RANDOM THOUGHTS Ep. 6 | THE CHIEF’S EDITION

You're listening to the Getting Salty Experienced podcast. All right, Matthew D. Benedetto and a world You go. Look who's sitting it tonight. Ah yes, ah, yes, good to see Mike. Yes, Mike for the second time. It's good to see you. How are you. I'm well, thank you well, doing well, feeling sight. He's out in Iowa. Whatever he's doing out there, you know, farming, killing things. I don't know what he's doing. It's up for usual hunting with bow and

arrows. He's a bow and arrow guy. But I don't think he's uh. I don't think he's hunt now. Maybe he's dus a crop sharing or something. I don't know what he's buying a farm. Yeah, but you know, I missed him so much I figured play something here because I do miss him. You know, get old, he's not sitting in there. I get over the clapped mic. You roll out so I can feel like

my buddy's still here. I'll put him in my shoulder too. We haven't played this in a while, so this is a little blast in the past. Enjoy everybody. I'll leave him right here. Here we go. If you follow the smoke from a sistem to polls one or three where they're fine. It's a key. When you see him, you must sing. When you bust through the door from some eighty year old broad, that's for a frando. When you pee on Coob's hood and you're just misunderstood, that's for

a frando. Where have you skip on the I as the cheap bass to live, that's Rofrando. When you yell at the chief Benghett lifted so brief, that's rofrando. Man, you're prated by Karen in a haul that's so barren, that's Rofrando. When you take your big bow and shoot in a sindo, that's rofrando. And remember also no subseller a boy? Do I miss him? I miss him? C Let me telling you guys. If you fuckers don't learn anything tonight. We got four chiefs on with total of

one hundred and fifty three years of fire service. So what are you offices out there? Pull your chairs up, listen close to any young guys with any aspirations of studying. Listen close, get a notebook, jot some ship down and learn something from crying out loud. Even if you're a civilians. It's good to pay attention. Like myself. It's good to pay attention. And I pick up on these things because, hey, you might find yourself

in an emergency before the fire department gets there. You'll know what to do and it kind of makes the guy's job easier when they get there. So civilians too, pay attention, Listen up and pay attention. Right mouth closed is open exactly. But let's play some We gotta make some suckles here. We gotta make some money here before we bring in out guests. Indeed, we do a couple of commercials. Michael. We'll go to armatof at a

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love Vince. We do great guy, we do excellent. Let's bring him in at one at a time, bro, Like I said, one hundred and fifty three years of fire experience, We'll bring the guy. You know, I like to break his balls, but I couldn't be proud of this guy. Is the hardest working guy I've ever seen. It's my brother, it's the guy. It's the Chief, It's Chief Steve. Bring him on in here there he is evening. He gets a little cloth hell for those

of you who have ever seen it. Though, we've gotta do it, uncle rerun of one of the Chief Steve songs, because he loves it so much. Oh I love him. I forgot about this. Well, here we go. I'm Chief Steve back with another jam. I got a new ankle, so you could say, hot, damn my job, baby over. I put it in forty plus. Now I think I'll go and drive a yellow BLUs. Not just any bus, but a special one. Indeed,

my little brother Kevin, he has special needs. I'll drive that yellow bus and buckfle in his ass and tightened him his helmet as he licks the freaking glass. When I'm gone, don't be overtime looters. I'll hunt you all down. I'm my fucking scooter. You have not seen the last of me. Be sure I'll be hanging with these diickheads on the consulting tour because I'm Chief Steve. Never gets old, yeah, never gets old, man. We got a load of the other ones yet, I haven't seen the

other ones in a while. But then never gets old for me, never gets all. Yeah, you know what. I just love to entertaining you. What can I say? Thanks so much? And now you do? Now you do? Chief? He can't stop laughing, he can't even talk. You want me to be all right, Let's go to Chief Tony, I mean Tom Sarah Grusa from San Francisco, the fall left, Chief top Sara Grusa forty three years of five duty, by the way, and there is you said, the far left. You're referring to the West coast.

You're no, no, no, no, no not. You want me far from it? Chief Chie's got a shirt on. Why do you show that shirt today? Yet? Chief Steve what do you got coming? You identify as a non bidenary very my pronouns. Let's go all right, this is just for you then you're ready. Come on, man, come on man. That goes hand in hand with this one. You dick all right? When I called this next guy, he's got thirty nine years on the job. Bro, He's like, you don't want to see Chief Crooker anymore?

I said, you can never get enough of Mitch Crooker, Bro, besides the fact that I think he's shorted me. That's why I want to have money show. Let's bring him in here. There he is Mitch Crooker from Chicago. Here. Yes, thanks for coming background, che Hello, hello, thanks for having like like punishment. Your third trip around excellent? Yeah, it is three a track for you hockey guys. All right, one more guy. You know him? You love him? I sometimes love

nihilism. It's Chief Gonzo coming in hot. There he is coming in shit hot. What do you what is that? Yeah? I didn't know. Hold on, what do you tell me you're gonna do that? I would just give you a little surprise, but put it on. Let us not velvet. It's a little hard with all right round by Gonzo thanks for stopping by, appreciate it. Before we get to the questions. Like I said, listen up, some good questions coming away. We need to get patriotic, bro, So Mike, please, if you would sure, here we

go. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic, for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all beautiful. See you are shorter than me. I knew it. I just standing up, bro, Thank you, So I am wet. You want a box? Thank you? We can go that kind of a box now, you know what. Sitting on a pillow. Ah, I'm sitting not on them, but they're behind me for back

support. I got to him, so I'm not the only one. Hey, min alone raised up a couple of inches that involved here at all. All right, who's got the questions? Who's gonna shoot the first question? Mike? You got him? Yeah? They actually right here in the banner. Let me just quit make quick mention. I'm not going to display the aners because I don't want to lose what's in front of you. But guys,

you know the drill by. Now, if you have a question, We're gonna try and stick to our outline tonight, but if it's relevant to what we're talking about, throw it in the super chat and at the right time. Might not be right away, but at the right time I'll make sure to put it up side the chiefs see it. But for now, we're gonna go to our first question, which is to follow it. What is your command philosophy on handling a may day? Do you delegate that responsibility,

continue to run the fire or handle the may day? And we'll start with Chief Croker in the bottom left. Okay, well, what's my philosophy and handling a may day? There is no greater dire sense of urgency on a fire ground than to deal with a may day. That is the greatest

emergency that somebody in command is going to face. If I am the only chief officer on the scene of that incident, my fire incident now becomes a two part problem because I'm dealing with the fire must be dealt with, it doesn't wait for us, and I also must deal with the may day,

So I'm going to have to deal with both simultaneously. However, if that rapid intervention response has arrived and is in place, the actual may day scenario is going to become the responsibility of my rapid intervention chief and my rapid intervention truck. They're going to deal with the may day. Everybody else on the incident Commander's orders are going to switch over to another frequency, and the incident commander is going to run the fire while the rapid intervention chief runs the may

day. So that may day scenario is technically delegated to that rapid intervention chief once he arrives and is in place and conducted his three sixty of the incident prior to the arrival of that. If I'm the still alarm chief as we call in the City of Chicago and I'm the only one there, I'm going to be dealing with that may day myself, both aspects of it, the

fire and the may day. And it's extremely important for whoever is in charge of this incident and running this may day to reel everybody in get this situation as under control as you possibly can. It's a situation where it's going to be more chaos and radio traffic than you can possibly imagine, and you have to reel all that, and you have to do it in a confident cool, common collective way to gain the support and the confidence of everybody involved,

especially the individual who is the subject of that may day. So I mean that's kind of how we handle it in the city of Chicago. But until that help arrives, you're technically running the fire and the may day aspect of the incident excellently. Well, right, Chief Tom Well, I concur with everything you said. It really depends on where we we are in the stage of the incident, the amount of the resources that we have on scene.

But I want to just take a step back and remind specifically the firefighters and the company officers how important it is for them to be able to when declaring a madea to give us that information. Too often we hear firefighters and we're not getting the information because they're on air and they haven't practiced being able to deliver their location, the unit, their name, their air that they have

available, and that any resources that they might need. But exactly as you said, Chief, we will if I have a chief officer that's available and a rick engine that's on scene, I will delegate the responsibility to them, and reminding everybody else on the fireground that important radio traffic is what I'm looking for. We need to be able to handle things at the appropriate level the

leader's intent. When we know that there's an emergency, traffic or may day that's going on, we don't need to be talking on the radio about everything that's going on. It is up to us in our policy. As you said, per my direction, the answer the commander will switch everybody to another channel. There we have an actual RIC operation that's in place, so I have to different with the fire attack or the fire component and the RIC operations

chiefs. Steve, Uh, Well, okay, I don't know exactly, um I say, how these other departments work, or exactly what rank you guys are, whether you're battalion chiefs or above. But when I if I'm at the operation I already had, there's other chiefs there. I would never be there without at least two other battalion chiefs on scene already before I get

there. So normally, uh, I would I would assign one of those chiefs to t handle it, and I would use the what we have we call the fast unit, who's already on scene also, and then I would you know, we'd transmit the signal ten sixty six and then get additional units to replace that fast unit and then have you know, to have the fast unit that was on scene team up with the battalion chief that's already on scene. I would switch whatever his duties he's he's doing at the time to become

