GETTIN' SALTY EXPERIENCE PODCAST Ep:219 | FDNY COMMISSIONER THOMAS VON ESSEN

Disclaimer.

We'd like to know before the start of this interview that the opinions about to be expressed by the guest of tonight's Getting Salty Experience Podcast are that of the guest and do not directly or necessarily reflect the views of the host of the Getting Salty Experience Podcast.

You're listening to the Getting Salty Experience Podcast.

Hello, Hello, Darren DeFries. Who's gonna be busy tonight. He's gonna be my head on a swivel looking for guys who get out of line and kick out of this job. Welcome back to Get Experience Podcast. It's the only one that brings the firehouse kitchen table to you. And tonight, doozy man, we got a doozy. We got a guy on here who's I got more emails and texts. But you know how the brothers are bro right? Yeah? What of the What are the brothers like? But one of

They don't they would hate the way things are and they don't like change.

Right, That's the brothers. That's it. I was. I was on the beach after Louis posted that on our social media and guys would send it in these ship on Facebook. My wife is looking on him like these guys are man babies? What is going on?

I put the disclaimer too, you.

Did, right, I'm just gonna put a disclaimer right now.

That was a lot. There was a lot of good ones, a lot of you know, that's what everybody, You're not gonna we're gonna get. This is what we do. We're gonna we're gonna talk to the guy. We're gonna get some of the questions that people had asked answered because he's not afraid to answer the questions. Does I don't know?

In fact, the guy were trying to get on. Chief Pritchard said that he has no problem. I'm asking questions. He's gonna be tuned in. I don't know if he's in the chat right now. I'd love to put him against you know, right up to him and say, hey, you coming on the show. What Chief Richard? But he was saying, the guy answers questions. So every side has two stories. Every story has two sides. Right, just wait here to hear the man's side of the stories. Three

Pay for it, you cheap.

Yeah, if you got a question, put it up there and pay for it, will you. I'm on a fixed income. Paycheck to paycheck you, Speaking of which, Gonzo play some of the commercials so I can get paid. I can put food on the table for crying out.

Me too, Me too. We're gonna do New Jersey Fire first. Here we go.

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All right, all right, we'll roll one more. The commissioner knows that you know what's fine colt coins, So we got to do what we can. We got to scratch out some money.

These smirking emails.

Here we go Armor to firehouse Forlorn was recently installed in Station number seven, the newest of the Dacab County fire stations in Decatur, Georgia. Meeting Deputy Chiefs Myth of Support Services, Vince explained that Armour Tough interlocking flooring is the only floor that is tough enough to withstand the abuse of fire apparatus along with fire personnel at a very busy station. Chief Smith explained the flooring in all of our stations over the years gave us multiple problems.

There we go, guys. You're asking how how you made out in the storm guns.

Yeah, I got stuck. Wy don't you tell him?

He made that really good? He stayed with me for about a week. The kids will call him Uncle Gon's album.

It was a permanent fixture at the kitchen table for a little while.

That's all right.

You have a lot of water.

No, uh, you didn't.

You didn't get hit that over by you?

Then?

No, it was.

It flooded the north part of Florida and the and the Big Bend as they call it up there. But that's that area always gets bombarded. Man, when the storms come up that way.

It's I guarantee you that the hurricane wouldn't blow your hair out of whack, bro, that's for sure.

Trying to make sure I appreciate the comments.

By the way, I can feel you. All right, remind me we got to do health and safety tip towards the end. Yes, I'm leaving that with you, gotcha. All right, let's say it for I don't want to call him Tom. You want to call him the commissioner. You want to miss the commission. You're like Tom though, like you call kill Duff and right, I got to bring him in there.

You bring him in all for fd N Y commission to Tom von Essen.

He wanted.

To keep He said he had to keep his wits about him. He didn't want to get off to uh.

You know a bet you started up. You started off with a good name. Then killed Uf was top of the line.

There you go.

See, and I like to call him Louis.

Louis calls him and I call him chief killed Uff.

I don't know throwing whatever you want.

I n felt funny calling you Tom, he said, call me Tom. I don't know about him.

It's the voice. All right, let's do the uh.

Patriot, we gotta patriotic quick, here we go.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic, for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all.

And one other thing we haven't done for a while. That commission von Essen brought to our attention is our word of the day guns. Yes, today, his word of the day is.

I think that's what he said in the pre show. He's not going to drink tonight because he might use that word fifty times tonight, so cool is probably going to be tipsy and about.

I'm right there with you, so hopefully.

How many guys told you not to do the show, Commissioner.

Well, I told you my brother who always gave me good advice. He was three thirty two engine a delegate, and when he drove me for a long time, he said, do not do that show.

He said.

Those guys are do to show are good guys, he said, but you get some real blockheads and.

What about hairbags?

And he oh, all right, let's take it easy.

You just got here. First of all, thanks were coming on the show, even though your brother told you not to come on the show. Well, you appreciate it, Commissioner. He was always right too. This time he's wrong. We're gonna make sure his time he is wrong. All kyla, Shoot, I was watching too. He probably not watch I don't see him anyway. Let's go. Let's go back a little bit to the beginning, because guys probably don't know. Let me find you a little bit about your history on

Was anybody in a family of fiming or No, I didn't come from a firefighter family. I was uh in college and I was a real screw up. Screwed up a couple of times, got thrown out a few times. I joined an officers program. They threw me out of the officers program. I was in Submarines. So I went in Submarines for a couple of years, had a wife, a baby, another baby on the way. I came out. I really needed a job, so I went on thinking I'll go back to school now and study and leave

Got out in seventy, which was like the middle or what was that like over the war years? How was it over there? It was crazy.

I mean they say that the worst years were sixty five to seventy five. Those are the worst years I think in the fire service as far as fire doing so caught five you know, quite a few good years, and then you know, they were the worst years. But it was busy for a long time. The company I was in was an occupied area in sixty five, and then it became more and more and more vacant as the neighbors deteriorated. So it was the South bronx Halem

Some of the guys you had to weed out, right, they didn't know necessarily that they were in the wrong place maybe, or that those guys just you know, you know.

The funny thing. The funny thing about the fire duty you didn't have to weed anybody out because it was real easy to get out of those units.

At the time.

It's hard to get in, so when you got in one, you could easily get out if it was wrong for you. It wasn't all the guys that that left weren't bad guys. Some of them just thought like, well, what's the point here. You know, I'm getting paid a dollar a guy in slow houses getting paid the same dollar. What am I doing? You know, taking all the risks and everything. So the guys had to be a little nuts, But I enjoyed being with guys a little nuts with some of the guy.

You remember, Okay, I was just gonna say that.

You seenior guy there was? You know who was you seeing the guy was? Were there a lot of World War two vets that were seeing the guys there?

Yeah, yeah, well they were They weren't that old, you know, they weren't World War two vets. It was one of two guys. They kind of left. It was so busy that the older guys really left.

You know.

The old guys were like thirty five and forty an old guy. Then it was just so much fire duty. And they called the house the Elephant house at the time because the guys were so big. I was about, you know, six foot, like one ninety and I was tiny at the time, and guys are really powerful and strong guys. The house next to it, we were the Elephant house. The engine was Latasa Kaka, right, Yeah. The guys in the truck, you know, it was really a

That sounds about right.

Yeah, nothing changes, you know, that's it.

But did you stop becoming interested in the union and representing the guys?

You know? I I finished college, I finally got my act together, and then I got a graduate degree and I was going to teach. And then I started teaching, I realized I didn't like kids as much as I like my own kids. So I said, you know, the guys in the Union had asked me to run, and I said, you know, oh, I tried it, and I wound up winning. They were like eight guys that ran for Trustee and it was a runoff and then I won, and it was just I guess, just for a change,

So were you were? You were a delegate before you ran for trustee though, right, so what yeah, what made you want to you know? Where did that come from? Though? Just time?

I didn't I didn't want to be a delegate. The delegate was a senior man. His name was Werner van Helsing. He was about he's about up there, man. Yes, yes, he came up to me one day and he said, you're the new delegate.

And that was it.

He didn't want he didn't want to do it anymore.

So I was a delegate.

Yeah, I know those I used to get all that, like eleven o'clock at night, Hey, keV, because I was a delegate. Listen. I went down to the quartermaster. I'm supposed to get two pairs of shorts. The guys only gave me one pair of shorts. I'm like, you call me eleven o'clock, call me a eleven o'clock, me one pair of shorts. It really is a factless job. Man.

You get to the union and you see another side of the job. You know, right, So then you ran for what Brooklyn trustee. No, it was a Bronx trustee box.

I'm sorry.

Then it ran for secretary and uh. That's when I started getting involved in safety, which was really an eye opener for me because I always thought that as busy as we were, we really weren't interested in safety. We were we were very aggressive. We enjoyed the excitement, and I saw so many injuries and everything, and I thought unnecessary. I saw you know that, and we mentioned we talked about it before. The good chief, the conscientious chief, the

Right, well you when did you get to when were you in the union? From what years? You remember?

