Misty Copeland on Her Own Terms

dancer Misty Copeland. She made history in twenty fifteen when she became the first black woman ever to be promoted to principal dancer at the American Ballet Theater. When she's off stage, Copeland is committed to making more communities feel like bay belong in the world of ballet. I feel like that's something that I've taken on as a responsibility. Copeland's interest in music and movement drew her to ballet

at a young age. It was her creative outlet and escape, and as she progressed, ballet both nurtured and challenged her. I attribute my success, the person that I am, all of this to so many of the qualities within the ballet structure. That gave me the tools to be successful, not just as a ballet dancer, but as a person, as a woman, as a leader in my community. I'm Anita Hill. This is Getting Even, my podcast about equality

and what it takes to get there. On Getting Even, I speak with people who are improving our imperfect world, people who took risks and broke the rules. In this episode, Missy Copeland and I discuss how she journeyed from the local boys and Girls club to the American Ballet Theater, maneuvering through racist politics along the way. We also discuss how she uses that very platform to empower black and

brown girls. Today. You were the first person on my list to interview, and it's really a tribute to all of the wonderful things that you've done and that you continue to do in your professional life, as well as the way you present outside of the ballet world. Thank you. So, I want to just get started with your story. Am I correct that you started ballet at thirteen? Yes? You are, And I say it that way because it seems to me that most of the people who are in those

beginning classes are like five years old. Yes, yes, that's true. So what was it like for you those first few years as somebody who was starting much later than some of the people who you were probably dancing with. You know, it was an opportunity that I feel like I was craving and waiting for. Didn't realize it, you know, coming from the communities that I grew up in, being in a single parent home and being one of six children.

But I mean I was so introverted. I had a lot of shame that was kind of surrounding me in terms of not wanting people to know the circumstances that we were living in, and so I became this like

shell of a person. I was not involved in any any extracurricular activities, anything artistic or physical in terms of sports, until I decided at like twelve and a half that out of nowhere that I was going to audition for the drill team, and not just auditioned to be on the team, but I was going to audition to be

captain of the team. And you know, I think that it was this evolution of having music in my life, which was constantly around the house, and I was always drawn to lyrics and it was like, these are the words I wish I could speak, and things I'm feeling, but I'm not capable. I don't have the tools, and movement became this outlet with the chaos in my home, whether it was abuse, instability, all of that. So I auditioned for the drill team and I made captain. A

family was shocked. They're like, to you understand that you're going to be on stage performing for people. And it was interesting because being on a stage was the one space that I felt protected. I felt like I could express myself and communicate to the audience, but I didn't have to see them. They weren't going to respond in a way that I had to address what they were

thinking or their opinion. The teacher who was running the drill team saw potential in me, and she suggested I take a free ballet class that was being offered at my local boys and Girls club. So it was at thirteen years old that I really entered into ballet. I took my first ballet class on a basketball court at my club, and the teacher, who was teaching from the local ballet school, she immediately said, I think you're a prodigy and I want to take you into my school

full scholarship. She eventually invited me to live with her, and from the moment that I stepped into her studio, the goal was for me to dance professionally, and American Ballet theater was always the goal. So it was a clear vision of what I was working towards. But I just fell in love with this thing that gave me a purpose, gave me a way to grow as a human being, and I just feel like it saved my life.

You said so many things that caught my attention. You said there was a teacher, there was music that said what you wanted to say but couldn't didn't have the artistry to say it. And you said boys and Girls Club. So those seem to be the really important elements of your life that helped you in what you describe as an unstable situation. Absolutely, and all of those things are still so important in my life. So what music were

you listening to. There's a lot of soul and R and B and hip hop being played around the house. It was an array of music, But like Anita Baker and Shade and Aretha Franklin, there's a lot of stuff. The one that I really connected with was when Mariah Carey's debut album came out, and you know, it was the first time that I saw a biracial woman of her caliber, her talent, her exposure, and I felt like

I could see myself in her. It wasn't a conscious thing at the time, Like, it wasn't until I was an adult that I could really decipher what that draw was. That's the importance of representation. It allows for you to see possibilities and it allows you to dream. And you know, Mariah as a friend of mine now and it's just funny to be able to like share these things with her. And she's always like, I'm not taking credit for your

ballet career. I'm like, but Maria, you literally were like the catalysts for everything, you know, for this, like belief in myself that I could do this thing that I knew nothing about, and seeing someone who looked like me succeeding and talented and gifted. Well, you know. But that's an amazing thing, is that that there are so many different influences in each of our lives, but that you could connect those influences with what you ultimately came to do.