the team leader for the may day. All right, God's got anything to add to that, kid? Yeah? The uh. This this concept is obviously has different dynamics depending on where you are in the country. For us, and we're a smaller agency, you know, we're only going to have a couple of companies on scene, so as being an incident commander on a few of them. If a may day is transmitted for us, it may fall solely on me to try to run the entire operation unless I have an

extra chief there. We we run two duty chiefs on that are on twenty four hours. And if this during the week you have sorry, I heard somebody's ring. If if we're lucky enough to get an extra chief or something like that, they might be able to help us with that. But as far as it may day does get transmitted, we we'll actually separate the channels. We'll put the may day on this will stay on the main channel and everything else, the entire operation will get moved to another tach channel so we

can solely concentrate and have separate channels to concentrate on that may day. But just to add to it again, it's really depends on the resources you have on seeing you have three other chiefs here that have heavy resources, and it really plays effective for those small departments that may have the resources to delegate what

and or have somebody else handle the may day. As from the chief of perspective one, All right, before we get to the second question, one thing I did want to add, and if this question was answered previously, I apologize if it sounds redundant in nature, but is we talk about preparedness in the fire service and really emergency response as a whole. Nerves get in

the way. People get excitable, especially in the situations where your colleague is in dire peril and it's easy to start stepping on each other on the radio. As you guys just alluded to. Is there training like there are for other jows in advance to where we have a member down. Here's how you

control yourself. Here's why we talk to one another on the radio. Here's how we make sure that we don't make the situation worse by getting too excitable and stepping all over each other when that member is trying to clearly transmit their meeting. Well for starters, I mean there's a big long order and a big long standing operating procedure where I came from and when I earlier explain things, I wanted to keep it brief, give you some of the nuts and

bolts of it. But yes, absolutely, it is right at the top of the list in the agenda. Everybody has to reel theirself in and have especially what's called a radio discipline. Everybody and their brother wants to get on and has to say something and wants to be part of this, and it just it can't happen. You have to reel yourself in that incident. Commander. I mean, I've been involved in may days and the first thing and I said, is I ordered radio silence, okay. And when I order

radio silence, I get a grip on the incident. I find out who's got the problem, who's got the may day? As was mentioned, who has the may day? What company are on where you located to the best your knowledge, and what is the problem. I've identified four big things there who are looking for where they might be at. I've established communication and I

know what the problem is in a cool, concise manner. You gotta speak with confidence, and you gotta reel this guy in and you got real people in to understand that the incident command or the guy who's running this incident, if he's not cool, common, collective, what kind of confidence does that lead everybody else into, Especially if you're the guy who has the problem established that contact, they still sound your past alarm, conserve your error. We're

coming, We're gonna get you. If you're lost, you know, try to find a wall, search the wall right or left, what's on a wall at door window, which might lead you out. But again, real everybody in get radio discipline and gain instill the confidence and be cool, calm and collective in your demeter, in your order and direction. And that's going to help that individual involved in at may day immensely calm is definitely contagious.

And again I apologize with the question was we done? That's a very good point because if you remain calm, the person you can do communicating with will probably remain calm. If you're excited, we all know it. If because somebody gets excited, it just amplifies and amplifies and it gets work. So somebody's got to maintain a level head, right the guy running the incidents out of his mind? Why does it make you feel? Keep Steve? What is the I know? The what do the backup show? If I have?

What does that? I forget if they hit the I believe if they hit the pass alarm? Right, what's the thing that the backup aid honors? The SIMS unit you have if you guys have do you have scot packs and if they forget you have Scotts? Right, yeah, we have Scotts. But we're talking about the from the handy talking on the radio. I can't remember the name of it now. Yeah, yeah, now that you said, I can't the Yeah, it'll come to you later you're watching.

Yeah, I know, but this is hit the pass along. You want to hit the you know on the handy talking, you want to you want to hit the may day signal, which we call attention button. And then and then you could see what member that is and what position he has. Correct Right after I was gone, Yeah, we have a it's a Scott Sims unit that tracks air pressure when they get to a certain point. I can withdraw them from the scene if I want to and monitor the rap pressure

and things like that. And then when the pass the ice get activated, it a senseil for alarm with the truck. So maybe similar to what you're talking about. I just don't Maybe you guys pull something, but I was. I can't remember the helly cool now. But at least if you know what member it is, you know what company it is, you can find out to the first, second or third year an approximate of where they are

right the four bobs, the five floor. And I don't know, and I don't know, you know, because it's been it's been two and a half years since I worked. I don't know exactly what they're using now, if they've gone beyond what what they were using when I left, you know, because they're constantly working on on different things and um, you know, when when you're not in the job. I I don't know what you know,

what they've gone beyond? Um now, So I can't tell you exactly what they're you know, up to date, what they're what they're using. But I know what you're talking about. I can't think of a damn word. Uh, you know matter a matter of fact, Chief Norman said, uh F false e A s ef it is, yeah. But Chief all right, truth be tall. Chief Leave probably with these questions, I don't want to sound like I was so smart, Chief Leap having some of these

questions. I'm not telling question. That's the same question, right, there's still is the same one. Questions ahead, Mike, And by the way, Chief Leap, see you soon anyway. On to the second question. On that note, as a chief officer, do you commonly participate in drills with your companies under your command? Chief Tony Tom Sawyer Joson, Uh. Absolutely. I think it's one of the most important things that chief officers can do to stay connected to the troops, make sure people are staying in their

lane. I use it as an opportunity as as an assistant chief to mentor my battalion chiefs that maybe Kentucky a battalion drill, just to stand in the background and pick up on tidbits of information of it I can pass on. I think it's super important for the troops to see you there, to be contributing and providing some you know, some of the experiences that maybe things that you've learned in the past, and the answer the question that we get quite

often is the why we do things a certain way. We in a in a department that is very traditional, has have done things the same way for

many years, but the why part of it has faded over time. And I tried to pay attention to that and pass that on and so during drills instead of just going through the motions for the companies and especially for the battime chiefs, I think it's one of the most important aspects of the job as a supervisor is to be present and to watch and observe their training, Right,

Steve, I agree totally with what Chief thomp said. And also one of the things is like after an operation, you know, you want a critique it a little bit, you know, and uh and you know, especially if especially if you see a few things that you know that you think need to be critiqued, and uh, but you want to do it in the you know, the way they they tell you, you know, start off by being positive, highlight the things that you know that you you know

that you were happy with, and then kind of you know, kind of meander a little bit into a few things that that you know, you know, I possibly ask somebody to explain something that you know that you didn't think was, you know, like why did you take this action or why did

you do this? And and you know, and uh possibly give some alternate uh you know things of you know maybe well maybe you could have done this or maybe you know, but like I said, when you're doing it, you have to do it in a in a way that's not going to get

anyone's back up. You know. UM. One of the things that I used to do, uh, I don't know, like I say, different departments at different things, but we have um annual inspection every year in uh you know, once a year we go to every house and we do an

annual inspection. And I would always come when I did the annual inspection, and while I was inspecting the house, I would give the guys in the truck one sheet of like a like a test and the guys in the engine, and then once I was done with the house, we would go in the back and we would talk them over and I can say basics of uh, you know, what you should in an engine, basics from a truck, and just go over everything. Because just what he was saying before,

a lot of the basics, you know, uh get forgotten. And I would tell guys all the time, if you know the basics, you can improvise, you can you know, you can move on from what you have to have those basics, and you know once the basics are down, because the basics are just you know, they're not hard fast, steady rules, but they give you the underlying knowledge that you need to, like I said, to take a little bit further and you know, extrapolate on that,

on that basic information. But if you don't have those basic six it's it's hard to do m gons well for me, as you know, if if you don't know the chief of training. So I actually get to participated a lot of drules, not only develop and create them and whatnot, but I actually go out in the field and participate with the crew. But we all know the value of and somebody mentioned it earlier as far as the buy in the respect all the stuff that comes with participating with your crew, the trust

that's built, um, the value on this is priceless. So I would say, yes, I could. I can do this kind of stuff and have done this stuff with them. Really shoot and sweet Mike, what do you like? Do you like the funny Gons or the like. They're very intellectual gons. I don't know which guy. Who's this guy? He's usually still play shit like this. Now I'm ready. It's not enough to be handsome, it's not enough to be a similar thought. I gotta put me

on the spot like that. I'm trying to come across as intelligent as you said, articulate very well. I just didn't know who you d Oh wait, I got a hold. That's the strip club, Jesus. Let's get back with professionalism. Yes, chief Chief Crook. Are your view on this? What's your take me on this? I take on it. Well, I'll tell you what so. Yeah, you have to stay involved, especially if you're a saying until in particular battalion. I mean, those are the

people that you work with every day. Uh, you are the oversight. If there's something broken, it's up to you to fix it. There's something or performance is subpart, it's up for you to fix it. You need to know how well the members and your will say battalion are our trained and what they're capable of doing. I don't think that there has to be well, we're going to go out and drill an hour today. We're going to drill two hours today. I think we're going to do it over a couple