Like yes, eighty three to the ninety. Wow, we all got thrown out because we had an arbitration that we warned the guys not to go to.

Uh.

Nick Mancuso as the president at the time, he begged the guys not to go. Bruce Simon was a really bright labor attorney. He begged the guys he used to come to the meeting. Do not go to arbitration. Do not go to arbitration. You have so many perks in your contract that you know, you aren't even aware of. When you go to an arbitrate, all that all that shit disappears, and then you you're almost starting all over. We had battalion detailing. I mean, what a perk that was.

I want to touch on one thing that we spoke about a little briefly when you were talking about the chiefs. You know that the guys love like we talked about my brother a little bit, Chief Steve, and you wouldn't. You can't find a guy who loved the job more you did, like forty two forty three years, oh, there we go. And he was a professional. He loved the job, he loved that fun. But he was a professional. He wanted you away to the right uniform. He wanted you

So well, hold on, you could still have You could still have a good a guy who's less what's the word down the line or you know, and still yeah, less strict, and he could still be sure a great guy. I mean, it's not one or the other. But I get to bear somebody just because he Because what I say all the time is I know Steve not for I grew up in Kevin's house, Like I was in his house every day he had, His father was on

You know, if he did the right thing, you never had to worry about the guy. But they didn't like him, So I don't I never understood that logic.

Yeah, well it's I think it's pretty much systemic, and I think it's pretty much always been like that. I don't know the answer to it. All I can say is you the more work you have, the easier it is, I think to manage the guys, you know what I mean. It's when you have nothing going on that the guys become more of a problem, like they don't know what

So you know.

That is different. When we're really busy, you could have a few beers. I mean, so you didn't. You can understand the chief turning his head to that a couple of beers. You know, a guy's sitting in a place that doesn't have a run for twenty four hours and he's having drinking every time somebody says heir bag, you know.

You know, Oh, so I've got a real block.

You got my own problem. Keep the guys safe. You gotta have that balance. I think you got to care about them. You got to care about the training and professionalism. You got to think about the you know the excessiveness of injuries and everything else.

But you can still be a good guy. I mean you don't have to buy Oh listen, you got to take care of the guys in the end. I mean we'll just talk. We were talking about it in the pre show with you about you know, Kevin's particular situation and other guys like that's not by the book, right, So you all took care of the guys. You still took care of business, you know, and not to be liked, but that's what you felt was the right thing to do, right, So you know.

You know guys like killed off, guys like Pete Gancy, you know, they were there were a lot of good chiefs uh uh downy. I mean those guys that they knew the difference, you know, and then all of the other guys that were really strict that the guys were, you know, less popular. I mean Callan's in that picture. Calln was a phenomenal chief Alturi. Really they were good chiefs, you know, like and they were liked guys, I mean

You know, I think, Yeah, that's come to any officer is like that, right. When did you feel like when you were in like it was like a wake up call to you in the union when you would whether you were the delegate or when you became the trustee, When did you start waking up to that? You know the political side of all of that.

You know, the first couple of years there were just you know, servants and the guys. The trustee really gets down and dirty, just running all the injuries and hospitals and stuff. The drunks and and all that stuff, and then the secretary gets more involved. I got involved, like I say, with well, I met Chief Brunusini. I was working on getting back demanding that we lost even when I was secretary, that we were able to get back

Yeah, so now we were talking about like you were talking about, like you know, Guanty and all those other chiefs Calendar right, like you thought they were really good chiefs. But there are some guys who think that you have a disdain overall for chiefs. What do you say to something like that.

No, I just I don't get it, you know, I see it now. I look at people in Congress, right, you take an oath, you swear you're going to do the job, and then you don't do it. I don't get that, you know, I take an oath I'm going to be a commissioner. Well, I'm going to do stuff is commission The commissioner's job is not to make you happy every day, to bring you a nice warm blanket and hot shalutput. The commissioner's job is to keep eight million people safe and get you to do your job,

Horrible, horrible.

I think I think that I sent you guys a picture of that one where I got the headquarters and I got rid of half of them. They as people in headquarters running the job, in my opinion, terrible. I think that you can do a much better job with a young pure No. No, there was another one with von Essen becomes commissioner, gets rid of half of eighth floor.

That kind of oh the article.

Anyway, I had guys, I had a PhD in physiology that I had out in at a division of training. I had guys who who loved you know, who loved the technology, who loved the part of the of the job that we could help modernize it. Would you rather have a lieutenant with who's a marathon runner and he has a PhD in physiology? Would you rather have him

You know what I mean. But you.

Before we get too fat, I just want to say one question because I think get be wound up.

I'm sorry, I don't.

So commission, let me ask you this. So when you get back to the story with the chiefs. So it's the system. It's not it's not the guys so much. It's the system, right or no?

Some of those guys are great guys. Are you kidding me?

You know?

I mean, you want to hang out.

With them, You want to be with them at a fire You want to you don't you know, you don't need somebody that's running the Office of Information Technology and just say, well, you know he knows how to do Firefox.

And well that's what I'm saying. He's thirty years in the fire, forty years in the firehouse, he's in front. You know, he knows how to deal with guys men. You know, he knows how to do it. Now all of a sudden he's in charge of this. That doesn't make any sense to me, right, So it's not it's not their fault so much like I don't know why guys would say that you had dislike for those guys if it really isn't their fault because they've kind of that's the path, right, isn't it.

No?

Of course, well, of course the chiefs are gonna say on us and hates us because they just got rid of half of them in fire quarters, you know what I mean after September eleventh. They just went back to the way it was. So you guys haven't witnessed any changed in improvement and management. But you don't have to in the fire house. You just want you just want to be left alone and have fun and go lift weights and train and and have and have pone with

Let me let me just he's wound up.

Well, he's wound up.

Man.

I'm gonna just push back a little bit. Like you said, they should get rid of the deputies. But there are some good deputies at that. Like to think my brother's a good deputy who did not put up with overtime abuse, did not put up with medical leave abuse. Uh and and he and he ran a fire because I drove him my last year before I got out. I thought he was a great chief. So I think sometimes they feel like you're painting with a wide brush, like like all the deputies.

No, So it's that's the point.

It's not.

It's not the individual deputy.

Right.

Let's say there's forty deputies, right, those guys could be forty senior battalion chiefs and you could take the best battalion chief instead of having to take a deputy. That's the point. It's not the individual. It's a system. Now, your brother's a great guy. Added the forty deputies, there's probably thirty great guys. That's not the point. They were great guys maybe in managing the firehouses and managing the field,

But what I hear you saying is that that leaf to staff chief where they find little nooks and crannies to hide out. And that's the problem at the front light. It's at the front line guys who will going to fires absolutely okay.

And that was money.

Those guys are great guys. Those guys you have to have them for fires. I mean, God, you got to have those your chiefs who have been around. I would imagine a big problem in the department today is that there's so few chiefs that actually have fire experience, right, right, I mean I see a lot of the guys they came on in two thousand, they came on in nineteen ninety eight. Well since nineteen ninety eight, you haven't had

It's nuts.

It's not so we started fire safety education and fire prevention. Try to bring a civilian in to run fire prevent You can't have fire guys running fire prevention. There should be a fire chief there to make sure that this crazy civilian engineer doesn't do anything stupid to put firefighters in danger. Absolutely, But all these processes and everything else, that's a big business. Fire it's a big business. It should be run like a big business.

You know what.

They came up to me one day when at five inventions. They said, Commissioner, I said, I got a call. I told them, I said, I got a call that you guys won't let the Secretary of Navy land on the Intrepid. They said, yes, Commissioner, it's it's a museum. So I said, the Intrepid is a museum. Yeah, I said, so I'm going to tell the Secretary of Navy that he can't land his helicopter on the interpret because you guys say it's a museum. Get out of here. Put an engine

So this was the thing I wanted to ask you. It kind of segues into this so, I mean, even for myself, I think before you even came on, when we had the little issue with the with the computer, I was talking to Gonzo and I'm like, I'm like, why would they wouldn't they take Faifa? They took Tucket, right, And that comes back to your point, like do you feel like the guy who's the field is the commissioner or gal is the commissioner should be outside of the

I think, first of all, it's hard to generalize, okay. I mean, I'll take Safe for an example. He's comes to witness Protection and after Julian he gets elected, they bring me in and they say, we're going to do you a favor. We're going to give you chief what the hell is his name, good guy, nice guy. We're going to give you Chief so and so as fire commissioner. I said, oh my god, he's horrible. I don't want that guy. I said, he's a great fire chief, nice man.

So you feel like you would go that way, like you would lean more towards not having somebody that's been involved in the fire.

Absolutely, absolutely, but you need somebody who's compassionate and understands emergencies. I would have gone to military. I had recommended to Bloomberg and to Adams to go with a former military guy, because the military guys are accountable, but they also understand warrior mentality. They also understand people who put their lives at risk. I mean, she was she was a bad choice from the beginning. She was at the Blasio person. She took no advice. She she just hit her hete.

But they said her planner, that's what her resume was. She was a party planner.