I also note that that you had an outlet for what was going on in your mind about what your capabilities were, and how important it is for people to have ballet or whatever it is that they set their mind to do, have an opportunity to find it. Yes, but I imagine that ballet was not available for everyone

in your area. You're absolutely right, and that's why I'm so passionate about, first of all, identifying the beauty in classical dance and all the positives that there are in terms of like how it helped me as a young person to develop as a human being. That's why I'm such an advocate for creating opportunities for it to be accessible to more communities and then kind of changing the narrative and the outlook on how these communities see dance

and that they do belong in those spaces. You know, I attribut my success the person that I am all of this too, So many of the qualities within the ballet structure that gave me the tools to be successful not just as a ballet dancer, but as a person, as a woman, as a leader in my community, and

for me as Misty the Black Ballerina. It's kind of picking apart what are the things that need to change and evolve in ballet, but what are the amazing things about it that can help so many children right out of the box. Let's say you were thinking way ahead. I mean not that you were just going to learn ballet, but that you were going to have a career in ballet. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think that says something about who you are too. You know, you had an ambition, you were ambitious.

I don't think that consciously I was. I was like, I'm focused, I'm going to be a professional, But it was like, I love this and there's an no way I could live my life without having it. And then it evolved into learning about the history of ballet, learning about the history of American Ballet theater, how I could possibly fit into it. Then being brought to my first live performance seeing ABT when I was fifteen years old, and saying, I can see it clearly, this is exactly

what I want to do. These are what my goals are. But again, it was having an incredible support system and structure around me that allowed me to see those things clearly. And you were making that kind of decision about where you would go with the American Ballet Theater against the backdrop of a society where black women's bodies have been scrutinized and misrepresented and dismissed and oversexualized and all kinds of ways misinterpreted. And you were breaking into at the time,

but was a mostly white space. That's amazing in and of help, But I think what is truly amazing is that you've done it on your own terms. Yeah, it's been quite a journey, and there have been people around me that have seen it clearly, like my first ballet teacher, Cynthia Bradley, whom I lived with and who saw this vision from the beginning. I always thought she was this crazy lady that was super artistic, and I was like, yeah, Okay, I'm just gonna keep doing what I love. You can

have your visions. But I was in almost this protective bubble where though I was the only black girl for the most part in the studios that I trained in as a young person, Cynthia was really good about not letting that enter my bubble. There was a lot going on that I didn't learn about until I was older. There were parents who were removing their children from the school because I was doing the lead as a person of color. I was taking parts away from the child

when they were giving money as board members. You know, there's a lot of a lot of politics and racism happening that a lot of black and brown children experienced to their face at a young age in the ballet world, and I feel fortunate that I didn't experience that. It wasn't until I was a professional that I really understood how rare it was for me to be where I was. You know, I was the only black woman for the first decade of my career at ABT, and it was

a lot. It was a lot of learning on the spot, learning on the job, but also being vulnerable and open to having mentors come into my life, and being fortunate enough that people were reaching out to me, black women reaching out to me outside of the ballet world that wanted to be a support system. And that's why I understand the importance of being a mentor for the next generation. After the break, Copeland and I discussed the scrutiny that black female bodies and how it's often amplified in the

world of ballet. You're listening to getting even I'm Anita Hill. I'm speaking with Misty Copeland, the first black female principal dancer at the American Ballet Theater we talk about her book Black Ballerinas and her mission to celebrate dancers of color who have paved the way. We also get into how black bodies fit or don't fit the traditional ballet esthetic, and why Copeland's iconic roles are even more meaningful as a result. Were you ever told that you didn't have

