161 - The Unlikely Whistleblower with Tamara Pietzke

Hi. Hello Sasha, how's it going? I'm fine, Stella, how are you? I'm good, I'm good. This was a lovely episode, a very kind of inspiring episode. Yeah. We talked to Tamra Pitzky, who we kind of think about as an unlikely whistleblower. As you'll hear her in the episode, she said, My friends laugh.

when they discovered that I was in this position because they thought I was the least likely person to become a whistleblower. And frankly Tamara didn't even know the term whistleblower until somebody used it about her. So she is as you'll hear she's

Very soft-spoken, she's thoughtful, she's very sweet. And when she was working at this clinic called Multicare, She started seeing things that really concerned her around very complicated young people with serious trauma, serious abuse in their background, with very dehumanizing identities. We're not just talking about your typical kind of I'm a trans guy and I'm proud kind of situation. We're talking about really complicated, bizarre identities like animal identities and things like that.

And when she spoke up about her concerns She was really shut down at every kind of step of the way by colleagues, by managers, higher up. And so, you know, in launched her experience of trying to speak out and quote, blow the whistle. And it was lovely to speak with her today.

Yeah, I think a key part of the of the Tamar Pitsky story is the fact that she is a gentle, soft spoken, moderate um person who who has no need not standing on any soapbox. no major need to come on podcasts or radios to to to to give her opinions. Doesn't actually have strong opinions I'd say often in life. If you follow me, one of life's moderates in in in every aspect of the word.

And I think that speaks to what insanity is arguably going on. That she she could see that this is not right, that they are extremists and extremists had taken over the workplace. and her moderate opinion, she actually had to be forced out of the workplace because she was a moderate. I think that in itself, the moderates are getting pushed out, the extremists are holding the centre. Is such a frightening kind of vision of what's going on in therapy today.

Yeah, and you know, um when when I read the so so her story came out in the free press, which is Barry Weiss's uh sub stack in twenty twenty four, February this year. And when I read that story and also Lior Sapir covered it more, so we we'll definitely link to these other articles because we don't go into ton of details in our interview today, but I highly recommend for listeners to go

read these reports because the kinds of cases she was seeing were shocking. Like remember when we had Jamie Reed on and she told us a couple of stories and in her affidavit there's these like unbelievable stories of severely disturbed kids being affirmed in their gender identities. It was a similar kind of thing that happened with Tamara. So the Free Press article came out and then soon after she switched positions

and was fired from her new job. Ostensibly w you know, the f employer didn't say so precisely, but as as Tamra shares in her story, probably because of the kind of coverage she was getting it as a whistleblower. And she's now in this kind of place of limbo. Um, and we really just wanted to give her a platform to share her story. And there's so much here that is quite terrifying. And, you know, she says towards the end.

I believe that my future self will be really proud of me now, even though I've made my life hell in some ways. I really think this is the right thing to do. So I I think it's just wonderful to have people like Tamara who are willing to go through that kind of gauntlet of you know, throwing your life into disarray because you want to do the right thing. Just it seems so obviously the right thing for her to do, as you'll you'll hear.

And it was. When you hear it, I think very few will listen and think she did anything except the right thing. She did the right thing. More importantly she had the courage to do the right thing and stick with it and put her name to it. Do you want to go ahead and read her bio? Sure. Yeah. Tamara Pitsky is a mental health therapist, a licensed independent clinical social worker, and has been doing this work for twelve years.

She worked a number of different places, but most recently she was working at multi care, one of Washington state's largest hospital systems for six years. When she raised concerns about the shift towards mandated gender affirming care, she was bullied and dismissed. She stopped working there in January of twenty twenty four and a couple of weeks before her whistleblowing article came out in the free press.

From multi care she went on to a different practice, but they let her go after three weeks, claiming that she wasn't a right fit for the position, but not offering much more explanation. She has since been working on building up a private practice, and we talk with Tamara a little bit about that today. So please enjoy our conversation with Tamara Pitsky. Hi, I'm Stella O'Malley, a psychotherapist in Ireland. And I'm Sasha Ayad, an adolescent therapist in the United States.

This is Gender a Wider Lens, a podcast dedicated to the shifting concepts around gender in our country. personal stories, and psychological exploration. open up the discourse around this hot button issue. Join us as we look at gender from a wider level.

Hi Stella and welcome Tamara. Hi, thank you for having me. You're very welcome. We're delighted to have you. Um your yet another whistleblower has arrived and it's it's so inspiring when somebody chooses to speak up against when they see harm being carried out on children. So well done. Thank you. And you've really paid the price for

for speaking out in the first place. And we'll get to that in a minute. But for anyone who isn't familiar with your story, there was a big piece that came out in the free press several weeks ago now that told our listeners a little bit about What you saw at your presentation? at your place of employment working with children who were struggling with gender identity so

Can you give us a bit of an overview of what you saw and what you witnessed? And then of course we'll make sure to direct people to the free press article, which is like more of an in depth look. Sure, yeah, absolutely. So um the first time that I started to have some concerns was in um March of last year. I had a client come in a 16-year-old and say that um they identified as a wounded male dog. And so then I talked with my colleagues about that and I said,

At what point do we not just like affirm people? What at what point is it like mental illness? Like I just feel like at some point we have to be like Okay, you're so traumatized by being a human that like now you're uh you want to identify as an animal?

