186 - Courage is Contagious, with Whistleblower Vanessa Sivadge

Hi, I'm Stella O'Malley, a psychotherapist in Ireland. And I'm Sasha Ayad, an adolescent therapist in the United States. And this is gender a wider level. A podcast. Mm-hmm. Personal stories and psychological exploration, we seek to open up the discourse around this hot button issue. Join us as we look at gender from a wider How's it going, Sasha?

It's going well. We talked with another whistleblower today, and Vanessa's story is actually quite amazing and shocking, which came on the heels of Aton Heim, who we also spoke to on this show. So before we kind of tell listeners the main important things they're gonna get, let me just explain what happened with Vanessa. So she's a pediatric registered nurse and she exposed the illegal use of Medicaid. to cover sex hormones and transgender treatments for minors at Texas Children's Hospital.

And after blowing the whistle on this transgender program, which was being conducted in secret, she received a visit from two FBI agents in July of 2023. And she thinks they came there to intimidate her into silence. And despite threats for her safety, Vanessa came forward publicly in June of twenty twenty four with the journalist Chris Rufo to expose the fraud and wrongdoing at her hospital. And the hospital immediately placed her under investigation and placed her on leave.

And then in August of twenty twenty four Vanessa was fired by Texas Children's in retaliation for blowing the whistle and exposing these illegal practices. And she's retained a law group called the Burke Law Group and is now fundraising for her legal defense. in order to fight back against a wrongful termination. So as you can hear, what what happened to Vanessa is quite shocking and she tells us kind of the story about that today.

It's a shocking story when you hear think of two FBI agents arriving at this, you know young, good woman's door. Like she's clearly, you know, a a religious person who's a decent person who's just kind of lives by her values and she's so far from this kind of idea of like it feels like something like from the Soviet Union and the KGB knocking at your door or East Germany. And all she was doing was actually something that's within whistle blowing protection.

She was calling out what looks like it was Medicaid fraud, documentation fraud in Texas Children's Hospital. It's it's a frightening image, really. Yeah, and we get into this a little bit in the episode. I don't want to give too much away, but I think in America there is actually precisely the thought that if you are a religious Christian you might be some sort of nutty extremist.

And so there the weight of that here I think is a little bit different than maybe some other parts of the world. But I do think one of the most shocking things you'll hear today is the way the hospital was documenting children's biological sex. They were documenting it literally wrong. And the implications for this for likeness Medicaid fraud, taxpayer dollars,

And also the health and and safety of these kids themselves, of course, is on the line when you start documenting that a female child is male. So we will let listeners hear that because that was one of the most incredible things that we heard today.

And Vanessa as well, she speaks about s you know, why she spoke up and she talks about Doctor Ayton Haym and says that, you know, courage is contagious. It's it's really quite lovely the way she has a lot of advice to give would be potential whistleblowers who might be biting their lip and listening to us and she she does that in the bonus content and it's really worth listening to.

It's a it's a very powerful ep kind of a very powerful episode that shows a kind of a glimpse of twenty first century madness really that I think it's well worth listening to. Yeah, we hope you enjoy this conversation with Vanessa Civid. Before we dive into the conversation, we want to take a quick moment and thank our sponsors, Gen Spect and Therapy First.

Genspect is an international organization committed to fostering a healthy approach to sex and gender. Genspect will be hosting the Bigger Picture Conference in Lisbon, Portugal this September. To learn more about who will be speaking at the conference and to order your tickets, visit genspect.org.

Therapy First is a non profit worldwide professional association of mental health providers who view psychotherapy as the appropriate first line treatment for gender dysphoria. Therapy First supports psychotherapists working with gender dysphoric youth. psychotherapy. Mm-hmm.

Now here's the conversation. Howdy Stella and welcome Vanessa. We're glad to have you. Oh, thank you for having me today. Yeah, it's it's great to have another whistleblower. We've we've we've uh you know interviewed a few now and each time a whistleblower speaks out, I think uh a huge amount unfolds as a result.

So tell us a little bit about where you were working, what you were noticing, and kind of how this initiated for you. Like what was going on towards the beginning of noticing something was up? Absolutely. Well thank you. This is such an honor to be with you today, first of all. So thank you for having me. Um yeah, my my name is Vanessa Sivage. I live and work in Houston, Texas.

and in twenty fifteen graduated from nursing school and three years later uh accepted a position at Texas Children's Hospital. And for me it was like accepting a dream job. Texas Children's is consistently uh in the top three hospitals in the United States.

they see around five million patients yearly and they bring in over six billion dollars in annual revenue. So this is a huge uh very prestigious institution and anyone who works there will tell you what an honor it is to to be employed by the the hospital leading the way in pediatric medicine.

