Marcus Hummon

Hammond is joining me today. He grew up as a citizen of the World, living in the Philippines, Italy. After he has written huge hits for Alabama Tim mcgrawl. He wrote Born to Fly for Sarah Evans, her breakout hit, as well as Dixie Chicks, Cowboy take Me Away, My Favorite Song Ever, and Ready to Run. He won a Grammy for Best Country Song when he wrote God Bless a Broken Road and Roscoe Flats recorded it in two

thousand five. He's also married to an incredible woman named Becca and she started Thistle Farms and their mission is to be a sanctuary for healing for women, survivors of abuse, addiction, trafficking, and prostitution. I'm telling you, Marcus is one of the most interesting people I know. I'm so excited forgot to hear this interview. His inside on life is just incredible. So y'all get excited. Here is Marcus Hummond. Hello, Marcus Hummond friend. Oh yes, oh lookie there, hellove it. You

and song are just hand in hand. Okay, we gotta put this on your mouth, yes, right there, to your lips. Okay, I know a lot of lips have touched that. William Michael Morgan touched it yesterday. I'm gonna stay away from it. Did he did he? Really? I bet that was fun. Yeah, because he was celebrating his number one It was awesome. Yeah, and they got a lot to celebrate. They do engagements, engagement how about that? Which also, let's get right into it because I have a few questions. I gonna start

off rapid fire. But speaking of William Michael Morgan being engaged to Jennifer Wayne, she's a part of Runaway June. She's also they're gonna be featured on this podcast soon. Wonderful. You and I actually had a little bit of a time had a hand in it too, but it was mainly your genius wrote one of their songs. They just cut Blue Roses. Yeah, we're both of us are really excited because because you were part of the genesis of

that group. Really you were there at the time and we did a demo together, and you're killing it on the demo. I gotta tell you, I love I love Hannah, I love Hannah so much, but that demo you really did a great chow. It was fun to get to see that. Even though I can't sing low harmonies. Well

you say that that's the thing. You're a great when you have a great teacher, you can sing what they did it at the They did it at the Opry and it was particularly beautiful that one night, Oh my gosh, packed and they got up there, and you know, it's such a that particular songs so country, um and kind of blue grassy and leaning towards what they do, what they're you know, they're like, I guess I was reading maybe something you said that it's the first female trio

correct to ten years since the Dixie Chicks, which is unbelievable, and oh my gosh, talk about the Dixie Chicks. You obviously have a thing for female trios who have some folk root soul, because you wrote a ton of the Dixie Chick songs. Two of my favorites, Ready to Run, a bunch of them, but they only cut two, but they cut well. They cut two great ones, but ready to Run and my favorite song of all times, yeah, Cowboy take Me Away? You know that song like imprinted me.

I didn't, but it's you're like a little bird and you take it from its mom imprints you, I guess, Yeah, that's right. Yeah, it literally like imprinted my life. Cowboy Take Me Away was my jam when I was in high school. It was my favorite song. Dixie Chicks were everywhere. Yeah they were special, you know, they were. Um they were probably as good a group um as I have known. And you know, I've been in the business now for thirty years. Thirty years, but you're only forty. Yeah, sure,

I'm only forty five. I just like the sound of forty five now. That just sounds it's funny because that sounds so so young. Now, I know you're looking at like forty five, were like, oh man, that'd be like I'd be dead. No time flies. I really I can't believe in marty three. I remember when I moved to town at nineteen. It feels like yesterday, so young. It's so wonderful and it I'm enjoying it. But forties forties

are good though. I'll tell you I'm in my fifties now, but I will say I think the forties were We're really great. It's kind of an interesting time in a person's life. Here, what is that time? Like I think you know you just I think you it's cliche a little bit, but like you know, you know yourself better. Um, you're aimed at what you're aimed at in life. I think if you're not like trying out a million things,

I don't think you're usually you're not. And if you've found your partner in life, um, usually you know, all of that has settled and you kind of I think you're looking more for sort of the richness of that experience as opposed to you know, your eyeballs are swinging around in your head. You know that's all gone, you know, really, I mean that's kind of past and um, and by that time, if you if you're in a marriage, um, if you you know, if you're fortunate enough to have

a good marriage or whatever. You then you've got kids, and then everything takes a different shape anyway, because that's a time that the kids are growing up. And it's kind of a wonderful period, you know. It's it's you just, um, every day is pretty exciting. And the fifties aren't bad. It's just that you get in the fifties and the kids that you loved so much starting to go to school and leave home, and then you're turning into adults.

They're adults. And if your folks are alive, you know, they're um, you know, they're really old and in some cases struggling. And that's what that's what I'm going through. And I know, but a lot of us in our fifties, I mean, that's what it happens for the most part. That's like my wife lost her tragically, really lost her parents, um many years ago, how tragically well an illness and was prepared. Yeah, and her dad died in a car accent I was killed by drunk drivers. So she uh yeah,

so she didn't. Um, she hasn't grown older, you know, with parents, you know. But anyway, but I mean, I'm very thankful that my folks are still alive. But yeah, fifties is fifties different, you know, just kind of settle in for it. So really enjoy the forties, enjoy everything, but just enjoy it all, but enjoy the forties and don't be afraid, I guess more to the point, don't be afraid of the forties. Forties will be good. I'm excited about that. Yeah, okay, so you're talking I want

to of course go back. But since you mentioned this, you're talking about having a spouse that you really have a beautiful relationship with. You and Becca are amazing. And your wife is a preacher is what we call it a preacher. She's a she's a priest. She's a episcopal priest, but she does preach um. But that she actually that's her job. She's the episcopal chaplain at Vanderbilt. That's one

of her jobs. And then the thing that she's kind of in some ways most well known for as she started a residential program for women who suffered lives of trafficking um through the prison system. Initially, and that program, called Magdalen, was different because it was the two years was different in this sort the idea of radical hospitality was different. And and now there's many many cities in America that are trying to actually bring her in to

consult and figure out why did that? Why has that worked? Well, a lot of it has to do with it. Ultimately, she created a social entrepreneurial company UM called Thistle Farms and is amazing and the reason and now that's the largest social entrepreneurial in the country for women with a history of traffic event traffics products, beautiful product tapsticks and all sorts of incredible thing candles, and it gives women jobs who have some jobs and a living wage. You know,

it's not just about a wage. It's about a roof and a car and reconciling with families and and I think it it's part of that happened because she was building this two year residential program, was had some different ideas about, UM, how community can help women be released from the cycle of sexual abuse as kids. All of you know, this is hundred percent the community that that

she works with. And and then the cycle of being in prison and being out of the street in the back, you know, averaging seventy five arrests, you know, really chronic. Each person is averaging arrest and she helps with because I guess once you get in the cycle, it's just hard to break it. That's right. You know, these are kids, I mean, this is you know what it looks like. It looks like abused probably before the age of eight,

usually by someone close to you. It means you're on the street between fourteen and sixteen years old, and then you're then you're trafficked, and then you're and and it's traffic meaning like you're sold for sex, prostitution. But it also there's a there's a wonder one relationship between that and addiction, you know, because of course once you get in there, I'm sure addictions following right behind or leading

you there. Sometimes it comes the other way that you know, it's it's how you that's how the pan is going to give you, you know, your crack or whatever it is. I mean, it's an awful it's just unbelievable. But it's everywhere. It's all over the world, but it's also every and every city in a mar Arca and a lot of people don't know that, you know, but it is. And so she she leaned into that. How did she decide

to lean into that? Because that's a big lean you know, She's written several books on the subject, and excuse been very public about it, so I you know, I would not ordinarily say this, but um, she uh suffered abuse when her dad died a someone in the church when she was very young, and this went on for a while.

