Dysphoria Means Something Different to Different People

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So we're back here with Erin Kimberly and in the full episode of course you've shared with us like your own process of re identifying with your femaleness and as a lesbian and you know Stella raised a great question just now about um dysphoria. And you know, for you, I am curious You you are re-identifying with your femalehood as a biological reality-based category, and I think rationally speaking, logically speaking, that makes a ton of sense.

Can you share with us like the way your dysphoria shows up? Are you just Are you more comfortable when you look in the mirror and you see a masculine appearance? Or are you now You talked about like reconnecting with this version of you through a TikTok filter of like this feminine younger woman that you could have been, for example. So where are you at with your own dysphoria? How is it showing up? What is it? Because it It's very interesting to watch you grow through this process.

Yeah, that's a really good question. I do yeah, I mean, for some reason I i it hasn't been that difficult to integrate my appearance into a Butch lesbian identity. Because I do, for whatever reason, I do feel comfortable appearing as masculine as I do. And you know, with without that needing to be, I am a man.

Which I think for me is just is is a healthy place to have landed. I mean, A, I can't do much about my appearance at this point anyway. Um, that I always was very gender non-conforming. I think That doesn't really have to be a problem. The b the problem the societal problem and I think the personal problem is when we take that too far and try to pretend that that that sex change is possible.

Um but yeah when I look in the mirror I do for for whatever reason I do feel comfortable seeing a masculine face. I don't feel I don't feel driven to feminize that. Like I don't feel like I could be obsessively, you know, shaving my face three times a day, trying to eliminate the stubble and And and I don't like I I feel okay about the fact that it's there. I just somehow have integrated that into a self concept of this is just part of my Butch lesbian identity.

Which is probably healthier than me feeling like, Oh, I you know, I need to reclaim my appearance before testosterone, right? Like'cause I think that would just be a game of whackable to try to To reverse something that is never fully reversible. And do you remember when the lesbians suggested that you might make a gesture by shaving? And it turns out your shaving will only last a few hours.

Um will there be negotiation on that? Will there be an understanding, I wonder, fr from lesbians that it's it's it's kind of playing silly beggars at this, you know? My As a gesture, I think it's specific to that community. I think you know, because we have started negotiations, we've started the conversations, we've started building a relationship together, and they made the request for the gesture. I think the gesture itself, the fact that I was willing to do it.

Is in itself was it's served its purpose more so than whether or not I have a completely bare face and and look like a woman again. If that makes sense. I think it was the relational gesture that was more important than the resulting aesthetic. Because there are other women in the in those in that community who have full on beards. Really?

who aren't being asked to shave them off because they're known to the community. I'm a newbie in that community showing up with a very masculine appearance. It was a gesture. Um so I think I don't think they're gonna have a problem with the fact that I've got a bit of stubble. And these women with the full on beards, have they got D S Ds or or or something?

Yeah, I think some of them do. I mean those those communities had always been inclusive of women with facial hair um that was part of of the culture of those And some of them ended up medicalizing and and pushing that further, but they were still known to the community and a and a known entity and therefore that felt comfortable for the community. But if we're talking about bringing

medicalized women into those spaces who are not known by the community. They're just now these very masculine faces showing up. How are these communities supposed to know? Are these just men showing up? Are these women showing up? I it's

Yeah, and I would say it's not just about the facial hair or the no facial hair, it's the gestalt of a person. Like I I go to a coffee shop in my area where there's A person there who has a full beard and it's very obvious to me that it's an FTM trans. And I still the gestalt of her still to me reads is female, very female. And so I mean, maybe with many years and fat redistribution and this and that, a person, whether they shave or not.

I mean there's lots of men who are shaven and we still look at them and the gestalt of them is male or masculine. So it it i it is interesting about like whether or not this person is known to the community or not. But

You know, I am I am wondering about the nature of gender dysphoria itself. Something I think a lot about is in, you know, some of the we have only a few studies of detransitioners. And in a lot of them the subject of redefining womanhood comes up, right? So like a lot of detransitioners say, once I redefined what a woman means, I detransitioned and like that helped me heal my dysphoria.

I think for some people it's not that simple. For some people, there's like a biological desire, a physical desire to be. masculine in appearance. And I think about sometimes detransitioners who You know, th it's a bit of a hindsight assumption, but it's like

Well, you had dysphoria anyway, and now you have a masculinized appearance. You have sprouting chest hairs on your chest, you're detransitioning to But you are maybe comforted by, not you, I'm not accusing you or saying this to you, but if somebody has dysphoria, the appearance of a beard and chest hairs is gonna comfort them. So I am always curious about This process

And of course there are some people who went down the identity pathway and they were actually always very, very feminine. They never really had like real gender dysphoria. They had like ROGD gender dysphoria. So then when they go back to like a very feminine appearance, they're back in their home comfort body, if that if that makes sense. Yeah.

