ALYSA VANDERHEYM: Getting Real About Overcoming Creative Ruts, Co-Writing & Producing Kelsea Ballerini’s Rolling Up the Welcome Mat + More

Carl n She's a queen and talking song She's getting not afraid to favorite episode, so just let it flow. No one can do we quiet, caryll Lyne, it is sounding Caroline.

All Right. I am so excited to be on this episode of Get Real podcast with Alisa Vanderheim. Hello, how's it going.

I'm so happy to be here.

I'm so happy you're here. You're so cool.

Thank you.

I mean, and you're a part of one of the coolest things that I feel like went on in country music?

Was it last year? Last year was the year of you and Kelsey? Sorry? Yeah, yeah, Alisa Vanderheim. Do people call you Alyssa all the time? So what a.

Year you've had. You're a huge songwriter in town. Like there's a list of people you've written for. You've written for like Florida, Georgia, Line, Blake Shelton, Little Big Town Lady A, Luke Colmes, Coldbeer called My Name?

Who did you do that.

One with h Jameson Rogers?

Yeah, I mean you've also had like another big cut. Who was that big pop song that you had one Republic?

And then here comes our girl Kelsey Ballerina, which I feel like this is like, to me, as an outsider looking in, I feel like you guys are like musical soulmates.

I think we are, you know, And I've seen.

That happen with other artists.

It's like when Carrie Underwood found her Hillary Lindsay, you know, and then they like wrote all those songs and it's like, Oh, there's Carrie Underwood.

She's found her partner in her voice, and it's like whoa.

And it's like, I'm speaking from my perspective, it's like you and Kelsey like y'all's combination has created dis maagic because you had eight songs on her Subject to Change album, So that's like most of the album.

And how did y'all do rolling up the welcome Matt for Good? I mean, where did that come from? I know she was in the middle of a divorce, but like, how did y'all get this idea to secretly go to the studio and make this album?

So she had this like brainchild. I think when she knew that it was over for her, she was like, we have to write about it. So she was like she warned me. She was like, we're gonna make a divorce album. And I was like, Okay, I'm along for the ride, like tell me what to do, coach, put me in Captain, And so we just started writing for it, and she kind of had like all the titles that

And then we're like in.

The middle of the night, sneaking into the.

Studio we would do Yeah, was she not.

Married when she was making this album?

Was it?

Because?

I mean it was probably like I'm the DL.

I mean no, I would what if you were trying to remember? No?

Because when okay, I have I now have witnessed some divorces happening in friendships, and it's like when especially a woman is done being married, she's done.

She's done.

Before the divorce happens, like there's a moment where it's like this has been over.

It's been over for a while.

Yeah, and if for the other party not to recognize that, yeah, come on.

Are you blind, cited or just blind? What was the song that didn't make the album?

What was that?

It was called better Off and the hook was like it was like a better ring. Some things are better off.

It's cool.

It just didn't fit.

No, I would say, I mean, I think she just wanted it so specific.

What was the full spectrum that it's like from start to finish kind of.

Yeah, she just had this in her brain the whole time, and I was just catching on as she was like, I was just like cool, that's dope. Like she knew the whole time, and I was just like all right, like trying to keep up.

You know, were you all writing the songs in the studio.

Yeah, there's let's see.

Blindsided happened because I just had made a track for her in mind, not not even for the EP, just like this is a cool track whatever. And then so we wrote that was I want to say that was the first song we wrote. I can't remember actually, but that was one of the first ones. And then that's like spurred a lot of the other ones, and like and half of the record she wrote by herself. So we just like I just put music to it.

Okay.

When she said we're going to make a divorce album, which A, that's so ballsy, you know, that's so scary. It is, that's so vulnerable, that's so exposing.

It is, and it could go bad, real bad, Like it could go bad.

How I mean, it could go she's exposing herself. But then also there's this other person that was in the marriage that is getting exposed to you know, like how did that play out?

Yeah?

Yeah, I mean, and then you're talking about it, like even for you, it's like hard to talk about it because someone else is a divorce I know. But yeah, we all are so interested and we're so happy to hear the healing process. It's just so much.

It's crazy.

It's so much vulnerability.

It is so much vulnerability for both parties. Yeah. Yeah, like someone else telling a story that you can't really control how they sell it and the other way around. Yeah, he had put out Morgan had put out this song called over for You, and so that spread kel seeming like oh shit, I need to like say my side.

Yeah, and he.

Put out like movies too, yeah, videos or something. Yeah. I know. It's so crazy. It's so crazy.

Like I'm in this phase of life where it's like I'm married, have a kid, I have friends who are married have kids, and like divorces are starting to happen.

Divorce is so common, it's crazy.

It's so weird, though, when you see it, when you're living it, when you're first hand to it, because it's like you always hear about it, and then you hear about you know, kids growing up, divorced family. Oh and like even one of the songs she talks about, how is it penthouse or whatever, she's like, you know, you're just gonna say, I'm like my parents, you know, and like then I'm just giving up too soon.

And it's just like all these things.

But it's like, to divorce is hard enough, but then to be on a platform like her singing it out loud for everyone to weigh in.

You're right, it could have just gone so many ways.

It could have really backfired.

Yeah, but she just was so ready.

She's already and she's such a good writer. Yeah, I mean, she's such a she's one of the greatest songwriters in this town artist or not, like just point blank and so yeah, it was it was just like a treat, honestly to like watch her, you know, dive.

To the bottom of her soul. Yeah, and just like.

That's very artistry.

That's so that's really true artistry, and that's a rare thing in this town honestly, to.

Just share like that absolutely with no boundaries.

Yeah, no boundaries and have it actually work?

And I think don't you think that's probably why it did work?

Yeah, honestly, Yeah, and like that those raw, like intimate details that like you would never know, you know, people like you love that shit, I know.

