At Adam Caryl Lone.
She's a queen and talking and you know she's getting really not afraid to feel as episode or soul.
Just let it flow. No one can do we quiet, Cary Line, it's sound for Carolne.
You know what I like about you, Terry Cole do telling.
I like that you just like get to the point, like and when you're ready to leave, you just leave, like you'll leave a conversation, you'll leave a room, you'll leave anything when you're done with it, like you have a strong boundary.
But it's so kind and loving.
That's so funny that you noticed that when it's time to go.
For Terry Cole, it's time to go.
She gotta go.
You gotta go because I admire that in people, because I can't leave, like I have a hard time leaving, like I have to wait for everyone to be ready to leave.
Part of my high functioning codebend. It's like that is correct, Oh, I know, I know.
Yeah, but I ast need to make sure everybody's done with what they need to do and that they're finished with what they want from that experience and what they need from me. And so then when I feel like everyone's ready to sleep, I'll leave.
But when I notice people like yourself who just freaking leave right.
You're like, because when I need to leave is my side of the street, and what other people need to leave is their side of the street.
Yeah.
See, you're not mind reading trying to guess why they need you to stay longer, why you're going to say for them, when you accomplished what you need to accomplish.
You're out or I just want to go home.
Yeah, yeah, I've noticed that about you because I've been lucky enough to talk to you on zoom calls like maybe three or four times, but you always just go when you're done, Like you're always like, okay, great, love talking to you, bye, love me, and then you just hang right up.
And I'm like, I have some power right there.
And what's so funny if my husband cannot end a conversation with people and they said we'll be on based on with family and whatever, and I'm like, wrap it, look up, like we're all done. They're done, We're done. And then as soon as we're about to hang up and be like, oh wait, Alex, I wanted to ask her, I'm like, how are we what is this an abandonment issue thing, like, what's the deal? Is there a skill to ending a conversation? I think there is?
Did you always end conversations well? Or did you acquire this over your years and years? Okay, so you're a psychotherapist. Yes, like the best in the world in my opinion, because you gave me my biggest breakthrough, which I was on a hunt around the world.
Literally.
I hired a life coach who were both friends with Kathy Heller. She was amazing, learned so much from her, and then she led me to you because we had this retreat and she was having experts come in and teach us about ourselves and like why we were struggling with self worth and all the things. And you came in and you talked about hygph function codependency, and my jaw was on the ground.
I was like, oh my god, this is me.
But I, like, I had no idea because I did not think I was codependent because I was so capable exactly yeah, and I've done so many big things and I'm not scared to take risks, you know, right.
But you, like everyone else, didn't understand the vast expansion that is codependency and the particular flavor of your codependency. It was the same as my codependency, which is why I named a new kind of codependency, calling it high functioning, because you were like all of my therapy clients who anytime I would bring up, hey, that's a codependent pattern, they'd be like, no, it's not, lady, I'm not codependent. Everyone's dependent on me. I'm the one making all the dough.
I'm the one who's the rock in my family. I'm the one managing all the people. What are you talking about? And it made me realize, Wow, my highly capable clients do not know what codependency is.
What is it?
I won't tell you. Okay. According to Terry.
Cole, which is a good one to accord to, That's.
What I'm saying is when you are overly invested in the feeling states, the outcomes, situations, circumstances, relationships of the people in your life to the detriment of your own internal peace.
That's a big one.
Okay.
So like those are some big words just through out there, but like really, when you break it down, like if you're feeling sick in your stomach because you're so worried about everyone in your life that their outcomes aren't going
to be what you need them to be. And that's what you said, The outcomes need to be the way I need them to be so I can relax, Like, I can't have them messing up how I needed to go, or having them have construction or have them not being happy or have them being mad at me, because then I'm not going to be able to have peace.
So I have to go control them to make sure that I give.
Them everything I can with my people, pleasing personality, read their energy, like feel the room, make sure they get what they need so they can be happy, and then I can be like, Okay, I can relax.
So you see how that's a short term strategy.
I lived in that way for like my whole life.
Right, But you understand you can't keep going, which is why you were searching around.
The world just having a prey down.
Yeah, because literally there's only so much bandwidth that we can bleed in that way, especially once you become a mother, especially because once you hit perimenopause or menopause, like you just get so over all of this bandwidth bleeding. And what I see in my therapy practice is that it makes us presentful because we're doing it. We are proactively
inserting ourselves. Right, So what are the Let's talk about the behaviors, because I feel like, let's get really clear for people who are watching and listening to be able to see themselves. If you are a high functioning codependent, I mean, let's just be specific about the differences. Right, The more capable you are, the less codependency looks like codependency. Sneakier you are, but it's still codependency.
You're extra sneaky and acting not codependent, that's right, You're really good at it.
But actually people perceive you as not codependent because you're so.
Capable, probably like running some company.
You are, and nobody is checking in on you either, because we're the ones who are checking in on all the other people, right. Right, So with codependency, people think my clients were like, I'm not enabling an alcoholic. What are you talking about? As if that is the only way codependency can be expressed, Like.
As if you let someone carry on a toxic behavior that you're very aware, like drinking or drinks.
I mean, when you think about codependency, this is how codependency Melody Baity codependent, no more got to be involved with an addict. This is what a lot of my the myths that my clients thought were true about codependency, so they didn't see themselves in the problem. So for me, I needed to create it so they could see themselves, because how could we get to a solution if they
didn't even see themselves in the problem. And you know, Caroline, it was also my own personal experiences, So this wasn't just me sort of changing this definition. It's me expanding the definition because it was the flavor of my own young life codependency where you're not just codependent with the
people in your life, you could be codependent. I mean, I opened the book with a story of me being on a platform in Long Island, a train platform at ten thirty at night on a Tuesday, and I see this kid, he's probably about nineteen and I'm probably about twenty two, and he's holding a little blanket and I'm like, hmm. My helper radar is already pinging, like where's this young kid going? At ten thirty at night? And I was
going back to my apartment. I was coming from therapy, and so I started chattinghim up on the train, and I was like, oh, where are you going? He said, Oh, my name is Billy blah blah blah. He's like, I was hired to drive a car from Long Island to Indiana and then they just canceled the gig. So I go, so where are you going? He's like, I'm going. I'm going to you know, Penn Station. I go, where are you going to sleep? He's like Pound Station. I was like, no,
you're not building. Have you ever been to Penn State? Keep him on. This is the late eighties. The city was rough still. I was like, you've ever been to Pend Station? Dude? You can't sleep there. He's like, well, I don't know anybody in New York. I'm like, yeah, you do? You know me? You let him upstate with you? Yes? I did. I took a perfect stranger that I knew for exactly one hour, brought him to my apartment with my female roommate, and it was a studio rent did it all?