I I'm very curious if like I mean, let's say there was some weird magic wand and you woke up tomorrow like bar like looking like a Barbie doll, would you become dysphoric again? I mean I think I would. Okay. I mean I I I never look like a Barbie doll, so going back to Barbie doll would never happen. Right, right, right. I see what you're saying. That person that I've that I was seeing through that TikTok act TikTok app, uh, you know, through the filter that removes

uh the effects of testosterone on my face. I was able to feel And again I'm kind of I'm kind of externalizing her, I know, but I was able to feel affection and appreciation and love for her in a way that I don't think I could have in the past. So I think that has softened that I was able to see her face and not recoil from it. But I do still feel a sense of incongruence. So if I could maybe make a distinction between

A sense of incongruence and dysphoria, because I don't think a sense of incongruence in itself has to cause distress. Okay. So I don't think my sense of incongruence is necessarily ever gonna go away. I think there will be an aspect of me that I I I enjoy and just am innately more masculine.

I think that can be built into a healthy identity, like the Butch Lesbians were doing for a lawyer very long time, that as long as we can find meaning in that experience and and some form of expression in of of that experience in ways that other people aren't being hostile. Yeah. I think that's best case scenario. You know, we address Some of our societal reactions to gender nonconformity, I think, is the work that needs to be done.

and and accepting, you know, my sense of incongruence is maybe a part of my sexual orientation and a part of the masculinization that occurred because of my D S D. Mm-hmm. That in itself, I think, is just an organically occurring phenomenon that I shouldn't feel any shame about. I think that the stress comes from the shame and the societal response to it.

Um th there's one thing I'd like to add to the distress and the incongruences. I just had a little incident last week that feels kind of relevant. I was in my mother's house, the house I grew up, and uh she kind of pointed to a letter that I had written as a teenager and she said, Oh, you wrote that.

as in do you want to take it home with you, you know? And I I kind of had a a a very strong kind of revulsion of Oh God no, I I don't want that letter. I don't even want to see my writing, which I recognise from being a teenager. It was a very strong Ugh, get it away from me. You know what I mean? Because it w whatever it represented was basically painful and distressed. and uh a a a distress part of my life if you follow me and just oh god.

And so w you know, to a hammer everything's a nail, like so so so to somebody who's transitioned or who's had, you know, your experiences, they would see it all through the prism, let's say, arguably, of masculinity or, you know, the the various Well it could be other aspects of the rejection of the self is is is you know, part of what we do. We we kind of evolve and move on and we remember an old incident or an old part of yourself.

those days. Uh you know, with sadness sometimes, with fondness other times. It's it's part of living and the complexity of being human. It used to be that I couldn't look at old photographs of myself without that feeling just that that recoil. Yeah. Um so I do think it's really promising that again, you know, through that TikTok gap, seeing that

face that I didn't feel a sense of recoil. And I have been going through a lot of old photographs because my my mom moved recently and she w wanted me to go through a bunch of old family photographs. And then I have an aunt and uncle that that passed away and my aunt cousins went through boxes of old photographs. So I was I've been seeing a lot of old photographs of myself.

at various stages through my life without a sense of disgust or distress or recoil, which I think is I was really happy about. Yeah, that's huge. That's that's really nice to hear.

I guess one one last thing that I'm thinking about as you talked about the the natural propensity for masculinity and how there needs to be like a healthy version of that. And I agree with you completely. I'm just kind of thinking just in my own experience, both as a clinician, just a and as a person. You know, lesbians that I met who own their masculinity with pride and comfort. Um,

Sometimes on the surface, someone looks confident and then you discover that they do have some gender dysphoria and some body discomfort. Um, but I think there there is a difference between a person who just happens to be masculine and can own it versus a person who is both masculine and has severe, severe gender dysphoria.

And I'm wondering if you can maybe just speak to based on your experience in different communities and through all of the work that you've done and your own experience, like what what do you think the difference is for those people? Like why do some people have gender dysphoria and other people just confidently proudly own their way of being. It's a good question.

A big part of the the challenge doing the clinical work, isn't it? Is I don't know that we necessarily have a hundred percent solid answers, you know, like what is that exact mechanism? And I think it could be different from person to person.

And what the word dysphoria means seems to be different from person to person, right? Like some it's very much a body dysmorphia, and some it's they'd say no, it's more of a of a like a social role thing. Um But yeah, I mean when I was working with young people, I I would invite them into just a curiosity about that and and say, you know, okay, before we have we before we put anything medical on the table and and entertain the idea that

you want to live as male, like we need to ask the questions, what is it about being female that is so difficult for you right now? And I would sometimes have young people like start crying at you know, when you ask that question. Um, but that's where the that's where the work starts, right? Is what is it about being female that is difficult for you right now? Is it is it that people aren't treating you the way you want to be treated or

you know, are are boys looking at you in a way that doesn't feel comfortable for like what is it that's making your life difficult for you right now? Um I so I would usually get I did I did have many young young girls, you know, in a therapeutic setting desist. And and some of it was about

they were overly limiting what they felt they could be as girls. I I remember this one girl that came in. She was one probably one visit away from starting testosterone and and her parents brought her in and she looked kinda distraught and I brought her into my office and You know, she was doing the f she had done the full social transition thing and and she said, I'm not feeling happy.