And then y'all came back and added a song, the Healing version.

Yep, the Yeah, what was that interlude?

Was interlude? Because that was people were like dying for that to be a full song.

It was just like a shorty little.

So what was interlude? Originally?

It was just it was like shorter, It was like maybe thirty or forty seconds long. It was just kind of like a little interlude type thing, like kind of more.

Like drake vibes. And then people like loved it and so we just like kind of expounded on it.

And then made like the whole marriage was like an interlude. Yeah, right, is that kind of like the especially name of it?

Yeah, she was.

There's a line that's like forever it's just the interload or something like that.

I'm like, that's crazy.

Oh okay, So tell me about you, Like, how did you get to Nashville? How did you become a songwriter? Did you originally want to be an artist?

Like? Where are you from?

Tell me?

Tell me the sax story.

So originally from California, Northern California area.

Okay, yeah, okay if you went from the Bay Area like or like you love the Bay Area?

I love the Bay but we're rare. We don't leave. Why'd you leave from follow my dreams? Baby?

Because you're gonna be music. Did you know you're a songwriter? Yeah?

I always wanted to be a songwriter. Actually, did you up too music?

Yeah?

I mean I would like write songs on tupperware and shit.

You know, Hey, what's your family like?

Chiropractors?

I love chiropractors. My grandfather's a chiropractor. I can't live without chiropractical treatment. I say it's a blessing and a curse because once you start, you can't stop.

Yeah, I haven't been going. I needed to probably find someone. Do you have a recommendation A great Yeah?

The spot I'll just I'll give you a shout. It's called Exodus in print Wood. They're amazed. And also the spine Shop in East Nashville's amazing.

Oh okay, I live by there.

The spine shop, it's in a little shopping center. Yeah, it's great. Okay, doctor Grande. What's up, doctor Grande?

Yeah? Okay, but once you how are you.

Living without chiropractor treatment? Because like I can't go more than a month. Really, my neck walks up.

I mean I need it. Probably I'm just like sitting like a shrimp.

Did you get adjustments all the time growing up? Like weekly?

Daily? Probably? Like weekly?

Okay, what's a like having a chiropractor?

Yeah, they like met in chiropractic college and stuff.

Yeah, and then they just started a clinic.

Yeah. Well so they're a Canadian.

They they met in Canada, and then my mom was like selling her practice and then my dad was like interested in buying it. This was like early days, like so cup started out, but he didn't actually want to buy it. He was just like flirting with her and like wanted to Like that's a big flirt, Yeah, big flirt.

Like leading her on, like about to buy your practice, come on.

Yeah.

And then so she was like I'm out here. I'm like moving to the West Coast from Canada. Yeah, she like wanted to move to organ and so my dad just like followed her.

Good choice. Organ Why.

I think she was just like nature and like it wasn't as cold.

Your parents are nature people. Yeah, well they're obviously very holistic to chariapactic.

They are.

So did you grow up with the holistic background? Oh?

Yeah, organic food?

It was it was nice looking back, but like I like didn't get like that much junk food.

I'm like, are you so pure and healthy? Are you still organic?

Yeah?

You do? Do you feel great?

I mean, I don't want love the idea of eating pesticides, but I know.

But how do you avoid them? Like? Where do you show?

You know? I mean, I mean I just go to like turnip Trucker, Whole Foods or something. But I mean if you go out to eat.

You're kind of screwed. You're eating organic. I go out to eat all the time. So I'm like, how organic am I?

You know?

I know, but at least you know how?

Yeah? Do I do it? I do it sometimes?

Stuff? Do you cook a lot?

Yeah? But I have like my go tos. I don't really like adventure.

Yeah, because it's hard to do much work. It's too much work. Man.

It is not about to like suck up some short ribs, you know, right? Do eat?

You eat meat?

Yeah?

I actually went for like a two week stint where I didn't eat meat in like January.

How was it?

It was interesting?

Why'd you do that?

Just because I was like watching all these documentaries and stuff.

Did you sad?

Yeah? And it's just like.

Cows are like the biggest contributor to global warming, Yeah, which is crazy, more than like the entire transportation transportation sector and stuff.

I'm like, that's crazy.

Yeah, I know, what do we do about these big problems?

The big problems?

I get hooked?

Like I went vegetarian for a year, but then I end up getting like twenty pounds is all I did was eat white bread and like terrible processed food because I was not a good vegetarian.

Did you go vegetarian for the animals? Yeah?

Because I just got overwhelmed with the problems of the world. How do you navigate these big problems of the world.

I know it's it's tough. Yeah, there's a lot of problems.

Do Yeah, I know it's overwhelming.

It's not good.

Well, I guess you can write about them.

Yeah.

So you grew up super organic, super aligned with your body or your parents still together?

They are okay? Siblings, Yeah, I have a sister she's five years younger than.

Me, And how was that? Y'all close?

We're close now, Okay. Growing up, I was definitely not the best towards her. She was just like, I mean, it was like an awkward age difference, you know, oh five, Yeah, it's like you're not close enough to be friends, and then it's too far to be like, you're so cute, you know.

Okay, so it.

Was like a little bit of a I was probably like a little mean to her.

But we've we've mended it.

Okay.

That's good.

You learned so much from your siblings, you know, like good, bad, ugly, all of it.

It teaches you so many things.

Yeah, I love her so much.

She's going to college in Columbia right now, or not Columbia, like the country, New York.

Okay, she's going to the college Columbia. Yeah, she's brilliant. That's a really hard school to get into.

She's like doing some like climate change shit.

You're to stay in the world. You're writing music, saving the world and opening up people's hearts.

And she's just gonna get in there and like fix the climate warm global warming.

I mean, thank you, guys. Vanderheims Vanderheims. What would we do without y'all seriously holding it down? I mean you're just holding down for all of us. Thank you for that. Okay, So you are in.

