Pandemic Ain't Over, with Elea Chang

00:00:20:24 00:00:24:06 Hi everyone. It has been a while 00:00:24:07 00:00:26:01 and I'm sorry that I have not been 00:00:26:02 00:00:28:02 on here, but I'm very grateful 00:00:28:03 00:00:30:06 and excited to be returning 00:00:30:07 00:00:32:04 to the show 00:00:32:05 00:00:34:00 with another organizer 00:00:34:01 00:00:36:09 who's up to really incredible work 00:00:36:10 00:00:38:03 and really incredible creative 00:00:38:04 00:00:39:10 endeavors that we're going to get 00:00:39:11 00:00:41:10 into shortly. 00:00:41:11 00:00:43:06 But without further 00:00:43:07 00:00:44:15 ado, welcome. 00:00:44:16 00:00:46:23 Ali, welcome to the show. 00:00:46:24 00:00:47:21 Hi. 00:00:47:22 00:00:49:11 Thanks for having me. 00:00:49:12 00:00:51:03 No, thank you for taking the time. 00:00:51:04 00:00:52:15 I know it's a little earlier on the 00:00:52:16 00:00:53:18 side of the country. 00:00:55:24 00:00:57:18 So, Ellie, can you ground us a 00:00:57:19 00:00:59:22 little bit on your sort of work? 00:00:59:23 00:01:00:21 I know you're an incredible 00:01:00:22 00:01:02:16 disability justice organizer, 00:01:02:17 00:01:05:02 artists, community builder, 00:01:05:03 00:01:07:12 and I know you hold a lot of titles. 00:01:07:13 00:01:09:14 But I'm curious, you know, what 00:01:09:15 00:01:11:15 values anchor your work 00:01:11:16 00:01:13:03 and kind of like what are the values 00:01:13:04 00:01:14:25 that make you wake up every 00:01:14:26 00:01:16:18 day and continue to do this type of 00:01:16:19 00:01:18:01 work? 00:01:18:02 00:01:19:20 I don't know if I would call them 00:01:19:21 00:01:21:21 values per say, but the things 00:01:21:22 00:01:23:16 that really drive me is just 00:01:23:17 00:01:25:19 I really just want to affirm 00:01:25:20 00:01:27:18 and celebrate and 00:01:27:19 00:01:30:24 care for multiple marginalized 00:01:30:25 00:01:33:04 bipoc particularly disabled 00:01:33:05 00:01:34:04 bipoc 00:01:35:23 00:01:37:24 just to really get the message 00:01:38:00 00:01:40:14 across that, you know, 00:01:40:15 00:01:41:20 you are not alone. 00:01:43:05 00:01:45:00 It may feel like that sometimes. 00:01:45:01 00:01:47:12 I know a lot of disabled people 00:01:47:13 00:01:49:11 or a lot of bipoc living 00:01:49:12 00:01:51:22 in certain parts of the country feel 00:01:51:23 00:01:54:09 very isolated and othered. 00:01:54:10 00:01:56:24 And a lot of my work is about 00:01:57:00 00:01:58:21 reassuring you that you are 00:01:58:22 00:01:59:23 not alone. 00:01:59:24 00:02:02:02 There are other people who empathize 00:02:02:03 00:02:03:12 with you who are going through 00:02:03:13 00:02:05:13 similar things, not the exact same 00:02:05:14 00:02:07:15 things, but please never 00:02:07:16 00:02:09:11 feel like you are the only one 00:02:09:12 00:02:10:11 out there. 00:02:12:07 00:02:13:18 And plus, I just want to remind 00:02:13:19 00:02:15:17 people that we all have, like, power 00:02:15:18 00:02:16:18 and agency, 00:02:18:08 00:02:20:10 not necessarily in, like, the same 00:02:20:11 00:02:23:06 amounts, obviously, 00:02:23:07 00:02:25:05 but we all do have some 00:02:25:06 00:02:26:22 degree of power in agency 00:02:28:07 00:02:30:09 and whatever way we can find 00:02:30:10 00:02:33:04 to exercise, that is 00:02:33:05 00:02:35:16 just super important 00:02:35:17 00:02:37:02 to moving forward in life. 00:02:38:08 00:02:39:13 I don't know. Those are just like 00:02:39:14 00:02:41:04 very fancy ways of being like, 00:02:41:05 00:02:42:22 that's my way of loving on people. 00:02:45:13 00:02:47:10 So that's that's really 00:02:47:11 00:02:49:20 a lot of what my work is driven by. 00:02:49:21 00:02:50:16 Yes. 00:02:50:17 00:02:52:16 I'm a 00:02:52:17 00:02:54:12 this this notion of care, 00:02:54:13 00:02:55:20 which I feel like we've all been 00:02:55:21 00:02:58:05 thinking more expansively 00:02:58:06 00:02:59:20 of what care means through this 00:02:59:21 00:03:01:13 pandemic. 00:03:01:14 00:03:02:23 I think seeing all the displays of 00:03:02:24 00:03:04:22 mutual aid of 00:03:04:23 00:03:06:18 folks sort of reimagining like 00:03:06:19 00:03:08:13 how we show up for one another and 00:03:08:14 00:03:10:19 ourselves and these times, 00:03:11:21 00:03:13:10 yeah, like even for myself, it makes 00:03:13:11 00:03:15:20 me think a lot about what care means 00:03:15:21 00:03:17:21 and like what how we embody 00:03:17:22 00:03:18:21 care. 00:03:19:23 00:03:22:00 I'm also on that on that note, 00:03:22:01 00:03:23:14 Ali, I'm thinking around the ways in 00:03:23:15 00:03:25:12 which through this pandemic, through 00:03:25:13 00:03:27:11 COVID 19, 00:03:27:12 00:03:29:08 I think by masses, 00:03:29:09 00:03:31:10 we are consciously thinking a lot 00:03:31:11 00:03:32:11 more about 00:03:33:19 00:03:35:01 in some ways, actually not 00:03:35:02 00:03:37:00 everybody, but a lot of folks, 00:03:37:01 00:03:38:14 a lot of us are thinking about what 00:03:38:15 00:03:40:11 disability justice looks like, 00:03:40:12 00:03:42:08 could look like, especially under 00:03:42:09 00:03:44:09 an economy that does not care 00:03:44:10 00:03:45:16 about us, that does not have that 00:03:45:17 00:03:47:10 value of care for our people. 00:03:48:23 00:03:50:03 And I'm curious, through this 00:03:50:04 00:03:51:05 pandemic, what are some of the 00:03:51:06 00:03:53:10 notice things or observations you 00:03:53:11 00:03:55:08 have noted in how folks are 00:03:55:09 00:03:57:06 relating to, 00:03:57:07 00:03:58:25 you know, disability justice work or 00:03:59:00 00:04:00:16 even care work, right? 00:04:00:17 00:04:01:16 Mm hmm. 00:04:02:20 00:04:04:14 I want to caveat this by saying, 00:04:04:15 00:04:06:06 like, I still feel pretty new to 00:04:06:07 00:04:08:16 disability justice myself because 00:04:08:17 00:04:11:13 I was only introduced to it in 2017 00:04:11:14 00:04:13:11 through to Lila Lewis, 00:04:13:12 00:04:15:21 an incredible organizer, 00:04:15:22 00:04:17:20 abolitionist, the of 00:04:17:21 00:04:18:20 attorney. 00:04:20:00 00:04:22:00 And so I 00:04:22:01 00:04:23:21 haven't been in the disability 00:04:23:22 00:04:25:18 justice space as long 00:04:25:19 00:04:27:24 as as long as many other people. 00:04:29:02 00:04:30:20 But still, I notice that as it's 00:04:30:21 00:04:31:23 gotten popular. 00:04:33:23 00:04:35:12 I feel like it's gotten a little bit 00:04:35:13 00:04:37:17 depoliticized 00:04:37:18 00:04:39:21 and people keep confusing disability 00:04:39:22 00:04:42:02 justice with disability rights. 00:04:42:03 00:04:44:03 When disability justice is very 00:04:44:04 00:04:46:01 much about things 00:04:46:02 00:04:48:14 we can do outside of the law 00:04:48:15 00:04:50:12 and how we care for each other. 00:04:50:13 00:04:52:11 And there's, you know, very clear 00:04:52:12 00:04:53:17 12 principles 00:04:54:19 00:04:56:05 and a lot of people moving into 00:04:56:06 00:04:57:23 disability justice, I think. 00:04:59:17 00:05:01:08 What to interpret it 00:05:02:14 00:05:04:08 as the way that they need justice, 00:05:04:09 00:05:07:01 which is which is understandable. 00:05:07:02 00:05:08:24 But there's also very clear tenants 00:05:09:00 00:05:10:25 that have been set out already. 00:05:11:00 00:05:13:07 And so I think it's important to 00:05:13:08 00:05:14:22 when you start 00:05:16:01 00:05:17:20 learning about new movements, to 00:05:17:21 00:05:19:14 learn about, you know, the history 00:05:19:15 00:05:20:19 and the work that's already been 00:05:20:20 00:05:21:22 done in that space. 00:05:23:09 00:05:25:10 Not to say that like expanding 00:05:25:11 00:05:27:06 it is bad or anything, but just like 00:05:27:07 00:05:29:03 knowing where it's come 00:05:29:04 00:05:31:11 from, it's helpful for determining 00:05:31:12 00:05:32:19 where we move forward. 00:05:35:05 00:05:37:05 And particularly like disability 00:05:37:06 00:05:39:06 justice talks a lot about 00:05:39:07 00:05:41:08 leadership of the most impacted. 00:05:42:15 00:05:44:16 And this is something that I've 00:05:44:17 00:05:46:06 been a little concerned about. 00:05:47:15 00:05:49:08 I notice a lot of people have been 00:05:49:09 00:05:51:01 moving into disability justice, but 00:05:51:02 00:05:52:23 I've also noticed that a lot of the 00:05:52:24 00:05:53:24 most 00:05:55:14 00:05:57:16 vocal and prominent 00:05:57:17 00:06:00:08 people are not necessarily 00:06:00:09 00:06:01:19 the most impacted. 00:06:03:20 00:06:05:05 So can you. 00:06:05:06 00:06:06:11 Share a little bit more on that? 00:06:06:12 00:06:09:02 Because we know that's a tendency. 00:06:09:03 00:06:10:19 Yeah, a lot of movements. 00:06:10:20 00:06:11:25 Yeah. Yeah. 00:06:11:26 00:06:13:23 But I'm curious for you kind of 00:06:13:24 00:06:15:18 what what is your noticing 00:06:15:19 00:06:17:19 and. Yeah, maybe a little bit more 00:06:17:20 00:06:18:23 on that. 00:06:18:24 00:06:20:13 Of course. Yeah. 00:06:20:14 00:06:22:15 I will say that, like, I 00:06:22:16 00:06:24:06 wouldn't even consider myself. 00:06:25:18 00:06:26:20 I just start with me. 00:06:26:21 00:06:28:13 I think it's easier to talk about 00:06:28:14 00:06:29:25 yourself. 00:06:29:26 00:06:32:01 And I am a light skinned 00:06:32:02 00:06:33:01 East Asian. 00:06:34:03 00:06:36:13 And I was born in Taiwan. 00:06:36:14 00:06:38:16 And I am queer. 00:06:38:17 00:06:40:16 I'm gender fluid. 00:06:40:17 00:06:41:16 I'm disabled. 00:06:42:16 00:06:44:08 I have a lot of marginalization, but 00:06:44:09 00:06:46:03 that doesn't necessarily mean I'm 00:06:46:04 00:06:49:07 the most impacted systemically. 