Mm-hmm. And I asked when were you last happy? Mm-hmm. And she said before like she said when I was a girl. Yeah. And she's but she but she still She for some reason she still felt like

that was a problem. Like that she still needed to go through a transition. And she said, Well, if I'm so I said, So what is the problem with being a girl? Like what what is what prevents you from just being a girl? And she said, Well, I guess I have to go back to growing my hair long and wearing dresses and and I said No you don't. Like you can look exact yeah, you can yeah, exact exactly. I said you don't have to change a thing about yourself.

Girls are allowed to wear hoodies, girls are allowed to wear baggy pants, girls are allowed to wear running shoes, girls are allowed to have short hair. And she lit up Like it was Christmas Day. I know. And I never saw her again. She never came back for hormones. Like it's like sh it's like these girls have no idea that There's more than one way to be a girl. What a disservice all this identity ideology stuff has done to them. Oh my God. Like how simple was that? Like girls can wear sneakers.

I'm free. How can it be that simple? I know. Obviously, not that simple in all cases. I mean, I've worked with some very complex cases where the dysphoria.

Deeply ingrained in the body itself and all this stuff. But man, sometimes it really is that simple. Sorry, Sally, go ahead. Could I ask just before we finish, um, as uh you know, it's g it's a therapeutic role you're in. Do you tell them that you are uh, you know a woman. Do do you get that o off at the beginning? And are are the

Are the gender dysphoric girls who come to your office particularly interested in that because surely they'd say, Well I can be like you, I can be like you. That that would be my fear if I was a parent bringing my girl to you. Yeah, and I understand that fear, um, which is why I'm personally not doing therapeutic work right now, because I would want to be absolutely confident that I'm not doing harm to somebody by doing that work and

I'm still figuring that out. Um so when I started doing the activist work I stopped doing clinical work with young people. And I try and I committed fairly early on to not making content for any young people either. I engage adults, I engage policymakers and clinicians and I do speak with some parents. But So far, I mean I've had a very public voice now for about five years, and nobody at any time has ever come to me and said, You were the reason my kid transitioned.

Quite the opposite. I've had lots of parents come to me saying, Thank you, you're the reason my kid desisted. So I need to go with that evidence, right? Like I need to Yeah. Yeah. Well, obviously you've had such a an interesting experience and background and you are probably seen as somebody trusted with knowledge and expertise and lived experience. So given that you know so much of healing radicalization in these gender kids is about being seen as a trusted source.

You have that. I mean, that's pretty amazing actually. So I'm not surprised to hear that parents have shared that with you. I do have young people because I do have s more social like not so much when I was just on on Twitter because that's a very adult. That's kind of our network. talking amongst ourselves. Um but when I started joining things like Instagram and TikTok

and creating content where potentially younger people are seeing it. Um again, I'm testing that. Like what is my impact on these young people. Right. And I do have t I have had tons of young lesbians reach out to me Some who've medicalized, some who've thought about it, some who never want to medicalize and they're just like, Can I just talk to a butch? Like and they see me as one, right? They see me, uh, despite the fact I've medicalized. The young people

Young people aren't fooled by this. Like the young lesbians that I was meeting at these like lesbian events and stuff over the summer. they're not fooled by this. They know that we're lesbians that are transitioning. And so these young butches that are reaching out to me, they see me as a butch even though I medicalize. They're not confused about that. And But some of them are really stuck in the middle. Um, maybe they have taken some testosterone, they know darn well that they're women.

But they're stuck in this space and sometimes for safety reasons. I mean I've young lesbians in places like Israel reaching out to me and they're saying, I don't think I'm safe. Like Looking l masculine like I do, I just live stealth as male because I'm stuck in So I'm hearing that a lot from from the young lesbians that they don't know how to walk this back.

Uh especially once once they medicalize and so that it's the work I'm trying to do with them is carving. What does that look like? We it's almost like we we are something else now. Yeah. We are this third thing. Yeah. Yeah. And and maybe Butch Lesbian it comes closest. to that and picking again what we were saying earlier, picking up cues from what Butch lesbian culture was doing to create metaphorical space for our masculinity, there may be clues there for how we can occupy occupy space as as

kind of butch to an extreme that we've medicalized and really pushed the summer gender nonconformity. But we have to have some sort of space where A we get to feel good about ourselves. I don't want to feel I don't want these young girls to always feel a sense of Yeah. Uh much. Much sounds like a cereal or something. Eat your munch for breakfast. Yeah. Oh my god, I just realized the joke I made. That was way more sense than Sasha. Well that's probably a good place.

Well, thank you, Erin. It was so great to talk to you. So great to see you both again. Yeah, it was really good. Thank you. Thank you for being a premium subscriber of our podcast. Your financial support helps to make all of this possible.

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