GINGER STACHE: Chief Creative Officer to Pastor & Mogul Joyce Meyer

like a odd guru. But I feel like she is like super real about it. Like I feel like maybe that's why people gravitate towards Joyce instead of maybe other religious figures. Like she like tells it to you, Frank, And she isn't scared to like talk about really hard things in like an honest way. She doesn't always sugarcoat stuff. I feel like, do you feel that way? She's the real deal. That's why I love her, you know, That's why she's a friend and someone that I love working

for and with because yeah, she tells it like it is. Um. No one can make you feel a little bit slapped down, but still good about it, like Joyce can't like this is how it is and this is how it can be better, because that's what we're all looking for. Well, and I struggle, I mean, just to be honestly, in my podcast is called Get Real, I struggle a lot. Sometimes it's like hardcore religious facts because sometimes it feels so intense and it feels like exclusive, and it feels

I don't know, like sometimes it's just overwhelming. I feel like you can't quite navigate it or you have to become this perfect person to be accepted into the religious community. And I feel like I feel like a lot of people maybe struggle with that. So what is your take on being involved with a big one of the biggest Christian religious organizations? And I want to talk all about your accomplishments, but I kind of just want to set

the stage for your background. But how what is it like behind the scenes, like being running alongside with Joyce this huge God organization that affects so many people. I mean, if you are in if you were in the religious God community, all you have heard of Joyce Meyer. I mean she is like top of the top. So what

is that like being behind the scenes to all of this. Yeah, Well, my role is to be in charge of all of the media areas, so I'm responsible for television, radio, online, books, publications, um, every place that we get that message out. So of course it is a big organization and there are a lot of wonderful people or wouldn't work. So I'm very very grateful to work with so many talented people. But this is why it works, and I've I've worked in

other organizations and other Christian places as well. But what we're doing boil down to something very simple, and that is to share a message of the love of Christ and to also help people in practical ways. So when you boil it down to all of that, it's not about perfection. No one is going to be that joyce certainly is that. I'm so far from it. So um,

that's not the message. The message really is that no matter what you've been through, no matter who you are, that there's a loving God who is right there with you and has a plan for you and wants to fill your life with joy and wonder So yeah, what is it like. It's so um busy in a good way, But there's a lot going on there, a let of deadlines, a lot of things to keep going. We have daily television show, multiple podcasts, a magazine, a website, all the

social media, so it's really really active. But at the same time, UM, we are out all over the world sharing in practical ways to help people with needs like fresh water and anti human trafficking rescue efforts and feeding programs. So because there are so many things, UM, it's the

passion that fuels us. It's that passion to do what God asks us to do, to love people the way He wants us to UM, instead of that way that many people think falsely about religion, that it is much more a loving relationship, and so letting that be what guides us is really what makes it work. And you're talking about one of the the podcast that she does.

You are one of the hosts on talk It Out podcast US, which is UM Joyce Meyers one of her I don't know where it does everywhere you can find podcasts. It's like one of the many offsprings of the Joyce Meyers Foundation. UM. I was watching your video that you posted about one of your latest ones that you all were talking about, which is rejecting rejection, and I was really like happy to hear this because I struggle so much with why the bad things happen to good people?

And you wrote this book called Chasing Wonder that's all about enjoying the daily wonder of life and like finding

the good in life. But like on that podcast, you are talking about something that I struggle with, which and then I want to tie it into your book because of how we get to where you go, how we get to the theme of your book, what do we do with all the terrible things that are happening in the world, with all of the suffering and the pain, and and you'all talked about that on that podcast, rejecting rejection, and Joyce was talking about like, you know, abuse from

her dad, abandonment from her her mom. And then there was a professional athlete it seemed, who was like who had a big injury with her knees skiing and like it like broke her down to ground zero. And but it's all about how like those moments are there to bring us to God, but they're so awful and they're

so and it's so terrible. And like you you guys traveling all of the world, and you go to all these countries and you posted a picture of like a little girl holding bricks on her head and like walking in the scorching heat and you know, doing this for hours each day to just like help build her house and it's there, and it's like, it's just there's so much happening in the world that feels sad or it feels like people are suffering, and it's just hard to

think that sometimes that that's a part of the plan, and it's hard for me to find. That's why I really want to dive into your book. It's hard for me to sometimes find the wonder and the joy in the world when I know all this stuff is going on. But maybe because you guys are so actively hands on the ground, boots on the ground out there, is that

how you can? Is that how you find the wonder and the joy because you know every day you're waking up and you're like diving into it head first, like helping or like, how do we people with with all the pain and suffering in the world and still chase wonder and still find the joy when you see all the things that are happening. It's so hard, Yeah, it is, And you're exactly right. The the thing about all of this, all of the pain that we go through all the brokenness.