But instead of sexual abuse and instead of it kind of breaking her or sending her the way of the very people that she works with, the Sisterhood, that is Magdalen, that is Thistle Farms, um, And it could have And I think she's always been real, real clear about that. You know that there's not a lot of difference. There really is no difference. You know, it's just it's just people. What was that song, drugs or Jesus? Like Tim McGraw said it, kind of there's two roads sometimes when you

have a hard decision, not drugs. But obviously I don't know if that's a comparison. Well, but your point of you know that we're all it's on a you know, it's um, it's fragile. People's lives are fragile, and it were easily broken. UM, but you know you can be it can come back together, you know. She I think for her, it led her. UM two be really focused on healing herself and others. And as long as I've known her, I mean I I you know, I met her and I'm moonlighted at Divinity School years ago, and

that's how I met Becca. Um, and she was that way. I mean she was that way at twenty five years old. I'm telling you what. Yeah, I mean the first date we had. I remember where I met this girl. Right. So I'm in Nashville and I'm trying to get a record deal and I have a publishing deal, and I I was thinking, you know, I gotta just I need to meet I need to be with some people that kind of come from a little more similar cultural background.

Because you grew up as a citizen of the world. Well, I grew up overseas and my focus million different places, the Philippines. Where else would you live, Well, I lived in Tanzania. Uh So I should backtrack. My dad his work was in international economic development. So you know, the United States has embassies all over the world and in what we used to call the third world, now you call,

I think the developing world. But UM, part of our national interest in relationships with other countries is that we want to help and UM to pass back and forth economic um UM know how and you know we want to be involved in development. Uh and and you know in other cases there are places where America's seems univery concerned to have for example military UM and all of all of the places that we UM. You know that we're in relationship with diplomatic relations. We have an ambassador.

So Dad's interest, my dad's interest was economics and economic development. You know you wanted to So we lived in Tanzania, and then we lived in Nigeria, UM, and then the Philippines right when the Marquesses came in M. Marcos Ferdinand and mL de Marcos. Yeah, and then uh we actually Dad worked was in a political appointment during the Carter administration, the Jimmy car administration. That's that's when actually we moved

to Saudi Arabia. So we lived in Saudi Arabia in seventies six and seventy seven and part of seventy eight. And I UM I couldn't go to school in the kingdom because they didn't allow after ninth grade. Expatriate kids were not allowed to go to school in Saudi Arabia unless you went to a um a school in Islamic school and so I had a choice to either take correspondence courses at home, which I tried for a little bit,

but that was kind of goofy. And then the only other choice was I had to leave home, so I went. I was sixteen, I turned seventeen in Italy UM and you got to remember those of the days. It wasn't like it was no cell phone or I remember when I got to Rome, I went to I did I went to I actually went to Notre Dame International, which is a high school UM that is run by the same brothers, the Holy Cross that run Notre Dame University, even though I happened to not be Roman Catholic. But

I uh, that was a fantastic school. And it's one of these schools, international schools that of course, I grew up in international schools where you'll have American curriculum and you'll have like half the kids at the school will be whatever the the country is, so they're half the kids are Retalian and the other half our kids from all literally all over the world. You know, who are looking for a great school. Many Americans, folks with Exxon and you know, it might be with Lockheed, might be

State Department people, all kinds of people. But um, it's really it's kind of a crazy thing. It's when I went there for a year. Uh, and then my dad was restationed back to the United States and so we went back and I actually never I never lived abroad again. My parents lived in Botswana for many years so that they love Africa. They love Africa, and I traveled to Botswana a fair amount. And I'm still through our church.

I am still in relationship with a um an organization actually a hospice in Botswana that um and we raise money for them. We have a thing called the Greatest Show Ever we do every year, which is a night of impersonations I hosted. It's for dead artists and dead careers. Yeah, so we have Sadly, we have a lot of new, new new folks who got it to the lineup. I know I'm going to do Leonard Cohen though, Yeah, I gotta,

I gotta do Leonard. I just need to like backtrack, just what did you gather from living in all of these different countries, with all of these different cultures and such a pivotal point of your life when you're developing, like obviously you're preteen, teen and teen and you're living in all of these different cultures. What is that and what did that do to your thought process? I don't know. I mean that's big. Those are big. Those are good questions,

are big questions. I mean, um, probably uh well, probably an appreciation of diversity. You know, um, when you have a lot of friends who are you have friends who are Muslims, and you have friends who are you know, Buddhists, you have friends who are you know, can it can

break along nationalities, it can break along race. You know, you have friends of your Italian you have friends are Africans, you have friends you know, you just sort of that's the world that actually is there and so you live in that and you and you're proud of your country. You're proud to represent your country, because my folks used to say that, used to say, you know, remember you're representing your country. But like to give you an example,

like when we lived in Saudi Arabia. I mean, my mom's just like from a small town in Michigan, and you know she was studying Arabic you know, in a country that uh in the seventies and now that has by Western standards. You know, they there are laws towards women. You know, we're not That wasn't a pretty sot. You know. She wasn't allowed to drive, she couldn't know, she couldn't wear she had her skirts, had to have long, her dresses had to be long sleeved, had to be down

to her ankles. Did she wear something of her head? Um? I did. She had scarfs, but you know she didn't have to do like heyja or whatever. By Yeah, basically just Westerners, you know. Um. But what that tells you is that, you know, um, my folks really gave me a sense that you know, we were guests in host countries and that we should be respectful as we could, you know, of other people's traditions and their cultures. And so I guess that, I mean, that's certainly one thing,

and that, you know, affected me. I think musically, I already had parents who are kind of um, you know, I grew up My parents listened to oh god, I mean they had so much folk music. I mean it was all like, you know, Bob Dylan and I don't know, Pete Seeger and Joan Bias and all this stuff. And then they listened to classical music. They were way you know, they had met in choir, so they listened a lot to choral music and then they were they were bonkers

over Broadway music. So you've also written six Broadway musicals, which is I haven't been on Broadway, but I've been. I've done off Broadway six musicals I've written three have been on off Broadway, right, Yeah, And I've written an opera, an opera for Nashville Opera Company. And you also wrote a children's book, and you've also done a documentary. I mean, your creativity is overflowing from you. Yeah, well, you know, you having fun. You know, it's you're just a very