She was just a real political You can have a political appointee, you know. I mean they used to be like that. Joe Bruno was was a judge. She became a judge leader on. Joe Spinando was a big commission somemer. Joe Hines was an attorney general additionrict attorney. So you've always had political people, but they also understood, you know, how to manage things. I don't think she ever managed anything.

You know. No, let me ask you a question, Commissioner. I'm now speaking about the optics of it. When you went from the head of the union to the commissioner. Do you think that that was bad optics? Do you think that was I mean, how would guys look at that as going from.

Well, how did that even happen?

Yeah? Okay.

So one of one of the reasons I thought I would do this show, one of these that before. One of the reasons I actually agreed to do your show, against the advice of my brother. I saw some of the comments. I saw some of the comments on a letter I had written to the Post, and one of them talked about how I committed treason, you know, And I thought to myself, you know, this guy might be a nice guy. He might he might have an IQ

He was.

He was basically a copy he was and he took I guess he took the fight upon it as you know, second choice.

But he was great for us, I thought.

And then so he calls me, it's like seven o'clock in the morning and he says, I'm going to PD. I start cursing at him. I don't want to curse now, and you can and I said, you fuck. I said, I can't believe you. You're doing all that. I said, but you've been great for us. I really appreciate all you've done. I wish you good luck. He said, there's another part to this. We want you to become fire commission. I said, what are you crazy? You're going to get

What's That's a stack of money in there, That's what it was.

It was. It was weird. So anyway, then I go over there, they they vet me out you know, down the basement all day and there's some really good stories about what happened that day. And the guys in the union were drinking all day and they weren't using the

Oh boy, I was gonna say, God, I had to believe the Bronx was on your side.

No, but I mean drink yeah.

Yeah, So you know, no matter, you couldn't please everybody, but I knew, and I think I sent you guys this one. You know, this talks about all the stuff that we didn't that didn't happen to us, because you know, there were so many perks that we got from me being in a position like that that the fight Department didn't suffer from and the mayor loved the fight apartment, you know, he really did. And you know, I think it was all positive.

To me.

It was the greatest job ever until September eleventh, and it was the worst job ever.

And why do you think they looked to you like you're sitting on the other side of the table, right, Why why do you think that they thought that you would be the best guy for that job? Oh?

I think they thought, first of all, I was smart, I was honest, I had balls, and they were The merger for EMS was in March, right, that I supported as a union president because I thought it was good for the guys, money wise, training, safety, everything else. So

For me.

I did it for selfish reason. I thought it would make our guys safer. I thought, if if someone was having a heart attack, if someone I saw how shitty an operation EMS was when they were at Health in hospitals, they were terrible. Tum Fitzpatrick a terrific Deputy Commissioner, and I went over to meet with Health and hospitals after I was commissioner. You would have thought they did everything, but ask me what EMS.

You know what I mean?

Like they had They were clueless on how difficult the job that people in EMS had and how little support they had, how they didn't have good amblers, how they didn't have good training. Most of them, I shouldn't say most of them, but an awful lot of people were really out of shape too. And so we tried to raise the whole level of EMS as we called out a lot of people. We started giving more training, make

In my opinion, MS saved firehouses too, right, Oh, I.

Was just gonna say that, cheap chief, I mean, commissioner, that was we would we would have been closing firehouses, no doubt. But during your tenure, I believe that you that you start one thirty three. Uh you also uh Jamaica Avenue too, Jamaica Avenue, that was my next one. Yeah, and let me get back a one new division and two new companies added rights two ninety four in Richmond Hill.

And the fire and the fifth Man.

Thirteenth Division yeah, right, So do you think that because we were doing more now with the MS that allowed you to open these companies?

Absolutely? Juliani was so supportive. First of all, I was able to make a good case because I mean, I mean, you can you can see I mean, you can hate me, but you gotta believe I'm telling you the truth. I mean, you know, I've never had a reputation for being anything but an honest guy. Maybe not that smart, but not stupid and honest, okay. And I could make cases to Julianni and everybody else for stuff that I was able

Idea was really slow. Yeah, you could say, you can say and again and again. So it starts because some of the chiefs are telling me, he said, boss, you know I can have a fire and have nobody at the fight and sell.

They're doing. This is really he says, yeah, and and and it's always in the best neighborhoods. It wasn't in the shitty neighborhoods. It's always in the good neighborhood The good neighborhoods always got the worst. Yeah, worst, excellent, I said, when we were when we were crazy in nineteen sixty five, where was the worst fire companies? College Point, white Stone, Staten Island, North Bronx, Eastern Queens. Really good, those are

Well that's how it was sold. That's how you solved it.

Yeah, it sold it. It was it was strictly it was all me selling it because no matter how much we we uh, I used to go through this at the union. You know, we used to sit with the ten guys on the board and we'd make all these arguments and we'd say like, okay, well we've convinced ourselves. Now we just have to go and convince the city.

You know what I mean.

It's it's it's great to sit in the firehouse and have all these solutions, but then somebody's got to go. The mayor ultimately is the guy who says yes and no for all this stuff. So we convinced them to do it, and it was just it was for now. And the best part of the squad is the way we did it. I don't know if I told you guys that, but we we picked five captains, right, good guys, Tommy Richardson, Dennis Uh you know really, uh, what's the

On it, right, Yeah, we were, That's what we were were.

Godde the Union wanted. So what did I do? I had it really fast before they could get to the arbitrator.

So I had the tryouts real quick.

Terry and Ray Downey are over there saying that guy's he's slowly ship, he's fat, he's that. We don't want that guy, we don't want it. So they pick all these guys and we wound up with a great group of people. I mean people who wanted to be in a busy place, people who wanted to go for more training, who wanted to work for Tommy Richardson or Jerry Tracy or Dennis which I don't know anybody that wouldn't want

Betch let me tell you something. You just said something that just struck a chord with me. When I went to what we all went to the squad, Dennis Murphy sat us down and just said said to us, listen, I love you guys. You guys are very motivated, but I just want you to understand you just put yourself in that much more harm's way because you're going to be going to everything. So that fact that you just said that, now, I'm like, holy shit, I can't believe

We talk about like on the other podcast, like in your career I'm sure it's even similar for you. You have like these sweet spots. You know, not every year and not every time is great, right, but there's a couple of times in there where it's a couple of years you're working with the same guys before people get promoted or they get retired or whatever, and you just

Yeah, yeah, yeah, but we still, uh.

We still you know, we were really into the job, and uh, you know, we talk about how special that time was because you don't get that, you know, the career is great, but there's really some good times every once in a while that you really look back and say, until you're you're done, right, you look back and you say,

But let's just throw this up. Here's a guy who doesn't want to put his own name in there. He just puts Hughes name. They didn't close firehouses, they just pulled the fifth man. I mean, here's the guy that they didn't. You're right, they didn't close firehouses bro and they didn't pull the fifth man from every company? Right, How did that work out cheap?

That was based off of medical leave? I think if I remember, what are.

You talking about? I don't know what you're talking about.

Some guy just wrote in the chat, who was not of who's not does not the balls enough to put his own name in there, said they didn't close firehouses, they just pulled the fifth man.

Oh you mean when we looked when we went to arbitration, Yeah, yeah, yeah, we lost uh one hundred and thirty companies. I think lost the fifth man. No, we didn't they didn't close firehouse. I mean they were closing fire houses separate from the arbitration, you know. Uh, and even catch apologize for the way they closed the tin house that time.

Remember they sent them out.

Oh my god, we've had a few guys on the show from that. Yeah, that was just there there. They're a little pissed off about strategy. That was bad, bad plan strategy.

I mean, when did that happen that they pulled the fifth man? Did this guy's ross the staffing? So it was an I guess in ninety Yeah, I guess it was ninety right with the arbitration, I think it was then the roster staffing was.

They kept sixty sixty of the busiest companies, right, kept the fifth man unless medically went down to like some ridiculous.

So Usana, who throwing that out there? Tell me what you what? You what your elevance is right there? Because you know it was ninety you weren't even the commissioner then, right? No?

No, I know, I had no, No, that was just you know, you're I was part of the union. Like I say, Bruce Simon, the attorney told all the guys, do not go, do not go.

We didn't.

And I give you some advice to the guys that are listening. Whether or not you think your union guys are terrific or they're horrible, listen to them.

You're better.

They're better to listen to them than to the kitchen table, because the advice you get at the kitchen table. And you know what I did when I was the secretary, I decided, you know what, I'm going to start sending the fire lines to the home because I wanted the wife to see it. Because my experience was that when you when you got the guys individually, very intelligent guys, a lot of our guys, you know, when you sit down in the kitchen with them, with ten of them,

I say all the time, the end of I remember going.

I remember when I first got involved with the unions. And you know, Nick was terrific, Jimmy Boy was terrific. Jimmy Boy was surrounded like with morons, but he was a good guy himself. You know, But you go to a union made it be four hundred guys, and it'd be a hundred guys, you say, like, holy shit, these hundred guys really are stupid. But the other guys were just laughing. In other words, they would never call a guy out and say, you know, you know you were moron,

If you want to be negative, right, it's like anything, let the negative steed. You're gonna get negative right here.