This beautiful Bay area of California with super organic, awesome parents and living the life on the beach literally like life is a dreak.

You're like, nope, I got to go.

Yeah.

I was like, I want to be a songwriter.

So you always grew up kind of playing music, loving music.

And for some reason, I just always like I didn't want to be an artist. I didn't want to be like a musician. I didn't like I wanted to be a songwriter, which is so like sniper of a direction to have.

That you even knew that you could do that for a job.

Yeah, yeah, I would like study like other writers like Kerdia Guardi and Max Martin and like Luke Laired and like a bunch of people that I didn't know that I would ever even get to write with one day?

Have you wrote?

How is that?

Not? I mean not Max Martin, but awesome.

He's coming, that will be happening next, that's coming next, coming next to me? You or on a Grammy Award winning Album for the Year. So I mean just saying Grammy losing, Grammy losing but still nominated Grammy Award nominated Album of the Year.

That's huge, especially for like the secret project.

That you'll we had no idea and I'm so glad we didn't know because we would have had in our heads.

Like I'm glad that we didn't know at all.

Yeah.

Okay, So going back to like studying songwriters, that's so cool that even knew you could be a songwriter. Did What was it like when you got to meet them and write with them? Were you nervous or were you ready?

It was I was definitely a little nervous, Like holy shit, yeah, like a little starstruck.

How do you get the right? Started with Kara do you guardy? Because she was like an American idol.

She was she was such a fan. I know she's famous. Yeah, I was just like she was so cool. But we actually didn't end up getting a song.

Ironically crazy, like you could be so talented and it's like that just goes to show it doesn't matter necessarily, like the song just has to come right. Is that how you feel about song? Any for sure?

It could be any combination of people. Hit writers are not hit writers. You could still write something amazing.

Yeah. Yeah, songs are their own thing. Yeah, there their own living creature.

They really are, and you just have to channel them. It's weird.

Do you channel songs often?

Or are there times when you don't get something and you know you're not getting something but it's actually turned out to be something?

Or like what is your process? Like do you know when you're on it?

Yeah, I would say usually, like and if I'm not on it, I'll like, I know it's not gonna happen.

You call it a day. Usually finish or will we finish?

Usually we'll finish, but I don't know. Usually you know, kind of in the middle, like yeah, but.

I don't know. The more the more you swing the bat, the more you get shit.

You know.

Did that used to bum you out? Like when you wouldn't get a song and like be like.

Oh, for sure.

Actually, last year ironically was one of the worst creative years of my life.

Really.

I know that this project came out last year and like everyone was like excited about it, but like in real time it wasn't. I wasn't like writing good songs at.

All already, Why I don't know it was going on with you.

Last year. I had a lot of anxiety for some reason because.

You shared so much in this album with Kelsey.

I don't know if it was like subconsciously that, but because I wasn't the artist that was like putting myself out there.

So but you were in a way involved.

Yeah, Becau, it's just you and her the whole thing, right, Yeah, yeah, wrote everything and co produced it.

Yeah, but yeah, it was just I'd never experienced that much anxiety before, so it was just weird. I wasn't like I was very self doubting. Really yeah, I wasn't like excited to write songs that much.

It was weird. It was weird year, Very glad it's over.

What did you How did you navigate all that anxiety? Like had you already written the Kelsey album when you had this anxiety? Did it happen after the Healthy album?

It must be because you, honestly it started when it came out.

When the album came out, you were filled with anxiety because it was such a vulnerable album.

Now that you're talking about it, yeah, I think maybe because a lot of people in town like weren't about it really.

Yeah, like when it first hit what it was.

Just like it was people were kind of afraid to support it in a way.

I get that. I totally can see that.

Because in my own people that I'm close to.

Because they're like, she's divorcing her husband, this isn't right.

Right, or just like we don't want to like align with one side or the other. And like people that were like close to me like did that. And I respect that, but that like definitely like gave me some anxiety of like am I doing?

Am I the.

First thing that I've ever produced, I'm like getting backlash for in a way, like is am I doing the right thing?

Like? Is this? You know what I mean?

And it's because too also, maybe people can villainize someone, which I feel though, like and I feel like I saw Kelsey do an interview about this or something, or it's like maybe if she even said I'm entering my villain error or something.

I don't know if she said that.

I'm not quoting, but it's like for the first time, someone like Kelsey, and I'm sure someone like you who's just been a songwriter, you know, assisting people write these great songs, never really like stacking a ground in a huge like movement in like expressing someone's deepest, darkest painful life.

Yea divorce.

You know, it's like airing all that, like you're the partner for that, You've always just assisted in these other songs that really don't come back to you, and then the other ways not it's not risky, it's not risky. This is risky business. But I feel though, like and I feel like I'm actually entering this error a little bit in my own life where I have forever wanted

Somehow?

But it's like, there comes a point in time where you make decisions to be open and creatively open and express yourself, and it's like people may not like it, and they.

May judge you, and part of that is actually liberating. Though when you've.

Gone so far into that that it's like, well, I guess I don't have.

To worry about everyone liking me anymore.

Thank god.

Was that kind of a relief.

But also in actually had this was very similar to your stories. She's always been like a people played here.

I feel that in her music too in the past, even the way she looked.

She's so beautiful and blonde and bubbly and sparkly, and you know, and then all of a sudden, she's like hitting us with some depth and some pain and like I'm going to bury.

I'll be there with you to bury the body.

I know that was from the past album or whatever, But like, yeah, it's a lot.

There's a lot, but it's it's awesome to watch.

So this is your first album to produce, well for.

Like an entire project.

Yeah, and everybody's got an opinion and they're scared of it.

They're scared.

Yeah people, I mean, I think people like the music. But then yeah, yeah, there's just a lot of different shades.