creative person. And you're very smart too. Like that's the thing about you. I've gotten a chance to write songs with you and like be around you're not for years. Something about the way that you were raised, Like like maybe what you said, like you understand diversity and you appreciate it, mixed with how smart you are, mixed with your love of folk and very good lyric lyrical music with great melodies. The way you write songs is literally

unlike anything I've ever experienced. Really sweet of you to say that. And we've and you and I we've we've had some we've done some music together too, That's one I love. I'm not you know, I don't know your how your fans, you know, but I'm sure they know this about you're a very very good musician. That's not true. That is true. You have a beautiful voice, and you

have a great sense of music. Well, when I'm with a great teacher, you said you struggle with you know, harmony is a funny thing, you know, because I'm kind of a I'm a harmony I'm just nutso about harmonies. But you can hear like seventeen different harmony parts. I don't know I hear, you know. I started writing choral stuff um one of the latest projects. Uh. I was commissioned a couple of years ago to write a cantata,

so a passion cantata for the church. So the Episcopal Cathedral said, you know, we'll give you a few some bucks. And I started working over at Belmont with this group called the Chamber Singers and Dr Dean and Sminger and and I don't really read music except Nashville style numbers and and I'm an ear player on piano and different instruments. You play a lot of instruments, A few instruments. But I also got into this process because I was writing

theater through the years. I started to get this idea that I wanted to do my own harmonies, my own and then begin to think of it in terms of choral music. And so got into this process and built some relationships at a couple of conservatories where I could send files where I would duplicate. I might sing four part you know s a TV, and then I would send I would triple or quadruple. You know I should

say this. And I know this because right now I've been working with a hundred person choir at Belmont, and I work people at one time. Last week we recorded something and then Friday we're gonna finish. We're putting the other fifty kids in the room because we couldn't get

all hundred in. And I'm working with the the the conductor arranger, Professor Dr Jane Warren on this one, and she she's actually taken my uh choral arrangement which was transcribed at the Heart Conservatory that's how I do it, um. And then she has actually added some parts so that we could have true you know, um, true soprano parts. So for example, I mean yeah, I can do sa TV falsetto and then early in the morning I sing

bass and I'm a natural tenor. And uh but that actually, you know, there is a range of singing that is I can't do it. And because my my painting, you know, my color is my paint brush is just my voice. That's how I write, you know, I write by singing everything. And I spent a lot of time on it, you know, but it's a it's a super fun thing. And this just now this year we published the National Church. Episcopal Church has just released a book actually called The Passion.

I called it The Passion and Beck and I, my wife and I wrote um a little book about each of the six movements within the cantata, and then it attached to it is the the the CD itself called The Passion and CTM I ex publisher. They put it out as an album and then you can buy, like the Score, you can buy each you know. So it's

going to churches. And sometimes a passion narrative or a passion is really something that is done at pom Palm Sunday, because on Palm Sunday in the church, you know, you don't you don't have an Easter song, although I added one anyway, you know, what the heck? Can you get the guy out of the grave? Right? But I you know, I uh in Palm at Palm Sunday. It's it ends

on the cross, that's it. Right. So when we think of Lent, we think of the season of Jesus coming to Jerusalem, which of course ends in his in his death in those famous stories the Last Supper. Uh, get so many? You know so much? Do you know so much? Now? You know? You know what it really was, Carolina. It was really fun because when they asked me to do it. Of course, whenever I get offered something like that, I always just say yes, and then I kind of figure out how to do it as well. I mean, how

otherwise how are you gonna have any fun? But I thought it was fun to go back. You know, I'm not a big, big Bible reader. I'm not a but you must have like a photographic memory, because you pretty much know all the stories just in this little conversation. I can say, this little conversation is because that was

two years ago. And to do the piece, you know, I went back and to learn I went back to the four Gospels and said well, um, it's like a libretto, right, it's like a script or a a lyric if you like, for a cantata. That cantada is just an extended work for voices and instruments. And so it's a forty five minute piece, you know. So I had to go back and kind of go, well, wait a minute, okay, you know what both what what does each gospel say about this occurrence? I make it into music exactly, I mean,

And and who are the characters? Now, let's think of them as characters. Do you read it like you were studying? That's correct? Yeah? I love that. Well, it made for and that was part of what I wanted to write about in that little book, is that I realized because I'd come out of theater now and because I was a roots writer. I mean, I write if I'm writing country folk, bluesy stuff, because that's where your heart is, and that's your like, that's being like a populace like

folk meaning voke like of the people. So you think, okay, so then you take that lens and you point that at Lent and Jesus. And for me, you know, it's really really hard to write for some transcendent creature whose mind you can't fathom, like God, like looking at Jesus

in those terms as you write music. But if you look at things like um, if you look at Jesus and you say um, something like um, that you know, if you think of Jesus as standing against semony and saying and somebody I guess hearing it right in theory because that's why they wrote it down. Uh. He knows what's coming, and he says, let this cut pass for me, and goes through kind of some thought process which we have written down for us in the Gospels. But then

at the end of that says his process. He removes through his prayer, and he says, but not your will, but not my will, but yours. So as a as a writer of theater and as a person you know who looks for emotion in a situation, I understand the emotion of what I think is being afraid. I think I don't think you say let this cut pass me unless you or maybe pretty clear that you know the one of the most brutal oppressive nations ever row is going to you know you're you're in for some serious persecution.

And so that to me is very that you can write to that, I can write to that. So you need a story. So how important is faith in your music or in your life? I don't know. I mean, I guess about as important as anything. I guess. I mean, I think about the term faith. Um, you know what, do I have faith in what you have? I don't know. Sort of probably, I think fundamentally, I I would say I have faith that there's a loving God. I think that's probably kind of number even in the world with

all the chaos. How do you know there's a loving God? I do not. You just have decided to believe, yes. And I also have you seen truth and signs of it? Yeah? Oh sure all the time, the and the courage of people, and the love that of one another, and and also in the beauty of the you know, for like the like the Great Hand, for the beauty of the earth. Um. I see signs all the time. I see other things too, um.

And I also have, like a lot of people, like probably all of us, I have a lot of times where um, that faith is shaken, or people refer to dark knights of the soul, or that you're kind of in dialogue with it. Um, it's almost to me it's a little more. The way I interpret faith might be more like a choice. I choose to think of a loving God, and for the most part, I believe. I choose to believe that. You know that, uh, that there is a as Martin Luther King said, you know the

arc of history spending towards justice. I I choose to believe that even when sometimes evidence would appear to the contrary. And um, that's I don't know how to put it. Differently, I'm afraid it's a little no. I love that like kind of oddly existential position without a lot of proof. I think faith doesn't have a whole lot of proofs sometimes. Yeah, okay, so you I want to get back to your music a little bit, because so you grew up in all

these amazing countries, your citizen of the world. You understand diversity, You under appreciate it, appreciate it. Your parents have this great musical catalog that they listen to. You grew up playing instruments, writing songs. When did you start writing songs? How old are you you know it was? It was sporadic. Um I can remember writing. Um, I don't know. I think I was eleven in Nigeria, is the first time