of specific things. And as long as you can show me that you can meet and achieve the level necessary and whatever it is that we're doing, I think we're good to go with that. UM. You know, having trucks, do engine drills. Avengine guys do truck drills. Have have firemen, um, you know, trying to lead that drill as well while you oversee it. You know, people who are going to be perspective officers or or leaders in the future. To to be able to confidently oversee a drill and

train and learn from it. I mean, I think those those are all good things, and I like to to really kind of stick more to the basics as what's mentioned. You know, in my time in the fire service, most of the significant injuries and most of the line of duty debts, you know, after all was said and done, was some breakdown in the basic firefighting principles or procedures. It was nothing you know, that extravagant or

well involved. They were lapses in basic principles of firefighting and training. And I think that's where we tend to go most wrong or come up short. I don't think it has to get real in depth or fancy. Sticking to some of the basics is some of the things that mostly keep us out of trouble and better achieve our goals and objectives. So that's some of my perspective

on it. And can I just follow up and what you were just saying, it's it's fascinating how you hear all the time, especially during drills, of people wanting to do things that are outside of the norm or outside of the box. And my message to that is you have to become very good on the inside of the box before we ever start going outside the box. Keep it simple, stick to the basics. That's a foundation of everything that

we do. And there's a tendency and although it's boredom or people read stuff from from other places about what they think is better than what we do, but we need to be really good about the simple stuff and the stuff that's inside the box before we go anywhere else. I'm great, I like that, all right, Mikey, what's nice path? All right? So we'll go to the third question, which is the following, what are your excuse me, yeah, what are your most decision points for calling for additional help

or transmitting additional alarms. I think Chief Steve's thoughts this one, right, Yeah, Yeah, Basically what I always did was anytime that I was using everybody already that I didn't have any reserve, I knew, what you need more help. As soon as everybody that you have on scene is already being used, even even if you don't think you're going to need them, you got to call them. There is there's lag time that you know, you you have to think about the you know, different things and at any any

minute something could go wrong. So you want to always make sure that you have somebody on scene, you know that you're not using everybody already. And I can say, uh, you know, we're a larger department, I realized, and you know, some others and you know, things are different. But where I worked to you know, in the area Queens where I worked, the further east we went, you know, we had companies that

were spread out, you know, a fair distance. So I was always very leery out there, you know, even you know, because we did a lot of private dwelling work out there. Uh, you know, as soon as everybody was being used, I wanted to call for somebody, I don't care if I had to turn them back. I would tell guys all the time, it doesn't matter. They're getting paid, whether they get used

or not. You're getting paid the same amount of money. And uh know, if something goes wrong, I don't want you know, you don't want to be playing catch up. Absolutely right. I heard a couple I don't know where I heard it from a few times doing the show. And you're from the seventies, so you would know, or even even before that mid seventies, early early seventies, sixties, the chiefs didn't want to bang out

a second, right. It was like, well, now you're talking about New York City Fire Department specifically when you say that, because at the time, the chief of department, Chief Hagen, that was he didn't want them transmitting differental loans because all the civil unrest that was going on in the city, or they were trying to keep numbers low. They were trying to, you know, artificially make the numbers lower. So if you bang that extra alarms you will get you will call down. And you were told, you

know, you had to just keep calling for extra units. You know, you you'd have like a third alarm there and never transmit even a second. But they didn't want you transmitting those alarms because they were trying to keep the numbers, you know, which is its very similar to um, you know, you have a somebody at a fire who gets uh significant injuries, right and in the New York City Fire Department, if he doesn't die in twenty four hours, he's not considered the fire death, which you know, it's

totally he died from the fire. But during the sixties and seventy in order to keep the number of five fatalities down, that made and then and they never backed off it since. So at a well, what becomes a fatal fire, you have you know, ten forty five as a signal in the New York City five apartment and different codes one, two, three, and

four. So if he if he's not dead, he doesn't get a code one, but if you get a code two three, whatever, if that person lasts more than twenty four hours and then dies twenty four hours after that, it's not it's not considered fatal fire in the reporter or anything. And it's slowly like I say, for numbers of keeping fatalities lower, and they just never walked it back. They did a lot of things in the seventies and sixties to manipulate the the burning down of the that's what they know,

manipulated everything, you know, they weren't. You know, there was a lot um re gentrifying by burning the people out of their homes. Go back and you can look at headlines and you know, from those you realize, I mean how much destruction was going. You were having you know, fire bombs, you know, bombings constantly in New York, I mean construction sites,

uh, you know, all pipe bombs. You know, there was a lot of civil unrest and it actually, um, I think today I'm not sure if today is the the the date in sixty eight where RFK was shot, but it was in June um but from from April fourth into June of sixty eight, from when Martin Luther King was shot into I mean, the amount of civil unrest that was gone in this country was you know,

the burning I mean in all the major cities. You know, I say, if you go back and you look, you know, really, you know, tremendous amount of damage and you know, we had neighborhoods that were blighted. Then I totally. You know, we don't have those things now, but you know, just I mean the entire neighborhoods that were destroyed and they were just you know, it was just part of what was going on. Then yep, yeah, I got something good, bro. Yeah.

I just wanted to focus on the chief googler on the first part of the question calling for additional help. And I don't mean to detach in any way, and I'm not trying to. But let's say it's not a fire, because if it's a fire, we know who, we know who the agency that's in command is going to be every single time. But let's say it's a mass casualty incident and you're sharing command with other agencies in New York City

for example of course NYPD, OEM and so on and so forth. How does that alter or effect in any way how you go about calling for significant for additional help, I should say, because if there's a significant presence of other agencies, does that change things from a chiefs respective on the fire Department. Well, first of all, any time that we go to a multi agency incident, which we do, we get we get involved in mutual aid, we get involved in other things, even in the city of Chicago.

We are in sole command of our personnel. So I mean we will always organize and participate and help other agencies is the best we can. But if we're involved with it, and I think we need more help from our aspect, but I will get it. Nobody is going to have the oversight and take control of my personnel. I am solely responsible for their well being.

And that's kind of the way it is. Well. We organized together from a unified command position as it's called, to decide what type of resources we need, if we have enough, if we need more, But the way we operate, I would be solely in charge of of the resources that we supply to speak. What about the original question, your decision for calling additional help with well, okay, so my ultimately at the top of the scale of my decision to call for help is at the incident commander, is what

am I doing to my personnel? Okay, there's a lot of things that get involved with that doesn't have to be incident specific. I could have a work in fire and I could also have those some of those same companies working under two second or third fire of the day, and these guys are spent. I'm not going to kill them. I Am not going to hurt them. It's my response ability to see that they go home safely. If I

have to escalate the alarm to relieve those guys early, I will. Weather conditions have a lot to do with it, whether it's hot or whether it's cold. For instance, insignificantly hot weather, a two line fire, I'll escalate the alarm. Am I called for unnecessary resources? Absolutely not. As we expounded on earlier, whereas Chief Steve did, we have reflex time. It takes time for those companies to get there. I want them there. Should I need them, I will bring them in, I will stage them

two blocks away. And if I don't need them and I don't relieve companies on a scene, I simply strike out that that that particular incident and send them home. Weather has a lot to do with it, especially the hot weather. We're all wrapped up these days in bunker gear and what have you. Not. You got some companies on that scene that may have been to more than one fire already for that particular day. I'm sweating like a horror

in church in the command post. What is happening with those guys? Heat is probably heat stress is probably the most critical factor that a firefighter can undergo. Somebody involved with heat stroke, it's probably fatal fifty percent of the time, and for the fifty percent of the time that they survive Oregon failure may be imminent down the road for them, they will probably have health issue right also, So brill, my number one reason or decision is for my people.

But when you get down to the actual incident itself, we give size ups. Okay, We're required to give them every fifteen minutes until the alarm is brought under control, and every thirty minutes thereafter. So I tended to give size up early. And I wasn't doing it just for a radio presidents.

I was actually listening to myself. When I'm going five minutes, when I'm going ten minutes, when i'm going twelve minutes, I'm going fifteen minutes, I'm listening myself, and the incident is no closer than being brought under control fifteen minutes later than it was then when I arrived. There's a message there either change your tactics or call for help. Okay, So that is

another case scenario. I mean, the obvious is when you got a whole out of fire when you arrive and you don't have enough people to begin with. But if the incident is in progress and you've been there ten or fifteen minutes and you've made no progress on it, something's got to change. And those guys can't work forever. So get them the relief, escalate the alarm, stage accompanies. If you must change your tactics, do whatever you have to do. As a chief officer. The one thing that you should not

be guided by is rhetoric or peer pressure. All right, you're responsible for that incident. If you think you need help, you call for it. If you think you need to escalate that alarm, call for it. All right. You're responsible for those firefighters. They're safety and their well being. And the last thing that I'm gonna do is I'm gonna overwork a firefighter to death. I do not want that on my personal resume. So that's my take on it. Right, Chief God, we skipped over. You did

this to Tom Tony. Go Tom Tony can gone? Then you know? So I a combination. Really, if everything has been said Stephen right off the bat, I need somebody else at the command post. If I've used everybody I'm gonna I'm gonna escalate it. But the other factors, um, how long has this fire been burning, what's the building type, the construction features in the smoke, volume, velocity, density, and color of smoke? Has have we not made any progress in some amount of time. I

can't be thinking about the now. I have to be thinking about five or ten minutes from now. What have we done and have we made any headway