00:06:49:08 00:06:51:06 And so I'm like, should I 00:06:51:07 00:06:53:03 be a leader in disability justice? 00:06:53:04 00:06:54:12 You know, I'm happy to do my 00:06:54:13 00:06:56:05 projects, but 00:06:57:23 00:06:59:19 I feel like we should really be 00:06:59:20 00:07:01:21 mindful and. 00:07:03:04 00:07:05:05 Really be allowing 00:07:05:06 00:07:07:01 black disabled people 00:07:07:02 00:07:08:22 to take the lead in 00:07:08:23 00:07:10:15 disability justice and to really 00:07:10:16 00:07:11:16 move it forward. 00:07:11:17 00:07:13:17 And particularly something 00:07:13:18 00:07:15:05 that I know people don't necessarily 00:07:15:06 00:07:16:12 like to talk about is there's a lot 00:07:16:13 00:07:18:02 of colourism in the space. 00:07:19:19 00:07:20:19 And I'm like, it's 00:07:22:11 00:07:24:15 it's not just like 00:07:24:16 00:07:26:22 anybody. Black Being the leader 00:07:26:23 00:07:29:03 is good because as we know, 00:07:29:04 00:07:31:04 a lot of mainstream media 00:07:31:05 00:07:32:21 and a lot of society just tends to 00:07:32:22 00:07:34:22 favor light skinned folks. 00:07:34:23 00:07:36:13 And so I think it's important for us 00:07:36:14 00:07:37:14 to realize, like. 00:07:39:06 00:07:41:08 People experience different levels 00:07:41:09 00:07:43:05 of oppression, not only 00:07:43:06 00:07:45:12 on the racial level, but also 00:07:45:13 00:07:47:08 just on basis of skin 00:07:47:09 00:07:48:08 color. 00:07:50:05 00:07:52:00 And so I'm just like when you think 00:07:52:01 00:07:53:22 about who is the most 00:07:53:23 00:07:56:02 impacted by systemic oppressions 00:07:57:09 00:07:59:17 and the intersections of them? 00:07:59:18 00:08:01:15 Like, who would that be? 00:08:01:16 00:08:03:19 And asking yourself, Is it me? 00:08:03:20 00:08:04:23 I'm not saying that you shouldn't 00:08:04:24 00:08:06:19 work in the space, but 00:08:06:20 00:08:07:19 sometimes 00:08:08:19 00:08:10:17 I just get frustrated that 00:08:10:18 00:08:12:10 disability justice leaders who are 00:08:12:11 00:08:14:04 asked to speak at events are like 00:08:14:05 00:08:16:24 the same people over and over, 00:08:17:00 00:08:18:18 you know, and like the lighter 00:08:18:19 00:08:20:12 skinned of the folks, 00:08:22:02 00:08:24:03 you know? And I'm just like, 00:08:24:04 00:08:26:06 Hello, where 00:08:26:07 00:08:27:04 are all? 00:08:27:05 00:08:29:01 I know there are a lot of black 00:08:29:02 00:08:31:05 women, black, non-binary people, 00:08:31:06 00:08:33:13 black genderqueer people who like 00:08:33:14 00:08:35:10 have a lot of work that they've 00:08:35:11 00:08:37:10 done. And why are 00:08:37:11 00:08:38:14 they getting the mic, 00:08:39:17 00:08:40:22 so to speak, you know, 00:08:40:23 00:08:42:15 metaphorically or literally. 00:08:43:18 00:08:44:22 Yeah. Oof. 00:08:46:06 00:08:48:15 And it's, it's, it's a pattern 00:08:48:16 00:08:50:06 that like, you know, the 00:08:50:07 00:08:52:09 anti-blackness and the color is 00:08:52:10 00:08:54:15 like, is just so 00:08:55:18 00:08:56:14 persistent. 00:08:56:15 00:08:58:16 It is so blatant 00:08:58:17 00:09:00:11 and it's also so global. 00:09:00:12 00:09:02:08 And yeah, it's, it's really 00:09:02:09 00:09:03:20 frustrating to see the ways in which 00:09:03:21 00:09:06:10 it manifests itself, even in 00:09:06:11 00:09:07:16 our movements, right? 00:09:07:17 00:09:09:14 Even in the spaces that 00:09:09:15 00:09:10:25 want to center conversations of 00:09:11:00 00:09:12:21 justice and transformation 00:09:12:22 00:09:13:23 and healing. 00:09:15:01 00:09:16:11 But I appreciate you sort of like 00:09:16:12 00:09:18:07 grounding us in that, like, oh, this 00:09:18:08 00:09:19:19 is also reality. 00:09:19:20 00:09:21:01 This is also some shit we have to 00:09:21:02 00:09:22:03 contend with, right? 00:09:22:04 00:09:24:04 Like, you know, we don't get a pass 00:09:24:05 00:09:25:17 because we're talking about justice. 00:09:25:18 00:09:27:15 And I think sometimes folks kind 00:09:27:16 00:09:28:17 of want to feel that way, like, oh, 00:09:28:18 00:09:29:22 no, but I'm doing the good work. 00:09:29:23 00:09:32:01 It's like, yes. And like there's 00:09:32:02 00:09:33:24 many realities that can be true 00:09:33:25 00:09:35:22 at once. So thank 00:09:35:23 00:09:37:24 you for for grounding us in that. 00:09:39:18 00:09:41:03 Ellie, can you tell me a little bit 00:09:41:04 00:09:43:02 about I know you have like artistic 00:09:43:03 00:09:44:04 projects. I know you have your 00:09:44:05 00:09:45:12 organizational work. 00:09:45:13 00:09:47:10 Like, you know, can you sort 00:09:47:11 00:09:49:10 of like bring us to 00:09:49:11 00:09:51:12 all these different projects and, 00:09:51:13 00:09:53:08 you know, the ones that are sort of 00:09:53:09 00:09:54:24 consuming your time, I can imagine. 00:09:57:19 00:09:59:25 So my main thing 00:09:59:26 00:10:00:25 is 00:10:02:07 00:10:05:01 I do most things under 00:10:05:02 00:10:07:14 effect, which is umbrella 00:10:07:15 00:10:09:13 grassroots 00:10:09:14 00:10:11:09 sport, fiscally sponsored 00:10:11:10 00:10:12:09 project 00:10:13:07 00:10:16:00 that puts its emphasis on 00:10:16:01 00:10:17:17 creating resources for multiple 00:10:17:18 00:10:19:13 marginalized people and 00:10:19:14 00:10:21:07 embodying disability justice. 00:10:22:21 00:10:23:21 And those are just 00:10:24:21 00:10:26:17 very wordy ways of saying, 00:10:26:18 00:10:28:18 like, I want a project 00:10:28:19 00:10:31:02 in which I basically make no money. 00:10:31:03 00:10:32:24 And any money we collect, 00:10:33:00 00:10:34:20 we get to give to 00:10:35:21 00:10:38:04 other disabled bipoc or 00:10:38:05 00:10:39:22 multiple marginalized bipoc 00:10:41:04 00:10:43:03 because just paying people is super 00:10:43:04 00:10:44:03 important to me. 00:10:45:10 00:10:47:07 I think especially in this 00:10:47:08 00:10:48:19 country where 00:10:49:21 00:10:51:08 black people's labor has been taken 00:10:51:09 00:10:53:08 for granted, you know, I don't 00:10:53:09 00:10:55:11 I don't think I think free labor 00:10:55:12 00:10:57:18 is just overrated. 00:10:57:19 00:10:58:21 So I think it's 00:11:00:16 00:11:02:12 very important to just be able to 00:11:02:13 00:11:04:08 pay folks and affect is 00:11:04:09 00:11:05:21 the umbrella that I do it under. 00:11:06:22 00:11:08:19 So I have two projects that 00:11:08:20 00:11:11:11 are active right now under effect 00:11:11:12 00:11:12:10 one. 00:11:12:11 00:11:14:11 The newer one is the Community Care 00:11:14:12 00:11:16:15 Awards, which is hopefully 00:11:16:16 00:11:18:15 going to become an annual 00:11:18:16 00:11:21:00 award where we take nominations 00:11:21:01 00:11:22:23 from the community 00:11:22:24 00:11:25:01 for people local 00:11:25:02 00:11:26:17 to the Pacific Northwest 00:11:27:24 00:11:29:07 in the U.S. 00:11:29:08 00:11:30:06 just because of U.S. 00:11:30:07 00:11:32:01 nonprofit law, it's it's easier to 00:11:32:02 00:11:33:07 keep it within the country. 00:11:34:18 00:11:36:15 But we ask for nominations for 00:11:36:16 00:11:38:13 people basically in 00:11:38:14 00:11:40:14 Washington and Oregon 00:11:40:15 00:11:41:15 who have 00:11:42:12 00:11:44:14 been doing the work 00:11:44:15 00:11:46:11 of community 00:11:46:12 00:11:47:18 care. 00:11:47:19 00:11:49:16 And we try to give 00:11:49:17 00:11:51:19 them $500 just 00:11:51:20 00:11:53:16 as a tiny thank you 00:11:53:17 00:11:56:04 for and recognition 00:11:56:05 00:11:57:12 for everything that they've been 00:11:57:13 00:11:58:12 doing. 00:11:59:03 00:12:01:11 And we've only done it one time. 00:12:02:24 00:12:04:20 I'm hoping that it can become a 00:12:04:21 00:12:06:09 yearly thing. 00:12:06:10 00:12:08:17 Mm hmm. Yes. 00:12:08:18 00:12:10:19 Love that. I love a good celebratory 00:12:10:20 00:12:11:19 acknowledgment. 00:12:13:06 00:12:14:23 And then I was also learning a 00:12:14:24 00:12:17:01 little bit about your work, 00:12:17:02 00:12:19:00 holding down disabled in 00:12:19:01 00:12:20:24 here, which just seems like 00:12:21:00 00:12:23:05 such an expansive 00:12:23:06 00:12:25:23 and diverse sort of like 00:12:25:24 00:12:27:15 storytelling project. 00:12:27:16 00:12:29:13 And I'm also a Gemini, so any 00:12:29:14 00:12:31:02 time I'm like storytelling, 00:12:31:03 00:12:33:01 anything, I'm like, Yes, say more 00:12:34:05 00:12:35:04 so. 00:12:35:05 00:12:37:02 So tell 00:12:37:03 00:12:38:16 us a little bit about Disabled in 00:12:38:17 00:12:39:24 here. 00:12:40:00 00:12:41:05 I think even with the title, it's 00:12:41:06 00:12:43:03 very powerful and it's very clear 00:12:43:04 00:12:44:24 and sort of unapologetic is 00:12:45:00 00:12:46:01 like this is what it is. 00:12:47:17 00:12:49:14 But also curious to hear from your 00:12:49:15 00:12:51:10 own perspective, like, you 00:12:51:11 00:12:53:10 know, what drove you 00:12:53:11 00:12:55:05 to be like, okay, we're absolutely 00:12:55:06 00:12:57:15 missing. This is a gap. 00:12:57:16 00:13:00:07 And sort of how has it been 00:13:00:08 00:13:02:12 unfolding this project? 00:13:02:13 00:13:03:13 Yeah. 00:13:03:14 00:13:05:12 So disabled in here is affects main 00:13:05:13 00:13:07:20 project and it's 00:13:07:21 00:13:10:04 both a free stock image collection 00:13:10:05 00:13:11:14 and an interview series 00:13:13:11 00:13:15:01 because there's just so much out 00:13:15:02 00:13:16:18 there about disabled people. 