I ever did anything musical. Like a friend. I had a friend who was Pakistani guy, well half Pakistani's mom was English novid Bernie. And remember he's a very good guitar player and he's a good singer, and he wanted to form a band. So I like to play drums. So we had all these But when I say drums, it wasn't a drum kid. I had a bunch of

African drums. Well, they're bigger than bongos. There were some about that, says, but some are kind of large, but they're just you know, they're they're wooden carcasses with a you know, stretched skin over it and and then um. And Nigeria they had things called talking drums to re that are with the the skin draped over the wood is actually um held together on both ends by um

string or hide that you know, rolled into string. And what you do is as you play the drum with a stick, you actually press the strings around it and it makes the go. And actually they're talking drums because you can actually make them, can create language out of it. That's that's crazy. You started a band when you're when we were actually had tv um. I had one little moment on TV, and yeah, I was drum so my

first that was the start. That was my start was actually, and I never It's funny because I I never really have been asked that actually, and that's I'd forgotten that that's the case. You say, your age ten or eleven music and your family were your parents musical or very very musical, but that wasn't their career. But they met and they met in choir, and my mom was to this day, she's very good pianist. My dad's a good piano player. My mom reads music really well. She can

play a pipe organ two with pedals. Dang organ is hard to play. And then she grew up playing I think clarinet, and dad also grew up playing trumpet. You're from a family of savants. No, you really might be. You met him? No, No, no, you might be. You are definitely from a family of savants. I don't think savants know their savants though. I think that's the key here. It's like, you know, the the what do they say? Sometimes she doesn't know she's that's not she don't know.

She's beautiful. You don't know you I don't know. I'm not sure. We just know so much stuff. You know, really, I don't. I don't know, Caroline. That's very sweet of you. I just I think that the thing that might be different is, you know, if you grew up in a lot of different places, you end up having sort of, um, a variety pack of ideas about Are you so glad that you got to grow up all over the world? I am, yeah, I mean I know that When I

was a kid, sometimes we used to fantasize. I used to fantasize about the kind of small town America life that my parents had. You know, who grew up My mom grew up in her dad was had a dairy store. My father's folks, my grandfather was a farmer. And I think even when I first got to Nashville, some of the first recordings I ever did that sounded real country or that leaned into kind of really an upbringing I didn't have was about fantasizing about out an Americana existence

that interesting. You know, there was a song that very first I had a lot of record deals that didn't happen. So how old were you when you moved to Nashville. So I went to college and I finished college, Um, and I was a year older than everybody because I had been held back in Italy, you know, I mean I didn't when I was inside. I was held back Saudi Arabia when I so I was you know, I graduated at nineteen and then went to cost it was

a little bit older. Um so I really the whole thing happened later for him, and I didn't even get into I didn't get serious about music until college. Really, so you just run bands enjoying it, but you didn't know that was in the band. And you know, your first band with your Pakistani friend, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. And then you're also in a band with your sisters. You also had a little bit out with your sisters called uh you had Wing Harmony and then

red Wing. Well these are all stretched over a very very long period of time. So the band with yeah, I played music with this kid Navida. Um. But then music throughout up into high school and into college for me was periodically. I um got really interested in guitar and and then I studied guitar a little bit again, kind of intermittently. And whenever I took up the guitar and developed was developing my own style of playing for

whatever reason, I always wrote songs. It's just like that became those two things were completely playing guitar and then um. But I wouldn't say I took it particularly seriously, never thought of it like professionally. I just I remember when I was in the Philippines at fifteen, I was lucky enough. I I took lessons from a guy named Sammy Kleimaco, who was a big rock star in the Philippines at

the time, and he was great. And then when he kind of uh and then briefly I went to a guitar institute when I was in the Philippines, which is really wacky because it was a guitar institute in the Philippines. My teacher was Japanese and he was teaching them Have you written a musical about your movement life? That's your next one. But he taught American finger four finger role kind of technique. And it's a particular technique that I, you know, used to this day. And so you have

a lot of influences in your guitar playing. I do, actually I think I have. Um. You know, Paul Simon's guitar playing. He was the guy that played that uh fingerstyle he was probably I mean he and James Taylor

is probably my favorite fingerstyle players. But um, I also love rhythmic groove guitar and so um that would you know, I don't know where it got, you know, Um maybe Richie Haven's that kind of real, you know, kind of just groove and um and I love Bob Marley and I loved you know, a lot of afropop to where rhythmic ideas are are used, um in a different way. Then you bring all that to country music. So you get serious about it in college and then you go, okay,

I'm moving. I know. You go to l A for a minute, and then you decide to relocate to Nashville, and you're like, I'm going to do this at Nashville. You get to Nashville, you get a publishing deal right away, and you get a song cut by win No No only lot takes. That takes a little while, so because I mean, that's a big song. Yeah, so that's a few years away. But yeah, I get I get signed.

I'm only twenty five. I get here in eighties, but I get here in eighties six, so I don't get that cut until ninety I think, Okay, So you're here like four years. Yeah, and then before then I actually have um I actually have a record deal on Columbia. No. So well, here's the thing that you wouldn't necessarily know

because um I had um several record deals. How many record I think Columbia was honestly, I have to go through them, but I think it was the fifth mtm uh there was an art these are now these are development deals, Okay, so this is a different time. Development deals mean they signed you and they're going and just watch you. Developed help you. They put money into you.

And the old, the classical development deals that we don't see much of anymore, was that they would you would sign a deal, and the deal with sort of also you'd be required to sign something that you're going to sign the larger deal. Okay, so you're already kind of chained to it. And then they're going to give you like twelve grand or fifteen brand and you're gonna coke cut like three to four sides. And this period is gonna it's gonna happen over six to nine months period

of time. Then they're going to have the first option. They're gonna have the right they no one else can make it a take you or they can decide to let you go. That's correct. And if they take you, then the other thing clicks in that the basic deal that you've already you've already agreed to, so to the development deal and a contract to deal in theory or not. And so I had a series of or not. So actually the first or not is not fully my fault. The first or not and the first real record deal

was Mary Tyler Moore Records. You knew Mary Tyler, I never ever met her. I was signed by Tommy West who was Jim Crow cheese producer, and he was at this label and the label had Julie, Judy Rodman and the Forester sisters. Tricia year was was was the actually she was the gal at the front desk, that was the front she worked out and they had Paul over Street. Did you see Tricia? Of course absolutely, she was like

answering yes. And I remember I remember somebody saying, you know she by the way, she can really she really sing a demo if you need anyone for a demos, if you gotta if you gotta chick song, or you know, you get Tricia. No. I remember, in fact, in that part of I tell you, I saw I met Garth for the first time. I'm like, I'm the last person in Nashville who's been around this long to meet Garth.