the right body for ballet? Yes? I still am to this day. Yes. What's so interesting is that from the time I started dance, why I was called a prodigy was that I was being told I had the perfect ballet body. I was given full scholarships, you know. I was told, like, you have the right body proportions. And then all of a sudden, I become a professional and it's like something switched and I no longer had the right body. And a lot of that was like deciphering

what that language means. And the more I was exposed to other dancers of color, other black women in the ballet world, the more you realize, oh, that's just code for you don't have the right skin color, and you will not fit into a cord of ballet. You will bring imbalance to this white sea of dancers. It was a lot to take in and like in a ballet company.

There's no mentorship program, there's no guidance. You know. I moved to New York City straight out of high school at seventeen on my own, and you're just kind of thrown into the sea, you know, you sink or swim. And it was important that I had incredible women that came into my life that kind of put that life vest on me and helped me to like figure it out.

So do you think that a part of it, too, is not just not fitting into the particular static but also this historic stereotype that we have of black women dancers. I think about Josephine Baker, who was, you know, able to do what she was doing because she was considered to be exotic and that wasn't really what's happening in ballet was. I mean, the exotic was not what they were looking for. No. No, it's difficult to change the

way people think ballet should be. And then it's just it keeps getting repeated, like this is what a ballerina should look like. She should be fair skinned and soft and feminine, and black women are not often depicted that way or given an opportunity to be seen that way, which is why it's so important, you know, for me to take on roles like Juliette and Romeo and Juliet

or the white Swan and Swan Lake. These are all roles that have been kept from Black women for generations and generations because they're seen as the opposite of what black women are seen as. I think what happened with me is that I got to a point where a lot of black dancers get to where, first of all, the opportunities stop and you're not surrounded by people who have been through what you've been through. There's no real documentation of our history. It's not like we can open

up a history book. Oh, this person went through this, this person went through this, and you kind of pick up from where they left off, learned from their experiences. We don't have that, and I feel like that's something that I've taken on as a responsibility. You know, I feel like I'm in this position to create our own narrative and write our history. And you know, that was

really the reasoning for me writing Black Collars. My journey to our legacy was to be able to share this twenty year journey that I've had being a professional with American Ballet theater. And you know, this wasn't like I decided to write this book and then I went on Google six months prior and I started learning. This has been twenty years of learning on the job, learning from other black dancers that I'd meet and connect with, and

what dancers came before me. You know, it allows you to see where I can go because of what they've done and the doors that have been opened for me. And there are just so many incredible dancers that people don't know their names or their contributions to this art form. What are the names of some of those women. I'm like, looking at my book right now, there's so many tie him and as Janet Collins, Deborrah Austin, Raven Wilkinson, Marion Sugette.

You know, they're the dancers today that I felt it was important to include in the list because it's not just about our past. It's about the dancers that are doing it now, that are up in coming, that are going to continue on our legacies. Erica Loell, Nikisha Fogo, Ebony Williams. There's so many, and in my book, I have twenty seven that I featured, and that's not at

all a comprehensive list. But you know, you're only given a certain number of pages on books, and so I know you know, but there's there's an incredible list of black and brown dancers to learn about there. Of course, when you give us that description of your book and your work and your thinking, I'm thinking about black girls.

Did you write this book for them? Yes? You know, of course, everything that I do, I want it to be for everyone, even if it's if it's different communities learning about what it is to be a black woman, what it is to be a black dancer in this world.