How did it pan out?
Oh? Fine? Of course? I mean he left without incident the next day. And the point is you guys, watching and listening to you, you may not have done that extreme, but we all have Billy's stories. Which is where we feel overly responsible for people we don't even efen know. Why is that well, because it's an illusion of control. Right, here's the illusion. I couldn't stand the idea that this boy in my mind, which is ironic because I was probably three years older than him, was going to be
in what I considered a dangerous or precarious situation. And we are the helpers, the healers, we're the ones, we're the ones. We can't let it slip through the crack, even someone we don't know. And here's the thing. I didn't stop and think and go, hmmm, does that make sense? Is this even my shit to solve? Like is this
even my problem? It was a knee jerk reaction. So the thing with high function codependency in these and I'm going to go through the behaviors so people can't get into it and understand if it's them we're talking about. These are things we're sort of doing compulsively, like I'm not thinking. I wasn't thinking before, not at all, and it never entered my mind. It wasn't the right thing to do, though, I mean till way later, even when
I came home, freached yourself out way later. We later, I well, of course, and once I started, once I had kids, I was like, that was insane. Why would you do that? So the behaviors we want to look out for auto advice giving, Okay.
So I kind of explain that a little bit, so always got the right answer always here. Because another thing, and I'm not trying to diverge, just when to make sure I say this is when you are a high function codependent, you are so afraid of that other person's cookie crumbling and their life falling apart.
But what you don't know.
Is like that is so self righteous of you to think that you know it's best for them, and that them falling apart isn't exactly what they needed. So they could hit that level and actually gain the lessons they need and go on the journey they need that they wouldn't have done if.
They hadn't hit that level. I think about that all the time.
Yes, but it takes so long to get to that because here's the thing.
So then you have to let people be.
That's the thing. We have to let the ships fall where they may when they're not your mother f and chips. But that's the hard that's the hard. Part. So the auto advice giving this can look like two things. It can look like someone coming to you and just saying, oh, hey, I decided I'm going to go here for vacation. You being like, oh, make sure you stop there as well.
This place was amazing. You're going to love that. I know people, I actually have a great real estate, but like I have a great travel agent for you, I where we just can't stop. So that's someone who hasn't even asked us for our input. They literally just said I'm going on vacation. We were like planning their itinerary. So there's that. And then you have the people who come to you because you are a healer and a helper and a fixer, who are like, she's definitely going
to tell me what to do. Can't wait, And they say, hey, I have this problem, and you immediately jump in with your ideas, your thoughts. The people you can hook them up with the book that you've already underlined for them, the course that you're going to purchase for them, all the things that we do. But let's talk about the cost.
So wait, what is that one?
When they time to you, that's also advice givings and it's.
As part of auto advice giving. It really is, because you have the spiritual advice yes and no wisdom.
Here's the thing, though, they could come to you and say, even if they're asking for your opinion, the most loving thing to do before you ever tell anyone what you think is to say, first of all, what do you think?
Instead of like, instead of going to that people, please do let me fix it right away. So just fire off some advice for you, But what do you think?
Because they actually know.
For themselves, and even if they don't, it's okay, right, you can say what do you think you should do? Because your gun instinct is good because nobody knows more than you what you should do in this situation. And even if you don't know, I will be with you in the foxhole of your not knowing. That's love, that's a wisdom, right. But not fixing it, you see, fixing is what we do for us. I'm uncomfortable with your uncomfortable feelings. I'm gonna fix it so I feel better.
Uh huh right, love, Yes, tell you, oh, same until you hit me like a ton of break, but same, same.
And how do I recognize you? Because I was you? I was you. Because we're so big hearted, we're empathic, we're highly sensitive people. Listen, anyone who's watching this or listening to this and is feeling like, oh my god, this is me? Is this terrible? It's not terrible. We are good people. We are lovers, we are mothers, we are partners. We want to be the best friends and
the best sisters. We want to do it all right, and we want to control it all And it's the most loving thing in the world to give that up and to let the chips fall where they may, as I said, when they're not your mother f and chips and that can be difficult to see. So we have auto advice giving, which I'm going to tell you what to do instead, Right, what are we going to do? Instead? We're going to ask expansive questions. Tell me more about that. If you did know the answer, what would it be?
Just take a gain, Yes, let them figure out for themselves. Yeah, because they might be going down a totally different road than you would have taken them on with your advice.
Exactly what you're personal Yeah, right, because fixing is not the same as compassionately witnessing or loving.
Oh god, you have to be so wise to act like this. Okay, yes you have to be so aware.
You do, Yes, you do, you do. But the thing is, we get super aware. And I walk you through this in the book of like our activation points. I'm not going to say triggers just because that shit is so overused and it's so boring, Like unless you're talking about real trauma capital t then it's okay to say triggers.
But I don't love the whole thing that, like everything is triggering people all the time, but we get activated activated right where I'm a little tense, my heart is beating a little, I'm a little worried about what you are aren't going to do. That's about us, right, So we need to understand that about us and have compassion for why we are. And I walk you through this.
I walk you through your HFC blueprint. So your high functioning codependency blueprint is a relational blueprint, which is like, why do we relate in our relationships the way that we do, Why do we relate to the world. Why do we feel this over responsibility for all the people and all the things. Why do we look at people as projects to be managed in problems to be solved. There's reasons why.
