Premium: Being Male or Female is Not a Feeling State

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Okay, so we're back here with Az Hakeem as we wrapped up our uh exploration of foreign languages on the main episode. Um and you know, you were starting to tell us You know, Stella had asked, what should parents do? Right? If their kids are getting into this, and you said, of course, don't collude with them, help them piece together. How did they get to their conclusion? So I can just imagine parents in my mind, and of course,

kids that I've worked with who feel so protective and nervous about this solution that they truly believe this is the answer. So anybody who's asking me to like show my work essentially. is trying to slip me up, they're trying to challenge me, they're backing me into a corner. So what what do you what do you say to parents who have that problem? It's to come across as wanting as the as the parent wanting to understand. I don't get it. Can you get it? Help me get it. Because I don't get it.

So so you're not challenging and confronting them. You're coming across as this stupid person that doesn't understand anything, and you want them to teach you how they got there.

to make sense to you. You can say when they start quoting stats and stuff, say, No, no, no, I'm I'm not interested in all that. I just I'm interested in you because you're my son or daughter. I want to understand what what you've been thinking, what you've been going through'cause they'll they'll go off on a tangent and not talk about other things, not them. And what if they say?

Like they kind of turn into an almost an automaton where they are just putting out just kind of just the slogans and it's like trans people are the most persecuted people in the world. Um she take them off that topic, she's like, hang on, I know I I know you saying that, yeah, but I w I I you know, with my son and daughter I just want to understand you and where you like how you've got that. So keep bringing it back to them as from a position of you wanting to understand.

I'm not trying to critique that. I don't know. I just feel it. And you don't understand because you're not trans. What is that feeling? What is that feeling? What is the feeling? You know,'cause being male or female isn't a feeling state. You know, it's like it's like feeling Thursday. It's not a feeling state, you know. But if you were trans you would understand that, but because I'm trans I understand this feeling.

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Yeah, I mean uh I think it's so hard because first of all there's already a bit of a preconceived notion that a lot of kids come into this conversation with because they've been online reading like let's say horror stories about parents who kick their trans kids out of the house. So there's already a bit of nervousness. I think it's also because they know that what they're saying is not gonna make any sense to mom and dad, so they're apprehensive about it.

And you know, the parent child dynamic we also have the natural tendency for adolescents to play with rebellious ideas, to challenge their parents' perceptions of them. And this is a really powerful thing when you tell somebody only you can decide who you really are. And anyone who questions you should just shut up and take your word at face value. Like there's something incredibly powerful in that for adolescents. We're not, you know, we're not trying to um just shut down your idea.

Uh engaging with a sense of curiosity is something I always recommend. Like always. Just go at it with curiosity. The other thing I used to do was put forward a different version to them and saying, you know, like if Stella believed that she was a black African if she painted her face black and spoke to an Iran accent, would she be?

And they go, Oh that's that's like that's like, you know, reappropriation And they go, But is it different then? Because what if she really believed that? Would she if she if she really looked like she was and sounded like she was, would she be And so if you put it in a different framework with a different variable, they kind of get it.

And th and you say what's different about gender then? It's a different variable, but it's the same thing. Why is that diff why is one acceptable one why is the other one not acceptable? Why and so try and try and go from a sideways perspective like that because That often works, you know,'cause I I I would I would be I should really be, you know, a trans aristocrat.

You know, because I believe that I should be. You know, I'd be a happier version of my real true self. But I'm not, and I've got to come to terms I'm not. But you know, you could collude me and just pretend that I was, or trans royal or whatever it is, but you know, there's n why is one more legitimate than the other?

You said earlier, you know, y you show parents or show parents could show their kids Richie's substack. Would you be of the opinion that they should do things like that? Because a lot of people would disagree, but you know, No, they should because it's it's it's it's real data.'Cause all they're going on is is false.

fictional data, this sort of like, you know, this photoshopped version of of reality that they're getting from activists and propaganda. So you've got to counter the propaganda with the opposite. The problem is children probably won't read it if they're if they're captured.

Um it's like getting a um you know, a a a socialist to read the c the reform manifesto or vice versa. Um but um very like the Yeah. So you know, but you could yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw W what year did you stop working with gender patients? Last year. Okay, so you've worked with ROG D kids then?

