That's not what we're about again, conflict resolution. But I I was like, listen, if this is how it's going to be, I'm going to have to do something I don't want to do, and I'm just going to have to put you in a box and put you away until we can figure out what to do with you.
And as I'm saying that we heard three loud bangs on the wall, and I said, okay, I'm going to take that as a confirmation. So we put it in a box, put a lock on it, and we just kind of stuck it on the bottom shelf in the office and tried not to think about it. But we have a traveling museum. We travel across the country with this stuff, and one of the ways that we learn things is from meeting people who are smarter or more specialized than we are. Doing these events is a perfect
way to do that. We've solved so many mysteries that way. So we decide, let's take this thing out. We just won't let people hold it. There's very few items in the museum that we feel that way about. But because we didn't fully understand it, we kept it on the note touching list.
How did you travel with that?
Oh, in the it's in a box. It's just in the box with the lock on it, and then it travels separately from the other stuff. In a chat. We have all kinds of like chests in a big tent that we set up, and it looks like you were in a Victorian parlor when you walk in and everything just kind of has its own box and its own special space. Most of them don't need to be kept away from each other, but sometimes one of them can
be a bad influence. So this one we just because we didn't know anything about it, we kept it locked up, We kept it separate. But as we started to take this thing out to events, we would meet people who would say, well, this is a dense wood. My family owns a lumber company. This would is clearly from a swampy area, which is interesting. We're able to meet people who kind of have ideas about where they think this
has originated. But the other thing we started to notice is that people who got near it would feel their eyes burned, they'd feel their throats close up. There were people who came in and kind of made fun of the idea that something could be cursed or haunted, and then came back the following day because the tire in their truck had blown out and pushed them across the median and flipped over and almost got hitten by a semi trailer, and they blamed it on the chrone. Lots
of that type of stuff. The last straw happened at an event in Michigan. One of the bigger paranormal events, and we're at the end of this like convention hall. Uh, and there had been a guy that had come from Canada and he really wanted to see the chrone. We're pretty particular about some of the stuff that we bring out, depends on the crowd. If they're like one of the crowds where people want to fight ghosts, we don't pull all some of that stuff out, you know, the type
I think, And this kind of felt that way. The vibe didn't feel right. But this guy kept asking and asking and asking, and so I, you know, looked at Dana and I said, well, maybe just for a second. So we unlocked the box and I pull it out of the pillowcase, and almost immediately there's this force that just it's hard to explain. It's just this feeling. This energy just shoots down the convention hall. Papers are coming off of people's desk, the lights are flickering, some of
them start to swing. People are looking all over. There's like a the woman across from us had a bunch of books she was selling, and her bottle of soda, you know, pops and falls over and destroys hundreds of dollars worth of books. People are like freaking out, genuinely freaking out. And then we see it. At the end of the hall. There's a guy whose head has flung back in the air and he's bleeding out of his mouth and he has this horrible seizure and has to be taken out by paramedics. What as this.
Happens, This is also happening in front of like a convention.
Hundreds of people. The guy who begged us to see it starts to cry and says, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. Put it back, put it back, put it back. And that's when Dana and I said, this thing has to go back to where it came from. We cannot travel with this thing anymore.
And you know, it's also at that point likely that it's not even an object that's safe for us to have in our collection, but also like there's something big going on here, so that's we need to definitely bring this back to its place of origin.
So long story short, we make a plan to return it to the mountain. We know the relative area it was from, don't know exactly where the cave is, but figure, as long as we can get back to this place we can do an unbinding ritual and we can whatever it is that is causing all of this. Let's remove the sources of the negativity. Let's remove the nails, let's remove the noose. Dana can bless it and we can
take it back to where it came from. And Dana has sort of an online coven of sorts and teaches a lot of classes about witchcraft and sympathetic magic and all that stuff. So she recruits like a hundred or so witches from around the world to help us with
this coordinated ritual. We end up hiking miles up into the mountains off the beaten path to this particular location, and then once the sun goes down, Dana cass a circle and almost immediately something keeps trying to get in, and it sounds like it's wearing like big boots and it's just stumping around the circle that we can't leave until the ritual is complete.
So one of the idea of the circle is, if you want to think about it kind of energetically, it's the idea that we're creating a boundary sort of a gateway, a boundary point, and as we're doing our ritual, we're working with an intention, and that intention is like, as Greg mentioned, a non binding. So the way that I like to practice magic is by utilizing sacred circles because it lets us kind of build energy without it dissipating. So we could have done the same ritual without having
a circle. But then we're building all of this energy and we're we're focusing on our attentions and there's really nothing energy energetically there to kind of contain it so
that we can channel in focus it. So it was as if that boundary line that we had created, that that sacred circle that we had created, was sort of this point where we were having these strange things kind of come up to the edge of it and almost test hit Like we we could hear physically hear the sound of what sounded like a very large person like you mentioned in really heavy boots stomping all the way
around our circle. And we're standing there in the middle of the woods, you know, miles and miles away from everybody else, looking at exactly where we're hearing the sound from.