And so that's truly how I felt. Um, I thought that I would be at this hospital for the rest of my life. And uh really um gr um I the bulk of my training in the hospital was in the cardiology department, so that's where I started. And then three years later, in 2021, is when I accepted a different position into a pediatric multi-specialty clinic.

And in this multi-specialty clinic was the endocrinology department, in which children confused about their sex were coming on a weekly basis to be seen, in particular by Dr. Richard Roberts. And he was the transgender provider um at the time. Um and I really had a first hand view of what it was like to see a child come in who was confused about their sex and walk out with a cross sex hormone.

Um I saw in particular, and I know you guys have covered this extensively, but particularly for the young girls, the young women who come in, they also have numerous other issues going on. They're autistic, they're depressed, they're anxious. Um many of them have previous attempts of self harm or suicide in their record. And so I started to put all of this together as a nurse and as uh someone working with not only Dr. Roberts but with other providers as well in the clinic. Um and really

just had a crisis of conscience at one point. Um, you know, I think uh my faith played a huge role in that, and I'm a Christian, but aside from my faith, I think uh as a nurse we go through nursing school and we learn about how to care for patients and upholding the highest standard of ethics in the in that care. And that was something that I I really felt very strongly about in my spirit that what we were doing wasn't

Providing long-term benefit or help to these young young boys and girls coming into the clinic, but it was just harming them. Um it was setting them up for failure later in the Yeah. I I'd love to ask you actually something about your training because something that we've noticed is that

You can go through training around mental health or medicine. And for the most part, this isn't always true, but you learn about like treating the person as a whole person, how different body systems interact with each other. But when it comes to the gender stuff, it's almost like The philosophy behind it is so different in that gender is this isolated thing and nothing else matters. Who cares about the other mental health issues? Just focus on the gender.

So I'm curious once you got to this um m multi spectrum clinic or whatever. When you were in nursing school, had you been trained on gender identity, or was that something that was appropriately nestled under like Other things that a person would be dealing with. Like I'm just curious how ca because the way that gender endocrinologist guy operated.

Once you learn a lot about gender medicine, that's pretty boilerplate, actually. So when you were training in nursing school, did you know that that's how gender medicine, quote unquote, is practiced? That's a great question. Um, I would say n it was not talked about. If it was um taught and discussed in the nursing program I was in, it was under psychiatric health, which is one class.

and I can I can't even tell you if there was a whole chapter dedicated to it. It was this was ten years ago. Um and so I I don't think that it was such a hot topic. issue ev which is really sad that it's kind of evolved so quickly over these last ten years. Um but no, I I don't feel like it was um taught appropriate and if it was and if it was taught then it was, you know, just adhere to the gender affirming model. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. I was wondering, did you have any position on trans or trans kids, or was it something that you had thought about before you kind of arrived in that office and saw it happening? Yeah, I would say that um You know, my f my faith teaches me that God is the author of life and that He created the male and female. and that that design by a good creator should be upheld and celebrated as good. And so that that was where my beliefs, my strong belief came from.

Um but and that's just kind of how I I came into my nursing role, you know, with that belief in mind.

Okay. So I mean I'd I'd love to come back to that because this raises a really interesting question that happens a lot in these debates around like what are people's basis for objecting to gender medicine. So I if you don't mind, I'd love to come back to that later. But You start to witness kids coming into the clinic with lots of other troubling conditions, maybe a history of self-harm or suicide attempts, and you have a crisis of conscience.

What was the crisis of conscience about? Was it that the fact that they were getting puber um hormones or puberty blockers in the first place? Was it the speed at which they were getting them? Was it And I know there's like a documentation and records issue, too, that you discovered. What created the crisis of conscience for you?

Yeah, there was a couple of things. Uh the first is You know, part of my role as a clinic nurse was um being there to assist providers throughout the clinic day with whatever they needed in in in terms of patient care. And in particular, one day I remember Dr. Roberts um asking me to to go inside of a patient room.

and instruct a patient on how to administer an intramuscular injection. Um and this was a course for him to do at home throughout the week. But what I didn't realize was that this intramuscular injection was estrogen and that he was going to be injecting himself with estrogen in order to affirm the false identity he had adopted for himself.

Um, so I was being asked to do things that were against my beliefs, not just as a person of faith, but as a nurse who actually follows the science that men and women are biologically distinct. um and that there is no amount of hormone or surgery that will ever medically erase

the that design. Um and so that was the first part is that I felt like I was being asked to do things against what I believed. Um and the second, to answer your question, the second part is I just saw that These children did not improve over time. They did not there was not a sense in which they went on this hormone and all of a sudden their confusion and the inner turmoil they were experiencing was relieved. Um, although I would say that at first

That is the case. They're very excited. They're very enthusiastic about the changes in their body that they're experimenting or they're experiencing. Um But long term, as time goes on, that quickly fades and they're still left with these mental and psychological struggles that they're dealing with. And that's that's not helped in the long term. Um, so yeah. Mm-hmm.