00:13:18:04 00:13:19:23 But I should emphasize the word 00:13:19:24 00:13:21:19 about it's not so much 00:13:21:20 00:13:23:24 by disabled people 00:13:24:00 00:13:25:23 and even less when you look 00:13:25:24 00:13:27:24 at things by disabled, black 00:13:28:00 00:13:29:15 and brown folks. 00:13:29:16 00:13:31:13 So I really wanted a project that 00:13:31:14 00:13:33:12 really came from 00:13:33:13 00:13:34:12 us, 00:13:35:14 00:13:36:19 by and for us 00:13:37:21 00:13:39:24 in order to 00:13:40:00 00:13:41:19 more accurately portray 00:13:43:07 00:13:44:21 and celebrate, you know, the 00:13:44:22 00:13:46:12 realities of being 00:13:47:14 00:13:49:14 and also to sort of flip the script 00:13:49:15 00:13:51:12 into filling 00:13:51:13 00:13:54:06 up the space with stories of joy, 00:13:54:07 00:13:56:06 because so much of, like 00:13:56:07 00:13:57:21 any disability coverage is about 00:13:57:22 00:14:00:08 like, oh, trauma poured 00:14:00:09 00:14:02:04 IV over or inspiration 00:14:02:05 00:14:04:05 porn. I've overcome but 00:14:04:06 00:14:05:22 you know, I haven't overcome 00:14:05:23 00:14:08:13 anything. I'm disabled every day. 00:14:08:14 00:14:10:16 I continue to be disabled. 00:14:10:17 00:14:12:21 I probably personally 00:14:12:22 00:14:15:20 will become more disabled over time. 00:14:15:21 00:14:18:09 And that part does suck sometimes. 00:14:18:10 00:14:20:18 And other times, you know, 00:14:20:19 00:14:21:20 it's life. 00:14:21:21 00:14:22:20 You know, 00:14:23:22 00:14:25:13 everybody deals with different 00:14:25:14 00:14:26:13 things in their life. 00:14:29:01 00:14:31:01 Dealing with disability systemically 00:14:31:02 00:14:32:01 sucks a lot, 00:14:33:12 00:14:35:02 but there's just a lot of like 00:14:35:03 00:14:37:02 little moments every day that I felt 00:14:37:03 00:14:39:03 like people weren't 00:14:39:04 00:14:40:06 understanding 00:14:41:08 00:14:43:05 and I was thinking really hard 00:14:43:06 00:14:45:14 about like, how could I convey 00:14:48:03 00:14:50:10 more about, I guess, disabled 00:14:50:11 00:14:52:08 life and disabled black and 00:14:52:09 00:14:55:06 brown lives, particularly 00:14:55:07 00:14:57:12 with a focus on 00:14:57:13 00:14:59:13 collaborating with like 00:14:59:14 00:15:00:17 queer folks, 00:15:02:05 00:15:04:08 fat people, and I mean fat as a 00:15:04:09 00:15:06:12 neutral descriptor, not an insult. 00:15:08:06 00:15:10:08 And, you know, darker 00:15:10:09 00:15:13:10 skinned folks who don't necessarily 00:15:13:11 00:15:14:15 get to 00:15:16:18 00:15:18:17 be front and center. 00:15:18:18 00:15:19:20 And so I was thinking about a 00:15:19:21 00:15:22:07 project that could really celebrate 00:15:24:10 00:15:26:04 a bunch of different types of 00:15:26:05 00:15:27:23 disabled people of color. 00:15:27:24 00:15:30:21 And I came up with disabled in here. 00:15:30:22 00:15:32:13 And initially it started as just 00:15:32:14 00:15:33:23 like stock photos, 00:15:35:18 00:15:37:15 just because I think the 00:15:37:16 00:15:39:11 photos are just such strong 00:15:39:12 00:15:40:12 visual impact. 00:15:42:07 00:15:43:22 And I love the idea of being able to 00:15:43:23 00:15:45:12 capture people as they are with 00:15:45:13 00:15:47:16 their own mobility aids or, 00:15:47:17 00:15:48:16 you know. 00:15:50:07 00:15:52:05 Whatever. 00:15:52:06 00:15:54:06 Disability devices, accessibility 00:15:54:07 00:15:55:11 devices they have. 00:15:55:12 00:15:57:20 I thought I was like, Bring it all. 00:15:57:21 00:15:59:17 We want to capture you and 00:15:59:18 00:16:01:14 your full glory. 00:16:01:15 00:16:03:09 You know, and I very 00:16:03:10 00:16:05:05 much want to collaborate 00:16:05:06 00:16:07:02 with people as much as they want to 00:16:07:03 00:16:09:22 collaborate in terms of like 00:16:09:23 00:16:11:25 when we 00:16:11:26 00:16:14:09 work with different models, 00:16:14:10 00:16:16:03 so to speak, because folks aren't 00:16:16:04 00:16:17:22 professional models are very much 00:16:17:23 00:16:19:14 like, Hey, is there anything that 00:16:19:15 00:16:21:11 you particularly want to shoot? 00:16:21:12 00:16:22:16 Is there something that you want to 00:16:22:17 00:16:23:10 get across? 00:16:23:11 00:16:24:16 Like, what do you do? 00:16:24:17 00:16:25:19 What do you want these pictures to 00:16:25:20 00:16:26:25 say? 00:16:26:26 00:16:28:12 And sometimes people have a lot they 00:16:28:13 00:16:29:19 want to contribute and sometimes 00:16:29:20 00:16:31:11 they have less. 00:16:31:12 00:16:33:03 And, you know, I want to make it 00:16:33:04 00:16:34:17 flexible so that, like, I'm not 00:16:34:18 00:16:36:10 asking you for a whole bunch of we 00:16:36:11 00:16:38:03 do pay these folks so it's not free 00:16:38:04 00:16:40:13 work. But I don't want to 00:16:40:14 00:16:42:14 like burden people if 00:16:42:15 00:16:43:20 they don't want to think about that 00:16:43:21 00:16:45:06 kind of thing. But I also want to 00:16:45:07 00:16:46:14 give them the freedom to really 00:16:46:15 00:16:47:25 express themselves further. 00:16:50:15 00:16:52:12 So having 00:16:52:13 00:16:53:12 people. 00:16:54:13 00:16:55:19 Being in charge of their own 00:16:55:20 00:16:57:12 narratives, I think is just so 00:16:57:13 00:16:58:13 powerful. 00:17:00:05 00:17:01:21 Oh, absolutely. 00:17:01:22 00:17:04:12 And it's really beautiful to hear 00:17:04:13 00:17:06:03 how even like sort of behind the 00:17:06:04 00:17:07:24 scenes, like, you know, beyond 00:17:07:25 00:17:10:09 the image that the world sees, 00:17:10:10 00:17:12:13 it's just really collaborative 00:17:12:14 00:17:15:10 and really like agency affirming 00:17:15:11 00:17:17:14 process. Like that's just really a 00:17:17:15 00:17:19:12 beautiful reminder of how, 00:17:19:13 00:17:20:20 you know, how it should be, right? 00:17:20:21 00:17:22:19 Like what actually feels good. 00:17:22:20 00:17:24:15 And, you know, hearing you sort 00:17:24:16 00:17:26:14 of reflect 00:17:26:15 00:17:28:12 through this process, it's 00:17:28:13 00:17:30:18 been making me think a lot more. 00:17:30:19 00:17:33:06 And I'm curious what your opinion is 00:17:33:07 00:17:35:08 of like how there is increasing 00:17:35:09 00:17:37:18 visibility of disabled 00:17:37:19 00:17:40:02 folks in sort of like, 00:17:40:03 00:17:42:09 you know, major brands campaigns. 00:17:42:10 00:17:43:09 Right. 00:17:43:19 00:17:46:12 Yet like Savage Fenty or, 00:17:46:13 00:17:48:04 you know, all these that are Nike, 00:17:48:05 00:17:49:21 like all these different folks. 00:17:49:22 00:17:51:07 And we know that especially after 00:17:51:08 00:17:53:03 2020, a 00:17:53:04 00:17:54:18 lot of brands and marketing groups 00:17:54:19 00:17:56:10 have, you know, caught on to the 00:17:56:11 00:17:58:06 fact that like, oh, all of 00:17:58:07 00:18:00:01 these groups exist and they're here, 00:18:00:02 00:18:01:06 like, to your point, disabled in 00:18:01:07 00:18:02:02 here. 00:18:02:03 00:18:04:02 And for them, 00:18:04:03 00:18:05:18 you know, it seems like a great 00:18:05:19 00:18:07:15 marketing strategy. 00:18:07:16 00:18:09:16 But I also there's something 00:18:09:17 00:18:11:11 in my body that responds so 00:18:11:12 00:18:13:22 warmly when I do see 00:18:13:23 00:18:15:17 fat folks, when I see more black and 00:18:15:18 00:18:17:10 brown bodies, when I see disabled 00:18:17:11 00:18:19:12 folks, when I see queer folks 00:18:19:13 00:18:21:04 like in these campaigns. 00:18:21:05 00:18:22:12 And I also want to like challenge 00:18:22:13 00:18:24:02 myself, like, okay, what are the 00:18:24:03 00:18:25:24 limits of representation? 00:18:25:25 00:18:27:23 And like, can we allow ourselves 00:18:27:24 00:18:29:15 to just be like, oh, this is iconic? 00:18:29:16 00:18:31:14 Like, yes, but I'm curious 00:18:31:15 00:18:33:10 kind of like how you're 00:18:33:11 00:18:35:11 making sense of this 00:18:35:12 00:18:38:02 sort of increasing visibility 00:18:38:03 00:18:39:03 for disabled folks. 00:18:40:07 00:18:42:02 I'm not 00:18:42:03 00:18:43:13 going to be unhappy with more 00:18:43:14 00:18:45:13 visibility, but I think it is 00:18:45:14 00:18:47:13 an important question to ask, 00:18:47:14 00:18:49:11 like who is 00:18:49:12 00:18:51:08 in charge of these images? 00:18:51:09 00:18:53:20 Who is driving the perspective? 00:18:53:21 00:18:55:07 You know, who are we actually 00:18:55:08 00:18:57:01 centering? 00:18:57:02 00:18:59:08 Just because someone 00:18:59:09 00:19:01:03 is part of a campaign, does this 00:19:01:04 00:19:02:14 mean this campaign actually 00:19:02:15 00:19:04:24 accurately reflects them? 00:19:05:00 00:19:06:11 You know, like. 00:19:07:24 00:19:10:06 And ultimately, who is the audience, 00:19:10:07 00:19:11:04 too? 00:19:11:05 00:19:12:18 Because when big brands do it, you 00:19:12:19 00:19:14:24 know, they are not actually 00:19:15:00 00:19:17:09 necessarily marketing to 00:19:17:10 00:19:18:09 disabled people. 00:19:18:10 00:19:20:14 I find that a lot of times disabled 00:19:20:15 00:19:22:22 marketing is actually marketed at 00:19:22:23 00:19:24:13 non-disabled people because it's 00:19:24:14 00:19:26:09 more like, look how good we 00:19:26:10 00:19:27:25 are. We are a great company. 00:19:28:00 00:19:29:21 Therefore, give us your money. 00:19:29:22 00:19:32:01 Mm hmm. 00:19:32:02 00:19:33:02 Yes. 00:19:33:03 00:19:35:00 Yeah. It's like it sort 00:19:35:01 00:19:37:05 of reinforces the feel good 00:19:37:06 00:19:39:02 for mostly, like, non marginalized 00:19:39:03 00:19:39:22 people. 00:19:39:23 00:19:40:21 Yeah. 00:19:40:22 00:19:42:08 Like, I can imagine a lot of white 00:19:42:09 00:19:43:13 folks being like, oh, yeah. 00:19:43:14 00:19:45:08 Like, this brand is progressive, 00:19:45:09 00:19:47:10 cause, like, look at this campaign. 