or not. One of the decision points that I used to use as well was an interior fire attack chief of I've assigned somebody to the interior cruise and I'm getting solid intel from them, And the one phrase that always used to get me was high heat, zero visibility, unable to locate the seat of the fire, and I'm in a position of watching what's going on, and I will use that as a decision point about making that either escalating it or

changing tactics of some type. So there isn't like a you know, an always in an effort, But there's all of these factors that come into play. Size, type of building, volume of fire. I use smoke as a key indicator about what this thing's doing and where it's going. To prompt me in the right direction. Smoke is the predictor of future events, my friendly So yeah, but but just you guys, everybody had got port of great things. The only thing I'm going to add to it, as we

touched on a little bit with building construction. For us, it's the weather for sure. Down here in South Florida. It's it's hot all the time and encapsulated in that gear, it's just everybody gets fatigued rather quickly. So if it sounds crazy right on the initial alarm, I've done it before. I've asked for a couple of extra units. The second we call a working fire where it's automatically sends another engine and a rescue which is an ambulance by

some other areas, they'll send that an NF. I feel that I need more, which at that point, which all these other factors that we take into account, we'll call a second alarm with the alarm as necessary. But the target has is where I was going. With the elderly community that we have here. We have large buildings, mid and high rise. It hous a lot of elderly and once those buildings come in, it's just made immediately. If I'm looking at the MCT. They're saying that, you know,

ports of smoke, et cetera. Those little key factors. I'm just going to sending them anyway because you know they're gonna work. It's gonna be labor intensive. For us down here is like a smaller agency and the reflex time and getting some unse from way ways of way to the scene. So that's pretty much all I have. Mikeys into the next question, which is the following, what are your decision points for moving from an interior attack to an

exterior attack. There's no exterior attack we we talked about, and I'm just kidding down a well. For us in South Florida, it's um our building code and building construction down here, and the West coast might be very similar because of the hurricanes that we have and it kind of cuts off probably North Palm North Palm Beach maybe a little bit further where we get some match sticks that start still being built up that way. But for South Florida, have

the hurricane andrew Or building codes were concrete for everything. So Ruman content fire in some areas where we think it's going to stay to a Rouman content fire may not be that. But if we pull up, you have heavy fire showing and there's really no signs of salvage or like you know, our tactical priorities life safety. Obviously, if there's no signs of saving the building, then I'm not even going to go to an interior attack and make that push.

We're just going to get and try to write the building off and then go exterior again, depending on what life safety is kind of coming into play for the most part of it, chief, Yeah, I mean right away, arriving on the scene of an incident the first thing that I would do. Again, we talk about building instruction, how extremely important it is in

the fire service to recognize exactly what you're dealing with. And so with that being said, when you identify the type of structure you know, fire resistant, ordinary would frame noncombustible milk construction, you should have a complete and thorough knowledge of what kind of burn time do these structures have where their structural stability starts to become compromised. And of course you should always error in a sight of better judgment with that and give big a lot of lateral lead away with

that. But identifying that type of structure and the kind of burn time that it has is critical. Once you've committed people interior wise, especially as a chief officer, you should be watching and reading that building. Where was it at, where did it go, and where might it go and end up? Now? Extremely important is it's been discussed, is the art of reading smoke. That will tell you so many things about the nature of your in

and where it is going. The faster and darker that that smoke pushes out of a structure, the hotter the pushes behind it, the more of a flashover and backdraft potential there is. You've been operating in these structures for fifteen and twenty minutes and you are not making any progress, and that goes back and in addition to I talk to you about my size ups and the radio

size ups and listening to yourself. A combination of being in a structure interiorly for x amount of time, making no progress, reading that smoke, known where your fire has been, where it's at, and where it's going now are all indicators or whether it's time to back out or change your tactics, or do both of those things. If I can add to that, it's just a little quick comment would be that if conditions and actions being taken on

the inside, I'm not being reactive or changing on the exterior. That's probably where you're going as far as having that you know the conditions, they have to match what we went inside for attack. If you're not seeing results on the outside, okay, then you get every thinking about changing your extra plane.

One thing I want to add to that is when in doubt, and this has been kind of the rule in my department, when you're questioning as to the conditions in the interior and on the roof, when the interior is saying one thing and the roof guys are giving you another picture of it, always be guided by what the roof guys are telling you. If the roof guys are telling you it's time for us to get off, they don't belong

underneath. If they're telling you that conditions are not favorable versus what you're hearing on the inside, it's time to get off and it's time to get out. So we have always been led to believe that the people on the roof that are reporting those conditions to your decisions should be made by what they report to you rather than those operating on the inside. Great points I think number one is what phase are we in the life part of our priority here?

Do we have any knowledge of people still being in the building. You know, it's our responsibility to be able to push our troops to that point, and we're the ones, as the instant commanders making that decision. About the biggest reason to pull troops out would be that we've gone past the known life, the primary searches have been done, and now I move on to the building, the type of building, the size of the building. How long

have we been operating for. If we've been operating and all of your points and we're not making any progress the roof companies, if I've got companies on the roof, if we're not going to operate on the roof, we shouldn't be operating below the roof. And so if they've made that decision, it's

leaning us in the right direction. I hate to keep repeating myself, but reading that smoke, if we're getting information from the interior of one thing, and we're seeing hostile, hard pushing black smoke from a different location in the building, and I'm just getting additional resources on the scene, it may be

a time to change the tactics. And to another point, how many times have we had cruise interior to the building and we've decided to change our operations from interior to exterior, and the interior cruise are saying, just give me a little bit longer. Ye always still, oh no, I never heard that. Yeah, And then they side they go, holy shit, I didn't know what looked like this because they don't have their Their world is very

much different than what we're trying to absorb. And it really comes down to the position of incident commander in that moment, tip of the spear, make a decision, be firm about it, be calm about it, and we'll regroup and come up with a different, different plan. Chief Steve Um just just going back to the FDN WI because that's that's my only practical experience. Um. You know, like I said before, I was never the first due chief on the scene. I was you know, the fire had had

been under way before I even got there. So one of the things that when you talk about the time is that you know, I have to remember when I get there, the fire has been burning at least five ten minutes to start with. So one of the one of the good things about about the FDNY, which they started about ten probably about ten was they constantly updated you on the time the fire was burning from the initial uh you know, when the first unit game came on a scene and transmitted the working fire that

started the clock. And like I say, you know, a lot of different factors come into play when you're you know, you're on you don't realize maybe how long it took you to get there to start with. And you know how so having that dispatcher constantly remind you, you know of the time of that fire, I found to be uh, you know really you know, very useful information that you know, so that you never lost track of

that. You know, like I said, you get to the scene sometimes and a lot of different things are happening, and and you're not realizing that

this is this thing's already been burning fifteen minutes. I just got on the scene, and you know, maybe I don't see you know, well, once I'm told, you know, and not it's twenty minutes, even though I'm on the scene for five minutes, but twenty minutes is still in Twenty minutes is a tremendous amount of time nowadays, exactly, so uh, like I said that that uh from Mike say, from the perspective of the deputy chief and the fd N, Y who who you know, I'm not on

the scene initially, I'm not there. It takes me from time they you know, they transmitted to to me getting there, and depends on what how far I am. So that I found out to be uh, you know, very good to constantly be updated on that so you never lose track of it. Who more or less makes because you were a battalion chief at one time, who may ultimate decision? Bati chief? I said you were a battalion chief at one time. Yeah, but a long time ago. I'm

just saying, like I'm sure they can. But a battalion chief can pull everybody out and start next theory. A company officer can pull everybody out if he's only if he's if he's the commander. U seen who who was in command on the scene has you know, can can direct the tactics. It just so happened, like I say, normally in the fire department and in

the FDN. Why your first new units include a battalion chief, all right, so I know not every department you know that that's that's you know, not the un initial ticket that you may not get a battalion chief depending on

you know, the department size and that. But every you know, working every response ticket in the FDNY re engines two trucks and a battalion and you know that, you know, so the battalion is on scene from the get go versus you know, unless they got called for like you know, something that would you know sometimes or you'll get a response, you know, like say, uh, you may get a one and one for a brush fight you know, supposed to be brush or its supposed to be contact or something

right right, So I'm like, you get under scene and it's a working fire, then you could the lieutenant could be in charge, captain, you know, depending on who's who's manning those two units. But whoever's in charge has has the same authority. You know. He may not you know, have the amount of experience, but he had that particular it is up to him to make that decision. Yeah, There's been plenty of officers who dropped the second when they got they you know, they get under second alarm on

arrival. You know, you know, if you have you know, you basically know you know, if there's two buildings involved or you know, multiple floors in the building. Those are you know, our signals for you know, automatic uh transmission of additional alarms. It gets to be a woman fuzzy sefn allow on arrivals. All right, Mikey, Well we're halfway through. Here's the fifth question of the ten and it is what is the greatest piece of advice that you can give to a new chief officer? I think you

a chief crooker? Wow? Um, I mean there's there's a lot of ways to go with this. Obviously, you know, as a chief officer, uh, you have to be game ready. You have to be extremely knowledgeable and and trained uh to every level of alarm or incident that you are are going to go to, and you don't know what that incident is going to be that day. You have to take advantage of every possible training opportunity you can as a chief or anybody on a fire department for that matter,