That's probably why this one means ultimately maybe means so much to you and a Kelsey tell me if I'm wrong, because the fans took this one. Yeah, it wasn't like the industry was making this happen. Sure, it's like the fans made this happen, right, true.

Yeah, I mean none of those songs are on the radio, right, not a single one.

None of these songs have been on the radio.

But this album's blown up and was nominated for Album of the Year as well because of the fans. Yeah, so what do you learn from what do you take away from all that? Because, let mean, you got the anxiety, you.

Know, yeah, because it's anxiety. Got the anxiety.

Yeah, but what do you take away from this, like doing a deeply personal album, not trying to please anybody, but get the art out correctly.

I think. I mean that's I want to do more of it really.

Yeah, so now you're like, okay, got.

To double down.

Yeah, got through the anxious part. And now it's like, I mean, what's the point if you're not doing that? I mean, obviously you always want to write something that everyone would like and like feels good and it's just like whatever. But like that is art, That is music, and we forget about it a lot when we're like forced into this. We're not forced. We willingly are a part.

Of this whenever the game. There's a game to play, of.

Course, and everyone wants to make money. Everyone wants to song on the radio, which is fair. Yeah, you know, yeah, how to eat.

So when you go rogue, it's a little scary.

Yeah, but I mean I think it's it was rare, so I think people that's why it was shocking. It's because like, oh, like I haven't heard that, and I haven't heard that before bold.

Yeah, yeah, it's so rare, and honestly, it sets you up as this producer who's like someone who will go there, which is so cool because yes, you can play the game.

You've had all these cuts which I want to dive into some of these deep these songs that you have because you have so many hit songs that are awesome. But like, you have all these hit songs. But it's like, also, you're gonna go Yeah, that's cool.

I love I love that. I love that. I mean that's yeah.

Yeah, you're a female, a female producer who will go deep into the world.

You know, like how many female producers are out there?

I mean, are you it?

No?

But are you're the only ones? Small? The ratio convertive dudes is like it's crazy, yeah.

But I mean it is cool that to think of other women like seeing this and being like, oh, I can do that, you know.

Captain Morgan has a question.

I have a question that just came up listening to you speak at least about it being more rare to be a female producer. What advice would you give to maybe some Bellmont students or just girls out there listening to this episode right now on how to get their start.

I would say, just pretend like you're no different and just keep your head down and do it, because that's what I did.

I just didn't.

I mean at Belmont, I was just kind of like I didn't really I wouldn't recommend this to people, but like I didn't really like make friends or like try to do the social thing. I was just like very I just moved to Nashville. I have to like get to it and I have to get better like whatever. It was very like laser focused. But yeah, I would say make relationships and be a good energy. I think your energy is really important, more important than talent because

Yeah, but technically, what is the first step, thinking logical steps someone should take to get their start.

Learn your craft, learn study.

If you're trying to be a producer, like learn your daw if it's logic, pro tools, whatever you feel more comfortable in, and be self sufficient, like if you want, like make your own demos, you know, kind of learn how to make your own vocals.

I kind of just be a badass in your.

Own right, Yeah, I just kind of don't be dependent on anyone else. Go to YouTube. Learn Like you can learn every everything on YouTube.

So like learn everything. Learn if you want.

Yeah, if you want to be the if you want to be the best, like learn it. Just learn how to be self sufficient.

Self sufficiency is cool because then you don't have to depend on a producer to be like I need this, I need this mix like no one's sending it to me, or like I need my vocals to sound a certain way and they're not doing it.

If you figure it out, you can you have all the control.

And then also you can the song in your head you can actually get out instead of having to try to explain to someone I want to sound like this and like this, and like.

You use examples. It's like you actually hear the song.

In your head and you have all the capability to get it into a song form that has to be very free liberty.

Yeah, and you don't have to be like a master product production wizard. Like so many songs that are amazing and that are hitting are just like guitar vocal kind of things, Like it's more sparse. I think more sparse is really popular right now anyways.

But the advice you're giving right now, I feel like, is the advice I give people on my side of things. It's really good to be a Swiss army knife if you can and just put that effort in. Like you said, you can learn so much really about anything these days on YouTube, TikTok all the places, and if you come in with that skill set to any industry absolutely.

I mean that's kind of why I started producing, because I was always a songwriter. And then I graduated from Belmont and I was like, Okay, I really want a pub deal. I was working at this restaurant called Marche.

I love Marchay so good.

It is Nashville. It's gone though, right gone. Yeah, they're great.

Crapes, so good. Oh my god, Like nobody.

Has crape, don't they didn't they have the crapes?

The place ruled it did. I was the barista there for like the whole time I was at Belmont.

But so cool. You see, You're just cool. You're just one of those cool people. Of course you were like the barista Marshe.

Well that's a cool job.

Yeah, that is cool. It's like the cool restaurant and like you're making all these.

Cool copy crazy yeah yeah.

But yeah, that was my motivation to get out of the restaurant industry and like actually get a pub deal.

So that's why I learned production.

Okay, because you're like, yes, it's cool being at Marche and being ASA, but like this is why I'm here.

Yeah, And I knew I wasn't an artist. I wasn't like a comfortable with my singing. So I just wanted to figure out how to get myself an edge up to get a you know ya signed songwriter.

How'd you get a publishing though?

So I started just learning logic.

I kind of like locked myself in my room for five months and had a plan to like have like a handful of demos that I'd written and then also did the demos for So that's what I did. And then my mentor and the first guy that signed me, Jesse Fraser.

Jesse Fraser is the reason I got started on the music industry too. He was my first internship, Jesse Fraser. He's like the Kevin b Jesse Is he like the Kevin Bacon of music Rail everyone has a connection to Just Fraser, I would say, ye, Jesse Fraser, So he was your first.