There's no one who escapes life without some real heartbreak and and brokenness. And so it can't be about a fake happiness. It can't be about a superficial everything is great when it's not that, you know. That's why getting real is so very important. And God doesn't want us to fake it either. God wants the real thing, and he knows our heart anyway, so there's no reason to

hide anything from him. And so of course you know, I faced really hard things, big losses in life, and my natural tendency, which I hate to say, it's where we all have different personalities, but um, I tend to right away get angry, but I just get mad. I'm like, God, why why are you not changing this? Where are you

in this situation? And one of the times that, um, it really began to pile up, because the more you see sometimes the more you experience, the more they pile up, the thicker those walls become, the crustier you kind of feel.

And I had been, um, as many of us who travel and see all the outreaches, had been just overwhelmed, trip after trip after trip with really terrible difficult situations, walking in red light districts where women were literally held prisoner and forced to do what they were doing, and just seeing the emptiness in their faces. I held babies that were dying in my arms of malnutrition and starvation,

and um, so so many heartbreaking, terrible things. But whereas sometimes the thing that really struggles is sometimes there isn't the redemption story. Well, that's exactly you're You're exactly right. And one thing you said is that I know it's part of the plan. I don't think it is. I don't think it is part of God's intent. It's it's not what he designed. It's not part of his original plan.

Because you know, people have free choice, and bad things happen, and people do things that God doesn't want them to do. And you know, we we have consequences to all of those awful things that are in our world that impact us. Even when maybe it wasn't our choice, somebody else's choices may really hurt us. So I started asking God. I was so angry, and I'm like, okay, God, hell am I supposed to deal with all this? Where are you

in this? And um, first of all, you just let me be mad because there is no answer there is no answer to some of this stuff. But and that thing, that's the thing too. It's like with the women in the red light district and the babies who are buying malnutrition, I just like, I'm with you. I'm so mad. I'm like, God, this isn't fair. Like women were like held captive and they were put into this against their will, and now

these babies were just born into this life. And it's like, I so overwhelmed, and just I guess it's anger mixed with sadness. Then I just want to give up, you know, yeah, And and the giving up is the part that God really wouldn't let me do. And a little bit of what you said is very much a part of it is because we're not just seeing it. We really are making a difference. We're feeding children and we are seeing

them snatched out of the hands of death. We are rescuing women out of this horrible situation and teaching them how to have a career and support themselves. And so we are seeing those things, but there always is someone else that you can't reach, so there's always more to do. You can't do it all. And so I began to ask this question, God, where are you in this instead of just being angry, show me where you are in this. And I really began to feel um that it's not

what he wanted. But he didn't leave it. He he doesn't want things to turn out the way that they always do in our world, but he doesn't turn his back to it. He he works in people's lives. He's there loving us in our hardest situations. He does bring healing to so many people. I've seen so many amazing things that you just can't explain, as well as those hard things that didn't go the way I thought they

should like I wanted God to do. So there's really no explanation except for the fact that God will show you these little glimpse says of him still in the midst of terrible situations, whether it is someone who had the opportunity to come out and whose life was changed, or a smile on a child's face that makes no sense because they're in an awful situation. But there's still joy there that's coming from the inside. So I can't give up hope. I think that's the biggest thing. Without hope,

it is all over. And I still have that hope because I've seen the things that God can and does do doesn't always do it in my timing or the way I want. But I have to hold onto those little glimpses of hope, even if it's a flower growing in a terrible, dirty place. I see God planting these little seeds of hope, and that's one of the things that keeps me going. And that's why I want to encourage people to chase after God's wonder even in our hardest times. When I was writing this book, I was

going through a really hard time. Um we were dealing with several things in our family, loss, cancer, and I still I knew that God wanted me to be on the lookout for him. And so that's what I want to do, is to encourage people and in the possibilities waking up every day that I may not love everything in this day, but I will look for the possibility of seeing something beautiful, meeting somewhat amazing, doing something extraordinary. If we don't open our heart to that hope, we're

not going to find it. I love that, and I think that is such a great way to live your life. Why do you Why would you tell someone for like, sometimes I'm just gonna tell you my own personal struggle. Sometimes I feel guilty for being too happy when I know things are going on in the world that I

can't say. So it's like and I know, I know we have to hang on to hope, and I know that like that's what we have to like clean to but I'm always like, like I said before, and this is me, just I'm a I'm sort of like just I'm not like a depressed person, but I'm just like over aware of sadness in the world. And so it's like I always am thinking of the ones lost instead