So do you think people actually walk into relationship as to whole healed humans, Andre like, we're going to be partner up. I mean, that's amazing.
I don't know that they walk in that way.
You're too older to be able to get to that.
I think so. But I do believe that it's possible to have a healthy relationship because what I walk you through in the book is we go from codependency to enter dependency in our relationships, which is a healthy dependency. There is such thing. That's what a healthy relationship is. So back to the behaviors. Auto accommodating is the next behavior, so where we just are constantly twisting ourselves up in a press so we're lighting ourselves on fire to keep
other people warm. I don't want you to be inconvenienced. Although yep, car broke down, don't worry. Take the other car. All uber school like, we just can't wait to just auto accommodate again because we're always anticipating where there might be a problem that we can make not be a problem.
Is it also because ultimately need people to love us, so we're going to make sure these behaviors part of that going back to because I need you to love me, so I'm going to do these behaviors.
It's a combination of I wouldn't only just say it that way. I would say, we don't want to be rejected fear of making other people mad. And what does that mean? We don't want to get kicked out of the tribe? Yeah, right, so yes, is it ultimately yes, valuable and we don't want to be left. We don't be left, It's true. I mean there is abandonment stuff there too. We also can't take it when we feel
like things are out of control. So what people don't talk about with any kind of codependency is that it is an overt or covert bid to control other people's outcomes. I mean it just is overt. It's an overt or covert meaning it's an obvious grab for control, or it's
like a stealthy not grab for control. Yes, where it's like, oh, wouldn't it be better if did this, Like if not really saying truthfully how you feel about it, but guiding something this way, omitting information if it's going to make somebody mad, finding a way to you know, the next one from auto accommodating which is kind of in the moment. Then we have the planning where you're proactively, like planning for the future when you know you're going to be with somebody difficult.
Oh, you're prepping.
You're prepping, okay, like how you're going to behave and how you're not going to have. So Uncle Bob is coming to the party, and so is Uncle Jim and they hate each other. So Uncle Bob is always the troublemaker. So I'm going to make sure he doesn't sit near him, and I'll make sure you get the booze that he likes, so that won't be a problem. So instead of just saying to Uncle Bob, either act like a normal person or don't come to the party, we do this. We do this anticipatory as planning.
Don't we all do that? I mean, even though you're so healed, do you still do that?
If you're going to have a family function you knew there were some problems, would you would you not prep for it even though you know the truth.
What's interesting is for me, at this point in my life and at this point in my recovery, I would have already told Uncle Bob to get a shit together or he's not coming to the party like lovingly, but I would have been like, if you don't want to, I'm not doing this thing. So if you don't want to see Uncle Jim, you're both coming. And it is your right to not come, right, and I respect that right.
But I'm not going to be a referee at my own party when I have things that I have to be doing good and i'd like to make a simple request that you get your shit together. Thank you.
That's amazing.
Maybe I wouldn't say it just like that, but yes, you get the point. But anticipatory planning, all of these things that we're talking about take up so much bandwidth they do, it's exhausting. We're also overfunctioning so now, and this is a very common dynamic and codependent relationships, the
overfunctioning and the underfunctioning. And I used to say, because it's true that in my twenties I could take a perfectly capable man and turn him into an underfunctioner and let two weeks or less, two weeks or less by just being like, I got it. You just handle everything I have on back, don't worry, so everything's fine. I got it. Just so much of I got it you get to a point where people are like, Okay, just
got it. Who cares? Like, I'm so over arguing because another element of high functioning codependency is being bad receivers.
Oh okay, now I think a lot of women are gonna have to shake that one off a little bit because that's so true.
Right, Yeah, like we're not that great, So let's talk about.
It a lot areas on her relationship too, Yeah, and all relationships.
Yeah, it's not just even your romantic relationships. We're talking about how hard it can be to let other people and this is very difficult when you run a business. How many of the women who take my courses, especially on high function codependency and join my because I have a whole community now on this are exhausted because they have these in messed relationships with the people who work for them.
Okay, so like how so what would that play out to?
Look Like? We're like, you're overly involved in your assistance bad divorce.
Yeah, like you're weighing in all the time, you.
Weigh in, and then she's calling you on the weekend about it, she's crying, she's in an emergency situation.
You're too deep in so now if anything goes wrong with work, now you're kind of screwed across the board because completely so intertwined.
Exactly because you don't have professional and personal boundaries place protecting your business or protecting your peace of mind.
And I feel like I have fallen victim to that in so many areas in my life so long that finally, at forty one, I'm just now realizing, Okay, boundaries with people, you cannot let it all spaghetti over except for a few that you like, really know are your core core, but like you do have to keep because if it goes south, you're screwed.
Everybody's screwed.
Yes. And the thing is, if you don't have good boundaries at work, it's same thing like being a psychotherapist. If you don't have good boundaries with your clients, under the guise of being nice or trying to overgive, you're just being a bad therapist. Right. It's not good for your clients to do that, and it's not good for subordinates, for people who work for you, for you to have this enmeshed relationship with them, it's confusing. They're like, are
we friends? Well not really, because you're like my boss and you're actually paying my you know you're paying me. This is my livelihood. It's very confusing, but I've seen it over and over again. Of these blurred boundaries is personal and professional again because so much of the time when you're an HFC, you're an mpath so you feel your assistance pain. Yeah, you care for people. You want her to be happy. And yet this is where we need to learn what is my side of the street
and what is their side of the tree. And that's hard, but it's so important, and the over and underfunctioning. I just want to go back to that for one second. This creates a lot of resentment for us because now we're like exhausted, we're burnt, we're just bleeding energy. And then we're like, ugh, Betty is so entitled, But we.
Gave her that ability to hold that kind of power in space.
And here's the thing. Is Betty entitled? Or am I just serving myself up on a silver platter and blaming Betty?
Yeah, because she's doing her that correct.