The guy that didn't close fires and just pull like that guy could be nice, you know, if you didn't have the balls to put it out right.

Put So I had to be nineteen ninety three because I got on in ninety three, and that's when we lost the twenty five group shot and we or the twenty We went to the twenty five, twenty five, twenty four yeah right, and then we lost the mini vacation and some other shit, if I remember right, like right, I only had that for like a couple.

Of he wasn't the commissioner.

Then, No, no, I understand, no, I got it.

I got half of it back when I was commissioner and that's a good story. You want to hear that one.

Yeah. Sure.

So we go to arbitration and Safer is Safer as the commissioner. I'm the union president. So we get this arbitrated. A guy named Arthur Gelhun, really distinguished old guys. I think he had been in the vers Sign meeting or something, I don't know. It was a real arbitrator, really smart guy. So he says to me one day, he said, you didn't convince me that all your guys, that you five men and all your companies. And it looks at Safer. Uh no, he said it to me, and then he

You know.

So he says to me, full of shit. My guys got there and we I got the decision and we won a decision. What he could have easily just shit candid and we would have to start all over again. He went to the mayor, and the may said make the deal, and we made the deal. We got back fifty companies, which was how was the phenomenal when one that's how that goes?

Huh?

Absolutely absolutely Gil Hunt died and they could have screwed us good, but they didn't. Again, wow, because of the relationship that that that we had, you know. So it's just you know, for a guy to say, you know, it's trees and this and that, they just they just don't get it, you know.

Oh yeah, listen from the brothers to get it.

So there was another one that I think we talked about it in the in the pre show. I was I wanted to ask you because that was like a hot topic in the chat and some of our social media things. And it seems like so long ago, but obviously it's still pertinent because there was some guys who died about the ropes. Right, So when when I had my I got my rope in nineteen ninety three, I

Oh?

Yeah, yeah, we The criticism afterwards was that I took them. I got rid of the ropes because of money, and that wasn't true. You can look if you look at any of the records from my six years as a commissioner, there was more money spent on on so many things that you you could never really think that it was because of money. The ropes weren't that expensive. We had spent all the money on bunker gear, We had spent all right on the everything, I mean, thermolimity, integrated trucks.

The ropes.

I got rid of them because doctor Bizan at the time and some of the experts were saying, you want to make the guys as light as possible. As light as possible, they were bulky. A lot of guys weren't using them. They it wasn't say that again.

Say that again. A lot of guys weren't using them. Absolutely nobody was using it was used a fact, and you.

Guys can say otherwise. But a lot of guys weren't using them. I don't want to say nobody was using them. I'm sure there were a lot of guys using them, and a lot of animalts of guys use them even when I got rid of them. Okay, But the unfair part of this was that was I think in so I left in December of two thousand and one, or let's say January first, two thousand and two. That fire was in two thousand and five, if I remember right, that's three years later. It was two thousand and five.

Fuck.

Let's remember if anybody's ever looked at that fire with frozen hydrants, illegal partitions throughout the apartment, guys being a of the fire, without a line, all, all lots of issues that were that were wrong, like many of our fires, like Watch Street, like Deutsche Bank, like many of the fires that go bad. Horrible tragedy happens. So let's blame somebody. Well, the best guy to blame is the the old fat

You know, what was that ever plans to get a better bag like at that time or was it always pushed after like obviously after after the guys jumped, and you know, we had you know a lot of scenarios coming with you know, I have.

No idea, you know, uh, First of all, like when I made a decision, he was already were already I was, you know, when I was gone, And so now it happens in two thousand and five, they have all these lawsuits and everything else, and I think they've they've gotten a lighter, better one since I hope, I hope it's good. But I don't know anything about all that stuff, right.

Yeah, Kevin was saying, like I know, I carried mine. It was a brick, you know, from Provo school, and I had it in my old turnout coat, and then when we got the new turnout coat, it was it was a brick, and to the point where I actually made my own rope, you know, set up. We talked about this. I appreciate Kevin and I A lot of guys made their own setups with their own little aides or whatever, just like you said, for that fact. But I never thought about, you know, writing to the job

I can't tell you like I had my own setup, which guys made fun of me all the time, bro other companies. When I used to carry the personal rope, guys used to hide it on me. You don't need that. What are you doing?

Man?

You know So I used to see guys who just take the personal rope. They'd be tied up their boat with it. They'd be highing and stuff in their garage with it. I mean, did some guys carry it? Yeah, a lot of guys carry it.

No.

I had my own system worked out. My friend Matt Neary, who've had on the show, who was a volley, He helped me put together my own system, which I carry all the time. And I didn't care. Even when I carried that, guys used to break my balls from other things.

Yeah, I would never criticize guys for taking an extra safety precaution if you don't feel I mean, some guys are lighter and quicker than other guys. Some guys don't want an extra five six seven pounds to worry about. It makes it makes a big difference. Maybe you get older. I remember as commissioner. You know, I used to go to a lot of fires and I'd be going up the stairs and you know, chiefs would be running by me to go up the stairs and you okay, commission Yeah, okay.

Well, that's all I was going to ask you, just now was it? What what was the reason that to get If guys were just keeping it well, then what was the reason like to stop it like altogether? Was it just.

You know, I.

We well, I guess it was. We had a we had to buy them, right, and we've made a decision not to buy them because they were too clumb, they were too heavy. The amount of guys used, so you made that decision. So if somebody, if somebody already had them, they had them or whatever. It wasn't I don't remember us going around telling everybody. You can't do it. I don't remember that, but I wouldn't blame a guy. I'm not trying to take any blame away from, you know, anybody,

Remember the scaling ladderader. Yeah, only in probably school. That's the only time.

Yeah, the only time you ever used So what you do, somebody's got something to say. Unfortunately for the ropes, we had that horrible tragedy. And uh, I guess the ropes would have been helpful at that particular job. I guess. I don't know. I don't I never knew why there wasn't a regular roof rope rescue, you know, come over the side of the building whatever. So it was just, you know, when those kinds did, they were just too they.

Didn't do it.

Chief Ibby, Chief Commission. Here's a guy who was he was at that job, Jeff Coole. He said the ropes and harnesses were taken away in ninety nine. There were thirty three documented cases that the ropes were being used before they were taken away. If they saved one guy's life, then it was worth it. That's just from a guy who's coming from who was there at that job.

No I, And he's the guy, if I remember right, that said I committed treason. But he's also the guy that said that he lost someone who really he really loved and he cared about at that fire. And I totally understand that. I'm sympathetic to that. All I'm saying is the thirty three times that that rope was used, I would like to see the documentation of the thirty

And even the system now the guys aren't using the thing all the time, Okay, I mean, I mean I've seen in her cases where guys aren't you know, now they have different systems. I think it's in the coat because it's a little.

Bit on the on the hip. If I'm not mistaken.

It was on the half. Yeah, it was on the half.

Now it's in the coat, I think.

Okay, so.

I'm not gonna you know, I feel very bad that that.

No, it's a bad situation, right, no win situation.

Right.

I mean, you know, Jeff that texted me and I understood, you know, he's pissed off, but we want to make sure that we know what the facts are. And I don't know what a good answer is that, even even after hearing both sides of the story, it's still not a good answer.

You know.

Well, if someone really wants to look at that job, I think they ought to look at some of the other parts of that job, you know, the the hydrant, the the illegal petitions, the then not having a line up floor. But there were a lot of things that were you know that they don't mention any anyway, I don't I don't want to get into No, yeah, we don't have to go the law suits and all that stuff. It was it's a horrible horrible thing. You know, I'm very sorry for that guy.

Cool.

You know, he may not think that I care, but I do.

Hmm, what's the other question I had? Yeah, hold on, I.

Saw him as I have on your thing here the bone marrow program. What was that?

Oh man, that's a great that's a great program. You know that started because I I lost a nephew with leukemia. And then a guy named Mark kulwats that came to me one day. He actually started with Safer and uh, he went the Safer and he said he lost I think a sister with leukemia and he was in rest

Yeah, it's pickled.

I don't have anything left.

That I can donate, but uh, but we started the program and I even have a picture right here.

Holy Patsos did the bone marrow.

And yeah, he was on the plaque, so this is yes, he was. He was the first one, so he is that right, he gives the marrow. And a year later she comes. She was in Las Vegas. And a year later she came and safer. You know, we paraded her around everything and I was there and oh guy.

Was it was.

So they used to call she for a year. You're not supposed to tell a person who gave you the ball, so she used to call him miss the nice man. I guess her parents there was a nice man that uh all the missing It was just one of the most rewarding things.

I think.

I have a deal a lot of guys.

There's a plaque in when you go to the medical office or whatever, there's a plaque there that it has like all the guy's names. I remember a guy from the squad Polyipatzos. Uh he did it, and I remember always looking at his name when I used to go on there. But there was always more names every year, you know.

Great, great program. So one of the One of the best stories for me was, which was pine of part of my m O.

I used to speak to.