of the ones saved. So like I'm thinking, I'm always thinking about, like what about the ones that we didn't get, that didn't get at that chance, and so what how when we are like living, when we're when we are chasing wonder in our life and enjoying our life, is it? Sometimes I feel guilty for trying to have too much joy and happiness when I know other people are literally like in chains and you know, and like in like

in life that they can't get out of. And it's like, oh, I feel so bad, you know, like I feel like I shouldn't be able to have all this joy when some people have no joy. If that makes sense. Sure, it makes a lot of sense. And I have definitely been there many times. I remember being in Madagascar and we were working with UM this large, large population of

homeless kids. I was sitting on the street talking with family of homeless children and they were telling me what their life was like and how they would watch these two others backs and sleep and shifts because it's so dangerous. And then I went back to my comfortable hotel and that's when the tears just start flowing, you know, That's when I'm just like, why do I have this when they have that? And like you said, it's easy for that to be a guilt feeling. UM certainly not understanding,

but the guilt that you feel doesn't serve anybody. I know. I know, and I tell myself that, like I know anything. And so if if we're doing what we can do, and we are helping where we can help, we know we can't help everyone, but we're doing what we can do, then I honestly believe that if we have joy in our lives, it's not just for us, it's for other people too. So if I can stave off that guilt and allow God's joy to work up in my life, it will spill over into other people's lives, and I

would much rather do that. And you know, I have a choice what I dwell on. I can dwell on that guilt that I felt really strongly, or I can dwell on the gratitude that God not only is allowing me to help people, but he's meeting my needs and be grateful about it and let that overflow onto others. And it's such a delicate balance. And you're right, my heart just breaks for people. It's hard for me because I'm very, very sensitive to the needs around me and

I've seen so much, so much. Yeah, I know how real it is, but I can't live in a place where I'm not able to help anyone because I'm so downtrodden. And that makes so much sense that that is such an amazing point, and I feel like I need to work on that in my mind because like I just like fall into these ruts when really the thing and I think is so great about what you're saying is you've seen it, you feel it, but you choose to find a joy in your own life because God gave

you this life. God put you in this life, and you're doing everything that you can in your power of who you are as a human to bless the world the best way you know how. And that I always try to come back to is it's I can't, Like

you said, you can't save the world. But like we all have like callings, we feel led to do certain things and help in different ways, and we all have different gifts and ways that we feel like we can contribute, and it really is our job to follow those into like go where God is opening the doors and where we feel let it's easy to feel like we're not doing enough. Of course, we're never doing enough. There's so much to do, But we can't compare ourselves to someone else.

You know, We're all in different places in our life. We all have different gifts and talents, and God has different things ahead for all of us, so we we can't play that comparison game. And then one situation that I learned so much about what you're saying is um there was a little girl that I met in Ethiopia, and Ethiopia is one of those places that you see

just the worst of humanity. You see terrible starvation, you see um, sex, trafficking, and horrific ways and so we were helping this little girl and and feeding her and she was doing so well, and so we were going back to see her again and I was so excited that her name was a Baba, to see you Baba again. And on our way there, we heard that she passed away, and I was devastated and heartbroken and like, God, why did you bring her so far and then have this happen?

And so I was just going there hopeless, I really was. And we got there and Baba wore this little purple scarf and the sweetest smile on her face. And I got there and I saw her mother with a little a girl and a little purple scarf on, and I thought, was was the information wrong? Is this a Boba? You know? Is she live? And I was so hopeful. And then I went and I saw her mom and this was

a Boba's baby sister. So once again I had this strong, strong feeling like I can't lose hope, because yeah, we lost her, but there's always someone else who needs us. When one thing doesn't go the way we wanted to, there's always the next person. There's always the next situation in our life where we need to work that hope up again, and God will be there in the midst

of that situation, and hopefully it will go differently. I don't know if it will or not, but that little girl did well, and so I guess it just taught me that, um, it's never over. You know. One thing doesn't turn out the way that you want it to, but there's always the next situation that will need your joy in your hand of God working in their life.

That is so true. And I think another thing that I do that I feel like is something I should not do is I project so much my feelings onto circumstances, and like I will create entire scenarios about sadness that I perceive when sometimes the person living in isn't is most likely proceeding a completely different story than what I'm making up, you know. So I feel like that's another thing that I have to work on instead of just

like feeling all these feelings that I'm making up. Just like, get in there and help where you can, and then you have to hand it over to God. What inspired you to write this book Chasing Wonder? Because writing a book is no small task, and this is such an inspired piece of work that you created. Tell me where you got your inspiration and how you knew that you

needed to write this book. I was having this this time in my life where I really knew that there was something I was supposed to be doing and I didn't know what it was, but I knew I wasn't doing it. Have you ever had that feeling all the time? I feel that like constantly, Yeah, like there's something, there's something I know that I'm supposed to be doing and I don't know what it is. And it just started by um making a list. I was on an airplane. You've got a lot of free time when it airplane.