He signed me to my first deal and then signed me to my second dual and his publishing company, so it was it was called Major Bob.

Major Bob. Yeah, George straight George, Garth Brooks S, Garth Brooks, Garth Brooks, Yes, George and Garth Brooks me.

You know, I'm just kidding, but yeah.

He signed me because he had heard like some shit that I had done, and he was like that's cool. And then he had emailed me, cold email me, and I.

Was like, cold emailed you or I had sent it?

Sorry, I had sent them.

And he replied like a month later, a week later to the songs, was like, hey, these are cool, like want to come by the office.

And how many years ago is this?

This was twenty fifteen, Okay, okay, like six months after I graduated, okay, okay, and then yeah, and then he just like offered me a deal on the spot, and I was like.

Are you kidding me. Go, Yeah, so you had just moved to town. So you go to publishing jil very quickly.

How well, I was in Belmont, So I was. I was in town for like two and a half years.

Okay, So you didn't do your full college at Belmont. You transferred?

Yeah, I transferred, so I was going to school in Seattle at the time. It was tough to leave because I loved it. It was so fun.

Yeah.

I mean your family is doing it right the Bay, then they're in Portland.

Canada is the greatest. I mean, Canada is like I feel like heaven on Earth. Yeah, so beautiful, clean.

Yeah, you're hitting all the good spots.

Okay, so you think you would to stay out of it. Now you got a publishing deal. So did you write with Jesse a lot? When did these cuts start rolling in? Because you've had a lot of cuts, Like you got Blake Shelton. You got wait, what was the Blake Shelton? Now I don't Florida Georgia line. You got a couple of Florida Georgia line, right, and then you have cold beer call. My name is Luke Calms. Lose somebody one Republic? How does one to republic get your songs. So where

Oh? Those?

So that was like my first four years of my first publishing deal about Major Bob, A lot of those country cuts were happening.

So you got a lot of cuts the first publishing.

Well, I mean there was a few years where I still was still learning and stuff, but like I would say, it started hitting like probably two or three years into my deal.

That's huge, the fact that you're getting outside cuts. It's so hard to get a cut.

Yeah, it was your first one.

Oh that's a great question. But I remember my first single was.

Talk You Out of It by fgl And how did that go?

That was so fun? I was like so stoked. Tyler called me to tell me personally. I was like, Tyler, you're so sweet.

Did you write it with them or did they cut your song?

No?

We it was like Hardy James, Hardy, Jamison Rogers, Hunter Phelps and I like wrote together all the time.

And that was before Hardy was Hardy was Hardy.

Before yeah, before anything. Okay, we're all just writers.

All y'all were just writers and you pitched it so like for everyone listening like there's no.

I remember we asked Ashley to come in on that session when he couldn't come.

So actually, as well, who's to say you would have gotten that song?

Well he still he still got publishing on that, okay.

But but for everyone listening though, when you're a songwriter and you write a song that isn't with an artist in the room, even though Hardy was an artist, but I guess he wasn't an artist, then it's like to get the song to an artist and have them actually cut it, put it on their album, and then put it out as a single.

It's like winning the lottery.

It is like winning the lottery. It is so hard.

It's crazy because yeah, yeah, it's insane.

Because most artists want to co write their songs, and if they don't, then they have like a lot of certain writers that they listen to that they you know that they only really kind of like they trust this person's writing stuff fits for them. So it's just hard to get one in there, it is.

And then if you don't have a relationship with the artists, you have to go through the an r like whatever manager and they.

Used to say they'll hear it. Yeah, exactly, So many gate keepers exactly. So how'd you get into FGL.

I just texted it to Tyler because he had been inviting me out to on the Tree Vibes bus.

You remember what that was?

Oh yeah, yeah, did you take some trips on the tree?

I mean that was like how a lot of writers got their first like kind of like juice, you know.

From the tree.

Was so fun.

Yeah, what happened on the Tree bus? I mean you just wrote a bunch of songs. It was really fun, and we got to see like FGL shows every night which were just like filled with hits energy was awesome.

Yeah. So Tree Vibes is fgl's publishing, Yes, but not no longer.

But yeah, they would have a bus that would be that is designated to writing, and so they would invite like writers, young writers out to write with the boys. And there would also be like openers, so like we'd write with whoever's like Chris Lane or whoever would be opening.

So fun.

Yeah, oh my, I went on a few of those trips. It was really fun.

Okay, so you became friends with FGL.

Yeah, So we developed a relationship through that, and so then when we wrote that song, I was just like I'm just gonna text it to him because it's that nerve wrecking sometimes. But like, as long as you know what you're as long as you are confident in the song that you're pitching, I think it's fine.

I know, because there's always that line of like, oh, am I crossing a line? Are we friends?

Am I supposed to just only be a friend and not? But you're also like you're a songwriter.

I mean, he's yeah, we're more like coworkers and friends.

Yeah, so when you have something, it's like, okay, let me text it to you, and you don't abuse it.

You know, if it's like gonna be.

If you're confident in it, send it. Yeah, as long as you're not like blowing them up.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So he and he happened to like it and he was like, awesome, let me play it for BK. And then I was actually friends with their photographer or I was roomates Woul their photographer at the time, so like he was also like talking to them about me, which was which was cute. And then so then I just got a call from Justin who was the photographer at the time, and he was like, hey, like someone wants to talk to you and it was like it was like at like nine a pm on like a weeknight.

Yeah?

It was?

And what Tyler was like, Hey, I just want to let you know, like you like talking out of this new FGL single.

I was like, oh my god, So your first cut was the FGL single.

It was my first. I had cuts before that, but it was my first. Like, oh god, I can like pay off my loans.

And was it? Do you see financial success from that?

For sure?

Was that like back before? Because like singles used to like used to like a lot of.