But I because I working on a movie that that we needed to interview, and he was gracious enough to give an interview, and um we met at the Bluebird for this uh, for the filming of this thing. Just it was just a few weeks ago, and I was like, I remember Tricia when she was front and desk, and you know, I just it was It's wild to have the you know, when you're around a long time, you

just you've seen a lot of different people. But yeah, I know I was on that label and they had the reigning UM Female Focus of the Year was Judy Rodmans. It was real serious company and they they're publishing side because they took up part of my publishing. That's the way those deals were. Those days you had to give up, you know, but they had Remember they had Foster and Lloyd's Faster and Louder album, uh, which you know became

a seminal kind of country uh rockabilly. I mean the if you're not familiar that record, Faster, I mean that period of time the late eighties. I mean that's when everything went exploded, you know, because well I was, you know, but just just you know, dumb as a stone about it. I mean in a way. I mean, well I didn't

know anything, you know. And I even remember I had a guy once I won't say what his name is, but in my first publishing deal Nashville, I had one of the head guys called me into his office and said, you know you should leave. You should leave. Yeah, he said you should leave. And he's like, you know, you're not hill billy and what we do here is make hill billy music. And you know, he says you should you should go. And I remember he said to me, goes,

you know, you know who you remind me of? And I was like, oh god, you know and I said, oh who, And he goes, well, you remind me of Dan Fogelberg. And I was like, wow, well, you know, thanks for that. And he goes, that's not a compliment because he was saying, that's not going to make an attention. He goes, I hate Dan Fogelberg. What does this guy get to be the authority? Well, he just was at the time, without telling you who he was. I mean, he had a he had a lot going from. Now

tell you this about this guy. Years later after sticking it out as I did for a long time, and then and then beginning to have hits and let's not forget you did ultimately one song in the year with God Bust the Broken Road of Rascal Flats Win a Grammy. We gotta get into your song resume here after this because it's a huge and amazing He actually I remember seeing him on the street, um walking around music crow, and he did. He came up to me said, by the way he goes, I just want you to know

I was wrong about you. Oh well, thanks, Well, I mean, you know, the little victories in life, you know. But on the other hand, he was like, after you wont a grahammy gotten all these Dixie chick songs? Everyone wasn't He partly right in one sense, um in the in the you know, it didn't come. I didn't grow up in country music. But you know, I had a couple of things that I could hold onto. One is that folk blues are not very different, not really, not to me.

And if you're a lyricist and you're a piano player and you like guitars, and you play mandolin and later you like to pick up the banjo. You're gonna be all right. You know, you play all those instruments. Yeah, but not doesn't mean I play them all well. But I played a couple of them pretty well. But you know, it was the right place to be. I think it was not the right place. Maybe you were ahead of your time because now country music is pretty wide over

or solidly backwards. You know. I think that a friend of mine, my my dearest co writing buddy, is Darryl Scott and the most long time compatriot in this business. And he has said to me many times, said, you're just you know, you grew up in the seventies and really everything you do just sounds like the seventies and it's awesome. That's kind of that's kind of with Midland the new band out, Their whole band feels like throwback seventies. Yes, try to hook that up. Really a good combo. I think.

You know they say every thirty years trends repeat. I'm telling you so maybe I'm going to come back in a vogue. It's about it's about to be. Marcus Heyday Part two, Marcus Ad Part two. Well, you know, you never you nevers continue, you know, you get you know, it's been a it's been a while since I've had a number one. Well, you're probably about to have one with Blue Roses with a totally give it right here. Wait yeah, folks, this is us booming, just putting it

out there in the universe. Tell me why that first development deal Wasn't your fault that you lost it? You never said why, that's right, yeah, because it was. There was a series of them. There was our c A and and uh and I was with the original Arista label, Major labels, they're all majors. Yeah, they were Liberty. Uh literally, the fifth one was Colombia and then and they and that was Paul Whorley and Scott Simon, your friends of mine.

There's an old saying that, you know, if you stick around long enough, your friends become record presidents, then you get deals. But that's kind of what happened to me. And then and then unfortunately, right in the middle of the development of my album, they actually they left and so I, as you know, I stayed very close to both of them, but I spent you know, Paul Whirley cut more, which actually probably led to a great relationship

with him when he started producing The Dixie Chick. Now that a number of things that Sarah Evans and produced. Sarah Evans produced Sarah which you had a huge hit with Sarah Evans Born to Fly, Born to Fly. That was her first single, right, No. One of the first big song was three Chords in the Truth and that was her first solo album, but it was but Born to Fly was the first one. I mean that was nominated. Never forget that song of the Year. I mean it was a serious That's why I like to me, that's

sin Sarah Evans got put on the map. That was so beautiful. That was a groovy record too, Yes, and that song was amazing. Yeah, and Paul. See the other thing about Paul is that Paul always let me play guitar um on on the record. So you know when we did Ready to Run or we did Born to Fly, you know that I got to play acoustic guitar do to do that little groove thing, you know, and I remember it changes the whole song because no one can

play a guitar like you, really they can't. Well, thank you, I mean, I guess, I mean, I think there is something there is something about it. You know that some songwriters, and I'm not at all the only one there's I mean, there's many who they're really tied to the instrument that they composed with. And and yeah, it's a part of this is true that sometimes to get that actual feel, you know, you you do go to the kind of the source of whatever that the central groove is the

same way like a vocalist. Certain vocalists, you know, have such a distinct sound that only that person can see. It's the way you play guitar. Well, I tell you, I know that. Like again, a guy was even he's got more instruments and and I think he's farther along than I am. I think is Darryl Scott. And I know that through the years that often when people would

cut his song as they like they cut. I think when Travis Tritt cut A Great Day to Be Alive, he was smart enough to bring Daryl into that one. Yeah it's on his albow Aloha from Nashville and um, but he also was the other writer on Born to Fly so and actually we gotta cut yesterday. Uh it's called I Neita River and I wrote it with Darryl and it's very it's very and and Sonya Isaacs actually and Sarah had called me and she's got she's cutting a new record this week yesterday yesterday. But it's one

of my favorites. And I keep a running list of like I got like songs, like a list of your favorites. Yeah, that haven't been cut. That's smart because sometimes you might forget if you don't keep of your head. That's right, and then you go back and I've realize that, I mean, periodically, you know, you're you're you're long enough in the business,

people will occasionally. I mean, I would love it if Blake Shelton and some of these other the more broke country guys if I knew them and they wanted my to hear my songs. I don't know them and they don't ask me for them. But you know, but as Sarah Evans will, and there are different artists that's will come my way and they'll say, you know, and I can pitch and I'll look, but I keep them. And and she actually wrote me a note and she said, you know, I need another song that's sort of like

it lives in the Land of Born to Fly. And I was, like, got it, and I went back and I was like it was on an album. The last album I did. Darrell actually produced an album on me called Rosanna, and I picked. I cut a few hits, but then I cut a bunch of stuff that that I that I just do that are new songs that I did love that I love and that I've always loved that song and and I've always scratched kind of head scratch her because I would try to pitch it.