And maybe she believes what I'm saying. Maybe she believes that I'm fine with it when I say I got it right. Problem, why I say that if it's not.
True, and so many people are just operating out of trauma responses that I feel like it actually becomes their whole personality, you know when you especially, I've noticed this.
Everyone has little T trauma, like you say, but like if you were born into big T trauma, like and I do believe everyone eventually gets big T trauma, But like, if you start off with big T trauma and that is your entrance into the world, you don't really realize that life isn't always traumatic and that you develop these skill sets and the survival mechanism that then kind of becomes your personality.
Yeah, but it's yes, But what's interesting about this with trauma response? Think about one of the telltale signs is being hypervigilant right about danger and about whatever. But when you think about being in HFC, we are always hypervigilant. We're always aware of what's going on in this room. I know exactly where everyone is in this room. I know exactly what you look like, what you look like, what who's doing what like even right now? And if if it's this is part of the skill set that
becomes your superpower when you get into recovery. Right for being a high functioning codependent, which I'll walk you through in the book, and one next right action at a time. Then these things really become a superpower when we're doing it to control people in our environment, when we're doing it to control the outcome for other people, when we're inserting ourselves as the answer to all other people's problems. I mean, think about what we're really doing, and how painful.
For me this was a very humbling part of the realization. And this was in my twenties, and this is when this whole concept came to me. And it took decades to write about it because I needed to see it over and over and over again, like tens of thousands and hypothesis exactly and teach it for years to really see what is the truth about this behavior. But the end of the end for me was I couldn't believe how I really thought that my motivation was love only.
I really thought I was like mother Terisa, like that I just loved people. I just cared about people, and I do love people and care about people. But it wasn't that pure because what came out this was all around a situation that my sister was in, an abusive situation that she was in that I was trying to take on so badly and trying to get her to leave.
It was like five alarm fire for me every day in my life, just being like what else can I throw at this situation to make it, to make her leave, you know.
To get this outcome correct exactly.
To get because it was so distracting and it was so distressing and my therapist I was crying and it was like, what am I going to do? I've done everything that I can. And she said, Terry, let me ask you something. What makes you think you know what Jenna needs to learn in this life?
And people could say, well, it's because these are you know, these are moral codes. There's like the Golden rules, Like there's like, you know, you can find proof of laws and rules you're supposed to follow, but ultimately that's not it.
Well, she was basically saying you don't know. And I first resisted and was like, well, I think we can agree she doesn't need to do it in a house in the woods with a crack addict who is abusive and no running water. I mean, I feel like can we agree to that? And she was like no, because Sarah, I'm not God.
Is what she needs.
Yeah, but how do you know when someone's actually in a bad situation that that's where they're supposed to be.
Well, the thing is, it's their situation. So I had done everything I could to get her out, you know, and I in the end, my therapist help me see that what I need. So I didn't even know I had to choice, is my point. Okay, I thought I was doing what I must do as a good sister, which was to never quit. And she was like, that's not necessarily what you need to do, she said, but you can draw boundaries. You don't need to let her talk to you about this, And that's what I did.
So she helped me walk me through. This is the beginning of my whole boundary journey right where I walked me through and I was able to say to her, Lissa, I love you, and if you ever want to get out, I will always be your person, right because that's normal. I can help her in a normal way, not taking over the whole thing. But I also can't you know, I can't have you talking to me about this guy every day. It's so painful for me. And she said,
I totally understand. I love you too, and maybe we talked about twice in nine months, and we've been talking quite a bit. And then she called me up and said, are you're still my person? And I was like putting on my sneakers right now, jumped in my car, went and got her. She got back into school, she got sober. And here's the most important thing is that instead of Terry being the hero of Jenna's story, Jenna is the hero of her own story.
You know, that's hard to wait for someone to be their own hero.
Why do we think that we have the Why do we think we should be the hero?
Why it want to be like? Why do we come in like that?
It's not I don't think it's a conscious thing about wanting to be the hero, right. I think it's that it's a knee jerk reaction to their pain. And we are so allergic to other people's pain that we just needed to stop right now.
Why are we so allergic? Because it our traumas?
Yeah, and it's control, it's control, it's we don't like the way it makes us feel. And so so much of what I're walking through in this book is we can learn to tolerate the way that we feel, and that it's very loving to tolerate the way that we feel. And even if, even if people listening, if the only thing you changed from listening to this interview is that instead of auto advice giving, you start asking expansive questions
in your relationships, your life will change. Your relationships will change because when we control everything, people don't really know us, right, because we don't want to be vulnerable. So the lack of receiving, the lack of allowing, the lack of surrender, because that's really what's on the other side of recovery from being an HFC is surrendering in the most expansive and beautiful and delicious way, like a whole different way of living. When you just go, that's not for me
to control. I'm going to pour my time and energy into nourishing myself. I call it self consideration because it's so much more than like self care, which sounds like a manicure, you know, or self love, which is even more and more Nobody even knows what that is. So self consideration is something that we can actually look at and go, what is self consideration? Do I have the bandwidth to help this person who just asked me if the answer is no, then I'm going to say.
No, do I have the bandwidth to help this person? Because people are going to come in all the time. But it's like you have to weigh it out, like, yes, it's not everyone is yours to save. If it's rejection in your body, if you're not feeling a full body, yes, right, then it's a no.