00:19:47:11 00:19:49:08 And I think those are one of the one 00:19:49:09 00:19:51:11 of those several sort of concerns 00:19:51:12 00:19:53:14 I have with like, hmm, 00:19:53:15 00:19:55:07 what happens if we get overly 00:19:55:08 00:19:57:14 satisfied with just representation? 00:19:59:04 00:20:00:20 And I really appreciate what you're 00:20:00:21 00:20:02:06 bringing up around like. 00:20:02:07 00:20:04:03 Yeah. Who, what are the intentions 00:20:04:04 00:20:06:02 of this? And also even like behind 00:20:06:03 00:20:07:21 the scenes, like how much creative 00:20:07:22 00:20:09:21 direction and narrative control 00:20:09:22 00:20:11:15 do these individual folks hold? 00:20:12:24 00:20:14:08 Which is, I think is a really, 00:20:14:09 00:20:15:17 really important question 00:20:17:04 00:20:18:09 because yeah, I think most of the 00:20:18:10 00:20:19:22 times we know, even if someone's, 00:20:19:23 00:20:21:24 like, modeling something, it's like 00:20:22:00 00:20:23:06 you are. 00:20:23:07 00:20:24:11 Yeah. Like, there's so many things 00:20:24:12 00:20:26:05 have already been set up for you and 00:20:26:06 00:20:27:09 you're kind of there, like, just to 00:20:27:10 00:20:29:09 be the face or the body 00:20:29:10 00:20:32:01 or whatever, like, you know. 00:20:32:02 00:20:33:15 Who are you even allowed to say? 00:20:33:16 00:20:35:07 No. Like if you disagree with 00:20:35:08 00:20:36:21 something. 00:20:36:22 00:20:38:22 If you showed up at Rihanna's, 00:20:38:23 00:20:40:14 you know, Fenty shoot. 00:20:40:15 00:20:42:03 Would you ever feel comfortable 00:20:42:04 00:20:43:25 enough to be like, I'm sorry, 00:20:44:00 00:20:45:24 I don't want to do this? 00:20:47:08 00:20:48:15 And this is just something I want to 00:20:48:16 00:20:50:13 encourage is like encourage giving 00:20:50:14 00:20:52:08 people the option and the 00:20:52:09 00:20:54:04 opportunity to say no to you. 00:20:55:09 00:20:56:23 You know, cultivate 00:20:59:00 00:21:01:07 your ability to hear 00:21:01:08 00:21:02:20 and accept a no 00:21:03:22 00:21:04:22 that. 00:21:06:00 00:21:07:22 I'm I'm so glad you mentioned that, 00:21:07:23 00:21:09:20 because I think 00:21:09:21 00:21:11:24 there's been times where I 00:21:12:00 00:21:13:21 have even like even 00:21:13:22 00:21:15:13 myself, I haven't felt the most 00:21:15:14 00:21:17:11 empowered and in my agency to do 00:21:17:12 00:21:18:03 that. 00:21:18:04 00:21:18:11 Mm hmm. 00:21:18:12 00:21:19:19 You know, I did. 00:21:19:20 00:21:21:01 It's also complicated because they 00:21:21:02 00:21:22:10 make so many of these brands, make 00:21:22:11 00:21:24:07 you sign NDAs and stuff like as 00:21:24:08 00:21:26:07 legal protections, even across 00:21:26:08 00:21:27:07 these things, and 00:21:28:14 00:21:30:17 sort of reinforcing secrecy, 00:21:30:18 00:21:31:15 you know? 00:21:31:16 00:21:33:05 Right. You know, like even now, I'm 00:21:33:06 00:21:34:19 like, I can't I don't think I can 00:21:34:20 00:21:36:15 say what TV show or 00:21:36:16 00:21:37:15 what what this was for. 00:21:37:16 00:21:39:11 But yeah, 00:21:39:12 00:21:41:11 some time ago, maybe sometime 00:21:41:12 00:21:43:13 last year, I was doing 00:21:43:14 00:21:45:09 like an episode, you know, on 00:21:45:10 00:21:47:06 like, like a, a new TV 00:21:47:07 00:21:49:05 show and they made 00:21:49:06 00:21:50:24 us like play this game that was like 00:21:51:00 00:21:52:14 really uncomfortable and it was kind 00:21:52:15 00:21:54:05 of like problematic statements and 00:21:54:06 00:21:56:01 was kind of like responding 00:21:56:02 00:21:56:23 like, problematic. 00:21:56:24 00:21:57:23 Tweets. 00:21:57:24 00:21:59:19 And us responding, 00:21:59:20 00:22:01:15 and it was like it was 00:22:01:16 00:22:02:20 so uncomfortable. 00:22:04:04 00:22:05:21 It was just really uncomfortable. 00:22:05:22 00:22:07:21 And, you know, it 00:22:07:22 00:22:10:03 was bizarre because, you know, 00:22:10:04 00:22:12:04 there's like so many people on set. 00:22:12:05 00:22:13:24 There's like 15, 20 people 00:22:13:25 00:22:15:14 behind like behind that camera. 00:22:15:15 00:22:16:24 You have lights on you. 00:22:17:00 00:22:18:16 And I can personally say in that 00:22:18:17 00:22:20:12 moment, I wasn't necessarily I 00:22:20:13 00:22:22:18 knew in my body I could feel 00:22:22:19 00:22:24:07 like automatically speaking my body 00:22:24:08 00:22:26:25 was like, this is not okay. 00:22:27:00 00:22:28:14 You know, like you are now like part 00:22:28:15 00:22:30:07 of this almost like problematic 00:22:30:08 00:22:31:07 jeopardy. 00:22:32:22 00:22:33:24 And I was in them. 00:22:34:00 00:22:35:18 I didn't really know how to navigate 00:22:35:19 00:22:38:02 that situation until 00:22:38:03 00:22:39:13 we sort of asked the producers, 00:22:39:14 00:22:42:09 like, Can we pause this? 00:22:42:10 00:22:43:18 We're like, That was really weird. 00:22:43:19 00:22:45:18 Like, that doesn't feel good. 00:22:45:19 00:22:47:23 Like, I don't want to partake 00:22:47:24 00:22:49:02 in this. And it was kind of, you 00:22:49:03 00:22:50:23 know, it was a tension. 00:22:50:24 00:22:52:24 So, you know, even just hearing 00:22:52:25 00:22:54:24 you, Ali, like ask 00:22:55:00 00:22:56:11 these questions like point, this is 00:22:56:12 00:22:57:09 like, oh, shit. Like, you're 00:22:57:10 00:22:58:10 bringing up some stuff for me. 00:22:58:11 00:23:00:06 I'm like, oh, you know, 00:23:00:07 00:23:01:20 it's like sometimes we don't feel 00:23:01:21 00:23:02:25 like we're in our agency to ask 00:23:03:00 00:23:04:06 that. And I can only imagine, you 00:23:04:07 00:23:06:13 know, this was like a, an emerging 00:23:06:14 00:23:07:07 show. 00:23:07:08 00:23:08:23 I cannot imagine doing that in a 00:23:08:24 00:23:11:06 major brand set, 00:23:11:07 00:23:12:13 you know, and I think we're sort of 00:23:12:14 00:23:14:10 told to just be grateful 00:23:14:11 00:23:16:04 that, like, we're the ones that, you 00:23:16:05 00:23:17:18 know, the select few that made it 00:23:17:19 00:23:19:18 into these spaces. 00:23:19:19 00:23:21:14 Yeah. And you know, some of that 00:23:21:15 00:23:23:16 fear and tension is totally legit 00:23:23:17 00:23:25:18 because there are actual industry 00:23:25:19 00:23:27:16 consequences. 00:23:27:17 00:23:29:07 A lot of the times if you try to 00:23:29:08 00:23:31:08 assert your your rights at your 00:23:31:09 00:23:32:08 agency. 00:23:33:14 00:23:35:09 And so when 00:23:35:10 00:23:37:06 I work, I try to be very mindful 00:23:37:07 00:23:39:07 of like different power dynamics 00:23:39:08 00:23:40:07 and to 00:23:41:09 00:23:43:09 never surprise people with things 00:23:43:10 00:23:44:13 that are happening as much as 00:23:44:14 00:23:45:12 possible. 00:23:45:13 00:23:47:11 Obviously, you can't like 00:23:47:12 00:23:48:25 I'm such a control freak. 00:23:48:26 00:23:50:24 I love I love being 00:23:51:00 00:23:52:06 able to plan things. 00:23:52:07 00:23:53:20 But I also know that, you know, 00:23:53:21 00:23:55:16 things happen, things 00:23:55:17 00:23:57:13 I think you you can't literally 00:23:57:14 00:23:59:11 plan out your whole life, 00:23:59:12 00:24:00:23 you know. 00:24:00:24 00:24:02:22 But that's why I tried to build 00:24:02:23 00:24:04:19 in any time I 00:24:04:20 00:24:05:23 put anything together. 00:24:05:24 00:24:07:11 There's like a lot of breaks built 00:24:07:12 00:24:09:07 in, a lot of check ins just 00:24:09:08 00:24:11:17 to be like, How are you feeling? 00:24:11:18 00:24:13:15 Is this good? 00:24:13:16 00:24:14:19 Did you want to stop? 00:24:14:20 00:24:15:20 Are you okay? 00:24:16:20 00:24:17:20 And I just like. 00:24:18:23 00:24:20:20 I think it also helps when you just 00:24:20:21 00:24:21:20 like. 00:24:22:19 00:24:24:18 Tell people, you know, 00:24:24:19 00:24:27:05 I'm here for you and ultimately, 00:24:27:06 00:24:29:05 like is 00:24:29:06 00:24:31:02 disabled in here a good project if 00:24:31:03 00:24:32:20 it if our participants don't feel 00:24:32:21 00:24:34:13 good when they're part of it, you 00:24:34:14 00:24:36:14 know, like I 00:24:36:15 00:24:37:19 think there's all these parts of 00:24:37:20 00:24:39:14 like what makes a project good 00:24:39:15 00:24:40:15 and powerful 00:24:41:22 00:24:43:13 and what makes it. 00:24:45:08 00:24:46:09 Successful 00:24:47:15 00:24:49:17 publicly versus like successful 00:24:49:18 00:24:50:22 to you as a person. 00:24:50:23 00:24:53:02 And to me, my projects are 00:24:53:03 00:24:54:24 only as successful 00:24:55:00 00:24:57:04 as the people who 00:24:57:05 00:24:59:04 who participate in 00:24:59:05 00:25:01:01 it and, you know, get to see it, 00:25:01:02 00:25:02:08 you know. So yeah. 00:25:04:15 00:25:06:12 Like from, 00:25:06:13 00:25:08:04 I don't know, certain standards 00:25:08:05 00:25:09:18 people might say disabled and hear 00:25:09:19 00:25:11:14 successful cause like, you know, 00:25:11:15 00:25:13:12 the ADA uses are images on 00:25:13:13 00:25:15:18 their website, their new website 00:25:15:19 00:25:17:16 and like the BBC has used us 00:25:17:17 00:25:19:08 and disability rights organizations 00:25:19:09 00:25:21:03 use us and like to me 00:25:21:04 00:25:23:08 I'm like the most successful 00:25:23:09 00:25:24:24 parts of that. Like I got to pay 00:25:25:00 00:25:26:23 people and I got 00:25:26:24 00:25:28:19 to work with so 00:25:28:20 00:25:30:24 many disabled illustrators that 00:25:32:04 00:25:34:02 were so surprised 00:25:34:03 00:25:35:10 when they're like, Can I do this? 00:25:35:11 00:25:36:18 And I'm like, Why can't you? 00:25:37:20 00:25:39:16 What? Why can't you do this 00:25:39:17 00:25:40:16 thing? 