The Proby's every year, every every class, you know, so I speaks to them. I would say, you know, we have a voluntary program to join. If you can join the Bone Marrow program, you you know, give a sample and everything. And then I said, it's voluntary, but I use the list when I decide where people are going from provary school, like what units they're going to. So the lawyers come to me and they said, you can't do that. You know, you can't keep threaten number of value.

We'll put the thumb on them, you know what I meant.

Pressure great program, Great I got. I got a couple of questions here. The guys set me here, so I'm gonna just shoot them to you, all right. One of these is have you ever spoken to any member of the current executive staff or are you just speculating on why Capital left the department.

Well, I've spoken to a couple of people. I don't want to mention their names. But and I spoke in the Kavanaugh and I don't believe that she left for the reasons that she said she leaving. I think she realized that this wasn't the job for her. They had set her up, I think, with some really bad advice, and besides that she did a lousy job. I had offered to help her with a couple of things with I don't know if you guys ever heard of Peter Onell, but he's a genius in brand marketing and stuff. When

Right, So I'm gonna I'm gonna just throw this out there, and just for perspective. So when she got in there, there was obviously thought she was doing a lousy job. So obviously you think that the chiefs thought she was doing a lousy job. Is that is that a correct statement?

Well, the chiefs are supposed to help her do a good job, right, Well.

A lot of them took a lot of them took demotions because they didn't think she was she was doing the right job, right. That is that is that if you like I'm.

One of the chiefs actually took a demotion because he couldn't stand the job she was doing and he went back and you know, gave it up for the regiment, then knock yourself out.

You know. Well, I know a couple of guys that some of them are really good guys, but good. What I'm going to say to you is you had some chiefs that are outstanding, right, I mean yeah, and they never took a demotion because you were the commissioner of the job. Correct.

Well, I mean I had a couple of chiefs. Frank Polini was one of them, phenomenal chief. Phenomenal chiefs. Pete Hayden was another, really good chief, good fire officers. They did not want to take on the brotherhood, you know, the the inefficiencies and all the stuff. So they just wanted to stay in the field. That's what they did. So I totally respect that.

I was gonna say, there ain't nothing wrong with that.

Man.

If you realize that absolutely.

Put yeah, will buy on the sword for the guys. I mean that, Yeah, absolutely as a whole. What I'm saying to you, you had Guancy. You had Guancy. I mean you had all those chiefs who never said, hey, I don't want to work with this guy, right right, But she had a bunch of chiefs who said, I can't do this. I mean, she's she's not doing a good job. Right. So I'm trying to draw the contrast between the job that she was doing the job that

Yeah, I'm different. Never, never in a million years put up with the ship that she put up with. Not in a million years. And if you don't want to work for me, that's fine. I would be glad. Like I said, I was really glad to get rid of a lot of those guys.

Well, it's something to be said about that having balls, right, you respect people in a position like that. You don't want to have wishy washy ship.

Absolutely, you need you need people around you. I wanted people to tell me how the really felt. And when Felini came in my office to day, he said, you know, he said, I don't want to do this. I don't want I said great. And I remember him as a fire officer and a bron terrific, terrific, you know. And there were guys that that didn't like some stuff. I remember one of the one of the assistant chiefs one time, won't mention his name is. He was a great guy.

You know what I mean?

Are you you know you're you're on this. I mean, man, I'm taking trapped here, taking game. You're on the team, you're you're and but they made it me. And I thought to myself, Okay, here's a real loyal soldier.

I'm taking grenades here.

Man.

Yeah. So I mean disagree, you can disagree, but you want to. I mean, I think there's a lot that The first of all, I never heard the unions complain about huh. And they usually the first one to complain. So from what I can, from what I can you know, put together, the unions thought she was she was doing deals and everything with them, and she was okay, if you guys know otherwise, I don't know.

I don't I don't know much.

I only heard good stuff. Not They didn't go around and they're not going to go around saying everybody are great she is and then they'll never do that. But I didn't hear them knocking her Brosie or Ansbrono's guys. So I don't want to speak for them, but ask them, you know. So if they thought she was decent, why couldn't these guys jump on and support her? You know what I mean? Come on, guys, you know you can make a difference out there. You have the ear of

On them, all right, we can. I want to throw out a couple of things that some guys sent to me, some emails, because a lot of guys, as many negative emails I got, I got a lot of positives. So let me see, Yeah, let me try to start training begins at for Totten new squads eighteen sixty one two eight. Purchased lighter Scott cylinders for the brothers. Created a lot of one thirty three first new company in ten years, created Soccer Italian. Purchased individual face piece. Uh May, Julie.

That was a big thing, man, Yeah, that was a big freaking thing.

Man.

You know that might not seem like a big thing when I remember getting on the job and putting that face piece on for the first time. Didn't fit, no, but it was like scratched up. You couldn't even see dude.

Look at his face. Yet they used to call me egghead. Right, No face piece fit me until I got my own personal face piece. Yeah, I forgot.

I forgot about that. That was like I say, money was never the object. You know. We always tried to like come to me with stuff, come to me with stuff, and you know, talk about Okay, you want me to, can I say something?

You got another question?

So I'm thinking about Downey, right down He's a perfect example. So I'm in the Union and all I hear these guys complaining about Downey and they're telling me like he's got horrible These guys from Rescue too, they come, they take the line away from us, and they do this, and they do that, bottles off. So now I'm in the Union. I'm in the Union. So of course you

And when I think of in the pre show, you look like Walter Cronkite, Eddie Rooney.

Yeah, I mean.

I remember him. Boy. He remember in the day of September eleventhies walking by me and he say, boss, you know these buildings can.

Come down, just like that.

I was like, wow, you know you only I wasn't thinking like that up that point. And but I knew when he looked at me, you know, with a good looking guy or those eyes and stuff. And he didn't he didn't say, Tommy, get the f out of here. You know, these buildings are coming down. It wasn't like that. I never believed that he thought in one hundred and two minutes from beginning to end, both those buildings are going to come down. And we had some of the

I said, these guys are.

In a lobby. We didn't We didn't know anything that was going on. We had no clue. Everybody knew much more than us, the guys in the lobby. Nobody in we didn't know anything. What we knew was this is this is bad. That's all we knew. A. Hayden and Kalan Kalen was trying to get everybody out of there from the beginning.

You know.

It just we had so many guys that got so far up it just took them so long to get down. We just couldn't do it fast enough, you know. But when it comes to like stuff like that, these chiefs are great, you know, so many really terrific guys, but you know, you want to run physic uh, you know, fitness that the training, it's probably not the right guys.

What was he like? What was Bush like?

You know Bush that day? And I saw him a bunch of times after that too. He was you know, I always thought it later on, maybe a lot of mistakes, you know, going at Iraq and Afghanistan all that stuff, But as far as feeling for our guys, I had seen him like two years before that, he came to one of our memorial ceremonies up in the Central Park and not Central Park, Riverside, and he was phenomenal and you could see it, like I had to pull him away. The Secret Service guy says to me, a boss, can

You know.

So I get in the call with him and he looks at me and he says, commission, you look beat. He said, you're getting any rest? I said, well, my wife came home last night. I got lucky, so I'm feeling better. Yeah, he did.

He looks to me.

So now.

I thought attacking shoot his pants. But Julianne knew me. Gulianne knew I was crazy. So he's just shaking his head, you know. And so the president says, you're the only guy in this car. I got lucky last night. So so then a couple of weeks later, I go to, uh, what's it sink?

Want?

Was it fourteen engines?

Some? Uh?

What call it forty four? Well, anyway, the engine that's a single engine. And so he's he's there, he's having pizza with the guys. So I was there late. I got there late. I walk in and one of the guys says, sit over here, Boston, and the President said, no, come over here, committ He grabs a chair, he puts it next to him. He says, how are things at home? I mean that kind of guy, the check fifty, he could make it in the firehouse. You know, he was

Could had to be the following year. It had to be the following year. I did h whatever. It was something at the U N right, they had. I ended up going with one of the deputy chiefs, a friend of mine, and we were in like the main area. So there was two firemen, two fire department guys, two secret service too, cops the issue all you know, swat guys.

You know, I went he saw you on the bill He saw you on the billboard.

I think he said.

I had a call from the Secret Service right after that that like, uh, yeah, we want you to come to the Catholic Charities. President Bush is gonna be there with his wife. We're gonna have dinner. I'm like, all right, like, what's your show security number? What do you asked me fifty questions. I went there and we had dinner with there was probably about fifty guys from the Union. I think it was from the Union because I was a delegate, and uh, I love his wife. She was the bomb bro.

Yeah, he was.

He was a cool dude too, Like he sat down. I got a picture. I don't know what were looking for it now. I got a picture with him. His wife. They were just real people, you know.

Yeah, she was. She came to a lot of the firehouses with me and her and Libby Pataki also really nice ladies. Really you could feel like they weren't phonies, you know, they really you could see it. They can't, you know, they really can't.

Let me finished, Let me finish these hold lot of a minute, let me find it right here, right here. Second.

I like the library that tom Yeah.

Yeah, keep slipping down here in front of it. I actually read. I actually read one of those books.