I've I've pitched it before. I think I've actually pitched it to Sarah before. The difference was the right time, it wasn't the right time. Plus it wasn't direct. I think I probably went through a gate keeper. And in this one, she just you know, as she does periodically, she'll just come right. So much better to be able to pitch directly to the artists. Yeah, and you get an immediate answer, you know, or immediate silence, and if nobody says anything, you know what that means that that'd

be your country West. I want to run through some of your songs you've written. Okay, so you wrote Alabama Cheap Cheap Seats, which I freaking love that song. You've written songs for how catch on Patty Lovelace? Was you write for Patty Lovelace? I wrote Over My Shoulder is a song wrote for Patty and uh and Roger Murrow I think, was the other writer, and you wrote you wrote for the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band. And then you've also so you broke onto the songwriting scene with only

Love for why I notice amazing. You've also written wrote one of These Days for timmer Girl, which which nuver two One of These Days You're Gonna Love Me? Yeah, that's song. But you Gotta go Our and Art went to number one and R and are. The reason you have to count that is that I count those things because B and I gives you a cup. And I was reading the thing recently somebody I was somebody I was.

I was doing some show and it said, like I don't know, it said like three number ones, and I was like, hey, come on, now, come on, now, give it. Did that song come from? Because that is one of the sweetest, sensitive, most sensitive and like it's kind of like almost not like anti bullying song, but it is like it. I remember when that song came out, I

bought the whole album for that song. I don't know that's well, you know that, and that was the center, that was the the hub on the you know, with the spokes around it for my album, the album All in Good Time. I remember, you know, when we first started to build that record, I was like, one of these days, every song has to relate to this song. Did you know that song was important? Yeah? I knew,

I mean I I did. I tell you The one I didn't know it was going to be big was on that same album, the original the first piano version of Blessed Road and when that has an interesting story because and when Jeff and I wrote it, you know what Jeff Hannah, I was on piano, and when he he had gotten back from his honeymoon, and so that whole rolling, the very specific piano part that's on it and is central to the song when the Dirt Band did it, and the point of that of that writing

that song was to get on Jeff Hannah's record. So I had sung at his wedding. I sung only Love at Matresa Berg Jeff Hannah their wedding, they went on honeymoon, and I knew that I was going to get to write with him on um when when he got back and I had this conversation at a bar with this guy, Bobby, Bobby boy Um who just had you know, my recollection is just with such an inspirational, kind of interesting thing that he said about his life that I wanted to

make that God was the broken road. No, it wasn't that kind of thing. It was it was really talking about UM knew he was. It's you know, it's one of those stories you almost don't want to tell it, but he was. He was talking. He was in the middle of, um a hard time in his marriage, but he found this other person who subsequently be you know, it's been hadn't been married and you know, for for years.

And what he really said to me at the time was he was kind of talking about things he would do differently and feeling being honest about feeling bad about some things that had happened. But then he kind of what I recollected it is, he kind of stopped right in the middle of it and and he just said, you know, I, when I think about it, though I know this person is this another this new person is the person I love and I was meant to love. This is my soul mate. And so because I I

don't know I guess I wouldn't change anything. And that's what struck me about. That's what I remember. It's not I mean, it's not a huge it's not like some cataclysmic thing, but but it inspired this whole song which that song then this is what I love about. Now you wrote that song and not until like seven years later or was it longer the song was written? The song was first recorded in ninety three, and when did it make its way to Rascal Flats two five or six?

Somewhere in there was the release. So you wrote the song in nine and then not in til years. I can't do so like fifteen years later about it made whoever is listening to this, y'all do the math a lot of years, twelve twelve tomatoes years, two years ago, it makes its way so twelve years after you write four years ago, I'm just doing math as we say. Yeah, so it's a long time, makes its way to Rascal Flat and then it goes on to become Song of the Year, and then it goes on to win a Grammy.

How crazy is that? A song that you wrote twelve years all the way now making it to the top of the top. You can't get bigger than the Song of the Year and winning a Grammy. No, I mean, all I remember is, uh, it was great. I mean I I lost a Grammy once before, I lost for Ready to Run for Song of the Year, and it was Ready to Run for the Dixie Chicks was also

in a huge movie. Yeah, it was. The funny thing is now there is a song that actually sat at number two and both of those charts are in Our and Billboard and the old in those days they used to before they combined. It used to be that you had to get one or the other and then that's when they give you the little silver cup from BM and you then you'd get a party and all that. And Ready to Run was you know, it was tough because it was massive, you know it what movie was

run Away, bro? But that record, you know, there was all this attention to like, what's going to happen with Flaw because the first one, you know, went diamond, Diamond, Diamond, and no one does that anymore, barely, no one has.

I mean, they're still the biggest selling female group in the history of country music, for sure, but they you know, we're we're talking about a group that when Fly went out, I mean, you know, now it's like fifteen million or something like that for a country group that really, you know, whose career and country kind of ended because they piste off the most powerful man in the world. I mean, you have to you have to realize, you know, how big it was. And I didn't see but I didn't

see it coming at all. I mean, I'm not talking about the President Bush stuff, but like the I knew that they were good and all. But you know, I mean I knew that they were really good, and you just never know what's going to happen, you don't know. I mean I did never got on the inside of the Garth thing or the inside of any of the or the Shanaia thing. I didn't catch a wave. But with the with the chicks, I caught the way, caught the wave hard, you know, and we had the you know,

let me back to back. It was like it was unbelievable. What was that time of your life? Like, well, it was crazy, you know. And I remember I flew down to Dallas and my uncle I used to spend time with my real uncle I was really close to, and

um I saw them perform. You know, I don't have thirty thousand people and and um, I'd never really experienced a concert where you know, people look like they're having are they're falling out, like they're having a religious experience, you know, and to your songs and um, it's it's heavy. I mean, it's it's it's trippy to see it. I

it puts into perspective some bad stuff too. I like, what well, the last record deal I did was, um, I did the Columbia record, and then afterwards I started a little record company, a digital company with Scott Simon called I started put out records, and I was starting to write theater and and I'd make records of that. And so consequently there's you know, there's all kinds of records. I mean, I still think, um, the sound of one fan clapping is probably probably the Latin Rosanna. The best

records I've ever made. The first one ever made was a sound of one fan clapping, which was almost picked up by E m im it was not going to be a country record. Um. And then I met this guy, Stewart Adamson, and he was a and this this relates to my what I'm saying about people screaming at you, you know, Stuart Adamson was the lead guitarist and singer and the soul writer for the group Big Country Scottish rock group in a Big Country Dream Stay with You