00:25:41:14 00:25:43:07 I just try to show up and be 00:25:43:08 00:25:44:12 supportive. 00:25:44:13 00:25:46:08 I'm not saying I'm perfect or 00:25:46:09 00:25:48:08 I'm definitely 00:25:48:09 00:25:50:23 a very flawed human being, 00:25:50:24 00:25:52:22 but I just I very much want to be 00:25:52:23 00:25:54:14 mindful that we're all humans and 00:25:54:15 00:25:55:14 like. 00:25:55:24 00:25:58:01 To me, respect means 00:25:58:02 00:25:59:16 like treating each other as fellow 00:25:59:17 00:26:01:13 humans with care. 00:26:01:14 00:26:02:13 Yes. 00:26:02:14 00:26:03:18 It's funny because it's like 00:26:05:09 00:26:08:10 such a simple task. 00:26:08:11 00:26:10:10 But I know in this in 00:26:10:11 00:26:12:02 this economy and the society, it 00:26:12:03 00:26:14:17 feels it feels like such a task 00:26:14:18 00:26:16:04 to ask people, like, can you just 00:26:16:05 00:26:17:21 treat me with the respect and like 00:26:17:22 00:26:19:20 mutuality and reciprocity? 00:26:21:22 00:26:24:10 You know, and that makes me think 00:26:24:11 00:26:25:22 a little bit about and we were 00:26:25:23 00:26:27:21 chatting a tiny bit about this 00:26:27:22 00:26:30:09 before we started recording, but 00:26:30:10 00:26:32:09 the sort of like mainstream ploy 00:26:32:10 00:26:35:09 of like return to normal, 00:26:35:10 00:26:36:17 we are post-pandemic. 00:26:36:18 00:26:38:21 Y'all like war is over. 00:26:38:22 00:26:39:22 Get over it. 00:26:41:02 00:26:42:21 How are you making sense of this? 00:26:42:22 00:26:44:08 Because everybody I know is 00:26:44:09 00:26:45:08 exhausted, 00:26:46:12 00:26:48:10 deeply anxious and 00:26:48:11 00:26:50:06 feels very far from quote 00:26:50:07 00:26:51:10 unquote, things are normal. 00:26:51:11 00:26:53:08 But, yeah, how are you making 00:26:53:09 00:26:54:12 sense of this? 00:26:54:13 00:26:56:07 BUSH It's just a 00:26:56:08 00:26:58:10 it feels like a 00:26:58:11 00:27:00:07 nationwide and maybe even 00:27:00:08 00:27:02:13 international campaign 00:27:02:14 00:27:04:11 of gaslighting, really, 00:27:04:12 00:27:06:03 where everyone's buying into this 00:27:06:04 00:27:07:22 fictional version of reality. 00:27:07:23 00:27:09:09 First of all, the pandemic is still 00:27:09:10 00:27:11:01 going. We constantly have new 00:27:11:02 00:27:12:10 variants develop. 00:27:12:11 00:27:13:19 So I'm confused. 00:27:13:20 00:27:15:25 What do you mean by post? 00:27:17:23 00:27:19:16 Is your definition of post that you 00:27:19:17 00:27:20:20 just don't want to deal with it 00:27:20:21 00:27:21:24 anymore? 00:27:22:00 00:27:23:16 Because that's not typically what 00:27:23:17 00:27:25:12 post-pandemic means. 00:27:26:23 00:27:28:20 So you're like, okay, this is 00:27:28:21 00:27:30:03 this is an interesting form of 00:27:30:04 00:27:31:04 wishful thinking. 00:27:33:11 00:27:35:07 And it's just also weird 00:27:35:08 00:27:37:00 where people keep wanting to return 00:27:37:01 00:27:38:16 to normal and you're just like, 00:27:38:17 00:27:39:16 okay. 00:27:41:13 00:27:44:00 There's kind of no more normal, 00:27:44:01 00:27:46:01 like the pandemic is here. 00:27:46:02 00:27:47:24 People have died. 00:27:48:00 00:27:49:18 It's kind of rude for you to tell 00:27:49:19 00:27:51:11 me. Return to normal. 00:27:52:21 00:27:54:19 And furthermore, like, what is 00:27:54:20 00:27:56:17 your definition of normal? 00:27:56:18 00:27:57:20 Was it ever good? 00:27:57:21 00:27:58:21 Like, who was normal? 00:27:58:22 00:27:59:25 Good for. 00:28:00:00 00:28:01:03 Yeah, obviously good for 00:28:01:04 00:28:02:17 corporations, I guess, because, you 00:28:02:18 00:28:04:19 know, everybody gets to 00:28:06:10 00:28:08:09 really work super, super 00:28:08:10 00:28:10:12 hard to be a productive, 00:28:10:13 00:28:12:07 functional human in society 00:28:12:08 00:28:14:01 and make more money for other 00:28:14:02 00:28:16:04 people, not necessarily yourself, 00:28:16:05 00:28:17:20 but you get to make money for the 00:28:17:21 00:28:20:11 corporations and for the economy. 00:28:20:12 00:28:21:12 And 00:28:22:10 00:28:24:17 you know, too and you 00:28:24:18 00:28:26:01 for all that, I guess you get the 00:28:26:02 00:28:28:04 benefit of covering some bills, 00:28:28:05 00:28:31:07 hurray, covering some bills 00:28:31:08 00:28:33:16 and filling in the gaps that 00:28:33:17 00:28:36:02 I personally feel like 00:28:36:03 00:28:37:17 the government should be caring for 00:28:37:18 00:28:38:17 more. 00:28:39:13 00:28:40:16 Yes. 00:28:40:17 00:28:41:20 I mean, it's so wild. 00:28:41:21 00:28:43:18 Like, I I'm going to go 00:28:43:19 00:28:45:10 get tested later. 00:28:45:11 00:28:47:02 And my partner was sort of asking me 00:28:47:03 00:28:48:18 like, okay, what do you like? 00:28:48:19 00:28:50:13 Do you think that wants to open the 00:28:50:14 00:28:51:21 testing site? 00:28:51:22 00:28:52:24 Because, you know, everyone's 00:28:52:25 00:28:55:12 reading about how, 00:28:55:13 00:28:57:01 you know, the government is choosing 00:28:57:02 00:28:59:00 to sort of clock out, clock out 00:28:59:01 00:29:01:18 the funding in significant ways. 00:29:01:19 00:29:03:09 And here in Florida, I mean, I live 00:29:03:10 00:29:05:03 in Florida, you know, has been such 00:29:05:04 00:29:07:01 a you know, such 00:29:07:02 00:29:09:01 a place of topic and 00:29:09:02 00:29:10:23 debate in this country during this 00:29:10:24 00:29:12:16 whole pandemic, during this past two 00:29:12:17 00:29:13:10 years. 00:29:13:11 00:29:15:06 And yeah, I was like, 00:29:15:07 00:29:16:02 oh, wait, good question. 00:29:16:03 00:29:17:11 Yeah, I have to actually check. 00:29:17:12 00:29:19:05 And like, that made me that got me 00:29:19:06 00:29:21:04 so upset, honestly, that 00:29:21:05 00:29:22:18 I'm like, Oh yeah, these people just 00:29:22:19 00:29:23:25 think like, just kidding. 00:29:24:00 00:29:25:05 It's cool. 00:29:25:06 00:29:26:14 Close the testing sites. 00:29:26:15 00:29:28:12 We're cutting the funding. 00:29:28:13 00:29:30:10 It's I think, to your point, 00:29:30:11 00:29:30:21 it's. 00:29:30:22 00:29:32:01 Rude. 00:29:32:02 00:29:33:22 And it's just really dehumanizing. 00:29:33:23 00:29:36:04 And it is gaslighting because, 00:29:36:05 00:29:37:15 you know, I was going to 00:29:38:19 00:29:41:05 like host the friend who 00:29:41:06 00:29:43:17 has moved away and is here in Miami 00:29:43:18 00:29:45:15 and they were exposed 00:29:45:16 00:29:47:13 to COVID. And I'm like, okay, 00:29:47:14 00:29:49:03 yeah. Like we're very much so in 00:29:49:04 00:29:50:20 this, you know, like I work with 00:29:50:21 00:29:52:18 young people in 00:29:52:19 00:29:54:01 a place where there's no mask 00:29:54:02 00:29:55:12 mandate in schools, right? 00:29:55:13 00:29:58:15 So you're in classrooms with like 35 00:29:58:16 00:30:00:14 other people, if not more, 00:30:00:15 00:30:01:24 with no mask mandate, right? 00:30:02:00 00:30:03:20 So it's like, again, falls 00:30:03:21 00:30:05:11 on the quote unquote, individual 00:30:05:12 00:30:07:14 responsibility on people 00:30:07:15 00:30:09:13 to a firm 00:30:09:14 00:30:10:19 care. 00:30:10:20 00:30:11:23 And I think that's something that's 00:30:11:24 00:30:13:21 been really hurtful 00:30:13:22 00:30:16:05 to see unfold that 00:30:16:06 00:30:18:16 this government has and corporations 00:30:18:17 00:30:20:03 and all the people in power have 00:30:20:04 00:30:21:25 used the pandemic 00:30:21:26 00:30:24:01 to reinforce 00:30:24:02 00:30:26:01 hyper individualistic ideas 00:30:26:02 00:30:27:06 of care. 00:30:27:07 00:30:28:15 And it's like, wow. 00:30:28:16 00:30:29:10 Y'all, y'all. 00:30:29:11 00:30:31:10 Would use a pandemic to, like, serve 00:30:31:11 00:30:33:07 yourselves in that way. 00:30:35:02 00:30:35:25 But yeah, I'm curious for you, 00:30:36:00 00:30:37:09 Ellie. Like, how are you? 00:30:37:10 00:30:38:10 How have you even been thinking 00:30:38:11 00:30:40:13 about care a little bit differently 00:30:41:14 00:30:43:06 through the pandemic, you know? 00:30:44:23 00:30:46:18 If I can return to what you were 00:30:46:19 00:30:48:14 just saying about 00:30:48:15 00:30:50:19 the emphasis on individualism, too, 00:30:50:20 00:30:52:04 I also think that's funny just 00:30:52:05 00:30:54:04 because, like we heard 00:30:54:05 00:30:56:09 that easyJet, the airline 00:30:56:10 00:30:58:09 lifted the no mask mandate and oh, 00:30:58:10 00:31:00:05 no, they thought this would 00:31:00:06 00:31:01:16 benefit them to push it on to 00:31:01:17 00:31:02:15 individual folks. 00:31:02:16 00:31:04:03 But they found out that it meant 00:31:04:04 00:31:05:25 their staff just had to 00:31:06:00 00:31:07:12 call out because so many of them 00:31:07:13 00:31:09:11 were down with COVID 00:31:09:12 00:31:10:23 that they had to cancel flights. 00:31:10:24 00:31:12:08 So I'm like. It doesn't even make 00:31:12:09 00:31:15:10 sense from a money standpoint. 00:31:15:11 00:31:18:05 I'm confused because 00:31:18:06 00:31:20:05 I mean, I'm not confused because 00:31:20:06 00:31:22:11 this is sort of what I expect, but 00:31:22:12 00:31:24:11 also like it does, it makes 00:31:24:12 00:31:26:13 sense monetarily in 00:31:26:14 00:31:28:15 the longer term. 00:31:28:16 00:31:30:15 So what kind of like really limited 00:31:30:16 00:31:32:17 short term thinking is going 00:31:32:18 00:31:34:16 on where you think if you just 00:31:34:17 00:31:36:16 push on to individuals, your company 00:31:36:17 00:31:38:08 is made up of individuals. 