This was pre pandemic. I was making a list of things that I had been able to experience, these wonderful people I've met, places I'd been, and great experiences. And the reason I started doing that is because I wanted to remember these things. You know, it's like journalinge. I just didn't want to forget the good things that God was doing. And I also wanted to focus on my gratitude instead of all the hard things and the things

that didn't go the way that I wanted. So I started making this list, and as I began to kind of share it with people and just talk about it to my friends and passing um they would they would say things like, Wow, you know, I wish I could do those things, things I wish I could help people. Um, I wish I could do different things. And I felt so strongly that I want to encourage people that they don't have to say I wish because they can and

it won't be my list. It will be their list, which will be so much better for them because it will be tailor made for their passions and their skills that God has put in them their personalities. So it may not be traveling the world, it may be making your neighborhood a better place, it may be investing in your family in a really powerful way, but it will be the things that bring you joy and also bring God's wonder to life in your world. So that was

my my real impetus behind this book. And when I started doing this, that weight kind of lifted that I wasn't doing something I needed to do, and I just realized that, yeah, I really want to get this message out to people. Yes, that is such a great point, Ginger, because I do feel like a lot of the times I feel that heavy weight. It's because I feel like I need to be doing something to help others more

or contributing in a way. But it's like sometimes I don't know the next step or where to plug in, even though there's so many places in organizations that need help. But sometimes feels just like you're lost in the sea of what to do does And I get that feeling like you had a message of hope that you wanted to bring people, because I feel like that is truly your mission is you want to see people having hope and thriving in this world with their circumstances and then

their particular life. I do, and even in the midst of the really hard stuff, because I'm tired of Christians putting on happy faces and not meeting it and not dealing with the hard stuff. And so I know that that's not what we are supposed to do. And so like you were talking about being stuck in that, I don't know what the next step is, but I feel

like there might be something encouraging people in small steps. Okay, you don't have to know where the end is, but there may be small steps along the way that we'll get you closer and closer to what you think that is. And as we take those little steps that kind of open up God's wonder and joy in our life. We

begin to see what He's doing. We begin to see the things that do really um encourage our passion and where we're being used and where we're being successful and happy, and so then we have more trust and more faith than we take the next step. And I think that's really the key is it's not about big life changes, it's about small steps closer and closer to who God

wants us to be. I love that being in the end the industry that you're in, do you ever feel pressure that you have to like stay up high at this like certain level of Godliness? Like what if you're just having a down to day and you just want to be like annoyed with the world and like you're just in a bad mood. Do you feel like you have to stay at a level of just like high faith all the time or do you allow yourself to come down? You know, I do annoyed really well. So

that's one of my superpowers. And so you're so happy and smiley. Oh sometimes, you know, annoyed can be my natural state. But I put people around me who I can be real with, and I think we have to do that. Choose your friends wisely, choose a group of people who can be around you. And my coworkers. UM, you know, we we can be real with each other and we can disagree, but will come back to a place because we love each other. UM, We'll come back to a place where we know how to move forward.

And I think that's really the key. UM. I get annoyed with so many things. I get annoyed with people not moving at the pace I want them to move to. I get annoyed at things not going the way I want them too, when things aren't communicated the way I think they should be, And part of it's always my fault too, so I get annoyed with myself. So yeah, I I don't believe in UM trying to stay up where it's it's not natural. But here is what I

believe in. I believe that there is so much help in those situations that we don't have to stay there. I can feel annoyed, deal with it, and then move on and not live in that annoyance. That's a great point. So you gotta let it come. And I know this is what I have to do. I gotta let it come. I have to talk to somebody about it if that's what I need to do, whether it's for my own good or for their own good, and um, then let's let's move on and agree how to how to deal

with it. But we can't live by our feelings, and so I think, because sometimes it's so hard, Like in this very moment, I'm just gonna tell you, my daughter is one and a half and she's down for her nap, and the dog just started barking so out late and ut my daughter from her nap, like you're off going on outside the doors, and like my head is serious, and I'm like so annoyed at the dog because I'm like, you just ruined an hour of the baby's nap and now the whole day is going to be like off

because you didn't get your sleep. And it's like, okay, move on, let that go. Don't hang on because like the feeling I got was like a real sense of annoyance. But it's like you have to like what do you do? Like what do you have a method like technique that that annoyance is so real? And I've done it both ways.