Money mechanicals when actually sold. I mean I missed that entire era of music.

Hey, I know when CD sold and you had a cut on a CD, you could make tons of money.

Hunts, you could get an album cut and be set for life.

Yeah, I mean insane. Yeah, what is it now when you get a cut? What was it like back A couple.

Of thousand dollars? Back then you would probably make.

Wait wait did you say a couple thousand dollars on it?

If you have like a medium selling album cut, Yeah.

Well thousand dollars. That's just wrong.

Yeah, it's really messed up.

What if you get a single, I mean it depends on the splits, but then you're in six figures.

Okay, that's nice. Yeah, but it probably used to be like seven figures.

Yeah, I mean yeah, I feel like so much money. I feel like an album cut was like a single.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's terms of money.

Right, like it's it's all gone back a step, like an album cut would be probably like six figures and then a.

Single million dollars million, yeah, but.

Now it's like you'll get a couple hundred thousand if you have a single.

Exactly, which is why there's such a grind.

I mean such a grind because you can't call it.

You can't be like oh, and you can't be done.

You can't be done.

There's actually probably is there a whole new wave of pressure once you get that first cut, because you're like, now I gotta find yeah, I gotta catch myself.

Yeah, and then you have to think about which I had never thought about this when I was coming up, like a catalog sale, oh yeah, because like when I first learned about catalog sales, I was like, oh, I can make more money on the songs I already made money on.

Well, now you're gonna have great catalog sale.

Yah. But like that's that was like blowing my mind. I was like, I didn't think about that.

Yeah, but you want you want more of those hits in there so you can have a bigger catalog number when you sell right.

So but yeah, if you ever wanted to do that.

So where did Blake Shelton come from? And his cut? And where and how did the Luke Holms cut?

I always wanted to Blake Shelk's like song that was always like my because I would study his He was like one of the artists that I would study his songs like when I was at Oma, like studying how to write a freaking country song?

Like you really didn't grow up on country?

What did you grow up on?

Like a lot of R and B and like Bob Marley and Beatles and stuff, like a bunch of stuff but not country.

Okay, Interesting that you knew you wanted to come write country songs.

I mean I just wanted to write songs, okay.

And I think this was just like the easiest, Like, oh, you want to go to la It.

Seems so intimidating to me at the time.

I get that, Yeah, totally okay, But okay, so you studied Blake Shelton and he doesn't always even write all his own songs.

No, he honestly barely writes. Yeah.

So he's a great picker, great picker.

Yeah yeah, great and ring there.

He So he knows his brand, he knows how he is. What did you learn by setting Blake Children's song?

I mean, just how specific? Like what makes something right? And like what lyric will make you feel something?

Honestly?

Okay, explain that a little more.

I mean, so, Jesse Alexander is like a songwriter that I think is. I was actually thinking about this last night when I was laying in bed. She's she's my favorite songwriter.

Jesse Alexander. Yeah, tell me why I love her? I don't.

I can't put my finger on it.

She wrote The Climb.

She wrote the Climb, which is like so many best songs of all times to me?

Like which other ones?

Sad? She write? She wrote, I can't even freaking mine? Would be? You done it?

Oh?

Yeah? She wrote, don't think Jesus.

Morgan Wallan, she wrote The Way I Talk Morgan Wallen like she writes songs that have so much heart but are still so commercial, and like she's just she's literally the best.

To me, it's a fine art.

That's a start.

Her melodies are magical, she's just like classic, she's just I mean, I don't know.

She's married to John Randall, who's a huge producer. He produced actually the latest Thousand Horses record.

Yeah.

So John Randall's a badass and he's done Parker McCollum, Miranda Derk Spinley. So they're just like a freaking power house musical family for sure. I can't even imagine what goes on the high closed doors there. I know, you know, they're just singing and making beautiful songs in the bathroom, you know.

Okay, So what is it about?

How do you walk that line of having commercial success but being super vulnerable and like having the hooks?

Yeah, I mean I think that's why you can't really have a great country song without being a little bit vulnerable sometimes.

Does it have to be a real message, No, it doesn't, as.

Long as it's a well written hook. I think, like if you listen to like drink on It, for example, we just talked about that, like it's just like it's just the clever like.

Use of a hook, Like so tell me, let's.

Say on it. We could drink on it.

Like it's just like it just just they wrote it to the wall, Like it's just a song about picking a girl.

But it's just like so clever and like well done.

Is that hard from you too? Is that hard for you to like switch from? Obviously all your songs are masterful, but like you know, like Colber calling My Name is more about drinking. But I mean, obviously you got some mastership in that song. But like to go from writing drinking songs to rolling up the milk welcome at for Good, I mean that is a big leap.

It's cool, it's kind of like a little it's a fun little challenge to like keep you on your toes.

Like, yeah, those are a different world.

Obviously they're different worlds. How do you switch from the world? But what do you do?

How do you what is your little navigator brain do when you just like know how to fit the artist that you're with.

I would say, I guess and then just like follow my instinct and and trust the people I'm writing with, because like sometimes you just have to like get out of the way, you know, and that's someone when someone is caring. You're always going to be changing roles in a writing room. Sometimes you're going to be more of an editor. Sometimes you're going to be driving it. Sometimes you're like sometimes it's really like everyone's just all in it.

Like all hands on board.

Yeah, so it can switch. So you just kind of have to.

Like, yeah, I don't know, kind of settle into where you have the most offer. And that's particular combination of the room.

Yeah, it's really an art to be a songwriter like yourself.

Like it's a fine art because you are.

Totally immersing into the artist energy because you're not You said you don't want to be an artist.

You don't want to be a songwriter.

So it's like you are an artist because you have all the stuff to give, but it's like you are totally having to get into their fine thing.

Yeah.