There we go, What do you do?

All right?

May and Giuliani funded a forty four million dollar renovation of the Fire Academy of Randalls Island, including a car simulation and a burn building, turn the Academy into the premiere fire training facility in the country. FDI provided a faster relief and a health support for units fire scenes to reduce the stress at the fire scenes. There's another one. Uh Juliani secured purchase of the thermal imaging cameras.

Wait, wait, wait, let me give you one thing. Let me get one story on the training academy. Okay, so we go through all kinds of hoops and we get for Totten, which Tommy Fitzpatrick and some of the guys, I don't know how they did it from the federal government. It was I don't know. I don't remember all the details, but it was a nightmare trying to get it. So we're gonna move our training academy to Fort Totten. So the mayor is gonna support it. We're gonna give us

Yeah, it's a little weird.

Talk about the buildings. That's a great example of inefficiency four times and getting it pretty. They gave everybody a little house to hang out.

Yeah, little house scuba.

Let me finish with the rest that got secured the purchase of thermal imaging cameras for the FDNY given a fight as disability to see the fires beyond the walls and locate victims.

Uh thought it would ray downey and then we just expanded it to everybody.

Yeah, that was a game changer. You know what the best plot was, Tom, You know what the best plot was, My wife made that sale to the FDM. I like apples.

You like apples, like the apples sounds to me like you have a conflict of interest doing.

All right.

One of the questions you got.

I got one one, and I asked him before that if you wanted to talk about it. I actually wanted to make it the word of the day, but he said that's no good. So, uh, you know what I have, all right, so the suck it up? Okay, all right? How did that? When did that come about? I remember it as a fireman, but I don't really remember too much about it.

This is the perfect example of when people want to take you down, how they can just you know, uh, change shit around. So I go on David Lettiman. After September eleventh, Juliani was like a control free in his administration. He never wanted us to do press or anything after September eleventh. He wanted us, everybody to do as much as possible to get the worried out there. What a great job all of our guys have done, how much support we need, how much money we need to rebuild

That's how that went.

You guys can get the tape from David let him and that's exactly how it went. So then I had been on sixty minutes and that guy and you mentioned before, I think his name was Harry Resoner. He calls me up and he says, what is all this stuff with the suck it up? I saw what you said. He said, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, and I said, no, but that's that's what happens when you know, Can I read something.

To you guys, Yeah, absolutely.

Because I saw this. You know, I was trying to prepare you believe.

That's that's that was like, that's like worse than what they're taking out of context with Trump, for God's sake, Like that's.

Exact, and I swear to you. I swear to you, guys, that's exactly how I happened. But check it out if you don't believe me. So I had done his chapter for a book and some at some college, and it was like how to fight upon the COPD. So I was looking at it the other day and I saw this, and I said, I I like the guys to see this. So this is just on page sixteen. We mistakenly began to deal with the deaths as as we always had

Then I remember there was a freaking bumper stick and that said suck it up. Oh god, I still can't get over there.

That we should make a T shirt that says suck it up.

That's like so, I mean, that is like, what do we have to give you?

What do we gotta give you that.

For that? It was totally it was terrible.

That's ridiculous.

And talk about you know management. If you remember, right when they had that incident at thirty three and seventy.

Five, there was you know that's yeah, yeah, that thing right.

Anyway, anyway, that was just one of the one of the hot hart things that had to deal with.

Let me let me bring something up to it up.

Hold on, yeah, yeah all I thought so in appreciate you said that one of your things that you enjoyed the most about the job was that you were able to make those kind of decisions quote unquote you know that weren't like by the book or whatever and make things kind of go away, right.

I mean that you Roofi, good brother.

So I'm gonna bring this this and again there's a lot of guys out there probably who made some poor decisions and uh and uh you know made the call.

I wasn't going to bring this up, but I'm gonna bring it up.

But everybody forget they suck it up right here was this is what happens.

And I told uh, uh, mister van Essen here in the pre show, I had gotten jammed up something. Here we go, Here we go. I got jammed up.

I got look at him chuckling.

I got thrown in. I got thrown in jail, and uh I did something stupid. Uh I got locked up. And the lawyer for the union came and said to me, you remember Clegman yeah, sure, sure right.

He was the criminal guy he was. You must have really done something.

It was crazy, he says to me. He says to me, listen, mister cool, this is what's gonna happen. You're gonna go on the department order. You're gonna you're gonna lose your vacation, you're gonna get a rip, and you probably you might lose your job. I'm like, all right, good talk. So I go to my captain, Captain Dennis Murphy, and I tell him what happened, and he calls von Essen and von Essen said one thing to him, is he a good guy? Is he worth saving? And Kat Murphy said absolutely.

Yet you definitely have a conflict of interest. But I don't tell you the reason I didn't remember it was because I don't want to brag about it. But it had happen, I don't know twenty five times in my time. It just so many. And I told you a story of a guy in to it at the event, at one of the Fight Upontment events, and he told me

You know.

It just it was the best part of the job, being able to do things like that.

You know.

I thought maybe you guys would bring up the famous ty story too, So we've I had some guy for not wearing a tie, right, Louis Gotcia comes in to me and he says, I got this fire Marshal. He's a complete mutt. He does everything, you know, blah, I got a million things. I can't stand him. I haven't able to nail him down. And I just had him at a meeting and you didn't have a tie on. I told him you doesn't where a tie, he's gonna get fired. So I said, all right, let's fire him.

Don't worry about it.

It was like that part. I like that part of the little bit of because you're saying to yourself, there's no way it could be all like straight on. You know, there's like those little conversations like, yeah, this guy's a mutt, what can we do? Yeah? Talking to my guy all.

It was so much, so much fun. Help guy, you know if you can. But you know, I can't win a walk.

What So this was this was the other question. I think, I uh, chief digar with this. If you had to do it all over again, would you would you would you do it? Would you take the jump? Would you take the would you go sell real estate like you were going to do, or retire out and have no aggravation and be you.

Know, no, I wasn't gonna sell real estate, was managing a building in Manhattan, but I would definitely do it.

Super crystal.

To me, it was the best job I ever had, you know, it was it was It had all the combinations of the craziness, the fun of the firehouse. I got to go to fires once in a while. Even that audible talks about, you know how he was in the fire for an hour and a half as commissioner. Commissioners don't go in fires, you know what I mean. It's but I was a fireman, so I enjoyed it.

It was fun, you know.

So I thought it was the best job in the world for me. I got a chance to really help a lot of people. And then, if you's it, I really thought as horrible as September eleventh was. And I'm saying this, maybe maybe it's you guys will say it's my ego, whatever, but I thought I was the best guy to do it at the time because I cared so much about the guys and the wives and the kids, and you know, bringing the city back and everything. I

Quit?

You know, it's it was horrible. It was absolutely horrible. But the relationships, the things that we could do for the families and for you know, the guys, and we did them, and the things we couldn't do, you know, we suffered from and they suffered from. You know, if I was doing it again, I would do a lot of that very differently. I think I would. I wasn't in charge of, you know, the mitigation, you know, as far as you know, some of the things that the

But I was gonna say, how old are you know?

Almost nine, almost seventy nine, So like, I'm really old. I'm falling acros good hair. You still say that, bro just goes back any further. It will be in the back of my head.

Yeah, you don't have this. You don't have this going on, right, you don't have I don't look yet.

Good for you?

Yeah yet?

Uh commissioned.

If there is anything that you could change about yourself and the way you hand something, what would it be.

That's a good question.

Well, I'm thick as ship.

I've heard that from quite a few guys. But it's a good heart thickish.

Yeah, I am thick. I mean, you know, I hear from people that care about me a lot.

But I don't know other way other.

Than that change man what. I'm kind of like that too. Man, Once you have your own ideas, it's not an easy thing to other than that.

I'm almost perfect.

Good for you. Oh, I know, I want to ask you if somebody told me this, because we're gonna we're getting close, is it like a fifty rate that commissioners don't last their full tenure?

Is that?

Is that a full Is that any we're gonna ask about?

Yeah, well, yeah, I forgot about it. I don't I don't know.

I know Lowry they crucified he was the first black guy. They crucified him. They call him you know. They were saying he was selling drugs and everything else. So they came after him. Oh, Hagan was when I was a young firefighter, I used to tell me o'hagen was a drunk and he was this, and he was that. As I get older, I found out o'hagen was probably the best commissioner we've far as like making making improvements in places like I mean, Manhattan is a very safe place.

What I mean.

There's a there's a civil service mentality that you know. I saw it a FEMA. You see the fight upon we see any city agency, there's they just wait for people to you know, wear them out, you know what I mean. And even a good chief keep trying to change stuff, change stuff, and finally uh they gave Yeah. I mean Cassano, uh, you know, had his time. Dandy lasted eight years. Like I say, with the worst mayor and history of mayors. I don't think he accomplished much.

Somebody gave me that call. I don't know if it was sure.

Yeah, well my dad drove Gus Beatman.

Okay.

Did he leave before his term was up?

I don't know.

But he was a good guy man.

He was a good guy.