to better yourself and to stay up with the latest tactics and technique. But what I also firmly believe from a personal standpoint, as a chief officer or even as a company officer, those that work under your command must have absolute trust in you. Okay, they must trust you, all right, you have to be firm, you have to be fair, but they must trust you. You know, discipline was not really in my repertoire. I was an officer since nineteen ninety three. I never wrote charges on anybody. I

tuned people up in a different way. I didn't feel that there was a need to hurt anybody. My goal was to take somebody who was maybe not making the grade or subpower and do what I could do to make them better and to rise them to the level of ability or to bring them up to that level where they should be and be in that starting lineup. But I think training to the best of your ability at all times. People have to

trust you and the decisions that you make. And also last, but certainly not least on the list is I've also been a firm believer that your career should never come ahead of those that you lead. Decisions that you make must be the correct ones, even if they're unfavorable. But I was never one for letting anybody in management overreach or overstep and make an attempt to embarrass or harm one of my employees. And that's just something that stuck with me,

and I learned that early on from people who had mentored me. So I think it's a combination several things. There are a lot more things out there, but but as a chief, understand that you're you're responsible for everybody and the ultimate goals to get our people home safely and healthy the next day and always air on the side of better judgment for our for our people that we

lead. Chief Tom Tony, I think one of the first things I would say to a brand new battalion chief was the clock runs differently at the command post. You want information, and you want it right now, and you're not going to get information right now. You have to get You have to trust the companies. You have to allow them to execute the plan I call it. Let them run the play. What they don't need is you in their ear all the time trying to get an update from them and try and

get more information. Be patient. I'm not saying not to ask questions, but what I'm saying is to realize we all have to remember back to our day. Is the first time stretch in the line as a company officer or getting up to the roof or interior, and you have a chief officer that wants more information, well you don't have it yet. So what I'm saying I would say is be patient, trust in your companies. Second kind of a just from a mentoring perspective, something that I picked up on with brand

new battalion sheets. Establish a command post and keep it at one location. Stop wandering. You're going to be curious about what's happening. Maybe on the fireground, but crews are looking for a stationary command post. I want you to stay in one place, be visible, and provide some level of organization words not paragraphs. When you are asking for information, it shouldn't be you read the chapter in the book. Keep it very simple and basic, and

ask for quick updates and your follow up questions. Shouldn't be asking for so much information that it just absorbs the radio. I think sometimes we get caught up on just wanting to know it all. You're not going to ever know it all. So you have to trust your companies that they are executing where you've sent them and that they're carrying out the task. If they need something,

they're gonna ask you for it. That's the other thing. If if you have somebody responsible for an area of a building, then you put them in charge of it, they're going to ask you for things that they need. Don't give them resources, just dump the things into their area because you have somebody that's available. So if you're gonna put somebody in charge of an area, trust that they're going to ask for what they need already. Chief Steve Well, one of the first things I would say is you have to

make the mental adjustments. Understand that now you're not in charge of a unit scene, and you have to a lot of what I've seen is with a lot of new chiefs, they want to still be the company officer instead of being the chief officer on the scene. So you have to tell yourself mentally that you have to step back now, all right, you're not a company officer, and it's just like it's just like the change from being a fireman to an officer. You know, you can you can be two types.

You can be two grades of company off. You can be a lieutenant and a captain and they're similar, all right, But when you go from fireman to officer, it's a big change. When you go from company officer to chief officer, it's a big change, and you have to come back and step back and understand that you're not running a unit anymore. You're running a fire. So you have four or five six units that you're that you have

to take care of. And like I say, you're not there to do a you know, you know, to force a door, to stretch a line. You you can't get involved in that. That's not what you're supposed to be doing, all right, So that I find for a chief, a new chief officer, That's one of the things I would tell them that I think is the most important. Remember what you what you are now.

You're no longer a company officer. You're a chief officer, and now you have to run the entire operation and not a unity just stole your thunder. But ahead, bro, that was a big point. I was gonna just say that same exact thing. But just now you have to force yourself to take a step back and look at the big picture. You're responsible, as you just said, Chief, You're responsible for everybody, not just the five individuals or four individuals you have on your rig or maybe that's coming up.

It's it's definitely an adjustment mentally for a lot of people. And just to touch on a couple of things really quick is to always continue to perfect your craft. This is a it doesn't stop learning because you put that white helmet on, you know. So it's absolutely you have to continue to take the classes, do the training, and be involved in the training. You talk

about buying. Like I mentioned earlier. Trust, you know, you have to be out there with your crews and they have to have trust that you're going to go ahead and have their best interest at heart all the time and not put them in harm's way. So you know that that takes a lot. So basically that's what I have for that much we did. I'm going to chime in with one coming from a fireman's perspective when it comes to chief, and I can use my brother as an example, and I'll even tell

a story and mine is going to be be consistent. And one thing I could say about my brother, he was always consistent. All he wanted you to do was act like a professional drill where the correct uniform and act like a professional. And if your consistent all the time, there's nothing worse than having a chief that one day is this, then one day's dad and he's just not bagging. You find out he's you know, he's a hard drinking in the firehouse and you wind out, you find out he was a boozer

back in the day. You know, be consistent. So one day I tell the story. One day I get detailed to the truck where he was the captain in the engine and he was coming he was coming in at night. I was working a day tour in the truck. So I'm sitting in the house watch talking to another guy that I know, and some guy walks in from the edge and he don't know me. He goes, is that fucking Nazi cock suckering yet? And and the and the guy goes, oh, his brother, And he's like, oh, oh yeah, we fuck

around like that all the time. Man like that. Yeah he's dead now, God rest his soul. He was a good guy, right, You liked him? All right? Oh yeah, I love them. Yeah, so be consistent too. That's all great points. Yeah, Mikey, go for the next one, bro thing. Mike was meted there for a second. All right, here's the next one. Chief. Are you getting bit by mosquitoes? A lot of I was gonna say, yeah, I must be near the airport. I don't know why they were. They changed their

pattern tonight here. It's not a problem. They wanted to be involved in the show anyway, can you playing the value and importance of a chief officer occasionally speaking directly to firefighters to ensure the leader's intent he is understood by all. Chief Tom, this is so important to peel back the layers of misinformation,

disinformation and way people hear things, how things are communicated. I would on a daily basis as an assistant chief meet with my Bettigon chiefs, or I'd have five Bettigon chiefs in the office, and you know, after we're talking about the bs from downtown and the daily stuff, I always wanted to bring up, you know, something tactical or strategic or talk about some fireground. And I know, nine times out of ten, when those guys left

the office, it stayed with them and they didn't go any further. And that was always disappointing to me. But I would always barely consistently, you know, let's take a ride, maybe go out to the station and go observe a drillsome place and get the opportunity to, you know, follow up on what I thought was important that I talked about at the meeting that morning and see if it had made it out there, and not bypassing the chain of command, but just kind of closing the loop on maybe things that we

were talking about. We've talked about, you know, the art of reading smoke and building construction and stretching a line to the right in the right direction to the right location, and how you select the right lead. All tactical things, but you know they're super important. It was said earlier how important it is for for us as chief officers to trust that what you've asked them

to do is getting done. And it goes to that leader's intent, task, purpose, and state when I asked something to be done, is it going to look like what I expected it to look like? And that all takes place in an informal way, and going out to drills, going to stations and checking in and not bypassing the chain of command, always let the

battalion chief know where I was going. I didn't want to surprise anybody, but it was you know, we're in charge of these troops, right, We're in charge of them from the moment they come to work until they go home. And I don't want them to be strangers to me, and I want them to have an avenue for asking me questions. So I would provide that opportunity for questions and direction and just be us and just asking questions and laid it all out there. And I said it earlier many times it always

came down to the why. And if I had the ability to answer the why, or I had a way to go find out the why, I would take place at that level. Chief Steve, who's now endorsed from the Mosquitoes get well. Now, I went into us because I thought it got too dark and I was getting too loud. Yeah, I always like to talk to h to the men, you know, and actually listen. We'll listen to them and see what they you know, what they were thinking and

and all. So to to talk to them because you know a lot of times you get the you get the feeling like, uh, you know that they don't want to open up because uh or say something because they feel as a barrier between uh, you know, the chief and and a fireman.

And you know the truth. I mean, years ago, years ago, there was now now now there's really not, but years ago there were um, you know, you never spoke to a chief officer when I first came on, and you know you used to actually try to go past his office and hope he didn't see you you know, um, but uh, you know you want you want you want to get feedback from them too, just as much as you want to say something to them, you want to get

feedback and see what you know, what possibly what their grievances are, what you know. Uh, it's it's better to go direct and sometimes to go through a filter. And I can say when he's talking about chain of command, I'm not you know, I would just consider these things informal, you know, just informal, you know, conversations to uh, you know, just to get the feel for things. Would would you talk? What would you say? Would you talk to fireman who may or may not have been

driving you? And when you wake up in the morning sitting out of the Death Death naked with his bunk of boots on doing paperwork? Would would you talk to a guy like that? Allegedly? Honestly? Every once in a while you run, as Jago I was telling the guys before you got out of the show. Come on, you didn't laugh as much when I was there. You never laughed that much. You know, are you what funny?