There's nothing there, there's no it wasn't a person, it wasn't an animal, and it consistently kept happening throughout the course of the night as we were doing our ritual, as if something was either interested in what we were doing and kind of drawn to that area, or it was something that that just couldn't get within that space.
Oh my god, I forgot. One of the elements of the ritual was because we are a museum, and because it's important for us to preserve these stories and to continue talking about them and try and figure out the true nature of these things, we wanted to have some kind of a relic of this to continue touring with,
to continue showing people, to continue telling the story. So we recruited our friend Tyler, who's a special effects makeup artist, to do something that no special effects makeup artists in their right mind would ever do, to cast a museum quality mold of this thing in the freezing weather on the top of a mountain in a tent and no other Again, I can't stress like you'd need to have a specific temperature for the mold to set up. Like all the stuff.
We had to bring a generator or like a heater with us, appropriate heater with us.
And the hundreds of pounds of molding agent, the tent.
The separate tent alone had to be like a perfect environment for this molding.
Like seventy degrees.
And we were doing this at the end of October, so it's absolutely freezing outside by the time the sunsets, and we're just sort of like hoping that we can keep this tent as hot as humanly possible because it needs to be like relatively warm for this this molding agent. To actually even.
Say, I have had that done to my face before and it's one of the worst experiences ever. That would definitely piss off any.
We well, we tried. We had this this short lived project where we were trying to three D scan haunted objects, which went about as well as you can imagine, and we tried to do the chrone, but we had to do that in a hotel because the guy who was our three D modeler, he had made a joke about the crone. He said like, oh, the crone can have my baby as a sacrifice, like, you know, tasteless joke, but it very you know, it was funny at the time.
And then later that night he calls us frantically, like skypes us frantically and shows us that his front door was open and there were wet footprints that went through his house up the stairs, and there was a puddle of water in front of his crime his kid's crib. Fortunately, his kid was with his mother in law that night, and so he refused, like, we're not doing this at my house. We're not doing this at my house. So
we had to get a hotel room. And then when he went to modify the file, because we liked to print these to see how they turned out. In order to print it, he had to digitally remove the noose and the nails, and to do that he had to
separate the head from the body. As soon as he separated the head from the body in the file, in the file, these fingers came out of the neck and there are images of these where you can see these twisted fingers that are not connected properly, but you can see like fingernail fingernail ridges on them and everything like something is trying to crawl out.
Oh my god.
And so we this was our last ditch effort, was to do like an actual museum quality mold on the mountain. So we had to still do that even in ritual space. It's a very weird thing to watch Dana consecrate pliers, like really mundane tools that we needed for the ritual.
Yeah, anything that we were using that night was part of that ritual. So we were having to kind of cleanse and purify, like Greg said, pliers and really really mundane things, but it was all kind of part of this larger ritual that took place throughout the course of an.
So we pulled all the nails out. They were I mean, it took the entire weight of my body to do it. It's unnatural the way that they were in there, pulled all the nails out, you know, Dana consecrated it. We we ended up we took the noose off. As soon as that noose came off, there was like a pop of electricity in the air, and we all just started to cry because we knew that it was gone, like the thing that was in front of us was just
a piece of wood. At that same time, all the coyotes on the mountains started to howl, which we had not heard at all.
And then we had a pack of coyotes just just like screaming into the night.
And so we all just kind of sat there and had a real good cry and milk molded put the crone in the mold. It was so cold we were unsure if it was going to set up. But in the morning we buried her and said a few words I had. Essentially it was a funeral and uh, never had a problem since. So that's uh some some of the lengths we've had to go. You guys fixed problems.
Well, it's like an incredible movie story.
Funny you should say that we have a feature length documentary that I think is finally picture locked. And it was a really weird one to do because it it started off as like a little half hour featurette that we were doing just for our museum members and our friend Carl who directed it. He's he's who directed and edited Hellier.
Uh.
He said, guys, this is too good. So we ended up expanding it into a feature length film that's made up of all the all the footage that we had, recordings, live streams that we've had with it.
Pretty obsessive documenter, so we really document as much of most of the experiences that we weird experiences that we have as possible. So the whole thing was documented, our entire all the iPhone footage from the ritual.
Yeah, oh my god, I can't wait to see this.
It's so good and we're pretty sure we figured out what the crow was ford and why what was done to it was done to it, but we're keeping that secret for the time.
Oh my god, that's like that was literally my next question. But okay, okay, no, that's great.