What happened with th there was some issues around how these procedures were being documented for insurance purposes. Can you talk a little bit about what you learned there?

Yeah, absolutely. Well in August to back up a little bit, in August of twenty twenty two. Um I wrote uh an op-ed and it was titled What Happened to Do No Harm, A Nurse's First Hand View of the Transgender Craze. And in this op ed I described my first hand knowledge and my view of what was happening.

um at the hospital I was employed at. I didn't list the hospital by name, but I did choose to use my name um with the piece. And um You know, it was one of those things where I was pointing out that medical professionals and clinicians

fearful at losing their lucrative jobs and their careers and you know, and they're not speaking out on what's being done to children in hospitals like like mine. And So I called that out and I was very direct and bold in how I kind of set up framed the issue of children being permanently harmed in the name of gender affirming care. And uh A year uh almost a year later in May of twenty twenty three. Um I was sitting at work and I Red.

an article from an anonymous whistleblower who had come forward to reveal that Texas Children's Hospital had secretly um hidden, have concealed the existence of their robust transgender program from the public and from lawmakers. And I really can

explain or put into words what that did for me. It was almost someone it's like you realize that you're not the only one with You know, with uh with strong beliefs surrounding this issue, uh, that children are being harmed and that someone else inside of this gargantuan medical institution has also, you know, courageously stepped forward to call it out. And uh

that was very empowering for me. Um and I think that speaks to the fact that um you know, there are many people inside of hospitals like nurses and and doctors and so many other um people in the workforce in the medical field. rightfully are concerned and that they do have objections. Um, but there's a lot of there's a there the hospital builds this culture of acceptance of Um accepting uh Children confused and affirming affirming that.

Um and I just want to speak to that very briefly. Um, you know, I was told by superiors at my job that I had to use a child's pronouns whenever they came to the clinic. Um there are yearly and bi-annual trainings on gender fluidity and defining the spectrum of. LGBTQ inclusion. Uh, and every every employee at the hospital has to undergo this. And I know that that's not unique. There are many, you know, corporate organizations that now do that, but

This was top priority for the hospital. It was very, very important. And so naturally that uh pressure that the hospital creates. makes it very difficult for people who have moral objections or any kind of objection to uh to come forward and without fear of retaliation or intimidation or consequence.

Um and so I d I definitely have a lot of sympathy and empathy for people that I work with who are like minded alongside me. Um but it's very difficult to to confront the nation's largest children's hospital uh on this issue because you you know that there will be repercussions and consequences and I believe that those those risks are worth it and they're worthwhile. Um, but there's definitely some some fear and hesitation there.

Can I can I ask almost like a devil's advocate question? Because I I'm curious and wondering about this.

So you come into this hospital, which you've described as the most one of and I'm from Houston by the way, and I know the Texas children's reputation. It is one of the most incredible places. People come from all over the world to bring their kids there if they need help with things. So You come into this setting, which you recognize it's like reputable, it's prestigious, they are a leader in pediatric medicine.

And I presume, correct me if I'm wrong, but you had not worked with like gender identity kids in the past, right? You hadn't actually worked in that population prior to Texas children? I I had always worked uh for the most part in pediatric medicine. Uh so I had some exposure, but not quite to this Okay. So I guess my question is like The response you had was something is wrong. Why didn't you instead say, Well, this is one of the best hospitals in the world?

This is what they're teaching us on gender. This must be correct. I have to learn from this prestigious provider that I work for now about trans kids. Was it really like more of a spiritual and faith-based objection? Like was there ever a part of you that said, well, this must be the right way if Texas Children's is, you know, suggesting these interventions? Yeah, that's a great question. You know, I think I think it is first of all for for you know it It's hard to believe.

for you know it was hard for me to what the hospital was doing for a time. It was hard to reconcile um the reality that you see every day in your work. um to the noise outside the hospital. And what I mean by that is for for a time I didn't even realize that the hospital had concealed their transgender program from the public.

Because I just you just go to work and you try to do the best you can and you don't really know the outside like perceptions or knowledge of what you do, at what's your daily reality, you know? Um, and so once I realized that the hospital was secretly, you know, providing transgender care to these children, that's when kind of I had this awakening. Like not that I didn't realize it was wrong or that I had objections before, but the fact that the hospital was lying to the public.

Um lying to lawmakers and parents. And that then our um state attorney general issued an opinion that any hospital who was providing transgender care could be investigated for child abuse. And I saw I read that in the news and then all of a sudden I go to work the next day and it's like, well no, like this is actually happening here, like what is going on? Um that was that set off some some real like red flags in my mind.

And did um did you find that other um you know, colleagues were speaking about it in the canteen or did you see what's going on? Did you see what the Attorney General said? Were people speaking about it at all, even in a very little way or or or behind closed doors?