Yeah, and that's why we're working with Kelsey. I feel so spoiled because she's such a good writer. There are plenty of artists that like writing is not their number one thing.

So do you have a favorite lyric of the Kelsey Project?

Oh, I don't know.

I think I think the hook of Blindsided is absolutely brilliant.

Were you Yeah?

I was like Jesus Christ, were.

You like blindsided or just blind? It's so simple, so.

Impact, it's so good. Yeah, I mean that one hits. I feel like that's like how Tom Petty hit with his lyrics. You know, like they're all so simple and you can totally digest them, but you're like, whoa, right, how Yeah, Like how did something so intense it's so big it put into that?

And I think that's like the heart of like country writing too, because like there's so many like big ideas that people write about and it's just like, oh you just like spot that out in like that line, Like the efficiency in the economy of a lyric blows my mind. Like that's magic to me.

The efficiency in the economy of a lyric fact. So it's like you gotta get it down, you got to whittle it down. So yeah, you got to take this complex idea and get it so boiled down.

To where it's just so refined, so refined.

The exact words say the exact thing, Like every adjective has to be.

Perfect, every word is so chosen.

Yeah, you have four you have two verses and maybe a bridge and a chorus.

It's such a work of art. Yeah, is there a song that hits you the hardest? Like in the in they're rolling up to welcome Matt I.

Let's say, honestly, just married is No one really talks about that song.

But she wrote that by herself, and that hook.

Is crazy because tell me the hook.

Like first we were just married. It's like it's like the play on just married, m M.

And then it's like were we in we were in love?

Or yeah we were Oh, we were just married, like you know the sign of the car, just married and then but then we were just married.

And then we're just married.

Yeah. Yeah, it's brilliant.

It's so good.

That song is underrated. No one really talks about that song because it's like kind of sad and stuff.

But but do people but do people lose their mind on the Penthouse?

Oh my, they lose their mind.

They lose their minds.

It just like Mayhem.

It's it's like they have an exorcism.

What is that? What happens? Why do you think that is?

I think it's just like so like what's the word like catharism? Like people just like scream. Really some of the words.

Do you think it's because so many people like are kind of feeling this in their own way, and they're like, I can't believe this isn't a song.

I think so many people.

I've had so much, so much feedback from people that are like, I'm happily married, but like, why am I like sobbing my eyes out of this divorce album.

It's kind of like the first divorce album that I can like recall. I mean, I'm sure like Loretta Linne touched on all this shit back in the day, you know, but it's just like.

Do you do you feel that way? Like a straight up divorce album?

I know, you know that's so pointed at that. Yeah, and so many people.

Are divorced or divorcing or like so common.

Yeah, and the relationship's not working out is like that's everywhere.

And Kelsey being the one who's making decision who could be painted as the bad guy because it's not like she was married to like a bad human.

Organ's very sweet.

Yeah, great guy and she says that all the time.

It's like great human. He's gonna be a great partner for somebody. But like they just hit the end. Yeah, you know, so it's like.

And there was she was so young when he married her, yeah, or she married him, yeah, like she's twenty two or twenty three, Like.

Who knows anything at that age, right, seriously?

Yeah, you know, and like they were traveling and like they're they're a part all the time.

Like that's really hard.

Yeah, So what's been a bucketless moment for you? What's been in this journey? I know you said twenty twenty three was a very hard year for you because you went so deep and you know you but what has been like something that's happened that was like amazing that you could have never dreamed of.

I mean honestly, like sitting at the floor of the Grammys. I know that's like probably basic, but.

It's not basic. Sitting at the floor of the Grammys is not basic. What does that feel like?

Wild?

Like I was just like looking around. We were sitting there, Withel, Yeah, sorry, we were. It was just me and Kelsey and we're sitting at a table's Lionel and.

His wife and how are they?

They're beautiful?

Great, they're doing great.

My pal Linel.

It was two dollar bills, actually was yeah, two dollar bills?

Have them?

I guess someone gave it to them and he's like, I want you guys to have one.

I was like, oh, did you frame it?

I will, That's adorable, so cute.

So you're just hanging with Line on the fam it was.

I was just looking around like I just I just like got my ass.

Here, and you're like here, I am in the room with the Greatest of All, which means you are also the greatest of All and your album is nominated for the Greatest.

Of All album all these legends this year.

What does that feel like to be nominated with the greatest of All?

It was, I mean, it's so like rewarding. It's just like, Okay, you're on the right track.

You're doing keep doing it majorly on the right track.

I mean it makes you like, it doesn't make you want to write anything different than the way you've been doing it.

So who did you talk to the Grammys? I saw Kelsey and Taylor hanging out. Did you hang out with Taylor?

And we weren't there for that long? Actually, I was just like watching. I didn't really like talk to them anyone.

You didn't like run up to Taylor and Blake House, Travis, No, that's so lame.

I wouldn't.

I was just like.

Beyonce.

Beyonce was there?

Is that cool to to be breathing all the same are as, all these legends in one room.

Yeah, it was crazy. Yeah.

And then yeah, and being able to like watch you know, Scissor's performance right there, I was like we were dancing. I definitely got caught eating grapes on camera, so I won't be doing that again.

I will not be eating I won't be eating single shred.

Did y'all do any after parties?

We went to We all like went to dinner with like Kelsey's parents and my parents were cute and like some of our friends and Kelsey's team.

It was very wholesome and cute.

Afterwards, that is so wholesome and cute.

Yeah, So we actually didn't do it the after parties thing, but we definitely celebrated though.

It was fun.

Was it was it, y'all?

Y'all don't make this album trying to make Country Album of New Year for the Grammys, but then you're nominated for it?

Was it hard to not win?

Yeah?

Yeah, Lanny One, which I mean, she's amazing, it's so cool, was amazing a female, but like yeah, when you're you've made it that far.