There's no doubt about it. You were very funny. Yeah, Um, I agree, because we've suffered a lot from the lack of communication in my agency and in this area. So that again going back to the value that consistency, making sure that the correct navative narrative is spread to their out the department. That way they understand what everybody is. You can knowledge what

the membership might be upset about. Maybe we could make a change at the administration level to keep everybody, the troops happy and stuff like that, but just to keep it simple. So I don't take a lot of time, but the value in that is again it's probably another priceless thing. So you have the continuity and consistency of a certain message that we're trying to send and still again confidence that we're there to support the troops. Chief Mitch, Yes, sir, you're up. Well, yeah, fellow, I'm up,

I'm up. Okay, well yeah. If there's anybody on the fire department in Chicago, that and more of an open dialogue with firefighters than me. I'd like to know who it is, always open to them. I always wanted to hear from them, always want to talk with them, always want to see what their thoughts are, what's going on. I want to be in the level that everybody understands the goals and objectives for the fire department or something particular that day. I had no problem being approached. I had no

problems with questions being asked. I had none of that. I think there's a certain level of of a personal relationship that you need to have with dialogue to also develop that trust that we talked about. But I do think that, you know, I've been approached a million times about things over my career about for instance, let's just say, is it okay if I do this? Or is it okay if I do that? Or would you mindus? And the answer is like, don't ask me. I'm a chief The answer

is no. You know, you put that on your company officer. Something's going on here or something I don't need to know or see. I'm not coming around tonight. Get my drift. That's all eyes on the company officer. I would get asked questions, I say, no, the chers No, don't ask me, don't bring that to me, don't approach me with that because I'm not supposed to know about it, you know. So those are things or as the discussions that they should not have with a chief officer.

They should deal directly with the company officer on it. Other things that are important that the chain of command should be followed. But I believe in that personal dialect between a chief officer and firefighters and engineers and what have you not. I think it's important. I think it's important. But as Steve said, you go back in the day, nobody ever approached the chief and he's corrected. You walked by him and hopefully he didn't even didn't see you

be there. But things have changed, and I think if it's keeping in perspective, there's nothing wrong with it. I gotta tell you, I have never heard more stories about a chief conducting with Tomfoolery like I have with Chief Crook, with the stories that we can't stand limitations over. As I said previously, ninety five percent of my career I cannot talk about. And even after I'm even after I'm long gone, if they find out, they'll dick me up and prosecute me. One other thing on that, I think it

kind of for me. It wraps it all up. When people stop coming and talking to you and asking you questions, it might be time to move on. Yeah, I mean, I think that would be something to pass on to a brand new battalion chief is you have to be approachable. And I'm not saying that every grievance in every process, but when people aren't coming to you as a confident, they're trying to gain some knowledge from you, and you're isolated, it might be time to rethinking what you're doing. Find

out an opening line that you can approach them with. Like the chief Steve was, if you talked about the Mets. So if you tell them that Hillary Clinton sucked, you were in bro. He started a conversation with you right away, no problem, I am lying right well. Before I get

to the next one. I just wanted to interject real quick. And I can't speak to this personally, of course, but I do remember Vinny Done telling me this when I interviewed him last December, where and this line is stuck with me, where he said one man can't make a fire scene safe, as he specifically added, one chief can't make a fire scene safe. And all that was to say he wanted that collaboration. Of course, he

wasn't saying disrespect or go past the chain of command. If you had a lieutenant that you could talk to you right on the spot, or a captain you could talk to you right on the spot, do that. But he was never the type of guy at any instant that he was specifically in charge

of to shun a firefighter away. If that firefighter had something valuable to bring, or had something pertinent in that moment that he felt he could answer, he always welcomed that and sometimes listen, approachability and availability, as I learned from my conversation with him and other chiefs over the years, they go hand in hand, and so. On that note, we can definitely go you

know, that's a perfect segue into the Mike Cologne. Uh what about the Colo report that's coming back the Mike the Newhaven podcast, which we can talk about a little bit more at the end. I don't want to, of course, step on these questions, but I have a little little announcement therethy beautiful, the beautiful segue, indeed, and that on that note, we can go to the next question, which is what are the top three leadership qualities a chief officer must? All right, chief, who's up? Just

pick somebody? I think Chief Steve's up? Go ahead? All right, Well you mentioned one before before. Consistency, All right, Um, I mean in my career, I never liked anyone that you didn't know who he was that day, you know, and people could be so very you would like that, you know, you couldn't believe it's the same person. So consistent like this shoveled or something like you know their personality, oh the personality

right, consistent with your personality. Don't be you know, completely different than you know, like I said, and from day to day consistency of your personality. Another thing I would say honesty. And the third thing I would say is proficiency. You have to know your job, you have to be proficient at it. And then you throw in those other two qualities of being honest and being consistent. I think those three I think will be fine for

your career. Gon's three for you, kid, I have well, the common ones we always have or your courage, integrity, leading by example, being empathetic. Those kind of ones always stand out for when you talk about leadership qualities, other ones when you interview whatnot. Those are the ones you always hear a lot about. But something I'd like to add to this a

little curveball, which Chief Steve brought some really great ones. As well as being a good strategic thinker, you know, being able to size up a situation and process to correctly. You know, again with all the stuff that we've just talked about up to this point, Being a good communicator, being able to communication again another topic that we hit about it continually looking to improve.

You know, just because you get to a certain level doesn't mean that that, Like I said before, all the information, all training stops. You always want to get ahead and better yourself. That way, the trust and all the great conversation that we've had all is going to kind of come through, I feel at that point with those three. So that's really what I have, Chief Mitchum. Yeah, a lot of what we've we've we've

already talked upon. Absolutely thoroughly knowledgeable in your profession and know your rank, throw and throw and also understand and be cognizant and keep at the top of your game plan at all times. Be humble, Never think that you have it down, Never think that you know this job too much to ever call an incident routine. The routine incidents are the ones that kind of bite us in the ass. Nobody, none of us have this job down. If any of us think that we have this job down, time for us to

do something different. So always be humble, Always understand that danger lurks within, don't get caught up in it. Don't be complacent. So be thoroughly knowledgeable in every aspect of your job. That trust factor comes in. The people who are working under your command must trust you. They have to know everything and believe everything that I just told you. All of those, all of those factors. You do have to be a critical thinker. And those

are just some things from a philosophy point of view. Tactically, I think a good definition of somebody who is good tactically is a chief is to be able to respond and pull up to an incident, see exactly what he has, see where it's been, see where it's at, and see where the incident must might be going, and be able to read that incident for the future, and tactically set up for that incident early in the future, so

that when alarms are escalated, that we're knocking moving things and shutting things down and tactically having to make a compleinte turn around what we already do. You have to have those things in place for the next escalation of alarm, so that when you start putting other companies to work that the process just flows and you're not reshuffling the deck. You have to understand how to read that incident and set up for the next level of alarm without him and a reshuffle the

duck. You have to really look into the future of that alarm and see where things may be gone. But just off the top of my head, those are some of the things I believe that will make you a successful chief officer. Some of the qualities and I think you need to obtain and have chief I think the three qualities that I always drive for were trust, care,

and competency. I think trust is a two way street. You want to provide a level of trust to people that are working for you, and you would like them to trust you have you have their back and the actions that you're taking in the decisions that you're making is in their best interest, in the best interests of the people that we serve. I think the ability to care not so much on a completely on an emotional level, but the people that work for us, we have to care for them. They're under

our command, they're under our tutelage. There's there's a you know that that old adage you know everybody that you is working for you. You want them going home tonight or tomorrow morning, and so you have to have that level of care for them, not being flippant, not making decisions that are dangerous or outside of the norm. And Chief Steve, you said it earlier, proficient, I say the word competent. You need to be competent in your

in your craft. You need to stay on your game, remain contemporary whatever you're doing, to keep in the knowledge of contemporary firefighting. Because I tell you what, the new generation has access to information right now. And if they're going to ask you a question about something that's going on in the fire service, it's nice to either be with them or one step head of them to be able to answer that question. And competentded at your trade no matter

what gets thrown at you. The ability to fall back on one of two things, policies or common sense, and to be able to execute based on both of us excellent. We got a guy, mister Fitz's names all the way from Sydney, Australia. Check it in. It's Patrick to see it, John with a fifteen hours ahead of us. So right now it's twelve in the afternoon over there in Sydney. I believe the hell are you doing at twelve in the afternoon listening to these knuckleheads? Yeah, alright, Mike,

what do you got? What do we got left? We got? This is yeah, this is two counting this one, of course, And this following is to the eighth question of nine. The eight and West Coast have different philosophies. Ain't that the truth? Regarding roof ventilations? Can you articulate your strategy on roof operations? I think Gonza's up there, all right,

Well it's easy. I say, it's easy for us, but it depends on residential, commercial, large structure and where the where the fires in Florida, we don't really for residential homes, single family homes, to story whatever the case may be, we don't. We don't look to put people on the roofs right away. Just what the barrel tile roofs that we have, they could potentially be slippery and whatnot. And and for us, there's really no need to be that aggressive. We do a more of a horizontal

type of attack or ventilating through windows, et cetera. Before we put anybody up on a roof. Commercial we may have to do the same thing. I haven't done one and ever in my career. I hear about trench cuts or trying to stop it from from the ground level, just going down a couple of businesses and trying to get it up in the roof that way.