I have I have had the rest of my day and probably the next day be ruined, buy it, um, And then I've also done it better sometimes where I'm like, Okay, today is not going to go as I expected because they're gonna be a little bit grumpy, a little bit sleepy, and um, I probably will too. And so within that is making that choice that it doesn't have to be perfect for me, and I think for a lot of people.

Is that's a big thing. Is I'm a planner, and um, I like things to go well, but life could be messy. It doesn't have to be perfect, And I need to learn after I uh first complain, I need to learn that the next step is, Okay, how do I shift? How do I pivot with this and make the best of it even though it's not what I was hoping for? And you know what's crazy is in this world that is so full of so many different energies and life

forces and just like interactions going on. How wild that we actually think we can create a plan and it should go according to plan every single day? So right, like I think about all the time, I'm like, why on earth? I mean, And a lot of times things

goot do go according to plan? And I know we need organization in the world, so we're not chaos, but it's just like, it is crazy to think that we can organize all of this energy and just make everything go to plan, and every person's individual little world that they're living in, you know, you're there's just so much happening, and we're also overscheduled and overburdened and overwhelmed. And one of the things that I decided when our daughters were

small was that I really wanted to make myself. I had to make myself cherish some of the moments and create memories that I did not want to lose, because otherwise, one day falls after the next, after the next, after the next, and um, you've just been in this robotic thing of raising kids or going to work or whatever it may be, and before you know it, it's like when you're driving down the road and you get there and you realize, I don't remember how I got here

at all. I don't I don't remember all those stoplights returns. I didn't want my life to be like that. And some days, of course, I did it better than others. But I really believe in making a conscious effort to focus on the little moments that the little hand on your face that just set your aren't on fire, you know, um and say, Okay, God for this moment, even though

the rest of the day has been a little bit crappy. Um, I'm gonna remember this one and this is where I'm going to thank you for it and kind of put

my focus today. And you said that a lot in your book Chasing Wonder, you are trying to help people get out of the just the monotony and the routine and just like honestly, just like you talked about in that car, just like going through your life and not even realizing what you're doing, like you're trying to wait people up to like say, you can have wonder and enjoyment in every day life no matter what's happening, but you have to chase it and you have to see it. Right.

I think it's really easy for us to put so much of our life into everything else that we don't give ourselves the privilege of enjoying where we are and missing so much of the of the joy that we should have in our life because we're investing in important things, you know, career and our children and all those things

are hugely important. Investing in others, but there's a little bit that has to be understanding that if I don't invest in myself, and if if I don't, um take the time to get as close as I can to to all the good things around me, then I'm not going to be what I need to be for anybody else. I'm not gonna be a good mom, I'm not gonna

be good at my job. So I think we have to take the time to invest in ourselves, love ourselves enough to give that kind of margin in our life where we can take some time out to whatever it is. It might be something really short, but just take those little adventures that will make your life better and make sure that your life isn't full of first of all, empty adventures. We all want meaning. We want to do something that really makes a difference, and that is where

real joy and real happiness comes from. So UM, I hate to see people go through life with regret at the end. I don't want anyone to look back and say, yeah, I did these things, but um, I don't feel like it did anything that that was really purposeful. And I told yeah, that's greatly believe that God has something amazing, yes purposeful for each one of us. I agree. I think that we all came here with a divine purpose.

And I think that like every single person has a different pool and calling on their heart and you know it, like you can feel it, because like when you're in your life and you're not walking on down the road that your soul wants you to, you feel resistant, you feel angry, you feel regrets, you're mad, like you know you're in a bad noodle all the time, you have like resentment all that it's just because you're you know that you're supposed to be doing something else, that your

soul you're being, came here to do something else. And I agree with you. I think we all have that calling. And I oh, based on financial situations and life situations, it's sometimes impossible for everyone to make that their primary job. But I do think if everyone could tap into their calling on some level and are pursuing what they feel like their soul came here to do, I I believe that would create so much more happiness within people in

a collective. In general. I agree with you, and I think there are certain things that you can look for in your life to help you do that. So even if you're not in the job that would be your dream job. Okay, let's let's not think about that right now. But what are you passionate about? What are you good at? You know what makes you happy? And make sure that you give yourself some time to do those things and don't always think of them just in the packaged way

that everybody else does. There may be some way, something that is in your future that will come out of those things that you love. And that's that's how life works. We have these things that are important to us because they're meant to be used for our good and for other people's good. So we do feel trapped sometimes, and there are ways to get unstuck, even if your situation

is not what you would want it to be. Okay, so you you started to list a few things, but like, what are what are some ways, like some tangible ways that people can get unstuck if they feel stuck and they want to move towards their passion, Like what what would you suggest? I would begin by asking those questions and making some lists. What are things that you really love?