Like a Lover's Boys. It's a huge, massive worldwide hit. Came out about the same time as um Bano. Prior to that, he's been a guitar player for a group called The Skids, kind of a seminal punk band. Anyway, this guy, working class Scottish guy, right, tall, handsome dude, brilliant guitar player, like crazy right, and he moves to Nashville's in the middle of a divorce and he's had there's a lot of story, but he's had many, many hits in England. But he's also been in and out

of rehabs and he's just a real character. And I meet him Sony actually as I'm leaving introduces me to him, and about a year later we became buddies and we he liked to fly fish. I like to fly fish, and he used to come hear me play with my band, the Pretty Red One, because I have an on going just sort of relationship with a bunch of musicians which

sometimes we call the Pretty Red Wing Band. Through the years, and he loved our band, and he finally you know, he's one of the great guitar players, like ever you know, rock guitar players, and he started bringing his strat and then he would get on stage and we'd play, and then he finally said, let's let's make a record together. So we made a record right now, the duo called the Raphaels. Yes. So the thing about it is, though, is that in the relationship to the Chicks is that

you know, Stewart was kind of starting up again. He was still opening in the summers for the Rolling Stones. Okay, then we put out we make this album and he fell off the wagon. So, you know, without without dragging this way too far down, Um, just things got the best of them. He died. We released the album and he uh. We went on our tour in Scotland, England and Ireland, and um, did you love this album? Yeah, it's a beautiful it's called Supernatural. It's a fantastic. Yeah,

it's a duel. But it has a couple of members. There were some some instruments. There are some guys from his band, I mean there mostly it's it's John Mock, John Gardner Gardener who played on the fly tour uh, and a longtime buddy of mine, Mark Prentiss on bass and Darrell Scott played a bunch of things. And then and then well we started to and uh and then he um yeah, and he actually um went into d t s uh uh like alcohol shock kind of thing,

and we couldn't finish the tour. And then I waited in Ireland for him, and he was hospitalized, he went into a coma and it was very, very sad anyway, and and again I don't even talk about too much, but the um I got back to the United States, I saw him one more time, and then he took his own life. Yeah, so so terrible, and and I think for me that was so of the that was the end of trying to get record deals. I'll tell

you that. But then I was thirty nine, I might have been thirty nine forty two, and it was like I didn't even I wasn't even that crazy about being on the road. But this was like some weird dark Fellini film or something, you know what. I think it was awful because the music was amazing, but then the rest of it was kind of well, it's dark dark. It doesn't get any darker, you know, a guy that you're close to, you know, and it occurred to me

that you know, he grew up. Of course, a lot of people suffer from addiction, and you know, um, I grew up in a family where that was part of our lives. And then of course my wife's work is entirely in addiction. But you know, he lost that battle and um, but he's also a kid that you know, by the time he was in his early twenties, he was playing at Wembley. So while I was playing down at Douglas Corner, no I'm not I'm not dog in

Douglas Corner. I cut my teeth on Douglas. Yeah, man, I love that place is like the biggest, playing for many five thousand people. And you know, when he played too, he was kind of a Scottish nationalist kind of vibe. I mean, in terms of the way people interpreted him. It's very Scottish. He could play a guitar and make it sound like a bagpipe. It's really a remarkable musician. But I've seen that band play and people wave flags like there and me it's literally like they're going to

war or something. It's like a revival people like huge deal, you know, like he was a cult figure for a generation. And and I think the you know, a lot of that is I mean a lot of that's really hard to How do you process? I mean, how do you just go home like, oh great, I'll take the trash out kind of the same like you were saying with the Dixie Chicks, they blew up so big. It's so big, you know that that's the thing that so you're asking,

you know, like what, um, what was that? Like? Yeah, it was heavy, but it was a wave that wasn't my wave. You know. It was like I was riding it, but they were on the surfboard and they were going somewhere and I was just kind of there. It's part of my journey, you know, and I love that I have to this day. You know, they they came of course, as we all know, they finally have done a national tour now they're and around the world. And when they

came through town. You know, I've remained really good friends with Marty who I wrote those two songs with, and U and I mean, you know, I've remained friends with the group. Um and they got tickets for my kids and my wife and we went and it was crazy, you know, it was I don't know, if you're there the love for the Dixie Chicks out of this intense yeah,

and they're and they're up. They're up to it, you know in the sense that like they go out on stage and you like you go, all right, I remember, you know, particularly there's this moment in the in the show where they send the band away. Not that I don't love the band. I love the band, but they and then they bring the band back but in a you know, a completely acoustic place, and so Emily and

and Marty are playing there. You know, they're very good musicians and everyone around them and they're kind of the way that the sound and the you know, it's not just so massive you can't discern it. You can hear the you could really hear them and their voices stuff, and you go, holy crap, these guys are really This is what roots country songs are great. This is what you know what this is the sleeping giant. You know,

this can sell. This is the kind of thing that takes over and and it's the kind of thing that brought I mean, I got so many friends from where I went to school, like in New England enough. Everybody loved him. They didn't care a lick, you know, whether or not it was country or I mean, they didn't and they brought. It's funny too because it brought a lot of people into country music who are like, whoa, whoa, whoa whoa whoa whoa. Who's what you know, Sarah Evans records?

What Patty Loveless? You know like music? Yeah, and that's what. But you when you look at that music now, if you think about records now, if you listen to Fly, you have a Patty Griffin song, you have rock things, you have, soul things, you have you know, it's very they were very There was an eclectic quality. Lyrics were talking about Cowboy taking away. It's kind of a turn to simplicity. Goodbye Earl is a great, you know, an

amazingly funny piece of country writing. You know, Um, come mind, if some dames you want to dance, it's just pure groove fun. I mean it goes on and on and uh that you know to some extent. I mean not to be um Mr Critical, because I don't I don't really I don't really want to, you know, I think at times today I think and I'm not at all the only person who said that, but there there is a tendency towards, you know, things being a bit similar,

uh a little less diverse. And I don't think that particularly. I think sometimes things in the radio, people think, oh, let's just try to get match the hits that are out there instead of making a whole work of art

that is actually authentic to the artists. Yeah. Well, when you go to writing sessions and I and you know, I see young kids who are coming up in the business saying, well, I've been studying beats per minute, you know, assessing, you know, taking the top ten hits the last year, and then you know, looking at it like, you know, like you're gonna analyze this. Well, to me, it is and I get you know, I get it, like I

know that that's one way to do. I mean, the one of almost day one when I got to music out of college, I was at a studio in Carmel, California, and um, not Carmel, I'm sorry, um in the but

it was somewhere in the valley anyway. And I won't name the guy's name because this is not a happy reflection, but I remember him pulling me into the office, and he said, what what you need to do is just take the top ten songs on the chart and this isn't pop and he said, you should, you know, write down the chord progressions and then the lyric and make and then get a little get a rhythm track that's exactly the same rhythm, switch around the cords and take

the basic subject matter and just make it your own. And he says, that's how you're right. Yeah, so, you know, and a listen as a way of analyzing music that's popular at the time. Of course that's you know, yeah, that's that's probably relevant. But it was exactly, you know, an athema to what I wanted to do with my life. I mean, I don't care about any of that stuff.

You yeah, I mean you can sit around your kid, you growing up listen to Kat Stevens and Joni Mitchell and and uh, you know, Jimmy Webb songs or you know, Paul Simon. I mean, those guys they're like, you know, recreate. I mean, they created a language, you know, where they affected by things. Of course they were absolutely we always are, but you know they were laying it out there. Neil Young Records, Oh my God, sit around in front of a speaker and listen. Oh man, take a look at

my life. He's like twenty four years old when he wrote that, but who cares? It was great. I love that and I love that. That is where you come from, and I think that is what makes so many people drawn to your music, because it is so it keeps me not entirely successful to know. Oh my gosh, you're kidding me, speaking of success. So we've had okay, one of these days to mcgrawl, why not a Jude only Love, Alabama Cheat Seats, Brian White Love is the right person.