But we don't do a lot of roof work and where I am, so it's uh, we put a lot of people on the roofs unnecessarily, mister crooker, Yes, sir, uh well roof operations, Yeah, everybody. Here's the disclaimer, so let I get my head bit off, so everybody is completely aware of this. That Chicago, where I come from, we have no mandatory SCBA order operating on roofs. So in other words, we don't wear SCB iron roofs normally. That's optional and you'll rarely find it.

The only time that an SCBA should be worn on the roof where I come from by order is a one ply roofing system. Where that one ply system is very flammable and it's very toxic when it off gases. So that is really the only time that you're going to find an SEB and a roof where I come from. But we are big into roof operations. It is my personal belief that you know, ventilation does what it is supposed to do. It aids in rest, It aids in finding victims, It aids part of

fighters to find the seated a fire. It aids and prevents back drafts and flashovers. It reduces physical damage in the building it u it tends to, by by nature and by definition, kind of isolate and draw that fire to the whole to ventilate that that hot toxic gas. I think ref ventilation is extremely important. We are big ref ventilators in the seat of Chicago where I come from. And it's absolutely necessarily a trench cut was mentioned m trench cuts

are great way. I use trench cuts routinely on residential structures, and the reason for that is you can make that trench cut all the way from that ridgeboard are down to that gutter line, and in doing so, you actually get a bigger percentage of a gap to reduce or to to let those hot gases and smoke out. And most importantly, you capture that dreaded knee wall which tends to be a significant factor in the spread of fire and flashover,

which causes him in a danger for firefighters. Ventilating roofs. So trench cuts are pretty big where I come from. You know, we're big roof ventilators. And those are some of your more experienced personnel, people that you trust. People work in that position technically unsupervised. In other words, they're never unsupervised. That chief officers supposed to have his finger on that pulse every aspect

of that operation. But the fact that a man or is there's those people on that roof have to be knowledgeable and what they're doing, and they have to recognize situations that would cause them to get off as wall. Well. Um, yeah, all four roof fennilation. Alright, So so now that we know what you do on a roof, what are you doing a roof? Um? We talked and when we go to Yak, I said,

my dad was from Boston, so a lot of that East Coast. The accent was in my house on a daily bas so roof roof Chicago, jack off, jack water water. Yeah, roof operations is a absolute priority in San Francisco. UM, either a member or part of the first or second truck company is going to be going to the roof of almost every fire building for a couple of different reasons. Most of our buildings are connected, so you're not getting through one side of the building or the other to get observation

of what's happening in the rear. Generally, my first report of what was happening in the rear of the structure was coming from a roof report. If it is a top floor fire on the flat roof, my expectations is for that truck company to coordinate with the interior cruise and open up. They are going to be doing all of those things that Mitch said earlier were have the ability to control the fire, control the direction of the fire, prevent a

hostile fire event, preventing life, and fire extension. All of those things are absolutely a priority and very much in favor of roof operations on a peak roof structure. Same thing you have to remember in San Francisco, most of our buildings are our post nineteen ten, nineteen twenty we had the earthquake and

nine you know, six that burned down the city. So the homes that were built in the tens, twenties and thirties, we have a lot of balloon frame constructed buildings, and we know that we get to fire in the balloon frame constructed building where that fire is going to end up in the attic space. So I need a truck company up on the roof to evaluate if we do in fact that fire in the attic space, and if necessary, to coordinate with the interior cruis to open up and very proud of our roof

operations and our ventilation tactics, Steve. I agree with both Mitch and Tom, and I also agree with Mitch as far as when he says that, you know, the roof man, he is operating unsupervised, I mean in the sense of that there is nobody directly looking at him. He's under the supervision of his chief he's under the supervision of his company open, but he is working without actual visual supervision. And so they're going to be performing there

up They're going up there and they're going to ventilate the roof. They're not going to be told the ventilate. They're gonna ventilate the roof. But the only time where and I don't know how your departments operate, is in a high rise. He's not going to be in the high rise. He has to communicate with the chief officer at the scene before he ventilates. That I mean the bulkhead at the at the roof level. Right, we can't just be having the roof man go up in a high rise and ventilating the bulkhead

until he's told by the chief officer in the scene. But other than that, everything else, like I say, the FDNY is also a very aggressive roof cutting and the roof operations department, and I, you know, I agree with trench cuts and uh, you know, a big cut over the main body. And I agree with all the reasons that they said. Of um it could I could say, except I just wanted to add that the

high rise roof operations are different. Can I do one more thing? And I think reminding me about the high rise operations and one thing that I'm gonna I'm gonna say I said that last time, I'm gonna say it again. Positive pressure ventilation has no place on the fire ground for initial actions that a structure fire. You're not able to control where that you're pushing that fire. You don't know where the victims are, you know where the exit point is.

I'm an absolute, absolutely against the use of positive pressure of ventilation a structure fire. I just wanted to touch on for us down here in Florida's say, location on the fire and building constructure kind of will dictate. Like I said, for oh, we have a lot of concrete jungles, things are cubes, so really everything can stay is compartmentalized. Obviously it's in the roof, it's through the roof. There's no reason for us to put it

on there. But for us, a priority for roof ventilation doesn't always happen. We've may do a go to a Horozonald method first before we're trying to put somebody on a roof. But again, we don't have the building construction, the large structures. We have a few things, but mainly residential and kind of mid rise type stuff. But it's it's there if we need to, but it's not something that we did go to right away. I want to make sure people are a little clear on that. Okay, right mikey

okay. So that leads us to the final question. Please and here we are fire services always evolving, so this question is always appropriate. What do you do to stay current and sharp to maintain your skills? Who's up? I don't even remember. Let's go with Chief Tom. I think that there is Let's go back, you know, twenty five thirty years where we waited

every month for fire Engineering or Firehouse magazine. Show up right, we're reading random thoughts and it took us that amount of time to wait for the next edition. Here, here we are in twenty twenty three, where we can find out what's going on, you know, right now. So I think right off the bat, following the appropriate people on the various social media sites

of uh, dat stature, stop the leaving start knowing. It's just the ability to look at the trends of what's happening in the fire service, uh, you know, on the downside of things. Uh. And it's part of our profession looking into the line of duty deaths and finding out the factors and what was a contributing factor, what commonalities exists. It's readily available through

uh you know, social media and then eventually through through NIASH reports. I have been a fire service instructor for over thirty years, and I think for me to stay contemporary and to stay connected to the fire service, I love nothing more than being connected to my students through the asking of questions. I do company author and keep officer classes and you know, what they are experiencing is different from what I experience, and they be able to come together and

solve problems together and and to stay connected. Is is the my ability had been my ability to maintain my skills and my professionalism. Steve. I concur with what Tom says as far as uh, I don't. I'm not keeping my skills up as I should because I'm not using them anymore. Right, I'm not an instructor, but I definitely agree with with the way of keeping up is to use the technologies that are available today, which you know he

talks about. You know, Firehouse magazine. We used to wait for WYF, which was quarterly used to come out and uh, you know you look for a department order to see if you know, anything had changed and the latter bullet and any change that had come down or things like that. Today, even the way they study when guys are studying promotion, they're studying off a computer and don't off technologies, and uh, you know, just just

the way it is and every other profession and everything else. It's the technology. You got to keep up with the technology to keep what's going on. I would just want to add one thing, um uh you said about reading about fivefy to deaths One of the things that U in an FDNY is every time there's a death, there's a case study done of it. And you know, in the last thirty or something years, it takes them almost a

year to come out with a study, and they do it. And one of the things that I always wanted to uh to tell myself and to uh to force myself to do was that when you read when when you read these studies, they will break down what happened to the far you know, what's the cause and you know. And I when they would come out with with remedies and then we they would write bulletins and they'd said, all right, like and I'm going to use this example. Uh, many of the case

studies they read, even guys will we either hurt or killed? They found that they always lost their helmet during the operation. So hence they came up with the chin strap, so you know, um, and that cut down it. But my belief was, after I read these case studies, I wanted to make sure that any operation I was at, that guys didn't get hurt or killed over something that we already had addressed and that we already had so called solution in place, and that I didn't want it to be a

cause that I wasn't going to be. I wasn't you know, it didn't have the discipline to make them do these things. I didn't. I never wanted it to be like that. I let things go because you know, you want to be the bad guy. You don't want to be you know, you know, breaking guys, breaking guys balls about the certain things or

whatever. But like I said, after every time you know, you read a case study or something, I'd say, well, you know what, no one's gonna get hurt doing that at an operation that I'm in charge of and on for Like I say, you do get a lot of resistance and it takes it takes discipline to do it, but you know, so be it. So maybe like a cheats might be frowned upon. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he might say that I have a couple alright, gods, go with it, all right. I Um, being in training is u

it helps you. But more importantly, I think with staying on top of your skills, for anybody, whether from the firefighter all the way up, it's a it's a mindset you have to want to be and perfect your craft at all times. So just staying up on current information, whether it's through technology, reading an article, or you're watching videos, because I can't tell you how many times I watch videos just to to learn and stay on top of things. Or when new information comes out, you have to learn about