There were a few coworkers of mine who were engaged with, you know, the news and politics and, you know, the the current events, if you will. Um, but many of them uh You know, they and I don't blame the I don't say this in a negative way, but they just are there to do their job and to work hard.

care for kids and so um there were a few of my coworkers who were like minded and we did discuss it and they were equally concerned. But like I said, there's a lot of um hush it's very hush hush and you're talking in a corner. Um don't wanna you don't wanna kind of alert other people that you may not know how they feel of your beliefs or what you feel. Um so it was a kind of a very delicate balance there.

So when you read this anonymous whistleblower account about Texas children's secretly well, I guess like hiding from the public that they were running this transgender program, you said it was incredibly empowering for you. What happened next? Yeah, so after that I uh came forward anonymously myself. um did not use my name but reached out to uh reporter Christopher Rufo. And a few days later.

Um I came forward to affirm what had already been reported by this anonymous whistleblower who we now know as Dr. Hein. At the time he was anonymous. At the time I had no idea who he was or who this person was. Uh but I knew that what he had done was very courageous and also very true. He had just reported the truth. And so I just thought, you know, I need to I need to come forward to affirm from the the perspective of a nurse working in a clinic with Dr. Robert.

the transgender provider, I need to affirm and I need to come behind him to affirm what what he's done, what he's What he's reported.

So that's exactly what I did. Um but the good news is is because of Dr. Heim's courage, um a few days later the Texas legislature voted to um and in essence uh gender affirming care in the state of Texas and that was uh a m a wonderful step forward and many you know uh Tech you know, Texas legislatures actually on the on the Democrat side, they flipped their votes because of the reporting of Dr. Haim.

Um and so that bill was signed passed and signed into law last September. But a few months later You know, I just went back to work. This was obviously um I had come forward anonymously, no one knew my name at work and I just went back to work thinking things would um eventually be shut down and that was I was very happy about that, but never thinking anything would come of it, of what I had done, of the actions I had taken.

Uh can I just ask really quick, when you did bl like blow the whistle to kind of confirm what Dr. Haim had been saying, what were some of the things that you disclosed or shared? Like what were some things on the ground that you described in your whistleblower account? Obviously you told us about Dr. Roberts providing these medical interventions to kids. Were there other things as well that you disclosed?

Yeah, there I mean the article is still live. It's not it's still up. Um it's uh published by the City Journal, but I just provided a different perspective of children coming in on an out to an outpatient clinic. to be seen by Dr. Roberts and kind of his approach, his treatment, um Like I said, I had a lot of interactions um at with their parents. So I I would see when parents would have questions, they would message the doctor and I would receive those messages and I would

um received those refill requests for the for the cross sex hormones. And so I I had a lot of um I had a lot of knowledge of what the internal workings were like. And so that's kind of the perspective I provided. Okay. Um and you were saying you didn't expect anything else to come of this because you went back to work, but something did come of it. What what happened?

Yes. Um, in July on July twenty fourth of twenty twenty three, uh, which was an a Monday evening, we were having dinner at home with my husband and some friends. and there was a knock on my front door and we go to open the door to discover that two federal agents are asking to speak with me about issues at my work. And the Department of Justice had mobilized two FBI agents.

They flashed their badges and uh said they were from the FBI and they asked to speak with me and this was uh an exchange that was captured on our ring camera um front ring camera and it's been seen now over six million times on X and so um what they what they asked was for my cooperation in an investigation targeting an anonymous whistleblower who had come forward and in their words had broken HIPAA.

and violent confidentiality laws. And I was a they said I was a person of interest because they knew what I believed. Which is a terrifying thing to hear from the government, that they're at your door because they're aware of your views against transgender medicine. And They um said that I uh that they could not keep me safe unless I cooperated with them. um that I was unsafe at my workplace, that someone had given them my name. They issued a series of very veiled threats.

All with the purpose of hoping to intimidate me into aiding their illegal investigation of a previous. whistleblower whose only crime was coming forward to speak the truth about what was going on inside the hospital. Um so that was last July. It was probably one of the most scary the scariest experience of my life. Um and we had my husband and I, you know, they left And it was one of those things where we looked at each other and we were like

You know, I thought I thought at one point the FBI were the good guys. Like they prosecute crime, they're hunting terrorists. Um but now they've somehow come to the home of a pediatric nurse. whose only crime was exposing the crime that was going on at the hospital. Like that was what I had done. And instead of investigating the hospital for the misuse, for the secrecy, uh, they were coming to my home and seeking to um recruit me.

So that's what that's those were the consequences for coming forward and Um, you know, in the months that followed I'm just so thankful that, you know, our We we really turn to our faith and to what the Bible says about exposing the evil th things that are done in the darkness.

That are done in secret. That's a passage in Ephesians, and that's one that really was the impetus to our decision to speak out. Because I think with anything, with any s situation or circumstance in life, where you feel these overwhelming feelings of fear and anxiety that just seem to be closing in and keeping you in a in a cage of fear.