I love that something Number ones, Cowboy, Take Me Away, Ready to Run, Dixie Chicks, Born to Fly, Sarah Evans, and then Song of the Year, God Bless the Broken Road. I'm sure I'm missing some. I mean, you are absolutely out of the sort. You look at all this stuff I haven't written, like winning a Grammy for Rascal Flat. You've written six musicals and opera. You have three off

Broadway shows, The Warrior, The Piper, tut Off Broadway. You're sort of children's book Anytime Anywhere, documentary, Lost Boy Home. I mean, there's so much with you, but I'm gonna have to wrap you up because you could literally I could talk to you for seven hours because your life ex well, I'm just excited that I get to interview you, that my job allows me to talk to someone like you,

because you're so interesting. But I like to wrap up with with all of your life, all of these experiences, all of these countries, all of these artists you've worked with, all these record deals, all of these highs, all these loads, like even your wife, her ministries, the church, you have children, your sons. LEVI I know he's getting into music. He's awesome. Y'all wrote a great song together called make It Love, which made a documentary, sang It last night. I Love

that was that documentary. Oh it's a it's a documentary called two Yeah, Desmond Child and Curtish Shaws two sons. So that was love that. So I mean, I'm just even still scratching the surface. Your life is so deep and eclectic. I like to wrap up with leave your LIGHTE. Give me some inspiration on how how you've been inspired and how you would like to inspire others, Like what is that questions You've got good answers though, Uh listen

if you're writing. You know, it's uh, you know, find yourself. I mean, be connected to your work. I mean, I think the thing that I tell younger writers if I I'm old enough now that occasionally I get asked to, you know, talk to groups and stuff, and I talk a lot about for me, you know, I think it's exciting to be passionate. I think it's exciting to um

even consider that. Um, if things aren't very good economically in the songwritting business, I'm co producing and scoring a movie right now called The Last Songwriter about the terrible attrition we've had in our business and over the last ten years we loved of our writers. UM, and that'll be out of that's that's gonna be a very interesting work,

I think. UM. But it's there's always you know, one should always be heartened because UM, writing is it's a gift, it's a joy, and it's it's really to me, it's more of a calling. And I think that if you feel that way, you know, a little poverty, frankly, is not gonna hurt you either. I mean something to be said about if you if you can simplify your life and focus your passion on the work you do and Um,

make sure that it's honest. And what I mean by that is that you know that you're connected to it. You know, every song doesn't have to be about your autobiography. You know, like I can't write about a woman. I'm not a I'm not a woman. I can't write about African Americans. I'm not African American. Nell. If you feel connected, just make sure you're connected. Um, that would be my thing. You know. There are a lot of ways to make a living in this business, all of which is great.

I have, I have no I wish no ill upon anyone. But um, if you've got the love for this art form, and it is an art form, then I say, you know, hold onto that passion and uh, you know, just don't don't let that go, you know, because the world needs songwriters and it needs I think a songwriters are kind of like professional dreamers, and we are. I mean, that's

our job. I mean, our job is to go out and write to be Leonard Cohen and right Susanne or hallelujah R. That's that's what we need, you know, um. And not everything has to be a ballot or novella too. We need um, you need you know, we need those rockers too, you know, don't you feel like those songs that really touch people are the ones that come from that true place? Yeah? Absolutely, I mean they and the

and the contrary is true as well. If something seems kind of thrown together like a you know, like a demographic study or whatever, that I just a question whether or not it's going to have much impact, whether we're really going to sing those songs, you know, years from now, or if we're gonna bring them into our lives, whether we'll you know, laugh or cry or get married to them or sing them at funerals or you know, these are these are the songs you want to be a

part of. This is what this is, what it is about. You know, this is because what you're doing is you're creating actual poetry for our time. You know. And it may sound that may sound like wow, you you sure you know you know this is actually it's just do do do doo, data do all. I want to say to you, Yeah, that's true. But I mean you might as well, um, accept the fact that our kids today they grow up and they are um, you know, they may not know Shakespeare, you know, they may not read uh,

classical literature. They may, but they may not. But I promise you this. They're all listening to records and some of the best writers are really probably today are you know rap artists, I think, uh just who are much freer unless you have a Jason Isabel or something like that, and that is their literature. I mean, they may they may get they may read a My angela book. They may pick up you know, um, they may pick up

some some famous literature, some deep literature. But they are constantly uh literally inhaling music and so um, I think it's it's real important that you kind of take it seriously and and accepted as an unbelievably exciting profession. You know, I sat there last night, I just in it with this. I A good friend of all of ours, Andrew Dorff died recently, and you know he was want of really

wonderful song and really unique, really quirky guy. You know. Um, he'd been a published poet, um, a real character, you know and kind of you know, he had his stuff like we all do. But I and I remember, you know, every time I wrote with him, you know I was I was struck by his authenticity and his intensity. And so last night the community and there is a community here. That's what's so beautiful. They gathered and a bunch of us who wrote songs of them. We just spent two

hours playing his songs. Now some of these are you know, big songs, and and then but there were others who came up and played songs. And Levin I had written this song make It Love, which was part of this movie and helped Leave I get his deal. That's my son, and and it's a beautiful song. I mean, I you know,

and so much of it was Andrew. And I remember I was sitting there last night, you know, pretty late for me, and I'm listening to everything, and you can feel the flow of the poet like there are every all the songs were co written, and yet you can feel Andrew was literally in the room, I mean spiritually figured, but his presence was there, and that presence was beautiful, and you know, and that's a real testimony, you know,

when you feel it in a room. And I was looking out, I'm the place was packed and all these faces and the lyrics are delicated, but they're also broken and there you know, his life was it was kind of busted stuff, you know, and it's it's hard to listen to sort of in a way. But then he's always there's always sort of a a weird screwed up

light at the end of the tunnel. I mean, it's just a really interesting cat, you know, And and it's just it's flowing out over the audience and the faces where they were like wide open, like they were a church, like it's coming in. And I'll tell you what if that's not something, you know, if that's not important, I don't you know, I don't know what it is. And if you don't think that's important, then you know, maybe songwriting's not for you. That that could be my final

state that Marcus, you are one in a million. Thank you so much for joining me. I hope you loved hearing from Marcus Hooven. Next week I have Jimmy Harnin joining me. This guy is a record label guru. He is so fantastic. He runs Big Machine Records, which is what my husband, Michael Hobby and a thousand horses are signed to. And then he is e v P, which means executive vice president of all of the labels at Big Machine Label Group, which there are five, so he

is running so much stuff he is so talented. He also had a huge hit called where Are You Now back in the day. He's one of the only record label executives who have ever had a hit on the charts himself, so he has so much insight to share. He's so interesting. We talked about everything, and I cannot wait for you all to hear Jimmy Harna next week. See you next week, and don't forget to subscribe.