it. Like we talk about EV's. Evs are taking off like crazy right now, so we do a lot of kinds of crazy training. So I can absorb all that training and end to ghead and delivered to the department to make sure that they get it. So these are just a couple of little things that the networking, everything that that that's involved with the training aspect of any agency. How much you have to learn to maintain your skills. But go back to what I said before, it's really on the individual. They

have to warm to stay sharp. If not, we could sit here and then do all this and say it, but owners goes on the individual. I want to make sure that the on top of their game at all times. All right, Chief Crooker, Hey, well, first of all, things have changed. We're talking about it right now. That the modern age of technology, if you will, back when they came on and true studying for the battalion, chiefs, tenants, captain's engineers, all the way up

to battalion chief. The books when you stack them on top of each other, that was about six feet off of the ground worth of information. You know how many milkcake crates of books did we carry around to study and pick this information up. Now you click one link on a department website and it opens up every possible conceivable piece of information tied into your department. You go to a search engine, you could look up anything anywhere anyway you want across

this country and find information about what you're looking for. So you know, at the click of a mouse you could find those things that we could never do before. So what do I do to stay current? I don't I retire, So that's what I do. Anything with the Fire Service, just like Steve, we both do nothing with the Fire Service. However, going back something that I like to do. First of all, make a disclaimer that there's nothing routine about the Fire Service, nor should they be. We've

discussed it. I've made this point a couple of times. Tis that complacency and thinking things in a routine will get you in a lot of trouble in the course of your career. So don't ever get complacent. But what I like to do in downtime is I like to try and stay sharp on the

things that were very low probability, high risk. Stay up on ASTHMAT, stay up on active shooter responses, stay up on high rises, and stay up on all the special operation disciplines that there are so that when you are confronted with those incidents that you rarely deal with, that you can successfully carry out that operation. Recognize the dudes, and you're not going to be a professional at it. You're you're going to be a professional, but you're not

expected, so to speak, to know that entire scope of practice. You have to recognize all of those different disciplines, be trained to that level of response, even though that they are not frequent at all, and recognize what you can and you can't do, and recognize the appropriate level or response that you're gonna need to get the right people to carry the incident out. And

that's part of being a manager. You're not going to be one hundred percent proficient at everything, but that's why you have a management team or other researchers to pull from to meet the goals and objectives and call the right people and

get the right response and to solve the problem. But in my downtime, as I said, I'd like to kind of zoom in and zone in on those things that were not frequent but post a big risk that I could understand and identifying and keep keep people out of harm's way until the appropriate level of response was called for. So Chief Tom, I went already, but I'll go again if you we did. Did Gon's go too? That's good? Yeah, I guess I didn't want very much. Did you zone out?

You're not paying attention to That's all right. Maybe the whole thing full of vodka, I don't know. I don't know. You are drinking bourbon. Don't you to see it? Standard? So I stopped. We had a couple more questions that came in that I didn't send, and he came from a certain chief who's on the job now, who I might or may not, may or may not have worked with as a fineman. He's a shooting star. He wants to know why do chiefs have alligator arms? Yes?

I don't know any more. Damn beer, lot of it? Yes, answer that not me. I do arms for chiefs. Negative when I work over time, I buy the guys shakes all the way around, of course forty five a clip so the no alligator ROMs here? Why what shakes the guys like shakes every once in a while shakes? Yea ice cream shakes. I make a little run of ice cream. So look at you in their packet. The other the other question is from this certain individual that mayor may

not rhyme with Frank leep is Chief Steve. How do you stay so good looking over the years? I disappear with my brother, I look better. Stop you're hurting my feelings. Now you really not do this? All right, Mike uh, let's play a lesque sponsor of the evening before yes, say goodbyes A word now, of course, from our friends over at fr CE. The First Responders Center for Excellence is not for profit organization dedicated to

protecting the lives and livelihoods of first responders. Their education and research initiatives aim to bring greater awareness and understanding the challenges to the health, safety and well being of firefighters, EMS personnel, and other first responders too. They are an affiliate of the National Falling Firefighter Foundation and Tonight's health and safety tip of the Evening is early chance of detection Saves lives. Make an annual medical appointment

today. I'm gonna give you too. There's another one following a fire shower as soon as possible before cleaning the tools. The sooner we remove contamination from the firefight is the low the exposure. Tool and equipment will never have cancer, a firefighter might. So reduce your risk and shout. They say, shower within the hour, Shower within the hour. Wow, I actually, uh, we actually clean our equipment on the fire scene, now, d

coon or whatnot. They stressed to clean the tools, clean the hose before you pack it because all that shit gets in your your shirt and it sticks on you even more sore. There's stressing to clean equipment before you bring it back to the station. Shower. I like to thank all four chiefs. I like to thank Gonzo's brother, the Smart Brother, for coming on tonight. I don't know. Evidently he's a twin brother who's very intelligent. I don't know who he is. I don't know about very but I appreciate.

I'll tell him. Patiate you guys coming on, Uh, Chief Steve, make sure you get out there and fillo his ATMs tomorrow. I appreciate. Thank you so much. Any Ponting words. Anybody have any shout outs? Yeah, I'd like to. Tomorrow is a twelve year anniversary of a line of duty guest of two firefighters on our job. I was the instant commander out a fire where we've lost Vince Perez and Tony Valerio. So I'd just like to raise a glass to Vincent Tony. Remember them book book, Great

people. I knew them both very well and it was a man. I'm gonna give them the five bells if you don't mind, Yes, for Vincent Tony. For Vincent Tony. Does that bell sound familiar, Chief Steve? Is that the one from pop Yep? That's the one from Pope? Yeah? Man allegedly. Allegedly, my mother used to ring it when it was time for lunch in the summer time outside our kitchen door. Uh what do we have on Monday? We have a inventor's corner, right, We got

a guy who came up with a really nifty tool. We got that, and I think on Thursday we finally have Bobby Bob Stock. He's been he's been to a couple of fires. I think he was in one twenty uh where else does he rescue too? One up, two, A couple of places he saw some fire A couple of them shout out too, if you get a chance again, uh two two of them. Actually for us, I'd like to acknowledge our new subscribers and anybody's been supporting us for this far.

We've we've reached over thirty thousand here and on YouTube as right now, which which I think is big for us. And one of my brother firefighters is retiring. Today's his last tour, Joe Captain Joe Russnello thirty one plus years with us, He's on his last tour, so I just wanted to wish him will in his retirement for him. Joe what Joe Russonello mean? Yeah? Another beginning me. Oh, look at Tom. Sarah Good is like yeah, one of my you know, out about it, one of

my friends. Yeah, you have it a door test kid. Yeah, listen, we're at thirty thousand. I'd like to get one hundred thousand brothers. And you put that YouTube plaque behind my wall here so to me fairly, just life and subscribe. It doesn't Callas brush or anything. Right, are you like and subscribe? Yet you subscribe to Chief Steve, You're not subscribe. I don't know. Look I think I did. We'll send you a link, my own brother, We'll send you a link. Just hit

the subscribe button. It doesn't question anything. I can't worry about it. I know you will. We have shot on, you said, I don't know if I have shot up the button. You just do one of these and hit the life and subscribe. Run you know what I mean. I'll tell you what here. Just scan that right there to scan that. It's right there. Just do it right now. Let's see second, Oh, let's see. I'll watch my own brothers probably not writing them at the middle

one. Get the one in the middle. I say that, Just sit subscribe all right? You aren't subscribed? Well you did. You helped out his brother, chief Mitch. Thanks for coming on, Bro, appreciate it. Thanks for having me on the Luffe Coast. I appreciate you coming on. Mike, uh gonza. That's it. We'll see you u Monday. Roofie should be back. Maybe. I don't know. Thanks talking to you gentlemen. I just think you just had a couple of things. Oh,

Mike, I told just shout outs, go get it all right. So the first one I actually wanted to give a shout out to the family of police officer Anthony Mosamilo, especially his wife, his widow, Margaret. May twenty six mark twenty five years since he was shot and killed in the line of duty in Brooklyn. He was a police officer in the sixty seven precinct. He died in the gun battle with the Paroli who didn't want to go to jail. So twenty five years later, Officer Mosamilo is not forgotten.

He was a six seven precinct cop, fourteen years in the job. Left behind two daughters, but Margaret's done a great job raising them. And Margaret, my love and uh and shout out to you this week. And the other thing is just real quickly because I know where all was a two hour mark yes earlier, I didn't want to talk about it because we were in the middle of the show. But after six months on hiatus and Mike the Newhaven Podcast is back. We're back on the air this Tuesday at seven pm

Eastern Standard Time. The first guest back after six months away is Jay Jonas, so very much looking forward him. That should be a pleasant conversation and I look for se l six. Yeah, Ladder six I think Chief Steve on bro I definitely want to and there's a certain chief in the check tonight wh will be on the show June thirteenth. I'll leave it there, so definitely some good content. Oh fl yes, he's coming back on the show. Here had I forget what data is. It's on the twenty second.

Oh look at Mike, you know all right, knows more to me. All right, guys, so we will see you on Monday. Until then, stay low and go all right. I'm the half Chief Steve Coopler, Tom Sara Goose and Mitch Cruker, Anthony Gonzalas and Vin Cooler and Mike Cologne and we we'll see you next time. Weekend. Everybody, stay safe,