Yes. And because we're human beings and relationships with other human beings, there's gonna be plenty of times with family and partners and husbands and whoever. Of course, we're still gonna do shit we don't want to do, because that's called being a human being on planet Earth. But if we're doing it consciously. When my husband wants to get tickets to go see the opera, let's say, because he loves all that shit and I hate it, I go, not the Grand Old Opera, the actual opera. And I
don't hate it. I just don't. It's not my thing. But he loves it. So I make a conscious choice to go, get dressed up, have a great time. I never make him feel bad about it. I always he will not listen to this, I imagine, but he always thinks I had a great time, and I do that because that's a conscious choice. His happiness matters to me, and he does the same for me on a million things. So I think part of what we're talking about is how do we move into making these decisions, whatever they are,
mindfully and consciously. And the first thing we have to do is just slow down a breathing. Just so hard to slow down taking a breath, but you can do it. It's about having a meditation practice. I've been teaching meditation for years. I've got a million pre things on inside timer. It's like I've been doing meditation for twenty years and I've been teaching it for fifteen. Like anybody, if I could learn to meditate, and I was a total type a psycho, anybody can trust me. I really tried to
get the hack. I was like, there's it's gotta be a weekend thing I could do. No, that wasn't It should be years to exactly. So, we want to slow down, we want to breathe, and we want to really make decisions from a mindful place. Because it doesn't mean we can't compromise. Of course we will, but it's not our knee jerk reaction is not to we don't want it to be to self abandon right. We don't want to say yes when we want to say no, right under this guise of like being nice, because we all know
that shit isn't nice. That is misleading. It's giving the people in our lives corrupted information about who we are. And then we're like, I feel so lonely even in relationships. So I wonder why there's like an existential crisis that comes if you do this for long enough, where we've taken so many for the team that the team doesn't even know who we are. And it's sad when you've checked all the boxes that society told us to check and make you feel unsatisfied in your fifties and your sixties.
And this is what I see in my office all the time, really, because.
These women just sacrifice and sacrifice and sacrifice so they can keep this thing going that they've built. That they don't even know who they are in the picture, that they don't even know the role they're playing or they know the role they're playing with. They don't know who they actually are.
Right, and the role yes, and they feel that their value is commensurate to their contribution, right, like being utilitarian, what have I done for and there's always someone who needs something more than us. And I feel like the you know, having a kid, wanting to be a good role model for your child, It's like, we have to have our self consideration has to be at the top of our list. It has to be yeah, because nobody
else can do it. And again, it doesn't mean that we won't do all so many of the things that we're doing, but we're just going to do them differently. We're going to do them as a mindful choice and not as a reaction. Because if it's a compulsion, because people are like Terry, I'm just nice, what's wrong with being nice? And I'm like, dude, if you can't not do it, you're not being nice. That's a compulsion. That's
a compulsion like any other compulsion. So I think we have to really look at our behavior not from the negative point of view, from the point of view of like, how do I want to feel? And is what I'm doing going to get me to feel the way that I want to feel. Because we all want to be seen, Yep, we all want to be heard. We all want to be known, and ultimately, what you think, how you feel, and what you want matters, but it has to matter to you more than what anyone else wants, thinks, or feels.
And that's literally putting yourself first.
It is, And we've been just indoctrinated into this belief that that makes you selfish and mean and full of yourself and have a big head and all this other crap and what we're really talking about, because you know how it is when you're frazzled, When you're frazzled, when you're running out of steam, when you're your bandwidth is down. How nice are you to your husband? You're a little short, You're not that nice. How nice are you to your kids?
Not that nice? Everyone's getting on your nerves right Just it's like we're low key just waiting to start a fight with anyone. It could be the person online or traders could be like, yes, driving in traffic, don't cut me off, buddy, even try. It's dangerous today. But you see, it's it has a cumulative effect where all of this self sacrifice under the guys of being nice ultimately is not that nice.
Yeah, it is so interesting, and it's I finally, I still struggle. I know these things, but I still find myself struggling with them all the time because I feel like the more you learn, then your mistakes get higher, Like then you get a harder challenge the next time.
Do you taill that?
And did you finish telling the five different ones?
You have? The So we have the auto advice givings of auto accommodating, we have anticipatory planning, we have over and underfunctioning, and then we have what was the last one we were talking about. I think it's just doing stuff for people that they can and should be doing for themselves. Yeah, and that's with kids too.
I was high function codepen. It was funny and I still am to this.
I realized it because I want her to be happy so badly, and I want her to have so much joy in her life so much that I'm always like scanning the situation, like what needs to happen so she has the best day, like, and not that that's bad, but it's also like, Okay, I don't have to like alter things.
Life can be life.
You know, she can experience what she needs experience and let me try to control it so it tilts.
Happy exactly, because what ends up happening is that life is a mixture of happy and sad and exquisite and horrible. Right, this is life. Now, I'm not saying with little kids we want them to have horrible experiences. We don't. But in order for them to be prepared for life, we want to give them deductive reasoning skills. We want them to have critical thinking skills. So even with Sonny, just start asking the questions. You can still guide and protect,
but start asking the questions. Listen more than you talk. What did you think? Oh, so that happened with your friend? So what did you think? What do you think you should have done? Or what do you think you should do? Now? Like, just don't talk. Kids will tell us, you know, and we can guide too. Well, well, I think I should punch her in the face. Well let's think about that. Let's actually think that through. So if you punch her in the face, then what would your teacher say? What
would your principals say? And then you know what I mean, Like, even if it's something kind of outrageous, he tells you so much about what the kid is thinking. But we're teaching them as we go, as we walk them through. And I feel like so much with parenting nowadays, especially is exactly what you're saying, Like, we don't want kids to suffer at all. We want to make sure but that's again, that's about us. That's not what's best for them. But you know, Carolyn, that's why you brought it up.
I mean, you know, right, we need to be looking at it from a point of viewer. Am I getting them ready for life in some way? Or do I just want the joy of them being joyful right now? Right? You know what I mean?
You have to like literally this work that you did in your book Too Much, which is out and it's so good, the knowledge you have gained though the work you have put into this. It is just such a resource to be able to have you speak about this
and have this in a book form. Because even as you're telling me this and I know this, and I've like it's gone through my brain like it's every time I hear it, it's like it opens something else up, you know, because I've been living for thirty plus years the other way.
Yes, you know, to retrain yourself.
So how do you retrain yourself to actually turn all these h high functioning traits into things that will benefit us?
How do you retrain it?