It's like, oh it's it was like it would have been cool. It would have been cool.

And I think else he took a little harder than I did, because just because she's been nominated more the times than me, and.

She put her heart. I mean she literally put her.

Heart on the floor and like just offered her heart to like the world and lent to not get the gold for that.

I've I felt that for her.

Has she Have you seen the healing that's happened in her because of this album?

Oh my god, she's like a different person.

Do you think it's because she got it out she had an exorcism?

Absolutely, because she's different. I mean she's she has the same she's the same sweet girl, but like she's grown up, Like she's unrecognizable.

So what's coming up next? Are you producing more?

More in the middle of her next album? Which is exciting, it's a lot of work, but it's fun.

Is it a totally different feel?

I would say it's not totally different. It's like kind of the same.

We're not heartbroken anymore, We're not well, we're not heartbroken, but we still got me.

But it's not it's not all the way, but she gushy, Yeah.

We still got it. Yeah, that you're coming.

Out in a new relationship, which is awesome.

Obsessed with watching them, Yeah, yeah, it's great.

To see their journey and like how they like fight for each other and is he the cutest?

He's awesome? Yeah, very sweet, Yeah, very sweet.

She's dating John b everyone from out of branks, out of ranks, which I think they're a hot couple for sure.

They're such a hotel.

I'm like, dang, it actually like makes me like seeing how hot they are. They're both so beautiful and their models so crazy in love with each other.

Yeah, they really are so.

Okay, So, so does this all this love and all this writing about someone else's love life, how does that interplant to your like world of romance?

Like, what do you mean?

I mean, I'm just like helping. It's like kind of the same as the other thing. I'm just like not, I don't really have much going on, Like I'm.

Over here fending fielding all this for everyone.

I've just holded down exactly. I'm holding it down exactly. Carol.

You're not You're not feeling all the love and the heartbreak and the turmoil. That's kind of nice, I guess. Yeah, well I missed the dating apps like I have been with my husband Michael forever, which I am so great beufore ten years married in August, thank you, and five years before that, so we've been together fifteen years. So I missed the dating apps. I feel like I would have crushed them.

You definitely would have crushed them. I mean, but would they have crushed me?

That is a question.

Though it's just like a waste of time, it is, I mean, the ratio of how many people are worth any anything?

I don't know. I don't know.

Is it just not even?

But I'm just like so picky.

Also, so what are you looking for?

No one all in dating app when you know, think, I don't know, maybe you never know.

Would you want to be with another artist, like an artistic mind or is that too?

I definitely have to be inspired by someone.

I've learned that, yes, yes, be inspired by them. Yeah, well if they're an artist or like in another realm. I don't know, but I don't think I could date like a Normy.

No no, no, absolutely not no. You could not date a nor me?

Are you kidding me?

Your life from the start has not been normy. You're from the Bay with chiropractical parents who are from Canada who lived in Portland, like are on the beach, Like you're creative, so you can't be normal.

You don't even know what that is, you know. I mean maybe that would be fun to do something a banker. Oh no, no, no, no. You'll have a certain crew that you always write with.

It's either her and I or then we write with Hillary, Jesse, Joe and Karen for this kind of record, which kind of just formed a little gang. Yeah, okay, it's Hillary, Hillary Lindsay Sorry, oh Hillary, Jesse, Joe Dylon. He was nominated for Songwriter the Year at the and then Karen Fairchild from a little big town.

Yeah, it's just so fun. We just like drink wine and write your truth. Yeah, it's so fun.

Do you really think to yourself like, oh my god, I'm doing it?

Yeah? Actually, what does it like to like? Check? It's wild? It's wild. It's so cool.

Is it more than you could have imagined when you moved here from the bank? Oh?

I think about that all the time to day we were in the studio, like cutting at Black River last week or the week before I think with Kelsey for the new stuff, and I was just like walking down on the alleyway like I'd gone and coffee on the lunch break, and I was like, I was like I remember walking down music grub.

I me like wide eyed.

I wondered wondering how man get it my foot in the door, what it's going to look like? You know, so outside of it, and then I'm just like in it.

It's so crazy.

Do you think it's so cool?

It's like everyone it's so freaking cheesy. But like, if you have.

A dream, like do it go The dream is for a reason, Yes, for a reason, and you can do it.

You can literally do it.

You just have to keep following. Like they say in prison, just do the next right thing.

The next right thing. It seems so far away until you're in it and then just like oh shit.

And the only real guidance you can do is just do the next thing that you're called exactly.

Just follow your gut. Literally, your gut is everything got intuition.

That's so hard to like let that be the answer, but it is the answer.

I know. When you have a million people telling you things, Yeah.

There's always formulas and all this stuff, but it's really like you just have to follow your.

Yeah, And that's like in a macroway, in a microway, like when you're writing a song if you have a feeling about a lyric that's not right, or like a big picture thing, it's.

Like, thank God, do we have our intuition?

I know?

Where would we be?

I feel like that is the God inside of us? Is how we know?

That is?

Yeah. I always wrap up. I would talk to you forever. I always wrap up with leave your light.

And it is a super open ended question, just on your journey, all the things that you've experienced, all these highs and lows and magic and you know, anxiety and the whole gamut.

What do you want people to know? Just to leave them a little inspired.

I just think kind of touched on what I just said, like you can literally do it if you want, Like the world is yours and that's so cheesy, but like we're very powerful, more powerful than we think, and we have all the tools.

I love that.

Thank you so much for joining me, thank you for sharing your heart and talent and all these incredible songs and albums that you're part of.

I'm so excited to hear the next Kelsey record. Thanks, thank you for joining and if you're cool, we have a few burning questions. We get a little extra episode where we get a little burning question so stick around and Thursday we're gonna have some burning questions, so tune in. Thank you for joining mea