It's for everyone. But of course you know from my first book, my memoir, the through line throughout the entire book was this is for the little brown girls, you know, And so of course those are the people that are often excluded when it comes to opportunities, when it comes to being nurtured and told they're beautiful and told they're important. So they're definitely at the top of mind whenever I'm

writing or thinking about the next generation. In a way, you are writing the history of ballet that hasn't been told. And I wonder if in that writing you have come up with your own idea about why there is this resistance to the presence of the black body. What's behind that in your opinion, Well, I think for starters, you know, this is a European art form, and that's kind of

the base of it. So many of the stories and the ballets that we tell are not a reflection of our community as black people, and of so many communities, especially in America. There are the stories of European white men from the eighteen hundreds, four hundred years later. It's not really something that you can really grasp because it's been exposed to so many different cultures over the course of the time. So, yes, those are the origins, but that's no longer the limitations of who sees it, who's

influenced by it, who's inspired by it. It's now a part of the fabric of America when you talk about how female dancers are portrayed through the eyes of white men, white European man, and that's where the sexism comes in, isn't it. Yeah. I was reading an article like a week ago, and I think it was in the New York Times about this about, you know the fact that white men are still completely running the classical ballet world.

You know, there has been some movement but it's something that needs to be talked about and addressed, and I think you'll see some real shifts once you get more diversity at the top. You know, it's not just about the diversity see on stage, but it's behind the scenes. It's the board of directors, it's the artistic staff, it's the teachers at the low levels that are teaching children.

If they don't see themselves reflected and they don't have people who understand them, then that's when you lose that connection and people who want to be a part of it. So it's tackling these issues on every level. When you join the American Ballot Theater, did you feel like you had to represent the Wraith at ABT? Yes, But I never saw that as a negative thing. I never saw that as something put on me or pressure. It's been something that I've actively done. From the moment that I

joined ABT. My immediate visceral react action was, oh, my gosh, well I ever see another black woman alongside me in this company, and so my goal was getting more brown girls in the company with me and telling our stories. While I was in a space where I could be seen and heard, you could have made a different choice, I think, and I understand the choice that you made to go to ABT, but you could have chosen to go to Dance Theater of Harlaw. I understand they were

courting you to come to Dance Theater of Harlem. Why did you decide to go to American Ballet Theater. Yeah, it's a great question. I think from from the beginning, my teacher, Cynthia Bradley, from the moment that I started dancing, she was very cognizant of the obstacles that might lie ahead being a black girl in the ballet world. And of all the companies in America and Europe, ABT was the most diverse culturally in terms of dancers were from

and with their training. Most companies are connected to a school. You have to train through their school in their technique to get into the company. That's why all the dancers look similar. But at ABT, they allowed dancers from all over the world to come to their company, and they liked that they looked different, and so she felt like that's a place where she can thrive. So that was the reason that ABT was what I was working towards.

But Dance of Harlem was always around and Arthur Mitchell was there supporting me, and I was pretty new to the company when Arthur called me and asked me to come take company class and speak to him, and he knew I was having a difficult time. He understood what it was to be the only I mean, he was the only black person in a company at New York City Ballet and became the first black principal dancer there.

He said to me, like, you know, you could come here and you could be surrounded by people who look like you, who will support you. These are unspoken things. You don't have to have these microaggressions and explain yourself. And he offered me a solos contract. And my thinking was, first of all, what Arthur did at New York City Ballet change the landscape for opportunities for black dancers everywhere, and then creating dance set of Harlem took that to

a whole new level. And I felt like I had a purpose being in that space an American ballet theater to make change that we still haven't made, which is to exist in these white spaces and succeed and change the narrative. And I didn't feel that I could do that completely at dance set of Harlem. You know, I felt like I would be a part of something incredible in historic and I'd be surrounded by people who look

like me and I'd feel good inside. But I felt like I meant to be at ABT and make change there. And did you speak out there to make change? Yeah? I mean it's been my whole career, and that's what I've been doing it for twenty years. You know. It's it's been learning and navigating and doing it in ways that are acceptable. You know, it's like any black person navigating their way through a white construct and learning how

to have those conversations. That's a very intimidating thing to be a young black girl having conversations with your older, white male artistic director and being able to articulate yourself in express without being too aggressive or too overemotional or angry. You know, all of these things attributed to being a

woman and to being black. And it's been a long process, and I feel like I'm definitely in a space now where I'm in a position of power where I can speak to the truths of so many dancers that feel they can't because they may be reprimanded for it. I also think that we're in a different time, you know, post George Floyd, where it's not just the world that's you know, that's looking at itself and wanting to take change,