00:31:39:23 00:31:41:08 What do you think is going to happen 00:31:41:09 00:31:43:01 when so many people just get sick? 00:31:43:02 00:31:45:02 And before 00:31:45:03 00:31:46:06 we started recording, you were 00:31:46:07 00:31:48:01 talking about this 00:31:48:02 00:31:50:23 being a mass disabling event. 00:31:50:24 00:31:52:21 And I just think that's very much 00:31:52:22 00:31:54:22 true. We just don't know much about 00:31:54:23 00:31:56:21 Long-Covid as a chronic illness. 00:31:58:10 00:31:59:18 And, you know. 00:32:00:20 00:32:02:10 Patients are constantly not being 00:32:02:11 00:32:04:07 believed. And there's also 00:32:04:08 00:32:06:01 all this emphasis in media about 00:32:06:02 00:32:08:10 so-called mild COVID. 00:32:08:11 00:32:09:24 And people get confused about what 00:32:10:00 00:32:11:16 that means because they think mild. 00:32:11:17 00:32:13:04 COVID means mild. 00:32:13:05 00:32:15:04 Like an 00:32:15:05 00:32:17:01 obvious jump to go to. 00:32:17:02 00:32:18:19 But like mild, COVID just means you 00:32:18:20 00:32:20:02 don't end up in the hospital. 00:32:20:03 00:32:21:22 You know, it doesn't actually mean 00:32:21:23 00:32:23:15 that you. It doesn't even mean that 00:32:23:16 00:32:25:13 you can recover 100% from 00:32:25:14 00:32:27:06 COVID, because a lot of people with 00:32:27:07 00:32:28:20 so-called mild COVID end up with 00:32:28:21 00:32:31:01 long COVID and are like, Oh, no, 00:32:31:02 00:32:32:20 I can't climb stairs anymore. 00:32:32:21 00:32:34:22 I can't breathe properly 00:32:34:23 00:32:36:06 when I try to do anything. 00:32:38:12 00:32:39:13 And it's just 00:32:41:01 00:32:42:20 I, I'm like, what is the word I'm 00:32:42:21 00:32:44:06 looking for? I don't know. 00:32:44:07 00:32:45:21 I just maybe instead of words, I'm 00:32:45:22 00:32:47:21 just going to do an exhausted sigh 00:32:49:11 00:32:50:11 just a little. 00:32:56:19 00:32:57:24 Sorry. Can you remind me your 00:32:58:00 00:33:00:02 question about care 00:33:00:03 00:33:00:14 that you are. 00:33:00:15 00:33:01:19 Like being known like that? 00:33:01:20 00:33:03:05 So literally, I'm like, that's why 00:33:03:06 00:33:04:01 I'm also at. 00:33:04:02 00:33:05:02 Like. 00:33:05:03 00:33:06:02 100%. 00:33:06:03 00:33:08:02 I'm just like, it's 00:33:08:03 00:33:09:16 yes. It's so upsetting in so many 00:33:09:17 00:33:12:08 levels. Affirming the exhausted 00:33:12:09 00:33:14:04 sigh. I feel like I do those 00:33:14:05 00:33:16:06 every other hour these 00:33:16:07 00:33:17:07 days. 00:33:17:08 00:33:19:07 And I think on the flip 00:33:19:08 00:33:21:04 side, you know, as 00:33:21:05 00:33:22:12 we've all been navigating this 00:33:22:13 00:33:24:11 pandemic and what it means for our 00:33:24:12 00:33:25:23 health, our bodies and our 00:33:25:24 00:33:27:18 communities and our networks of 00:33:27:19 00:33:29:16 support and care, 00:33:29:17 00:33:31:02 you know, in some ways I think of 00:33:31:03 00:33:33:19 like early pandemic, where 00:33:33:20 00:33:35:24 people were sharing on like TikTok 00:33:36:00 00:33:37:18 and social media, like how to do 00:33:37:19 00:33:39:24 like your fire tonics 00:33:40:00 00:33:41:19 and like your ginger this and your 00:33:41:20 00:33:42:19 lemon water that. 00:33:42:20 00:33:44:17 And like everyone was just sort of 00:33:44:18 00:33:46:15 like trying to distribute as much 00:33:46:16 00:33:48:14 of an information as a, as a way 00:33:48:15 00:33:50:03 of like support. 00:33:50:04 00:33:52:02 And I know even like in my 00:33:52:03 00:33:53:20 community, like books were just like 00:33:53:21 00:33:55:17 preparing tea bundles for each 00:33:55:18 00:33:57:05 other and like, preparing little 00:33:57:06 00:33:59:15 care packages to distribute around 00:33:59:16 00:34:00:21 and. 00:34:00:22 00:34:02:18 I think some of that has 00:34:02:19 00:34:03:19 really like 00:34:04:23 00:34:06:17 slowed it down as like the 00:34:06:18 00:34:08:01 mainstream has continued to push 00:34:08:02 00:34:10:14 like, oh, there's no need for that 00:34:10:15 00:34:11:23 in some ways. 00:34:11:24 00:34:13:01 And I think it brings me to this 00:34:13:02 00:34:14:14 question that I had mentioned to 00:34:14:15 00:34:16:17 you. Like, you know, how 00:34:16:18 00:34:18:21 have you sort of seen, 00:34:18:22 00:34:20:24 you know, support or really 00:34:21:00 00:34:22:20 not just support systems, but like 00:34:22:21 00:34:25:07 care networks sort of unfold 00:34:25:08 00:34:26:23 in this in this pandemic. 00:34:28:07 00:34:29:21 Yeah, definitely. 00:34:29:22 00:34:31:19 When it started, there were so 00:34:31:20 00:34:34:19 many people jumping into mutual aid 00:34:34:20 00:34:36:17 with so much enthusiasm 00:34:36:18 00:34:37:22 and so much energy 00:34:38:22 00:34:40:19 that I 00:34:40:20 00:34:41:20 don't want to. 00:34:43:14 00:34:45:22 I was like, How do I phrase this 00:34:45:23 00:34:47:10 in the kindest way? 00:34:47:11 00:34:49:04 Like it was clear that people would 00:34:49:05 00:34:50:04 burn out. 00:34:51:11 00:34:53:09 Unfortunately, if 00:34:53:10 00:34:55:06 you are new to a space 00:34:55:07 00:34:57:24 and you jump in like 200%, 00:34:58:00 00:34:59:21 it's just not sustainable, 00:34:59:22 00:35:01:07 you know? And it's not a judgment on 00:35:01:08 00:35:03:02 anybody. It's just literally not 00:35:03:03 00:35:04:15 sustainable for anyone. 00:35:06:19 00:35:08:15 So I haven't 00:35:08:16 00:35:10:16 been seeing very much 00:35:10:17 00:35:13:06 in the space of, like, 00:35:13:07 00:35:14:09 mutual aid. 00:35:16:20 00:35:19:00 At least locally for me. 00:35:19:01 00:35:20:20 And also, as another caveat, I don't 00:35:20:21 00:35:22:05 get out much. 00:35:22:06 00:35:24:02 I'm mostly at home these 00:35:24:03 00:35:26:08 days, and I 00:35:26:09 00:35:28:11 have seen like one 00:35:28:12 00:35:30:07 or two people in person 00:35:31:13 00:35:33:10 phone wise since the pandemic. 00:35:33:11 00:35:35:12 Just because I'm high risk COVID 00:35:35:13 00:35:37:19 and, you know, sometimes 00:35:37:20 00:35:39:13 I'm like, not totally sure I want to 00:35:39:14 00:35:41:15 be living, but but 00:35:41:16 00:35:43:12 I also just don't this is not really 00:35:43:13 00:35:45:00 want to how I want to go out either. 00:35:45:01 00:35:46:12 I don't want to go out from COVID. 00:35:46:13 00:35:47:25 So I've just been try to be as 00:35:47:26 00:35:49:01 careful as possible. 00:35:49:02 00:35:51:06 But from what I've seen, definitely 00:35:51:07 00:35:53:01 mutual aid efforts have gone down. 00:35:54:17 00:35:57:03 But where I've seen efforts continue 00:35:57:04 00:35:59:04 is in a lot of grassroots 00:35:59:05 00:36:01:02 works from from black folks 00:36:01:03 00:36:02:03 in particular 00:36:03:14 00:36:04:20 who have been showing up 00:36:04:21 00:36:06:12 pre-pandemic and know how to 00:36:06:13 00:36:07:21 continue showing up because they 00:36:07:22 00:36:09:21 know that it is a long 00:36:09:22 00:36:11:24 term need of the community. 00:36:12:00 00:36:13:19 You know, and I love that. 00:36:13:20 00:36:15:12 I love seeing collective care, 00:36:15:13 00:36:17:06 interdependence. 00:36:17:07 00:36:19:02 And I think black folks just 00:36:19:03 00:36:20:10 have a long history 00:36:21:12 00:36:23:12 of of doing that for each other. 00:36:23:13 00:36:24:12 And. 00:36:25:03 00:36:26:17 Locally. There's some groups that 00:36:26:18 00:36:28:13 clearly have experience in this area 00:36:28:14 00:36:30:10 and know how to pace so that 00:36:30:11 00:36:32:05 you don't necessarily just burn out 00:36:32:06 00:36:33:11 right away. 00:36:33:12 00:36:34:19 And definitely, Asian communities 00:36:34:20 00:36:35:19 have that as well. 00:36:37:18 00:36:39:23 Maybe slightly less so in the US. 00:36:41:06 00:36:42:21 Like I'm originally from Taiwan, I'm 00:36:42:22 00:36:44:12 like, Taiwan is handling this 00:36:44:13 00:36:46:14 pandemic so good in comparison 00:36:46:15 00:36:48:07 to us. Taiwan's not perfect, but 00:36:49:08 00:36:51:08 when I hear about in Taiwan, 00:36:51:09 00:36:53:06 like if you go there, you 00:36:53:07 00:36:54:02 quarantine. 00:36:54:03 00:36:56:01 But they deliver you things, they 00:36:56:02 00:36:58:01 deliver you meals, they deliver 00:36:58:02 00:36:59:21 you protective equipment. 00:36:59:22 00:37:02:01 I'm just like, wow, 00:37:02:02 00:37:03:01 look at this. 00:37:03:02 00:37:05:04 But like, caring for each other 00:37:05:05 00:37:07:08 on a very organized government 00:37:07:09 00:37:08:22 level is incredible. 00:37:10:20 00:37:12:19 And it's all something 00:37:12:20 00:37:14:10 that we can try to, like, 00:37:15:20 00:37:17:21 take inspiration 00:37:17:22 00:37:19:06 and learnings from. 00:37:19:07 00:37:20:17 You know, here in the US. 00:37:22:04 00:37:23:18 We have many things to learn from 00:37:23:19 00:37:25:04 the rest of the world. 00:37:25:05 00:37:26:05 Yes. 00:37:27:01 00:37:28:01 So many. 00:37:28:02 00:37:29:05 And you know. 00:37:29:06 00:37:30:04 And that and that. 00:37:30:05 00:37:32:02 No, Ali, like what is 00:37:32:03 00:37:33:22 bringing you hope I'm always 00:37:33:23 00:37:36:10 thinking about Mariam Carver's 00:37:36:11 00:37:38:24 quote of hope is a discipline 00:37:38:25 00:37:40:22 and I try to hold myself to 00:37:40:23 00:37:42:05 that because I think when we look 00:37:42:06 00:37:44:00 around, there's many reasons to feel 00:37:44:01 00:37:45:08 hopeless. Right. 00:37:45:09 00:37:47:18 And to feel sort of just exhausted 00:37:47:19 00:37:48:23 and depleted. 