Well? Part of it is the awareness piece. So the way that I will key through it in the book, the first half of the book is all going in before we go out, because this is this is where it is, right, It's all what is our internal experience? What is our HFC blueprint, which is a relational blueprint, So it tells us how life is supposed to be. How are you supposed to relate to your partner, How are we supposed to relate to friends, family, church, or organizations,
whatever it is. So we all have a different story exactly.
How you're born, what your circumstanced.
Country, culture, trauma, family of origin, religio Religion plays a huge role in this too, So you're going to yourself look and go, oh, here's my relational blueprint. Now I have something to work with. So this whole book is the same way that I wrote Boundary Boss, which is that there's no one size fits all when it comes to boundaries, and there's no one size fits all when it comes to the right way to relate to others. Right, there isn't I in the book. It's written it's called
back to you. Right, So I introduced the concept and then I immediately say back to you, and there's like four questions. I'll be like, right now, think about X, Y and Z whatever it is. Because the truth is listen anyone reading this book. All of us read books on self help because we're like, how is the benefiting? Like I would like to put this in place right now, please. So that's the way the book is written, so that there's hopefully early satisfaction where you're like, Okay, I can
see how this is going to change my life. I start though, with you doing a resentment inventory.
A resentment inventory?
Yeah, oh how do you do that? Well?
How does that want start?
It's kind of exactly what you think where we all know right now, you know, I know who who were feeling resentmentords even when you're really healthy, I've been doing that. I've had thirty five years of therapy and I've been a therapist for twenty seven. So here's the reality that you still will nobody's perfect, right, We're still going to
have these human experiences. So then you start to write down this is the person, so probably the top people in your life life could be people that you work with. Write down who it is and write down what do you resemble about, And then we're writing down, how what is my fifty percent of this interaction?
There's the key, what is my part of this?
Yep?
Because we know why we're mad at them or know I would resent them. Yep, you know what they're doing wrong.
Yeah.
And then when you go, oh, my fifty percent is my husband has been being late to something repeatedly and either I haven't said anything or I haven't mentioned it again or whatever the thing is, we look at it and go okay, because we need some kind of an action that we can take what needs to happen for us to feel that like honor that resentment because walking around resentful also sucks up so much bandwidth. Yeah, it's like exhausting it, does you know?
Yes?
And so then we just slowly, maturely, we use this resentment inventory as GPS for you to find what relationships in your life need your attention most urgently. Okay, So that's like one of the first things that we do. Then we're also going to do a whole list of what are you tolerating?
Okay in what way? What are you tolerating in what way?
In every way?
How do you even know where to start?
Well, I walk you through it, so it could be at all areas of your life we list, and it could be you know, even your home. Let's just say in your home, maybe you have a light in your office that you hate. Maybe it's like an overhead light that's really caustic and you don't love it and every time you flip it on it like bothers you you're tolerating that light and you could change that light. So part of the reason why we do the what are you tolerating is because this also dials us into how
much self consideration we're really living with? Right? What are we putting up with? Where? And why? Right? Because there's so much of it we could change totally. We just don't like a lot of those things that you'll discover on the one am I tolerating? Lists?
Maybe just keep a running list and like when you find a sticky spot, you're like, oh, like let me look into.
This, Yeah, what is this feeling?
Or let me tell the truth? Let me tell the truth. How about that.
There's like layers to get to the truth.
So sometimes you just like peel off some jackets before you finally get to the truth.
That's so crivered up and we're so taught to not yeah right, I don't need to tell you.
Yeah.
I mean I'm from the Northeast, so we're a little less than you people. But yeah, where it's like blessed, it's art. You're like, oh, you don't like that person? Why you're saying that? I mean I literally wrote about that in Boundary Box, about how in the South it is like an art form of not saying what you're saying, I know, doing it so beautifully.
I know, confusing pleasantly and all with a smile on your face, handing your sweet tea, you know, and you're like, what does happened?
At least in New York or Jersey someone's saying thank you, they'll actually just say ok you, which I appreciate. I'm all down for. I can still work with you. If we don't like to try, that's okay. Yeah, at least I know where I stand. You know what you stand. We're in good shape.
When did you have your aha moment where you're like, wait a minute, this is this? Is it?
Like this is what I'm dealing with?
And then has that been your main focus with your therapy sessions and with all of your work? Is it mainly high function codependency.
I mean it kind of is, because it's such a.
Huge thing that is a it's a revelation, it's a revolutionary in your own life when it clicks in.
Yes, I mean your your life is a perfect example of something where you literally said, I do believe it might be in that book.
I have a guest ap here as a here my name is Kindra maybe maybe which but talking about yeah, feeling like you were in the iron mask.
I felt like I was on an iron mask.
For all of life and that the realization was like a key and you can't even believe that you like had the key, and I feel like you were so not alone in that. And for me, I had a similar realization with my situation with my sister yeah, oh yeah, where I didn't realize I had a choice, right, I literally didn't. I thought to only be a good sister, I could only never give up and just be a bloody pope on the ground and keep going like there's another thing, Maybe there's one more thing I could try
to do to get her out of there. As opposed to being let off the hook by my therapist because she's like Terry, it's not that you shouldn't save your sister. It's that you can't, like it's actually not possible. It's so hard, It.
Is so, so so hard to learn.
So I had some friends go through a divorce and it like wrecked my world because it was messing up my world and it wasn't going down the way I needed it to go down, and I like super inserted myself into the situation and it was not my place.
To do that.
And I really did have to like learn this lesson because you think I'm a best friend. I'm a friend.
I care. I'm supposed to like get in there. You're not.
No who knew. But what you can do instead is learn to sit with your discomfort.
I was so uncom I mean, I'm finally just now accepting it, but it was it was.
So But how funny is that it's someone else's divorce. You literally just said, I'm finally just out accepting it.
Finally exactly my feelings.
I know.
And Terry, I thought I had like elevated to this next level of understanding and like had gotten this wisdom.
Oh no, just got a bigger trigger.
Trigger got a bigger rub, and I was like, oh gosh, I'm going back down to ground zero.
I got to start over on learning this.