What makes you happy? Um? What? As you're writing those things down, the easiest thing to do is to start looking for those things, because the more you look for things that you really love. The more you'll see because you're just paying attention, and that will bring a lot more of that happiness and that joy into your life. But the next step is even further than it's okay, what can I do with this passion that I have? You know, do you are you're really good at um

dealing with kids? Or are you really good at organization? Or are you a great painter but you don't have time for it because of all these other things in your life? Well, what can you say no to? We have to say no more often that great so that we have some margin in our life to spend on these things, these talents that God has given us, whether it's music, whether it's art, whether it's just helping someone else organize their closet. If you love it and you do it, well find a way to get out there

and do it. So those are a few things. Um. You know, there will be different phases in your life that you can't do as much as other phases. Also, when my kids were a little I couldn't do everything I wanted to do, so I started by doing what I what I could and and loving it. But you know, now my husband and I are in a phase where we have a little bit more leeway, a little bit but more time to do those things. So remember that there are seasons that are always changing, and keep those

passions stirred up and alive. But you never know what the future will bring, so don't lose hope for what can come to. Oh. I love that, keep those passions stirred up and alive because just because you're in a season right now where you don't have much, like you said, margin of time outside of what you have to get done, figure out what you can say no to to keep that passion stirred up and alive. I love that until the season comes when you can give it more attention.

But you've got to keep the energy going because you've got to keep it moving. You gotta keep it. You have to keep it alive so it can keep gaining momentum within your life and bringing you opportunities. And then eventually you get to a point when you're ready to have this be more of your focus. Exactly, you got to keep that stirred up and you have to have the opportunity to develop those those skills that are in

your life. And it's you know, it doesn't always come when you want it to, are exactly in the way that you wanted to. But um, you're not on your own. I think that's huge is I'm not trying to do everything by myself. I have hope and I have trust that God is kind of walking with me through all of it, and that in his timing he helps bring those things to life as well, so that that makes a big difference. And in my book, I end each

chapter with a step by step. It's just little encouragements to help you so you're not feeling like I can't do this big thing, so there's nothing I can do. I mean, like one of the examples just to add some spice to your life is buy a different cereal. Like how simple and insignificant is that. But sometimes I just need something new. I just need to try something different. So whatever it may be, there are little steps that can help you along the way. And that's so true.

You get stuck in a rut and instead of just like cutting your hair, dying a pink, like moving move into you know, another country and trying to like start over, like just just start change your cereal, change something small. You don't have to throw the whole baby I want the bash bath war. You can just slow we start trying to spice it up. That's great advice. And sometimes you realize you don't even need a big change, you

just needed something to be shook. Yes, And how many times do we make big changes that we regret, Like oh my god, yes, yeah, So don't cut your hair when you're mad at your spouse, you know, don't. I've done that and I've died it now. It was a big regreat me too. We've all been there. So what is it like? What have you learned walking side by side with Joyce Meyer, who was one of the most influential women and like we were talked about in in the spiritual world. What is it like being right by

her side? What have you learned? What are some of the biggest takeaways? Oh? Many, many things. Um. One of the one of the greatest things I think is that I have seen her be real and be who she is and not put on fake christian Um. Everything's great. And so I've also seen the fact that doesn't matter. Like, for instance, we could be in front of a huge crowd. I mean, we've been in front of five thousand people and she's the same there as she is in a in a tiny, tiny village out in Papua New Guinea

where she's talking to thirty people. You know, give your all to everything that you do, and I've learned so much about that. But one of the most important things I've learned for myself is in walking with her now over eighteen years, is that I am not meant to be what she is, and that we cannot be what I am exactly. We complement each other, and I, as so many people have, you know, would go through a phase where you compare and you're saying, I'm not accomplishing enough.

I should be more like Joyce. I should. I know I'm not to do what she's doing, but there's a reason that I'm doing what I'm doing. And so I've really learned that by being um walking this journey with her, and I think it's one of the greatest lessons I've learned is I will not be happy if I'm comparing myself because there's no comparison to Joyce. Well, and that's

but there's no comparison to you. And I think that that is the lesson that it's the hardest for so many of us to learn, even when we know all have all the tools, and we know know how it really is supposed to be and how we all are uniquely divinely made. All that you still get in the middle of life and you can't help it there. But it also I feel like that is the biggest moment of like self self revelation, clarity, maybe like coming to

terms with your own spiritual self. On on the truest level, is when you know that you have identified what you are good at, you have found worth in your life. You know that like whatever, the life you've created for