00:37:48:24 00:37:50:18 And I'm trying to hold myself to, 00:37:50:19 00:37:53:14 like, make space for the exhaustion 00:37:53:15 00:37:54:21 and the fatigue and the like. 00:37:54:22 00:37:56:22 I'm tired and the sigh 00:37:56:23 00:37:58:19 and also, like, clean my moments 00:37:58:20 00:38:00:14 of joy and clean my moments of light 00:38:00:15 00:38:02:06 and interdependence and like 00:38:02:07 00:38:03:10 community. 00:38:03:11 00:38:05:06 So I'm curious 00:38:05:07 00:38:07:02 for you, like what what's feeding 00:38:07:03 00:38:08:04 your hope right now? 00:38:10:14 00:38:12:08 I'm such a terrible person to ask 00:38:12:09 00:38:13:08 that question to. 00:38:14:07 00:38:15:17 I have 00:38:16:25 00:38:19:01 the low grade depression 00:38:19:02 00:38:20:23 that's with me all my life. 00:38:20:24 00:38:22:25 So I'm depressed pretty much 00:38:22:26 00:38:24:05 24 seven. 00:38:25:18 00:38:27:15 And despite how I 00:38:27:16 00:38:29:15 sound, I haven't been 00:38:29:16 00:38:31:11 feeling that hopeful. 00:38:31:12 00:38:33:13 You know, I have been struggling. 00:38:33:14 00:38:34:17 It's it's the thing I've been 00:38:34:18 00:38:35:17 struggling with, 00:38:36:24 00:38:38:18 particularly during the pandemic of 00:38:38:19 00:38:40:17 like, what things can 00:38:40:18 00:38:41:12 I look to? 00:38:41:13 00:38:43:18 And in the past, I could try to 00:38:43:19 00:38:46:16 make some future plans that are fun, 00:38:46:17 00:38:49:03 you know, with friends that I love. 00:38:51:01 00:38:52:21 Maybe trying to travel to some 00:38:52:22 00:38:54:16 nearby place. 00:38:54:17 00:38:56:20 And now I don't have that so much, 00:38:56:21 00:38:58:16 so it's hard for me to hold on 00:38:58:17 00:38:59:16 to that seed of hope. 00:39:00:23 00:39:02:10 But I will say that something that 00:39:02:11 00:39:04:03 does fill me up is just getting to 00:39:04:04 00:39:06:04 speak to other multiple 00:39:06:05 00:39:07:14 marginalized folks and other 00:39:07:15 00:39:08:15 disabled folks. 00:39:10:08 00:39:12:09 It feels at least 00:39:12:10 00:39:13:17 validating, you know, 00:39:14:18 00:39:16:12 much like how I try to do for others 00:39:16:13 00:39:18:05 in my work. Like just talking to 00:39:18:06 00:39:20:02 other people who can relate is 00:39:20:03 00:39:22:08 very validating for me 00:39:22:09 00:39:24:04 because I often feel like, 00:39:24:05 00:39:26:06 you know, you, especially 00:39:26:07 00:39:28:19 when I'm like home by myself 00:39:28:20 00:39:30:15 with my pets and 00:39:30:16 00:39:31:15 my partner. 00:39:31:16 00:39:34:06 But still it feels 00:39:34:07 00:39:35:17 my partner is non-disabled. 00:39:35:18 00:39:37:16 And so a lot of times it feels like 00:39:37:17 00:39:38:23 you're in the space. 00:39:38:24 00:39:40:18 And I spent a lot of time in my head 00:39:42:04 00:39:43:23 and I'm just like, feels like I'm 00:39:43:24 00:39:45:03 the only one going through this. 00:39:45:04 00:39:46:04 I know I'm not. 00:39:46:05 00:39:47:22 I just don't have enough interaction 00:39:47:23 00:39:49:22 with people anymore. 00:39:49:23 00:39:51:07 And I'm like, I need more of that. 00:39:51:08 00:39:53:03 I need to, 00:39:53:04 00:39:55:02 I guess, work harder at cultivating 00:39:56:15 00:39:58:05 relationships and interactions and 00:39:58:06 00:40:00:03 COVID safe ways so 00:40:00:04 00:40:02:14 that I can remember that, you know, 00:40:02:15 00:40:03:16 there are 00:40:04:17 00:40:07:09 fantastic people out there 00:40:07:10 00:40:08:21 as much as it can feel like you're 00:40:08:22 00:40:11:05 surrounded by like horribleness 00:40:11:06 00:40:13:09 and everything is all. 00:40:13:10 00:40:14:21 But you need to find 00:40:16:03 00:40:18:05 people, animal things 00:40:18:06 00:40:20:04 that resonate with you and. 00:40:21:18 00:40:23:14 I've also heard from folks that, 00:40:23:15 00:40:25:12 like, it's hard because the 00:40:25:13 00:40:26:21 things that worked for them at the 00:40:26:22 00:40:28:10 beginning of the pandemic don't work 00:40:28:11 00:40:29:16 anymore. And. 00:40:30:20 00:40:32:11 I think that's true for me as well. 00:40:32:12 00:40:33:23 They were like distractions I could 00:40:33:24 00:40:35:11 turn to. 00:40:35:12 00:40:36:15 And ultimately, I think 00:40:37:22 00:40:38:22 I'm working on this. 00:40:38:23 00:40:40:02 It's not like I have it, figure it 00:40:40:03 00:40:41:20 out, but ultimately thinking about 00:40:41:21 00:40:43:14 like, what is the most important to 00:40:43:15 00:40:44:14 me? 00:40:45:23 00:40:47:00 And how can I 00:40:48:06 00:40:49:23 bring a little bit more of that in 00:40:49:24 00:40:51:04 my life? 00:40:51:05 00:40:53:01 You know, and I don't I don't have 00:40:53:02 00:40:54:16 the answer to that. 00:40:54:17 00:40:56:02 That's why I'm not that hopeful 00:40:56:03 00:40:57:03 right now. 00:40:57:04 00:40:58:20 I'm just I'm trying to constantly 00:40:58:21 00:41:00:12 think on it to figure out if there's 00:41:00:13 00:41:02:04 small things I can do or big things 00:41:02:05 00:41:03:05 I can do. 00:41:04:11 00:41:05:03 Yes. 00:41:05:04 00:41:07:04 I mean, you know, I'd 00:41:07:05 00:41:08:05 just want to affirm that. 00:41:08:06 00:41:10:12 Right. Like, I also share 00:41:10:13 00:41:11:19 I also share this reflection of 00:41:11:20 00:41:13:11 like, wow, you know, when the 00:41:13:12 00:41:15:10 pandemic started, I was like on 00:41:15:11 00:41:16:07 my A-game. 00:41:16:08 00:41:17:23 I was like, I'm gardening. 00:41:17:24 00:41:19:22 I'm like making pasta from 00:41:19:23 00:41:22:10 scratch and, like, amazing 00:41:22:11 00:41:24:19 things. Like, I'm on it. 00:41:24:20 00:41:25:22 And it's just, I think to your 00:41:25:23 00:41:27:10 earlier point from like a pace 00:41:27:11 00:41:29:06 perspective, and I'm an organizer, 00:41:29:07 00:41:30:18 organizer in a place like Florida, 00:41:32:03 00:41:34:01 so it's like I, I know in 00:41:34:02 00:41:35:22 other areas like how important it 00:41:35:23 00:41:37:04 is to pace yourself. 00:41:37:05 00:41:38:14 But I think the pandemic was just 00:41:38:15 00:41:40:12 such a shock that we were we 00:41:40:13 00:41:42:02 went into overdrive and we put 00:41:42:03 00:41:43:19 ourselves in overdrive. 00:41:43:20 00:41:45:16 And now it's been over two years. 00:41:45:17 00:41:47:10 And you can't I mean, many of us 00:41:47:11 00:41:48:17 have been in overdrive our entire 00:41:48:18 00:41:50:06 lives because of trauma and 00:41:50:07 00:41:52:19 oppression, but I mean, sustainably, 00:41:52:20 00:41:54:02 to feel good, you cannot be in 00:41:54:03 00:41:56:04 overdrive for so long. 00:41:56:05 00:41:58:11 And I know, like I've experienced, 00:41:58:12 00:42:00:11 like being an overdrive to like for 00:42:00:12 00:42:02:15 escapism and then back to overdrive 00:42:02:16 00:42:04:12 and like dissociating and then 00:42:04:13 00:42:06:04 like this, you know, this like 00:42:06:05 00:42:08:06 roller coaster of high, low, 00:42:08:07 00:42:09:05 high, low. 00:42:09:06 00:42:10:22 And I it's been really hard to sort 00:42:10:23 00:42:13:11 of find like the ebb and flow 00:42:13:12 00:42:15:15 and the current of like, ooh, 00:42:15:16 00:42:17:09 okay, we're here, right? 00:42:17:10 00:42:18:11 Like, it just it's hard. 00:42:18:12 00:42:19:23 I think that's a challenge. 00:42:19:24 00:42:21:18 I would say all of us are up to now. 00:42:21:19 00:42:23:15 Like, what is that ebb and flow 00:42:23:16 00:42:24:17 and what is that current 00:42:25:21 00:42:27:02 going to feel like going to look 00:42:27:03 00:42:28:23 like given all these new set of 00:42:28:24 00:42:30:03 conditions? 00:42:30:04 00:42:31:10 So just want to affirm, I think 00:42:31:11 00:42:32:14 we're all trying to figure out. 00:42:32:15 00:42:34:15 I always hesitate or really 00:42:34:16 00:42:36:11 question anyone who comes in with 00:42:36:12 00:42:38:08 like, you know, really 00:42:38:09 00:42:39:04 concrete answers. 00:42:39:05 00:42:41:10 I'm like, what's that about? 00:42:41:11 00:42:43:07 So yeah, just 00:42:43:08 00:42:44:06 want to affirm that. 00:42:44:07 00:42:46:04 And I think so many of us are also 00:42:46:05 00:42:48:01 questioning and in some 00:42:48:02 00:42:49:09 ways like gaslighting ourselves 00:42:49:10 00:42:50:20 around our own experiences. 00:42:50:21 00:42:52:18 Like, you know, I 00:42:52:19 00:42:54:14 think in my perspective more 00:42:54:15 00:42:56:18 just like this, like exhaustion 00:42:56:19 00:42:58:12 to like there's exhaustion that's 00:42:58:13 00:43:00:02 like you can't like rest. 00:43:00:03 00:43:01:03 Like you can be like I'm going to 00:43:01:04 00:43:02:09 take a day to rest and then you wake 00:43:02:10 00:43:04:13 up like rejuvenated. 00:43:04:14 00:43:06:14 Like it's really hard to access that 00:43:06:15 00:43:08:17 sort of like rejuvenated 00:43:08:18 00:43:09:17 feeling. 00:43:10:14 00:43:12:03 So yeah, I just want to, wanted to 00:43:12:04 00:43:14:04 share that also to sort of affirm 00:43:14:05 00:43:14:24 I think we're all trying to. 00:43:14:25 00:43:15:23 Figure it out. 00:43:15:24 00:43:17:16 Yeah, for sure. 00:43:17:17 00:43:18:19 And I think something that's 00:43:18:20 00:43:21:08 important to know that I've 00:43:21:09 00:43:23:09 seen said over and over is like, 00:43:23:10 00:43:25:15 it's hard to recover from trauma 00:43:25:16 00:43:27:16 when you're still going through it, 00:43:27:17 00:43:29:11 you know? And the thing is like 00:43:31:05 00:43:32:21 we're still going through the trauma 00:43:32:22 00:43:34:08 because the pandemic is still 00:43:34:09 00:43:36:01 happening. As much as everyone tries 00:43:36:02 00:43:38:17 to say it's not, but it is 00:43:38:18 00:43:40:13 and it is 00:43:40:14 00:43:41:15 a global crisis. 