No, no, no, no, let's refrain, because here's the thing. Every level of your evolution that you get to, you will be challenged. And so what happened is you got to another level of your evolution. You really did through your realizations, through your understanding of self, through your understanding
of your relational patterns. This threw you for a loop because they were close friends, and because the part of you that has been conditioned to feel like, be loyal, don't give up on people, like listen, your heart is in the right place to end. It's not your side of the street, I know, and it's okay to say, like, let's talk about what we can do instead?
What would we do? What's the correct way to handle that situation?
I mean, part of it is to you ask the people in your life, how can I best support you right now? What would feel? And be supportive? Let people tell you instead of projecting your own fears. All of us do it. But when that really changed my life, when I started asking people how can I best support you right now? From my husband, to my sons to whomever,
I stopped having a guess. And I also stopped interjecting or like sticking myself in the middle of it, of how I would want because this is that we love people the way we want them to love us, and we come out and we know this. We treat people the way we want them to treat us, so it's not necessarily the way that what they need. So your friend might have said, I need you to let me vent complain and cry about it and stop giving me suggestions. I don't need them. I'm not taking them. I'm gonna
figure it out. This is my divorce, this is my life. I will figure it out. And this is a lot of the scripts that I share in the book, too, is how do we tell people? How do we change ourselves? And then how do we tell people? If you have a friend, because I feel like HFC is traveling pacts.
If you have a friend who is auto advice giving to you and it doesn't feel good and you don't want it, you learn to say, hey, listen, I know that I've come to you in the past a lot for advice, but right now I'm really trying to really develop my own ability to decide. So I'm going to talk about something, but I'm not looking for any input, So can you just be compassionate and just let me vent or let me talk about it without you giving me your two We can ask for what we need.
We're so busy trying to control other things though when we're actively HFC that we're not very good at asking for what we need because we're all like, I'm fine, it's good, it's all good. You're like, that's not life. It's not all good. It's not all good.
And say, like, M with a friendship, you just decide that you don't align on like whatever, like it's not my life to live. But say we didn't align, it didn't go the way I wanted to do. Is there a time where it's good to give space and just be like, hey, I love you, but I know you got to go in your journey and I go on mine, And like you'd stop interjecting is that called for? Because I feel like sometimes we think we got to stay, stay, stay, when really it's not.
Yeah, it's not the right thing.
Yeah, well you're What you're actually asking is can we grow friendships? And the answer is of course. And how much of the time do we have friendships that I call historical handcuffs where we're just we got all this history, we're like kind of like family. I feel like I got to be in this thing forever. And if it's a distant one and you don't see them a lot, fine,
who cares. But I really feel like it's important that whoever's in your VIP section VIP right, whoever has access to your most tender heart, these have to be people who are emotionally trustworthy. They have to be people who add value to your life, not just our obligations. And I realized in my late twenties going into my early thirties, when I started doing all these change, all this work and all these changes, that like I had these obligatory
relationships that I kept going. I was literally the one keeping these friendships that were not satisfying to me going because I was so dutiful and I felt so obligated and guilty about everything. My therapist was like, how about you just stop getting in touch with that person. Let's see what happens. I can't even tell you how many how many? Yeah, Like, no big fanfare.
It's not a big deal to be we don't need to.
Have a breakup conversation. And maybe we do. But the thing is She's like, why do you keep calling that person? You don't really want to be friends with them anymore? And I was like, I have no idea. And when I stopped a lot of that, it just naturally came to its conclusion. So I feel like that's possible too. And then sometimes we need to also if people become toxic, if they're addicted, if they're addicted to drama, whatever the thing is, sometimes we have to take space from friendships too,
and that's okay as well. So I really have to say, though, I as a therapist, I've seen female friendships be as complicated or more so than romantic relationships. The number of women when I go speaking gigs around the country, around the world, the number of women who say to me, oh my god, I'm in this relationship, this friendship, and I just have to break it off. And I'm like, have you had a conversation like no, no, no, she's
not somebody you could talk to. I'm like, dude, trust me, if you don't do it with this person, there's going to be another person. Because our healing is in the asserting of ourselves.
Been the breaking of the path, yes.
And telling the truth like hey, this friendship hasn't been healthy for a long time. I love you, I'll always value what we've had, and I think it's time we go our own separate ways.
And then moving forward in your relationships of being just an honest, upfront person and not sacrificing yourself to try to guess what this person needs from you. Like that, I feel like, how has your life changed since you have become so aware of this?
And like, how does a life actually change?
Because I feel like there's probably a season where it's a little chaotic and you're learning this changing habits, and you don't probably feel the progress or success of it yet probably takes a while to catch up when you finally are living in recovery.
How does your life change?
Well, what you're describing first is what I call the in between. Yeah, we're like, we can't just mindlessly do the old shit because it doesn't work and we know too much. We haven't yet mastered the new shit, so we're sort of like, well, I got no skills, I don't know what's happening, but I know this isn't right right, and I know I can't insert myself and I know I have to go back and tell this person. I'm
going back on my word because I don't. I do not have the bandwidth to do this or whatever it is. And all those things will make you uncomfortable when you get on the other side, and you will. But it is a discipline. It's just like anyone who's in recovery, where it's a daily discipline, you will have so much more enner piece. And this is really what we want.
We just want to put our heads down at night and feel like, you know what I did enough today, I am enough, Everything's okay, get a good night's sleep rather than ruminating or worrying about things, and you become known, like actually known, being a high functioning codependent. What I've seen in my practice is that it creates a glass ceiling of our own making in our professional lives and
in our personal lives. Because you can't serve two bosses, right, the people pleasing boss and the actual authentic cue boss. You can't do both. There's not enough hours in the day to do that, right. So I see that there's this glass ceiling, and we get to a point of dissatisfaction. A lot of times that happens perimenopause and menopause, where women just hit a wall where they're like, oh, well,
all those other bullshit that we're dealing with. We're like, I cannot, can't with all these people and do not want to. But there's an extreme. The cycle gets extreme where we give too many f's for too long with too many people, and then you hit the wall and you're like, no f's for anybody.