Yeah, yeah, I got a picture him with Until. He's a nice man.

Good companies too.

I think he was up in Halem right.

Uh, yeah, he was one of them, A good fights that The name I was tarted to think of before was Charlie Rivera.

He was a yeah, yeah, yeah. We've had a lot of pictures of him, like we've had guys on the sh show show pictures of the early days. I forget what companies, but and he was in there, you know, and and you know in some legit companies, you know.

Good good fire ups. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, doesn't mean you're going to do a good job.

You know.

Politics are rough, you know, because they're not honest. The finous is pretty honest. They may they may not be honest, Yeah, they.

May not be right.

But I think that's what I would take away from this podcast.

That's how that's how they mean that they're right.

But that's what's that rough I would say I would take that away from the podcast, is that I can't just because you it's not an easy thing to to to work the politic area, you know, it's an easy thing. I mean, even the union is not an easy thing to do, you know what I mean. And that's it. That's like the minor leagues, right, that's not that's not even like the major leagues. That's like a ball, you know what I mean, like in comparison doing political wise anyway.

Right, So that would be maybe a good question to maybe give some advice for somebody maybe looking to fill your shoes someday in fd U, Y or even anywhere in the world.

And Tucker, what would you tell Tucker right now?

Yeah, what would you.

Tell What would you tell Tucker? Well, he probably already did.

Well, then you can share with us. I hope, I hope. Yeah. I want to help him succeed, you know, and I think he can. He's a I think he really loves the guys, he loves the job. I think he'll be shocked at how poor poorly it's managed. When he gets when he really gets into the weeds. But he's a businessman, he's uh, he's around a long time. He's a smart guy, and I think he's got an opportunity.

He can go either way.

He can just be uh you know, the guy that goes around uh, you know, having some fun and making the guys feel good. Or he can actually go in there and you know, maybe make a difference. And that'll be up to him. And he's got to watch out because, like I say, they stand begged her at city Hall and they could easily stand bag him too.

You know, you can't do it.

Yeah, you can give you some hairbags to work.

Alcohol. You did it.

I can't feel my face.

If he doesn't get a good team, uh he, he won't succeed.

Why why is that?

Why is it that the hot road, the hotter road to tow is to do the right thing? Don't Is that backwards in this job? No?

No, But you when you use the expression, like I remember that expression in the union, do the right thing?

What is that?

What is exactly does that mean? Do the right You know when you hear the teachers Union say it's about the kids. You really believe that that's a bullshit? Is it true with a particular teacher. Absolutely, I've seen teachers. I mean, it's just like, oh, guys, they love their job, they love the kids. For every one of those guys, or every five of those guys, there's one guy that'll just screw the system.

Right and left.

So do the right thing for who. The union is like a like a defense attorney. The defense attorney doesn't walk into the room and say, listen, lou is a really good guy, but he's guilty of sin, so give him a break. That's not the lawyer comes in, he lies his bullsoff to get you off. And that's what the union does. So the union's got a hard job,

I'm getting zero. Come on.

Yeah, it was with terurrific.

You know.

It was those two zero's when you said that before. Oh my god, I remember that. I remember that, like uh and again I had, you know, I just I guess I remember where I.

Was when the guys told this Juliani. It was two zeros. I remember exactly where I was.

But remember he gave it every city employee, not just us.

Yeah yeah, yeah no, but that didn't matter. Why would you let the facts matter?

But you got to remember too, it was a five year contract. It was a five year contract.

It was zero zero two right, two three or something?

Right? Yeah?

No, I think it was fifteen or fourteen the other three years you know between. I think so so it was the fourteen percent contract for five years.

I think I remember saying that he would have been better off if he went two two three, it just spread it out over five. Nobody would have said shit, you know what I mean?

I think I think I said that before Giuliani said that to me one time. He said, I really screwed up. I should have just done one zero. You know, he admitted that.

You know, somebody said zero, there are three, three, six.

Yeah, you talk about optics, you know, and now you talk.

You know. That was a tough way to start with all you all of your employees. You know.

I really thought he made it up to us in so many other ways though, But I was you know, for me, I was on the inside, so I knew what he was doing, what I was doing. Yeah, rich guy in the Fai house, Like I said, they they don't know who to believe.

You know. I gotta tell you if being an outside and not knowing Julianni and this speaks for even the cops, Bro, you always felt no matter what, that guy really legitimately had your back, no matter what happened. He believed you before he believed what happened to the city.

I mean, look what the what happened to the city when he came in. I remember my first year or second year, right, he wasn't in And I went on on the July fourth on independence. They went at fourth of July. I went to like seven jobs or some ridiculous thing. He came in like that was it fought. The July was done. It was like zero, right, were like, come on, you're killing me here, you know what I mean?

You know, like Tom was saying like he was he was a tough though, like even with the cops, like he supported the cops big time, but as soon as he were a bad cop, he crucified you. So right, But I always gave you Remember the black face and Howard Beach, Ye remember something? So I had that one. So the lawyer comes out to me as a good friend of mine, Mike Block, who just recently died.

He said, oh, he just died. I don't know, he just died.

Really good guy. He says, man, I want to talk to you about these guys.

You know.

I said, yeah, okay, come on in.

So he comes in.

Of course he doesn't come in just me and him. We could talk off the record. He brings in like a whole bunch of other people at Sam bagged me later on, but I told him, like, I don't think we should fight these guys. They're just morons, you know, fight every moron holy ship.

We have like six guys. We have like six guys.

So Julianni calls me up and he says, what are you talking about. You have to fight these guys. I said, boss that I'm wanna fight them. They're good guys. They're just ship heads, you know. Mistake, he said, Tommy, He said, that's not how it works. It's the city of New York. We have a tremendous population of minorities. We have to show them support. We can't do so, I said, you know, he convinced me. So of course, now the guy's criticized you. You rolled over. You know you didn't care, I said,

And I was like, did they.

Yeah, it was like the case in My daughter's a lawyer, and she said they actually was a case and that they studied you know, all the you know, whether or not you have the right to say whatever you want even though you're not in uniform and all that kind of stuff. So you know, it's not easy to be the mayor of the city in New York. It's to job, you know. I feel bad for, you know, people who try. I mean I think I think Juliani really tried, and I think he did a great job as a man, true.

Putting out like legitly putting out fires every day, Like every day there's some ship that you don't like, even if you're personally having a bad day, like yourself and your own life, Like you got to hear some shit about.

Black face or some ship like this guy urinating in public fighting right, Oh my god, we are our own worst enemy. I don't know how.

I don't think I would. I don't think I would have done it. I don't. First of all, I don't think I could do it. Like I was thinking about that before when you said, when they called you and said, hey, listen, we want you to come for but a commissioners thing, and you were like, you know, and then you talk to your wife. I'm like, I don't think I could really do that job. Like, I don't know if I

But you know, I was going to say that coming right from the firehouse.

Forget it.

No, they eat your life. I mean, I think the biggest education I ever got was in the Union. Like a lot of the chiefs criticized me when I got the job, He's not a chief, he's a dope.

Failed to the can man.

That's when I heard the can man I never studied for, lieutenant says, see I failed him. I would have failed twenty of them if I took them, because I never studied for You know, I had gotten a graduate degree and everything I was I knew after ten years in the Union. I really knew the department better than any chief in the department, you know what I mean? Except

I said, what is it?

That figure they were going to start, you know that stuff, you got to keep fee in. I was going to ask you that, I said, keep fee in geez, I sure hope he stays. You know, he's a phenomenal guy, a phenomenal leader, and he had the respect of of all the people. And he admitted to me later on, he said, you know, I was really pissed off when you got the job. You know, I thought I deserved it. You know, I was older than you. I knew more at the experience and everything, he said, but he was

And I went to provy school with his son, Johnny f Hen. He's a great guy too. Man.

He's a chief now.

I think, yeah, he's a chief too.

He's probably the reason you talk about the squads. He's probably the reason, one of the main reasons.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, he was at two fifty two, right, he was.

Probably home whining to his father on a.

Daddy whiner.

God's a good man, he's a good guy. I haven't seen him in a long time.

Yeah. So is there anything else, Chief, that you want to just get out I'll be Chief stupid. Anything else commission about acid that you want to get out there?

I don't know.

It was.

It was fun and it's painful and it's dead and it's it's all rolled up into one for me. So I'm very proud of my time as Commissioner, very proud of it, and uh defended stand up to anybody for it. I spent a lot of time, you know. I was blessed afterwards. I was in busied with Giuliani for a while and that ended, and I was working for Honeywell and Underwriter's Laboratories, and I was all over the world

How great, how brave? Yeah, how brave those guys, we.

All guys did that day was they raised the boat of every for every firefighter throughout the world, because everybody then so like, holy shit, they ran to that building and they and they couldn't get out in time. And so that to me, being a spokesperson, you know, and to spread that word, that message all around the world, and I'd love to travel too, it.

Was like a win win, you know.

And I mean you just got out of that. I mean, you what I've seen videos of you and you know in in the lobby. I mean it must have been by the you know, skinny your teeth that you know, just wasn't your time, right, Obviously.