yourself is the one that you're supposed to live. But yet you can still be in the midst of all the amazing other people doing great things and you still know that you are doing your life and you're so content doing that and not feeling, like you said, learning that you don't have to try to do this because that person does this or that. And i feel like I've struggled with that so much, but I've coming into that. I'm I'm I'm still in that season where I'm like

owning myself. But it's like that is that's a moment of peace and freedom. It is it's so free and to realize and remember and hold on too, because sometimes we can know it, but that's not the same as holding onto it and and counting on it and clinging to it for dear life, that there is enough success and joy for everyone. I don't need someone else's success and I don't need their joy because there is enough

of my own and it's bally made for me. And that God has such a love for me and who I am that he creates did me just like this, and all my faults and all my failures, that he wanted to use those things for good things for me,

and so holding onto that with all my might. And also I think too, it's like we're all a piece of this giant puzzle, and you enjoys aligned amidst them, your whole team, Like I'm sure there are so many people involved in this team to make the joys in surprise, like the global sensation that she is, she is the face of it, like she was given the gift to speak these words out loud. She has she has that it's like who she is, the way she delivers the story she wants to tell, the way she perceives life

and God and all of it. Like it's like her gift to like translate that and to have people hear it. But your gift is to help. I mean I don't of course I'm not like saying this is your gift. I don't know you that well. You know you're gift more than me, But it seems like you are someone who can like bring in all of your gifts and talents. You can help organize and you can help like build her gift and what can change people with her words on a on a regular basis on this Latin this

platform that she speaks. You can help prepare her for that so it can be heard, and so you are helping. It's all a part of like the bigger picture, and every different person has to come together. So yes, someone is the face per saying more than someone else, but it is the whole village that makes it happen, and every single person has to have their gift for the

village to work in the message to be heard. Absolutely, And sometimes we look at our own gifts and we think they're not good enough compared to somebody else's or that um, we wish it was what somebody else had, and that's when our gifts are really really stifled. Like I I have this um creative passion that I love, and if I said instead, no, I'm gonna go do

this other thing, I wouldn't do it well. Like if I said, Okay, no instead, I'm gonna go have a music career that is not right for me, it would be a horrific failure. And so yeah, really being able to concentrate on what sparks our energy and where we think God is leading us and what He's helping us to do, so that we're not just wanting to be

or do what somebody else is. And it does. You're right, it takes all of us because without so many different talents, do you think that a website or a television show or anything else can ever come together? I think every one of us and everyone has their own creative genius, but they give to it. And a lot of people are more behind the scenes and you might not even know that they're there, but they are integral pieces of

this picture. And I think that everyone just needs to know that success, like you said, there's enough success and enjoy for everyone, and it comes in different in different varieties, Like success and joy for you is going to look different than success and enjoy for me, it's gonna look different than success and enjoy for joy. It is going

to look different for everyone, but it is yours. So whatever comes your way based on your talents being given to the world, and that is what has meant for you, and you've got to bask in it. And instead of like missing the joy, you have to know that, like this is from the fruits of your labor and the fruits of your passion, and however it comes to you,

you have to like see it and love it. And it's like, instead of what you're saying, wishing it was something else, because what we're projecting on what something else might even be. What if what we have is the greatest feeling you could ever have, but we're not even noticing it because we think it should be something different when we say we're holding joy and passion and success and love in our hands, but we're too blind and by others to even notice it. Yeah, you're so right,

And that that's why I talk about chasing wonder. I love it. I think that we really have to be willing to get up and chase after um make a effort and not just sit back and wait for things to fall into our laps, and so many people are are working really hard, they're really really busy. It's not that they're lazy, but are they giving themselves the opportunity to chase after what they really need in their life, to fulfill their calling, to fulfill what will give them

purpose and passion and what God has for them. So it's not just about running, it's about running towards the right things and giving yourself that opportunity to say, you know, even if I don't know what it is, I have hope that there's something good for me ahead and so I'm going to start looking for it. I'm gonna start chasing after it. And that that is a wonderful place to start. I love that. And you talked about we talked about like finding a career that you love and

like writing things down. Would you say that sort of goes hand in hand with like finding your calling. Because a lot of people hear this word being thrown around calling, Oh God called me, this is a calling on my heart. I heard this, This is a calling. People are like, what is a calling? You know? What does that mean? What does that mean? So can you explain what a

calling means? And would you say that you kind of discover the calling in the same way that you discover what you love or how would someone identify their calling? When when I think of God's calling on our life, the important thing to me is that I can't expect to figure God out right, So I want to hear his voice. I want him to send me an email that says, Hi, gender, this is what my calling is for you in your life, and you should do and I'll be man. If God would just into a step

by step email when nothing, I would love that. Give me some directions and I will run with it. But it it doesn't work that way all the time. And what I have found through my career, so you know, started in in news and then it went to documentary producing and five years in like TV production, right, yeah, So I co hosted a talk show for eighteen years, and then it came to Joycepire Ministries and was doing

documentary work before that and so many different things. And so what I have learned is first of all, that God's calling is for different things at different phases in our life. And so you can't feel bad if you think you're missing it right now, because God loves us so much that if our motives. Our desire is to honor him and to really find what he wants us to do. He will use us where we are, so it's not like I have to be over here. This is where God wanted me, and so I'm I'm missing it.