I don't work with kids. I'm an adult psychiatry. Oh, that's right. You work with kids. You're either child or adult. I'm adult. Yeah, I don't know why anyone would want to do child psychiatry because they don't have enough as many pathologies as adults do. Um anyone wants to do child psychiatry or child psychotherapy.

Um atlots are much more interesting. So um I've I've gone as far I've gone far back as uh as seventeen but I've never done although I did I was attached to Gid the Tabistock for two years. where my main function was to cause trouble and argue and 'Cause I think I did I I'm not sure whether I said this new last one, but you know, the I was seeing four five year old um camp boys and and and tomboys girls coming in.

And I was saying, Look, this this kid's gonna grow up just to be gay, like, isn't what you're doing mad? And the c th the person who's founded the clinic said to me Well, you might think it's mad, but would it be any more mad than if they were gay? 'Cause this clinic was based in institutional homophobia where it was pathological to be gay.

you know, I was taught two two terms of seminars on the pathology of homosexuality which was th thought of as an inversion, so not a perversion, but an inversion, and taught about how awful and pathological it was And I was thinking, my God, this is two thousand this this is and th and the and the people were stuck in some sort of prehistoric age. And so to to to trans a potentially gay child into a heterosexual trans kids was thought by the gid service to be a better outcome.

Uh how do you think the state of play is now? I know we've lived moved long after kids now, but like, you know, post CAS, UK So Cass was brilliant, obviously, but um It's it's strange how the wider system in in the UK is still managing to find ways out. So there's you know, you're still finding child gender clinics that are opening up.

where they're proudly saying, Oh, we're not going along with a caste review. We we're believing in w and well, how can this be allowed? How can how can you not just ignore the caste review? And, you know, our Royal College psychiatrists, they

They took forever to respond. I'm not sure they really officially have responded properly yet, but they it's almost like the cashier didn't happen. Meanwhile the Royal College Kaisers were still proudly boasting that they were a stonewall champion until very recently. So yes, the casserole was great, at least it got MPs to see the light, um, and it was a relief for most psychiatrists, but there seemed to be services being set up that are avoiding all recommendations.

Yeah. My first paper was was comparing it to the Emperor's New Clothes and I was I was likening myself to the little boy saying the Emperor's naked whilst everyone else was just colluding and lying and and going wrong with it. Except you had vertical hair. Продолжение следует... Is that you were yes, yes, I have You mightn't see me because of the pallor and the walls, but I have a voice. It's like camouflage Stella? It's camouflage.

Why am I adding to it? But a key part of the Emperor's new clothes is you were you were stupid if you didn't You were stupid if you didn't see his clothes. And that's like the way people are so patronizing about identity. People say to me, Oh come on, Stella Like you know, we're we've moved on from from the basic of the thing. Because internally in their head they're not really seeing them as the opposite sex.

and believe them but they're they're human they're patronizing them and it's and it's like this pat patronizing pity is worse than reality. That just just just have the decency to be authentic and real rather than pitying people and patronizing them. Yeah, that's a good point.

Well, it's been lovely to talk to you. Um And you Sash. I'm not sure about Stella. It's been lovely to hear Stella's voice with a floating hair just moving across the screen. You joined it in, Sasha. Poor Stella. No, I I'm I'm joking with you now. I have a feeling next time I see you you're gonna have like a green screen and you're like, I'm taking care of this background situation once and for all. I thought maybe you're doing it for Halloween, like a haunted thing.

No. I'm gonna get somebody else in and they're gonna sort it all out. Wait till you say I am gonna be happening the next time. Next week I will be just Is that more than license on the shelf? Is that a pumpkin? Is that a pumpkin lamp on the shelf? No, that's that's just a lamp. It's actually very, very stylish. It's just not picture. We can't even see it. Bring it into the shop. I might get a plant there.

No, that's a mirror and a light. Beautiful light actually. Beautiful light. A mirror. Very well. You might see it next week, it might be there. It's very elegant. Okay, hopefully. But somebody else has to tell me because I I am so embarrassing. Well, as was not shy. He told you all all of his opinions about your backdrop. Not Shy says it like it is.

Yeah. All right. Well we'll let you go here. Thank you so much again. And we uh are excited to share this interview. I know, I know. It's been a while. Nice to talk again. Thank you. Bye. Thank you for being a premium subscriber of our podcast. Your financial support helps to make all of this possible.

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