but the ballet world is absolutely doing it. And it's a good feeling to feel like I'm not the only person on this platform speaking, but that other dancers of color feel empowered to do it now. You mentioned George Floyd and twenty was a racial reckoning for the country. Have you seen meaningful change in the last couple of years in the ballet world, change that can translate to what's going on outside in the world too. Yes, this is you know, this is the first time that I

feel that we're being exposed. Ballet culture is such a niche thing and we kind of exist in our own world and so the people inside of it get away with a lot of things. And I feel like we've almost been exposed, you know, the doors have been opened and people are seeing what we went through, you know, with this rise of Black Lives Matter, like the ballet world is like a couple hundred years behind that. So

it's been a moment. But also with the pandemic, it really I think made the ballet world in particular, step back and take a look at itself. So I'm hopeful, but you know, we have to just keep the conversation going and hold people accountable. It shouldn't just be our responsibility as black and brown people. Everyone should be contributing to the changes in evolution. A couple of years ago, a dancer, Chloe Lopez Gomes won her complaint against the

German Ballet Company for race discrimination. Very recently last year, Christine fint Roy left Dance Theater of Harlem for the Boston Ballet and she said, you know, out loud, something that probably dancers wouldn't have said years ago. But she says she dances for the other people to change people's lives. And so I guess I ask you can breakthroughs like yours, like miss Lopez Gomes, like Miss fint Roys, Can they

change people's lives? Absolutely? Absolutely. I mean I didn't even have exposure to that, and my life was changed through this art form. And I've seen it. I've seen it firsthand. You know, simply by existing, by being a body on that stage that people can connect to and relate to and see possibilities. And it may not be connected to ballet, but they can say I can exist in a space where there aren't very many, but it's a possibility for me.

I definitely think that all of these stories being accessible will change lives, are changing lives, and that's why it's so important for me to continue on these legacies and share these stories. It's definitely making an impact. Well, I will just close by saying this. When I was in law school, I took my first ballet class. It literally change the way that I sell myself and I sell

my body. And you also have to keep in mind that I am a farm girl from Oklahoma, rural Oklahoma, really rural Oklahoma, and I have loved ballet and I think you're absolutely right that ballet can change people's perspective of life and of their own bodies and where they belong. And and in large part that is because of the work that you're doing that people understand that. So thank you so much, Thanks for all that you are doing, and keep up the great work. Thank you so much

for having me this and honor thank you. Mister Copeland's story reminds us that opportunity and support can change a person's life and how that in turn can change our world. Along with her immense talent, determination and hard work, Copeland's legacy will be her commitment to creating a career on her own terms. She is inspiring and uplifting the next generation. We need to give them the support and resources they need to succeed, resources that are too often lacking for

black and brown girls. Copeland is paying it back and paying it forward, lifting up the names of the dancers on whose shoulders she stands, and bringing others along with her as she diversifies ballet. In the next episode, I speak with author, educator, and activist Monique Morris about her work to transform the lives of black and brown girls and how they're represented in the world, to unpack how we normalized this expectation that black girls will be loud, sassy, combative,

and sexualized without talking about remedy. Getting Even is a production of Pushkin Industries and is written and hosted by me Anita Hill. It is produced by Mola Board and Brittany Brown. Our editor is Sarah Kramer, our engineer is Amanda kay Wang, and our showrunner is Sasha Matthias. Luis Gara composed original music for the show. Our executive producers are Mia Lobel and le tal malaud Our Director of

Development is Justine Lang. At Pushkin thanks to Heather Fane, Carly Migliori, Jason Gambrel, Julia Barton, John Schnarz, and Jacob Weisberg. You can find me on Twitter at Anita Hill and on Facebook at Anita Hill. You can find Pushkin on all social platforms at Pushkin Pods, and you can sign up for our newsletter at pushkin dot f M. If you love this show in others from Pushkin Industries, consider

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