We don't miss God that way. He loves us so much that he nudges us all along the path and keeps us where he can use us. Now, there are times that we make some crazy right turns. I know that I've done some things that are like WHOA and I need I need to come back. And but what I have found is even in those things, the things that I was thinking, What does what does this job that I'm doing right now have to do with anything? You know, I don't feel a passion for it. I'm

not sure what it what it's serving. There will come a time later down the road where I needed what I learned there that it really makes a difference. So nothing is wasted in your life. I get that. So you're calling is not so specific that you have to be afraid to miss it. If if your heart is seeking after that, God is a gentleman and kind of

helps us find it. So you're you're calling may have a wide range that you can fit within, and you can find many things that bring you purpose and fulfillment um and not just an empty accomplishment and not temporary happiness. Joy is so much different than happiness. You can have joy when uh, you're not real happy today, you're not thrilled about everything that's happening. But I still know I'm heading in the right direction and I have a God who loves me. That that's where joy is so different

than something temporary. So I just don't ever want to be um making people feel like, oh, God has this one calling for you, and if you miss it, then it's over. You know, it's all done for you. That that is not how this works. Seek after God and he promises that he will be there to help you find him. That's a really great way of explaining it, because you have like a general idea of like what you feel drawn to do, but it could like manifest in so many different ways, so many different ways that

we can't even imagine and we can't prepare for. So just keep walking towards it and trying to seek God and just sort of like relinquished control. Honestly, that's the hard thing though, isn't it hard? Oh, it's so hard. I hate that. I hate it. I hate it. I hate letting go of control. Oh my god, but you're so right. You're so right, And there are those times

where it's so scary. Fear is a big thing here, right, If if you are really chasing after wonder, you've you've got to be able to overcome some of your fears, or at least do it afraid, go ahead and do love that. Oh, because there are so many things letting go of control, um, having things not go right, the fear of rejection. Uh that there's so many big things

that stop us. But if we can push through those and and give it just a little, a little, try a small step, and see what happens with it, then it starts to push the door open for other things to happen and it and it really helps us to have faith that I can let go of control because I'm in good hands. I love that. So I just want to throw a few words out at you, and you just tell me what you think, like thought, Okay. Love is Love is so much bigger than we can

ever understand. Love is what makes life worth living, and it's what fills our lives with purpose and joy. It's not a feeling, it's a decision. The point of life is mm hm. The point of life is growing closer and closer to the God who created you, learning more about him and seeing more of his wonder in the world, and knowing that it's not a temporary, finite set of years, that our life is so far beyond what we can understand or imagine in our own finite understanding. Humanity needs

m Humanity needs more real love. Humanity needs to understand that, in the midst of heartache and disappointment, that there is one love that is so unconditional and so big that it overshadows everything else. I love it. So I always wrap up with one question, which is leave your light, And basically it is just what do you want people

to know? Super open, inded. I want people to know that there is so much more than what they are seeing in this very moment, that there is so much more love, and so much more joy, and so much

more potential for you. I really want people to know that because I think we close off are our lives and our hopes and our potential because we don't see the wonder of God around us and I want I want people to know more than anything that their adventures are so much bigger than they ever could have imagined, and so much more meaningful than they ever could have imagined. But there are steps that they have to take, and there they need to work up their courage. They can

be brave with God's help. But it's all things that they can do. It's possible, Okay. And you break this down in your book, Chasing Wonders, so everybody go get your copy. It is fresh off the grill and just just coming out into the world, so hot off the press. Congratulations on your book. Thank you so much for this interview. Gender. It really was amazing to have such a candid conversation with you, diving into something deep questions I've had about

God and spirituality. And thank you for being so real and honest us. I really really appreciate your honesty and just your vulnerability, Caroline. I've loved it. I I love this opportunity to dig deep and get real and just talk about the hard stuff you gotta do it. Thank you so much. Well, thank you for joining me and see you see you around the world all these days, I hope so yes. Okay, Bye, Gender, bye,