I think that you have any person in that situation has a decision to make. You can either give in to those feelings of fear and anxiety, or you can redirect and say no and just completely redirect your thinking and your state of mind and yours and you decide to speak from a place of faith. Even though you don't know how things will end, even though this is a scary situation and you don't know the outcome, but for us we just realized that we couldn't make decisions from a place of fear.

And so that's where um we decided to speak out and we cited we decided to not ultimately give in to that. It's remarkable. Um was your

I mean, I'm sure meeting Aton has made a huge impact in this story as well, but were your family, friends, husband, like were they very supportive of your decision to do this? Was there any kind of back and forth about that?

Or was everyone like, Yes, we're we've we're behind you, Vanessa? Yeah, that's a great question. Um you know it's a it's a it's an odd thing to tell And i i it's a difficult thing to know who to tell about this kind of thing because You know, most people view the FBI in a favorable way, uh, because they were for Many, many gears they're the good guys, right? They're the people that you want fighting to defend American interests and um defending American citizens and all that. And that's

Unfortunately, that's just not the case anymore. They're being weaponized to come after people of faith, and I'm not the only example of that. I mean There's many examples in recent two or three years where they like stormed the home of a Pennsylvania father of seven who was only crime was to pray outside of an abortion facility.

and they took him away um in front of his family for that. So I'm not the only person um who's been targeted and so We did tell a select few number of, you know, very close family, very close friends. Um but it's a it it's a very um sensitive thing that I think we just kind of try we we did call an attorney, uh we got some really good advice, but other than that we kind of kept it really close.

It's extraordinary. You know before they they knocked at the door, the FBI came and knocked at the door, it sounds like it came almost out of the blue. It sounds like you kinda thought you were back in work and you were through. You had you'd said your piece and it it was Oh you you know, you're pro you were protected from the whistle blowing charter that most people presume is a protective um uh plan for anybody who does blow the whistle but

D did you get any indication that you weren't protected as a whistle blower and did it come out of the blue the FBI or were you and your partner kinda waiting for something's gonna come off there? Something's gonna happen? No, no, no, we it was a it was a I mean we we didn't sleep for a week after they le I mean it was it's one of these experiences in life that just rattles you and you feel like, you know, the sanctuary and the safe place of your home that your home is supposed to be.

is vi is now violated and you you become very paranoid uh about everything. Um and that didn't last forever, of course, but it was temporary, but it was still um an experience that I'll never I'll never forget what that felt like. And so no I did not. In fact I I came forward anonymously and like I said, two or three days later the legislature voted to um to to end gender affair. So in my view this was about to end. I could then go back to work with a clean conscience. Um

And this was a huge win. So I was looking towards the future. I was not in any way expecting uh the government to come after me. That sounds Soviet-like. This is such a fascinating conversation. You know, listeners often tell us they feel frustrated by the lack of nuance around this issue, and they feel afraid to speak their minds. And they ask us how they can help to bring more clarity to this difficult topic at their workplace, in their kids' schools, or with their own friends and family.

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What happened with the insurance billing? Because I actually think this is such an important key piece that most people do not understand and and and I I have some kind of things I'd love to get your thoughts on regarding that. But explain to us what you discovered about the kind of fraudulent I think it was Medicaid insurance uh documentation. Tell us. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Um the the state of Texas in twenty fifteen, um under their Texas Medicaid policy.

absolutely and unequivocally prohibited coverage of cross-sex hormones and puberty blockers for gender uh the the the di the you know the umbrella of gender affirming care treatment. And this is completely separate from the law that our governor signed last year. So this this policy has been in place for almost ten years now. And there is absolutely no doubt that the hospital was using Medicaid. Um Medicaid, STAR or CHIP, which are federally funded insurance programs.

to uh get reimbursement for cross sex hormones and puberty blockers. And it seems like it seems like such a far fetched uh concept at the hospital would knowingly and intentionally not conceal the fact on a child's medical record that Medicaid is listed on the chart. And you have minors and children who are in the process of transitioning to the opposite sex. Who have these insurances and they're on testosterone and estrogen type therapies. And so that's exactly what I saw is.

Th there was just no denying that the hospital was using these insurance programs to cover these treatments. And that was against state law. And that's the first example. The second example is Um not only were they using Medicaid, but they also were intentionally misdiagnosing patient for the purpose of justifying those hormones. And that's also illegal.

Okay. That I think that's important and I and I this will kind of bring us into what I wanted to ask you about. I remember, Stella, you'll probably remember this too. It was a couple of years ago there was a kind of a story came out that A lot of gender affirming care doctors, in order to get insurance to cover procedures, were claiming that female patients were trans males with some sort of a chest deformity.