Right, So you're trying to help people not hit the extremes, correct identify the sooner so you could start exactly cleaning it up.
You don't have to do that, and hey, if you're there right now, don't worry. There's a way back to the middle. But in that middle, people know who you are and all of your original and juicy and beautiful ideas and your self assertion. Right you're negotiating for your wants, desires, needs, telling the truth about what your deal breakers are, what your limits are, what is the shit you are not putting up with from people?
And maybe you had to learn it.
Maybe all that HFC high function could hfping paid off because now you know your limits?
Yes, very well, Yes, I think listen, we do have to learn it because what we're doing is that we've learned in life, how to be right? Our family's of origin taught us, how are we supposed to be? What does it mean to be a good woman? What does it mean to be a good mom and a good partner and a good friend and a good citizen all the things? And now because we reveal the downloaded blueprint or relational blueprint, and we go, oh, you know, I
don't agree with that? Like I don't. That doesn't I don't think I have to give the shirt off my back to literally anybody to be a good person. Right, we have all of these ways, this messaging for women in particular, especially in the US, of like how we're supposed to be right? And we you have to decide do we agree with that? Because I know that you can be loving and authentic and real and get done what you want to get done in this life by
not having a disease to please other people. That's what this book is doing, is curing you from overfunctioning, overgiving, overfeeling, over controlling, and people pleasing because none of those things are good for your relationships, your self esteem, or will get you what you want in life. They just doing system. Oh my god, forget it. Nervous system is shot when you're an agfcy.
I know shot, Okay, and we'll wrap up because honestly, you're amazing.
Almost hours, very so incredible.
You have so much wizom today. But what happens in your nervous system? Because I used to have chronic nervous stomach ye all the time, like twenty four hours of the day. I was constantly nervous. My stomach was always in a not. I always felt just very very nervous all the time.
Well, that's typical fight flight freeze, fawn. I mean right there, this is a reaction to feeling threatened. Right, So, even if it's quote unquote low key, even though it's not, because having a not in your stomach all the time is takes up so much bandwidth, is so exhausting. So what this does for you is it you learn I have a whole entire section on emotional self regulation, understanding our own trigger points, our own activation points, and our relationships.
What are the things that give us a not in our stomach? And let's deal with those original injuries. I'll walk you through how to do that understanding your past, which is why the whole first half of the book we go in before we go out. This isn't just about like, so how do I change all my relationships? This is about how do I actually understand why I am the way I am? And there's so much more peace and allowing and you know, there's like magic on
the other side of not thinking. We have to create reality and control reality all the time.
So true, man, it's some hard work. But it's like this has been a theme coming up lately. It's like you've got to do something and you're going to put all your energy to it and your life, so you might as well work on bettering yourself and figuring this out so you can actually have a more prosperous, peaceful.
Calm existence. You actually can just breathe and enjoy it.
Yeah, and all this fearful stuff can be behind you because if not, as you know, because you lived it for years. We can live in a state of hyper vigilance of like making sure everything is okay. But that's not going to be your most blissful, productive or happy state. It's just surviving. And we're so past that, like we're all okay. You know, it's time to thrive and not just.
Survive too much.
By Terry Cole I'm so happy to get to talk to you again tomorrow. Okay, this is not actually this will be over, but we're doing a panel tomorrow which I'm so excited with Justice' leg Julie Solomon.
We're going to talk about this.
You're kind of on a little book tour. You have the Miastermind going on. Tell us all the things that you have going on, because there's a lot happening.
So many things. I have a Mastermind and actually, if anyone is interested in joining the new one it starts in January.
That will be life changing.
It's called Flourish, So that's actually really fun. It's a small group of women where we just spend a year together working on your life and your business. Usually entrepreneurs or therapists or helpers.
But for people who don't understand a mastermind.
I got into this world by kind of just podcasting and I met authors who had stuff like this. It's an incredible asset to be a part of a Mastermind with someone like you because it's for a year long where you're checking in with people, you're having conversations, you're working through stuff, you're talking, you're forming this community.
It is literally life changing.
It is, and it's such a special, random, mystical thing that you just have to like find you, you know, because it's not like this is just it's a very experience to have this opportunity to join a mastermind with you and the women that join these masterminds are so brilliant too, and working together together and coming together it's life changing.
It really does change lives. And also it's for women who want to do what I'm doing. Yeah, so it's how do you build a brand? How do you sell a book or a three book deal for over a million dollars, which is what I did? How do you like there's so many How do you start a podcast? I've had a pod since twenty fifteen. So again it's a combination of what are the psychological ways that we get in our own way, so I help you remove those things. So it's really it really is psychologically informed,
of course because I'm a therapist. And then what are the structural ways to build a booming business? Because so much of the time therapists want they're like they want to go from the one on one practice to either teaching groups or moving into writing, you know, having more of a public image, and so light hearted women coming together. It's actually great. And then we meet two times during the year in person for three days. So we do it in Denver, New York. I think Morocco next year, John join.
I know, I know, I know, I know.
Honestly, I will definitely keep that on my radar because I want to join your mastermind. I really do be so fun, so fun, amazing. Okay, so Mastermind, and then you're doing The book is out coming out in October. Yep, we got the books in the car. We're actually gonna do a little unboxing.
Yes we are. O my god, I can't even leave them first. Look at my books right here, right now.
This is the perfect place to do it.
Yes, if people want to get the book, they can go to hfcbook dot com. And we have tons of bonuses that come with the book that will always come with the book. Even though people want to tell you should not, you should stop giving the bone why you made the bonuses for the book. Just just go get it. You're going to love it, love it.
And then Terry Cole Instagram and all the things. Yep, okay, Terry Cole, You're amazing. I always wrop up with leave your light. It's a super open ended question. What do you want people to know that you.
Can change your life, Know where you are, no matter where you've been. It's never too late, you're not too old. You're right on time.
Then you go get this book too much, and then you'll really be right on time. The best, Harry, Thank you very much.
H