I felt so good that nobody I was in the lobby got killed. Nobody, you know, Chief Callen Hayden.

They were old.

They were trying to get everybody out, Get him out, get him out. Julianna was calling me. He was paying the ass. He always wanted his commissioner to be with him, you know. And I was there and I missed him on West Street and I could open them up on West Broadway, and uh, I left, and but all of those guys got out of the lobby, you know, and

And I never had that.

I never had those feelings of anything that I did was you know, hurt, you know anyway, you know, I got you the ship Sandwich.

Yeah, that sums it up and just never gets twenty something years, it's still is not easy. Somebody worked the mutual for me.

It took my overtime actually, and he died on an to eleven, so I dealt with that for a while. So I know what that ship sandwich. Yeah, and it's it's this time of year every year.

Yeah, it just doesn't anybody.

You know, you seem you know, you're you seem tense. You see this and they say, oh jees it's August first, you know. You know, it just comes every year.

You know.

I go to the ceremony every year, and I stand there and watch these phony politicians and I wish I could get a bag over their heads and choke.

Them and hold back hold.

Really, I don't get it.

I love it, but I mean, you know, some of them, uh it's an They respect the guys, so they come. So that's a good thing. You know. See the President of the United States say, that's that's a big deal. That's to honor the families, you know, so that's important, you know.

But anyway, so you know what you tell you, brother, he's wrong for telling you not to come on this show to today.

I thought you were going to have a good time.

Someone you know, he'll be He's probably plastered by now not for him.

Yeah, because he was waiting.

I app I'll give you one more listen. As as I told you, I appreciate you. I know it wasn't going to be easy for you. And you know you were answered every question that uh we we brought up to you, so uh you know, good and bad, you know what I mean. So I appreciate that. That's I know as well.

I appreciate you coming on and just you know, there's.

No easy answers to some stuff, but nobody's gonna go with you.

That's what That's why we wanted to spelled a lot of myths out there, all be from the brothers to get Let the facts get yeah.

Man, just the facts man.

Excellent. Yeah, everybody happy. I just appreciate it. I enjoyed the show. I appreciate the end.

That's what we wanted you to do, is to come on, tell your side of the story. Listen to your your life story. You had a great career and uh, like you said, you look like Walter Cronkite. Man, that's really crazy.

Well, Louie Bunker was the other name that was.

Get me. I appreciate your positive comments with the other guy. He's obvious conflicts of interest. I would expect.

You might be getting another call tomorrow morning, right out loud. I listened. I also, I also appreciate it putting up with the shaky phone like he's been probably like yeah, in front of it. So it's my fault. He had a hot time with the computer.

I'm a dinosaur technology.

But you did find it.

No great, he looks smart. With all those books in the back.

I got to find out whose books they are?

Whose office are you using this?

Somebody old Juliani's books on it.

There was a joke with Juliani when they said that a book that he did not sign would be more valuable.

Because yes, now you got to make me out get your book. I gotta read your book.

Loud, you guys, if you guys could push one book, I'm telling you this book.

Where the hell is that one?

Is it the chief book?

No?

No, I don't like ade.

I got my phone on top of it. I got, oh, yeah, that's hash Hagens that that book is the best.

That is not Paul Hashagen's book.

Yes, well his book. I mean there's a great story with that. When you guys are old enough back in a long time ago in the union hired a company to do a yearbook. Right, So they go around and they start trying to take pictures at the firehouses, and they went broke because it's impossible to get the guy. You know, you tell the guys in too eighty eight, you know, come to the you know, the firehouse on Thursday at two o'clock, going to take pictures. So now

At four to see the stupid pictures I have of guys before that picture was taken, of what was of what was going on.

Yes, it was probably a great day. They turned it into probably a great day. Absolutely make good decisions, okay, so good choices. So the union, the union, the company goes out of business.

A lot of guys had given like I forget the number, maybe it was a seven dollars depositive. Well, for years in the union, the guys at every union meaning somebody would say, that's seven dollars. I never got my seven dollars back. The guys would be bitching about that seven dollars for years and years and years. So now I'm in the union, I said, I'm going to do the yearbook. So I start the process, right, I'm gonna loan money from the union that we did to put out the money,

Up, you know whoever showed up anyway, Yes, yes, most of the guys showed up.

And that said a lot about it, and Paul did a history of it. It just loaded usself. Just a great, great book. I don't think it's in print anymore, but it's really a terrific and it talks about all of everything that we did for the department and all the accomplishments and and what people before us did, the O'Hagan's of the world. It's a really great hit. Paul did a great job.

Hey, Tom, I gotta ask you a quick question because one of the guys just texted me and I was in two ninety one oh three for a while and they were saying that there there was a scenario I guess with Timmy Stackpole his first tour back or something like that, and the guys were like, yeah, we almost killed him. I don't know what happened. The rig was pulling out and something happened. Do you remember that? Do you remember?

First of all, I mean, I can talk about Stackpole for another hour. So he finally comes back to work, which after September eleventh, I regretted him coming back to work, but Tara says, I couldn't have stopped him and everything. They had a special boot made for him and everything. So I think it's a Sunday in July or June. So I go out there and I'm riding the rig right, I'm in like the seat behind you, officer. So they're

To drive me crazy.

And I wanted to lifting the chiefs, not the guys, not the I thought. I thought the fire fighters in two ninety one or three were crazy, but good they were. They were my kind of crazy. I loved the guys that were crazy, but I mean, you gotta you gotta temper it with safety.

Too, you know about the guys that didn't do bi you like, get anything for those guys.

I always did commission I.

Always, I mean, I was one of them as a firefighter. But then when you be commissioner, you've got to try to fix it. You know, There's that there's that difference. You know, remember sitting you know, instead of we we'd been sitting in our district. The worst buildings would the the city owned. So it wasn't really a lot of.

Right, and you can never write them anyway, right, you never ordered anything anyone.

Talk about inspection. How about the Father's Day fire? Those guys died that day because that was a hardware supply. That wasn't a hardware store. The people who are inspecting that building and doing building inspection didn't notice that that was a hardware supply. That's why I exploded like that. You know what that guess heater went or whatever?

You know.

So these are the things that we joke about. Fire prevention and inspection and stuff like that. When you're the boss, you know, it's like being a parent. You're trying to keep everybody alive. You can't keep everybody alive. If everybody thinks it's okay for for me firefighter Tom von Essen to be laughing about building inspect it's not okay for laughing about it.

Right, Hey, I got a question for you, a guy who's fucking busting my balls and thinks we didn't ask any tough questions. How did Building seven burned down? Was it the OEM office?

I don't even know what the funk that means, why do you even answer that question?

Well? Irritating me?

Wait wait, wait no, So there was a story to that one. So it wasn't the OEM office. From what they said later on, there was uh Secret Service or FBI if somebody had auxiliary tanks there and that they they caused the building to explode and burn down or whatever. But the decision, right, the right decision I think was made that day that building. I came out and I went in involved, right, involved, Yeah, and they decided, the chiefs decided everybody was out. The super that building made

Yeah, this guy's asking ask a tough question.

That's the question question.

That's the one he asked.

What's the matter with you?

Did I tell you to stop reading the chat?

I should stop, right, I should stop.

I want to choke the ship out of this guy.

That's not that's Tom.

I appreciate you coming on. I appreciate you answer questions.

In the world, stop reading the chat, get me your health and safety tips.

All right? Well, wait, we gotta do with health and safety. We picked out.

The First Responder Center for Excellence is a not for profit organization dedicated to protecting the lives and livelihoods of first responders. Their education and research initiatives aim to bring greater away aareness and understanding the challenges to help safety and well being of firefighters, EMS personnel, and other first responders too. They are an affiliate of the National Fallen Firefighter Foundation.

All Right, tonight's health and safety tip is never store your bunkie gear inside of your car or at home. When bunky gear must be transported, use a gearbag or a clear path plastic bag. I can't tell you how many guys I see going on details just throwing their ship in the car man, and then they got their kids freaking cost seat right next to it. BROB, don't be silly, don't be putting no contaminated ship. You call where your kids are, Don't be bringing it home to

I'm gonna go have a scotch.

Go ahead, you know what, you can.

Tell you brother he's wrong.

What's your brother's David?

Yet? I forget We're just said, Roddy, Roddy, Roddy, do me a favor? Fuck it? Oh, look it up.

Oh you're gonna be getting a call tomorrow.

Well yeah, what was it about that thing?

You know you'll be like, yeah, we'll see.

Dis for coming on. What do we got next Thursday?

Roof You know, I don't even know.

I don't even care this, but who cares? Whatever? Nobody to stop it? Then disould tell us your side of the story.

Next Thursday is Chief Downy from Miami.

Deed, he signed off already, he signed off.

Have a scotch?

Is all right? Guys, We will see you next Thursday. Until then, stay long ago and Tuesday, look out for a cup of joy with Fago.

You know what you gotta remember. We'll see it the big one, everybody.

That was a good show, guys, that was a good show. Great show. All right, guys, have a great night. Real heavy