And they were getting reconstructive surgery in order to remove the breasts of little girls. Like I remember when I learned that, I was like my brain just melted in my head. So I think it's important to point out you're not because my first question to you, Vanessa, was like, well then why would they be getting reimbursed for it if it's actually against the policy? But it's the diagnosis, the the switching of the diagnosis. That's like diagnostic fraud.

So that they will get the reimbursements because the state doesn't understand what the treatment really is and who the patient really is. I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but like i that's were you seeing that kind of thing happen? Yes, and let me let me kind of unpack that a little bit. So first of all, at Texas Children's Hospital, on the medical chart, the bio the sex listed on the medical chart is not their biological sex.

If the child is uh identifies as the opposite sex, that preferred, you know, um false identity that the child has claimed is the the biological sex listed on their chart. Oh my God. That's worse than I even understood. Okay, keep going. So so when uh for example, so I in my everyday work, um, I would just go into a patient's chart.

And thinking that they were a male, right?'Cause that's what's listed. And then you start to dig a little bit,'cause you start to see some discrepancies and like, oh, maybe they're seen by the endocrine clinic. Oh, they've Um they've gone to the ER for suicide attempt. Oh what's going on here? And so and then in the in the doctor notes, they s they they start the medical note. saying this child identifies as X, so for the remainder of my documentation, I'm going to refer to them as such.

And that's when you realize that they're lying. They're it's it's so from a purely objective point of view, that's so unsafe. It's so updated. Wow. Um in this example, I just want to make sure it's listed as male. But actually, this is a biological female patient. So the chart would have said this patient identifies as male, that and basically goes on to say this is why it says male throughout the rest of this chart. But it's a biologically female child.

Yes. Yes. And so when so then to add to that, when the transgender doctor says That this uh that misdiagnoses um a male, let's say a biological male, because this is what I saw, a biological male was said to have an estrogen deficiency. It's really right. So that's like double that's like double fraud because you're lying about their sex.

And then you're lying about what they what their diagnosis is on top of that. And so it's just this web fusion in a clinician's mind that they have to wade through the What is really going on with this patient? So it's unsafe. It's completely unsafe medical care. And that I mean I could go on with other false diagnoses that I saw. Uh please go ahead. a uh a a m a biological male was said to have um

Hypogonadism, which is an underproduction or an underdevelopment of the sexual hormones in a biological male. And so that then justifies the prescription of estrogen or anything else because if they're under producing uh sexual hormones then the doctor can then justify prescribing the hormone. So hypogonadism, hyperandrogenism was an un was another one. Is it the overproduction of the sexual hormones?

Um and so that then of course justifies the prescription of a puberty blocker to block those hormones from being produced. So it's it's egregiously wrong. Egregious wrong. So they're calling normal levels of a hormonal composition in a person a disease. Yes. And then using that disease state to justify the intervention and the billing for the intervention.

Yes. And the the important also the the important thing to note to note that here is that and I learned this, is that it's not the insurance Medicaid similar They don't like verify. They don't have a system in place where they verify to make sure that this is correct before reimbursing. Um and why would they? If the if the diagnosis if the gender is or the sex is incorrect, right? And then the diagnosis is also kind of comes from the incorrect.

assignment of the biological sex, then on paper it's very difficult to determine if this is uh if this is legal or not. Um but it's very that's very illegal. So I I I mean, as I hear you talk, I I find this to be so remarkable because even in some of the most kind of gender-affirming clinics. They're documenting the biological sex accurately much of the time, as far as I can tell.

So this practice of mis mislabeling the biological sex is just like a fundamental starting point, which leads to absolute chaos. I mean, I don't even understand How a medical provider could even assess for things in the child. health if they're documenting the sex wrong. I mean it's it's so I don't know. I don't even know what I'm saying. It's just so patently insane. I don't even know what to say about it.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean I just think of like life or death situations in which a child might come into the ER and a doctor is furiously trying to prescribe a medication to save their life. Let's say they've been in a an accident, a car accident. And the sex is listed on the chart as the prefer as the preferred gender identity of the child. Like, can we just imagine for a moment the harm that could ensue if the provider was not thorough and realizing that the sex on the chart is false?

Like it so unsafe. Yeah. Wow. I just can't believe that there wasn't more people up in arms because When there must have been quite a few people who went through the documentation of, you know, this child has come in uh biological male that I can see. And I have to process this and it's uh it's down as a female with, you know a disease that has kind of been fabricated because we're now calling this male a female.

I I just can't understand how there h isn't droves of of of objection to this, just from ordinary workers in the hospital who were processing it. I know. I I you know I feel the same way, but there's such a It's so if I mean it's hard to describe the culture in modern American hospitals. It's really it there's a lot of group think. And it's difficult for the people who have true like I'll just I'll just say it like this.