We're hoping later this year it'll be available. But yeah, we'll see fingers crossed.
Going back to the beginning of the story, there's you know, everybody has their theories and whatever, but people people will say that if you have a cursed object or a haunted object, you can't give it to someone. It's attached to you, whatever the thing is. So I mean, did you talk to the guy that found it after it had it all stopped for him?
Oh?
No, he completely disappeared. The way that we even he just disappeared, well, so the way that we even it's kind of convoluted how we even got involved. We okay, so we talked about the Finding Bigfoot episode that we'd shot. We spent two weeks with the crew driving around the mountains of California telling them all kinds of crazy stories about the haunted objects and cases we've investigated, and hang out with alien abductees like all that kind of stuff.
And one of the crew members was reading the paranormal subreddit over on Reddit, and one of the guys had posted there about finding this thing and experiencing all this
stuff and not knowing what to do. So this guy, who is a production assistant literally on another shoot, just sitting there killing time in a van, you know, production hurry up and wait, he's just killing time, sees this remembers all the stories we were telling him and says, hey, you should get in touch with Greg and Dana Newkirk. They deal with things like this and they might be
a help you. So that is how we ended up talking to this guy, was literally through Reddit on a Reddit throwaway count and then after he sends it, wanted nothing to do with it. And I periodically have checked and I've tried to reach out, especially as we were working on the documentary, but there's there's never any response, So I don't know. I mean, the thing is like, this is the craziest thing about stories like this is
this could very well have been a hoax. It could be an art project, it could be an actual haunted, cursed object. That doesn't matter. When you start to think about the idea of like Eggrigor's and thought forms and the idea of intention, because that's how a curse starts.
Enough people believe in it. And then this big part of the reason why we felt like we had to go to the mountain, why we had to sever our own connection to this, because once we started experiencing stuff, we're telling other people's stories about this, they start to experience stuff. So we have a hand in propagating this story, this curse, and by us going up. Whether you're a skeptic or a believer, and that even you know, that's
even for us. I try to be very agnostic. I try to live in one world and another at the same time. But the physical act of going up the mountain, pulling those nails out, pulling that noos off, severing our own connection to it, and then like finalizing this this tail whatever this is putting an end cap on. It also does that for other people and effectively breaks that spell. And so it works on a psychological level, it works on a paranormal level. However you need to look at it.
It's putting an end to that story and thus putting an end to that activity.
Got you, guys, really like break stigma or something around so much of this stuff because I mean, most people myself included, would be like, nope, I'm out of here, Like would I would never, I wouldn't go out in the woods no matter what. But the fact that you guys do do and live to tell the tale, I think it really does take away some of that power of these things being so you know, scary, and.
I hope so I think we get I think for very obvious reasons. And I don't fault people for this. I think we get compared to people like Edd Larin Warren a lot, but we try to be the anti Eden Larrain Warren because don't I didn't like the way that they Again, if you believe that these things have an intelligence to them, you really have a responsibility to treat them that way. If somebody, if you've got a friend who's in a bad mood, you try and figure
out what it is. You don't lock them in a box and put them in a ring of salt and then like every once in a while, come rattle the cage so they do a trick, you know what I mean.
That's the wrong way to deal with this stuff. If you're an intelligent, compassionate human being, and so I hope that by us telling these stories, I hope by us sharing these experiences and sharing the way that we deal with them, and sharing the way that we try to give other people self empowerment in their own scary situations with paranormal phenomena, they maybe choose curiosity instead of choosing fear.
Because the whole thing is like, if you can learn to not be afraid of the monster under your bed, if you can make friends with the monster under your bed, you can make friends with the guy down the street who has a different spiritual belief than you, or or is it you know has a different view on gender or sexuality or whatever. It Just be kind to everything, give everything the benefit of the doubt, and that makes the world a better place.
Oh that's beautiful. Thank you, Greg and Dana Nwkirk. Don't you worry, baby. We got more next week with part two, so make sure you're subscribed to the show. Also, you can hear a little bit extra of us talking about Bigfoot Moore on patreon dot com slash rosdres Falaise. Hey, please rate the show five stars if you like it and tell your friends about it. Don't forget go to Phenomena Con. You can see me. I will be there. It's all the last weekend of February and I will
be there on the twenty seventh. That is a Sunday. You can stream it from home. Patreon dot com. Slash Para Museum is where you can get those tickets. We'll be talking about that more next week. Join our Facebook group called ghosted by rosdres Fales. Send me your ghost stories. You could do it at ghosted by Ros at gmail dot com or in a five star review on Apple Podcasts. I'm on Instagram at rozhernandez TikTok and Twitter at it's raz Heernandez. I love you all, both living and dead.
But if I didn't ask you to haunt me, don't haunt me. Gaybye. Star Bands are a podcast a podcast network