00:43:41:16 00:43:42:24 But at the same time, 00:43:44:13 00:43:46:07 the adjusting to new normal that 00:43:46:08 00:43:47:18 we're not talking about should be 00:43:47:19 00:43:49:17 like, what if we just mass 00:43:49:18 00:43:51:05 do all the time? 00:43:51:06 00:43:52:18 What if we just got used to that? 00:43:52:19 00:43:54:08 You know, what if we got used to 00:43:54:09 00:43:56:08 taking precautions instead 00:43:56:09 00:43:58:13 of trying to pretend 00:43:58:14 00:44:00:14 like no precautions are necessary 00:44:00:15 00:44:02:22 and then reentering the cycle 00:44:02:23 00:44:03:22 of 00:44:04:21 00:44:06:05 variance? 00:44:06:06 00:44:08:00 You know, if we got used to a 00:44:08:01 00:44:09:17 different kind of cycle, the safety 00:44:09:18 00:44:11:11 cycle, maybe that would help. 00:44:11:12 00:44:13:04 But since we're not doing that, 00:44:13:05 00:44:14:05 it's, it's 00:44:15:02 00:44:17:03 us being retraumatized over 00:44:17:04 00:44:19:03 and over and it's just 00:44:19:04 00:44:20:17 really hard to. 00:44:21:21 00:44:23:02 Adjust to that. 00:44:23:03 00:44:25:03 When you're your 00:44:25:04 00:44:26:24 government, your authority 00:44:27:00 00:44:29:23 figures are putting you through 00:44:29:24 00:44:31:19 emotional roller coasters again 00:44:31:20 00:44:33:06 and again. 00:44:33:07 00:44:35:06 You know, and so we 00:44:35:07 00:44:36:21 have to also remember, like, 00:44:38:05 00:44:39:07 it's just hard. 00:44:40:12 00:44:42:10 You like you can't you you 00:44:42:11 00:44:44:00 sort of. You usually have to be 00:44:44:01 00:44:45:01 like. 00:44:46:08 00:44:48:04 Somewhat distant from something 00:44:48:05 00:44:50:01 before you can really 00:44:50:02 00:44:51:25 take it all in and 00:44:52:00 00:44:53:21 try to so-called recover or 00:44:53:22 00:44:54:23 just adjust. 00:44:54:24 00:44:56:10 And we're just we're not away from 00:44:56:11 00:44:57:11 it. 00:44:57:12 00:44:58:18 We're still in it now. 00:44:58:19 00:45:00:00 And I'm that way, too. 00:45:00:01 00:45:01:16 I'm like, Oh, I feel like I should 00:45:01:17 00:45:02:12 be over it. 00:45:02:13 00:45:04:07 And not not over the pandemic, but I 00:45:04:08 00:45:05:13 feel like I should be over this 00:45:05:14 00:45:06:13 exhaustion. 00:45:07:16 00:45:10:17 I feel like I should have adjusted, 00:45:10:18 00:45:11:15 but I'm not. 00:45:11:16 00:45:13:12 Because it's just 00:45:13:13 00:45:14:12 it's still going. 00:45:16:03 00:45:17:08 Hmm. That's so powerful. 00:45:17:09 00:45:19:01 I think I'm going to sit with that 00:45:19:02 00:45:20:24 for a while. Just like. 00:45:21:00 00:45:22:15 Yeah, like when we're still moving 00:45:22:16 00:45:25:12 through the crisis, how do we 00:45:25:13 00:45:27:03 get over the crisis? 00:45:27:04 00:45:29:02 Yeah, it's really counterintuitive. 00:45:29:03 00:45:30:04 When you say it out loud, it's like, 00:45:30:05 00:45:31:11 what? What do you. 00:45:31:12 00:45:33:05 It just doesn't make any sense. 00:45:33:06 00:45:34:02 You know? 00:45:34:03 00:45:34:21 It doesn't. 00:45:34:22 00:45:36:01 But it's funny because sometimes you 00:45:36:02 00:45:37:07 just have to hear something so 00:45:37:08 00:45:38:21 simple and clear out loud to be 00:45:38:22 00:45:40:23 like, oh, yeah, word 00:45:40:24 00:45:42:09 like, I don't know what that's 00:45:42:10 00:45:44:02 about. So I'm definitely going to 00:45:44:03 00:45:46:00 sit with that for sure for a while 00:45:46:01 00:45:47:21 because it's funny. 00:45:47:22 00:45:49:03 I'm like thinking even like my 00:45:49:04 00:45:50:14 therapy sessions, I'm processing 00:45:50:15 00:45:51:19 things that might have happened ten, 00:45:51:20 00:45:52:24 15 years ago 00:45:54:06 00:45:55:21 and it's like just now, you know? 00:45:55:22 00:45:57:06 I was just thinking of that this 00:45:57:07 00:45:58:09 morning. Like, wow. 00:45:58:10 00:46:00:04 Like, it takes it takes this 00:46:00:05 00:46:01:18 distance, it takes this time, it 00:46:01:19 00:46:03:14 takes reflection to be able 00:46:03:15 00:46:05:11 to be like, what happens? 00:46:05:12 00:46:07:04 What has been the impact of that on 00:46:07:05 00:46:09:05 me? And like we still we have, 00:46:09:06 00:46:11:10 we know like short immediate impacts 00:46:11:11 00:46:12:16 of this pandemic on us, right? 00:46:12:17 00:46:13:16 Like all the ways in which we've 00:46:13:17 00:46:14:12 seen. 00:46:14:13 00:46:16:10 But it's like, how are we like, 00:46:16:11 00:46:17:20 how are we going to be impacted five 00:46:17:21 00:46:19:15 years down the road, ten years and 00:46:19:16 00:46:20:19 beyond? 00:46:20:20 00:46:23:05 And yeah, oof, 00:46:23:06 00:46:24:03 it's a lot. 00:46:24:04 00:46:25:06 It's a lot. 00:46:25:07 00:46:27:05 I prefer not to think about that. 00:46:27:06 00:46:28:17 If I think about it, I'm just going 00:46:28:18 00:46:30:22 to be overly exhausted. 00:46:30:23 00:46:31:18 The spiral. 00:46:31:19 00:46:33:08 No, no, no, no. I'm like we. 00:46:33:09 00:46:34:12 I rebuke that today. 00:46:36:09 00:46:39:04 Yeah, but it is it is a process, 00:46:39:05 00:46:40:16 you know, and you can say words to 00:46:40:17 00:46:41:17 yourself all you are. 00:46:41:18 00:46:43:15 I can say so many platitudes, but 00:46:43:16 00:46:45:11 ultimately it's like, 00:46:45:12 00:46:47:22 oh, a long exercise 00:46:47:23 00:46:49:18 in patients with each other and 00:46:49:19 00:46:51:23 especially ourselves, you know, 00:46:51:24 00:46:54:06 I'm like, I'm the most impatient 00:46:54:07 00:46:56:08 with myself all the time. 00:46:56:09 00:46:57:17 Um, what. 00:46:57:18 00:46:59:13 What astrological sign 00:46:59:14 00:47:00:04 are you? 00:47:00:05 00:47:01:16 I'm a Libra. 00:47:01:17 00:47:02:24 Okay? 00:47:03:00 00:47:03:23 I love Libra. 00:47:03:24 00:47:05:03 I'm like, That's interesting. 00:47:05:04 00:47:06:16 I feel like there must be something 00:47:06:17 00:47:08:00 else in your chart because Libra is 00:47:08:01 00:47:11:05 are usually, like, indecisive, 00:47:11:06 00:47:13:05 which sometimes can lead to, 00:47:13:06 00:47:14:23 like, a weird impatience and ask how 00:47:14:24 00:47:15:24 like. 00:47:16:00 00:47:17:18 I'm like, I'm a tiger Libra. 00:47:17:19 00:47:18:25 It's important to notice. 00:47:18:26 00:47:21:08 Note my Chinese astrological 00:47:21:09 00:47:23:05 side is a tiger. 00:47:23:06 00:47:24:14 Oops, that part. 00:47:24:15 00:47:26:08 I'm a I'm a fire tiger. 00:47:26:09 00:47:27:09 Thank you. 00:47:28:04 00:47:28:18 Exactly. 00:47:28:19 00:47:30:16 So I'm like, oh, I'm 00:47:30:17 00:47:32:02 missing here. 00:47:32:03 00:47:34:00 Yeah. The other tiger Libra 00:47:34:01 00:47:35:02 that I've met is. 00:47:37:12 00:47:38:12 A lot like me. 00:47:39:22 00:47:41:09 We really relate to each other. 00:47:41:10 00:47:43:17 We have strong personalities. 00:47:43:18 00:47:44:23 I love that. I love when you see 00:47:44:24 00:47:46:04 yourself reflected in some way. 00:47:46:05 00:47:48:09 You're like, Oh, oh, 00:47:48:10 00:47:49:20 this okay? 00:47:49:21 00:47:51:09 I'm not alone in them. 00:47:51:10 00:47:53:04 Like, Yeah, I think, I think it's 00:47:53:05 00:47:54:22 just that trait of a tiger Libra 00:47:54:23 00:47:56:11 where we have, like, very strong 00:47:56:12 00:47:58:05 opinions, but we also try to see 00:47:58:06 00:47:59:16 things from different sides. 00:48:00:24 00:48:01:22 Very powerful. 00:48:01:23 00:48:02:21 Very powerful, but. 00:48:02:22 00:48:03:22 Yes, strong. 00:48:05:02 00:48:06:22 Oh, well, Ellie, I want to thank you 00:48:06:23 00:48:07:19 for your time. 00:48:07:20 00:48:09:18 I want to thank you for being 00:48:09:19 00:48:11:22 here with me today. 00:48:11:23 00:48:13:17 I know it's a lot earlier on 00:48:13:18 00:48:15:22 the west side of the country, 00:48:15:23 00:48:17:20 like I feel way deep in my 00:48:17:21 00:48:19:17 day, but really grateful for you 00:48:19:18 00:48:21:14 taking the time and then also just 00:48:21:15 00:48:24:06 sharing all of your observations 00:48:24:07 00:48:26:07 and the gifts. Just like. 00:48:26:08 00:48:28:07 Reminding us to, like, notice, you 00:48:28:08 00:48:29:16 know, like I'm I'm leaving this 00:48:29:17 00:48:31:03 conversation with some deep 00:48:31:04 00:48:33:08 reflections and just like, oh, 00:48:33:09 00:48:34:19 well, yeah, there are reasons why we 00:48:34:20 00:48:36:04 feel this way. 00:48:36:05 00:48:37:17 And sometimes it's not just like an 00:48:37:18 00:48:39:03 intellectual exercise. 00:48:39:04 00:48:40:16 And I really want to thank you for, 00:48:40:17 00:48:42:13 like, reminding us of 00:48:42:14 00:48:43:21 it's. Yeah, it's beyond just like, 00:48:43:22 00:48:45:04 our head and what we tell ourselves 00:48:45:05 00:48:46:07 in the head. Like, there's real 00:48:46:08 00:48:47:10 impacts of everything we're 00:48:47:11 00:48:48:21 navigating. And thank you for your 00:48:48:22 00:48:50:02 work. 00:48:50:03 00:48:51:24 Oh, thank you so much for 00:48:51:25 00:48:53:05 having me and having this 00:48:53:06 00:48:54:21 conversation. I think it was really 00:48:54:22 00:48:56:16 validating for me as well. 00:48:56:17 00:48:58:17 So make definitely 00:48:58:18 00:49:01:00 makes me feel less alone. 00:49:01:01 00:49:03:09 Yeah. I'd love to hear it. 00:49:03:10 00:49:04:04 Love to hear it. 00:49:04:05 00:49:06:04 Thank you. Thank you so much. 00:49:06:05 00:49:07:08 Of course.