You know, COVID brought out a lot, uh showed a lot in the medical community. And what that did was it silenced and canceled the voices who were asking questions during COVID. Um they were deplatformed. Um they were censored. No one was free truly, truly free, um, without fear of termination, retaliation or anything, to come forward with logical questions about treatments, about vaccines. about um i any anything about that.

And so that's exactly what has carried over into what we now see in transgender medicine and mod modern hospitals, is that there is it's very difficult because of the precedent that was set during COVID. for people with objections to come forward with actual good questions um relating what this is doing to children.

You know, I've I've heard that argument made before and I'm sure there is truth to it. I'm sure the whole COVID situation maybe exacerbated that group think and the silencing, but I have to tell you, you know My one of my origin stories I've turned told on the show before is when I was working in this middle school. And seeing a lot of it was around twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen.

And I was seeing a lot of kids in my I had started like a GSA Gay Straight Alliance Club and a lot of the kids in there were expressing a lot of confusion about gender identity. And so I started doing some research on you know, it wasn't named yet, but R O G D and like all of these sudden trans announcements. And I started really becoming very concerned about the issue. And I was compiling all this data and information and I was regularly taking it to my supervisor.

Because she was bringing in trainers to train us on gender identity stuff that were probably similar to what you described, Vanessa, like, yay, gender fluidity and just accept a kid's pronoun announcement and I was like, wait a minute, no. And so I was bringing my supervisor all of this information. And I was becoming very knowledgeable. And you know, I'll never forget, she said to me. And she was a really smart, thoughtful woman. She said, You know, Sasha

This stuff with gender is just moving so fast and it's so confusing that I really don't feel like I have any authority to say yes or no to anything. So we just have to trust the experts. And for me that was a light bulb moment where I was like Nobody's gonna listen to me unless I become an expert in this. And I can just imagine like putting myself in the shoes of a nurse or a physician in your hospital.

They're working in like the gender unit now or like with this gender doctor and they're looking at the chart and they're like, what the heck? But you know what? This gender stuff is so confusing and it's moving so fast. Maybe there's a good reason this patient's listed as male. Like I can imagine people thinking that.

Uh uh that's why I kinda asked you, did you ever have a moment where you said, Well, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I need to take cues from this like gender fluidity training or whatever. So it's very interesting how feel like something is wrong, they trust their instinct about it rather than deferring to the gender endocrinologist or rather than deferring to the training. And Stella and I always ask people like

Why you? And it seems like for you a big part of it had to do with your your spiritual beliefs or your faith. But to be honest, I mean Faith aside, like you know, divine creation aside, these medications have been shown to have serious consequences. There's no good evidence behind them, even the theoretical foundation of gender identity doesn't make sense. So You know, faith or not, like do you think that even if you weren't a person of faith you would have had qualms with this?

I I wonder about that. Yes. No, I I do think you're you have you make a very great point. I think that aside from a person being religious or being a person of faith, I think that when we talk about following the science, that that has to mean something for medical professionals and doctors and nurses, that we have to affirm biological truth. And

That may mean going up against, you know, the experts and I know, I just wanna say one thing. Like there were But during co during the COVID era, there were many experts who greatly misled the public. They made really um horrific decisions.

And at the time we we we believed them, you know, we trusted their their insight and their knowledge. So I think that, you know, that again, that kind of set the precedent for kind of developing this inner fortitude to question the narrative and to question um you know, the experts, if you will, and just developing this um this resilience to like come forward and to speak what I what I what I know and what many other people

believe is true. Um and so I will say that courage is contagious. And so I came forward ultimately because of the courage of Dr. Haim. Um and so what ended up happening is in June, just a couple months ago I came forward with the with the evidence of the Medicaid fraud. Um I Came forward with my face and my identity and I worked with Christopher Rufo.

to kind of reveal what had been going on at the hospital as it relates to the misuse of funds, um, as it res ultimately relates to breaking Texas law and and using taxpayer dollars to cover these treatments. Uh and the hospital immediately uh placed me uh under investigation. I was placed on leave. And on August sixteenth, just a couple of weeks ago, I was officially fired by the hospital. Oh my god. I I knew that this could happen. I knew that this was a fortunately.

Um but I had a lot of hope that the hospital would actually do the right thing um and would uh you know, investigate uh use a third party, an outside agency, to investigate what I had come forward to expose.

And instead of doing that, um the other the other side of this is that I had also submitted a request for a religious accommodation. So that was submitted to me. And I requested a very what I thought was a very simple, manageable thing, which was to transfer f out of the uh endocrinology clinic where I was into a different department, um, so that I would no longer have any exposure to anything relating to gender affirming medicine. That was the minute I just said that.

my my faith, you know, is prompting me to request this change. And I explained what that was. And they ignored my request, which is a violation of Title seven. Title seven protects employees in the United States from religious discrimination based on their beliefs. And they they violated that when they ignored my request. And so So I was ultimately like they terminated my employment just a couple of weeks ago. Oh.

I I mean I've I have lots of questions about that. Does Title Seven protect employees who want to, let's say, opt out of a specific work duty? Like'cause I don't know much about Title Seven, but You were basically saying because of my, you know, religious conviction, I would like to be transferred to a different department. Is that the type of protection that Title Seven typically offers, or is Title Seven more about

You can't be fired because of your belief, or you can't be s you know, not hired because of your belief. Like explain a little more about Title VII, as far as you know. Yes, I have a limited understanding, but I'll I'll just Um title seven relates to hiring, firing, or internal promotions and internal transfers. So it's a protection for those four areas very clearly outlined under the Civil Rights Act. And this is again, this is something that it protects from

So I I think that the that my getting fired was retaliation for coming forward as a ri whistleblower, um, which is also illegal. So they've really law in two ways. Um, and that's something that I um I've retained attorneys as a result officially and uh I'm looking to challenge this decision in court because I do feel like it was a wrongful termination. Um and so I've set up a a give send go to raise funds for that for my legal defense.

We know a lot of people who listen are, you know, wondering about this situation and they're n they're not necessarily critical of anything, but they're they're they're certainly questioning. uh the phenomenon. And I often wonder like, g you know, can we speak to them or would you have any words to say to somebody a around the world, because it's happening around the world, who's thinking of speaking out?

have you you know, have you any tips that you learned along the way, what to do, what not to do, or Is it better,'cause I sometimes think it is, to be you know, to to speak out, i is it more distressing not to speak out? I'd imagine there's a lot of turmoil that goes on before you speak out. Yes, I wanna make sure to answer that um completely. So if I miss something, please just remind me. Um I like I said before, I have a lot of compassion.

uh and empathy for medical professionals who are working in a in an environment that is hostile to their beliefs. Not just their beliefs, but in hostile to taking and caring for children and and not harming them, right? From an objective point of view. Um I I know exactly what that feels like. It feels overwhelming. It feels like you're alone. Um, you feel outnumbered and insecure and you don't know what to do because it's you against this.

giant medical institution. So I I remember very well the fears and the questions that I had. Um but I I'll just say a couple of things. Number one, um familiarize yourself with the laws in your state or the policies that um that the hospital has to abide by. Um and that's that's that's very important to kind of get get an idea of of uh what the po what the hospital has to abide by. Um the second thing is there are you know, met there are um Uh there are groups.

um nonprofit groups all over the United States that help in situations like mine. There's attorneys groups and pro bono um legal um assistants. that I think would be an invaluable help for someone who isn't familiar with the protections they have. with the rights they have as an employee, as a citizen, you know, I I think that's very important to tap into those resources.

Um and to kind of empower yourself with that knowledge of what is legal and what is not by a an attorney who is like minded. I think that's very important. Um and I was gonna say one more thing. Uh oh, the third thing is util utilize um you know, this is might be a little controversial, but I I think that the press, there is like minded press that is on your side, that is willing to amplify the stories of everyday people.

who are working in everyday jobs but they see that something illegal is going on. Um, I think that the press gets a lot of hate and um but I think that you have to find the journalist or the reporter that has integrity, that has um, you know, that is like minded with you, um, and investigate them, I would say make sure that you have investigated this person at length before you reach out.

Um and obviously only do that after you've gained the advice of an attorney. I think that's very important. Um and so those are just a few things that I think if I were to to say to myself, you know, months or years, you know, before this point, I would have maybe done those things a little bit better. I would have empowered myself a little bit more.

Well in fairness, you you've done very, very well. You've been very, very brave and really admirable in in what you did. Especially I I I gather you must be very young. Um, it it took a lot of courage. It's it's really commandable. I'm thirty one. Only a chicken. Yeah, and you know, we we also just spoke with somebody from the LGBT Courage Coalition, which is similarly like a a group that helps support whistleblowing efforts and

I'm also aware that there's, you know, DIAG, which is like a democratic group that is standing up against pediatric gender medicine. So what I think is really interesting about this subject. And maybe we'll touch on this in the extended conversation. In America it tends to be quite polarized. But in fact, regular people, regardless of their political or spiritual beliefs,

Yes. Sense intuitively that there's something really damaging about this kind of medical practice with children. So I I just really appreciate your uh willingness to tell your story and to talk with us today and we'll be sure to include your um your funding uh website. It's called the give send go, I think is what you said. Tell us a little bit about that and then we'll shift into the other conversation.

Sure. Yeah, I set up a it's a crowd funded um uh uh Give Send Go. So it's similar to GoFundMe. Um and I'm fundraising for my legal defense because I believe I was wrongfully terminated. Um but legal fees are very expensive and I've just lost my job. So I am so grateful for the public support. For sure. Well, thank you so much, Vanessa. It was amazing to talk to you. Thank you for having me. Thank you.

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