And the response from my boss, from my colleagues was, if they don't think it's a problem, then it's not a problem. Like then you say you applaud them for knowing who they are and you just continue to do therapy about the things that they are saying are an issue. And

Can I just ask you a quick question? First of all, that is already totally, totally remarkable. It is blew my mind. It in in in private conversations with other clinicians, whether we're doing like peer consultations or kind of, you know, discussing cases. I have never heard anyone say something so absurd. So I I'm wondering was this one of those things where where the the clinician said,

You know, I I actually do have concerns about this kid too. However, on the surface we have to be affirming like because that's already really strange. No, it wasn't. It was Go ahead, were you gonna say something, Stella? C yeah, I'm gonna a add something. To agree with a person who says that they uh identify as a wounded male dog is to collude with the dehumanising dehumanisation of a person. If you follow me. A child actually of a child specific.

And that's that's a fundamental harm to to to a ch to a human, to a child, to a ch to a human. And that's where we have to bring our humanity. into the counselling process. That that we've learnt that from our history. We've learned that that to dehumanize people is a really dangerous thing to collude with. If somebody is saying, I don't feel human and you agree with them

you're you're actively participating in harm, is what I'm saying. Already. In in other places people have, you know, dehumanized people as vermin, they've dehumanized people as and it's it's been written about and there's there's a lot of scholarship around this. It's a really

harmful thing to do to any other human. Anyway, keep going. You just blew our mind with that first lap. Yeah, I mean I even it was a dialogue between me and my colleagues. I said, okay, so what if this client identifies as a cat and wants to use a litter box. They're like, not a problem. I said, what if it's a grown man who identifies as an eleven year old and wants to hang out with kids and they said

Well, you know, as long as he's not alone with them, if he wants to use coloring books, then that's not a problem. And I like w this was like the dialogue and I was like

Oh my c okay. And I just didn't really know what to do with that. And so I just dropped it and kind of like carried on with seeing my client and just doing therapy with them. And eventually like the topic of wounded male dog kind of faded away. Um they still identified as a male um and they are biological female, but we just did therapy around the other issues that were going on in their life.

And the setting where you worked, was it just a general counseling practice for adolescents? Were you s in a hospital? Like what was the place like? And I guess Were they a a gender clinic or tell us about a little bit about the placement where you are working? Sure. So I worked for multicare. It is a hospital system.

But I wasn't in the hospital portion of the building. So um it was just an outpatient counseling center. And then a lot of my clients who I was seeing, um, I saw all ages, all presenting issues. Um, but then the ones who were youth who came in and were expressing um gender distress, they did go to the gender clinic, the pediatric gender clinic at multicare. So I wasn't affiliated with that, but I could see the notes because we're all in the same system.

And so the the colleagues you mentioned and your supervisor that you mentioned, were they part of the gender clinic or they were in your department? Your superpartment. Okay. Okay, so So you're you're asking qu these now you're asking these hypothetical questions, like, well, what if someone identifies as a cat? What if a grown man identifies as a child?

And you're getting similar answers that are basically no harm, no foul, as long as the person declares the identity, kind of like what you touched on, Stella. I think it's well accepted that we shouldn't dehumanize others, but if a person's dehumanizing him or herself Or let's say claiming a different identity according to multicare That's fine. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So

So at that point did you just say, Okay, let me get back in line. Maybe I need to do some more reading. Maybe I don't understand something, or did you realize like something is severely wrong here pretty early on? I just kind of filed away it away in the back of my brain and was like

'cause the response just blew my mind and I didn't was like, I don't even know how to process this or what to do with it. So I'm just gonna keep doing my job and just like keep that in the back of my mind that this conversation happened. Did you go and to did you speak about it with your your your let's say your good friends or your colleagues or your partner saying, Do you know what happened to me at work today? Yeah or did you almost Oh you did? Yeah, like to my my best friend I was like

Is that am I crazy here? Like, isn't that something that would be considered like we need to deal with this as mental illness and not as something that we're celebrating? And and my friends were like, Yeah, absolutely. But Okay. So so you file it away, you keep doing your work, pick pick the story up, then what?

Yeah. And so then I just kept seeing people and my clients who came in and were experiencing gender distress. Um, I didn't do anything different with them, so it wasn't really an issue that I felt like I had to investigate or like um, do a lot of research on it was the same as like anything for me, like anxiety, depression.

Um, and I just assumed that if they were seeing the gender clinic that the gender clinic was doing their job. Like I didn't feel like that was something I had to look into any more than I would look into like what their neurologist is doing. Like I just trusted that. And then in September um we got uh we were told that there was gonna be a mandatory gender affirming care training. And um the fact that it was mandatory was like just

startling to me. Like I don't even know the ex how to explain it. I just was like, something is wrong here. And I didn't even know what gender affirming care was. So I know that makes me sound completely ignorant, but I just wasn't in this world.

And so um it was Labor Day weekend before the training and I spent hours and hours after I put my kids to bed just like doing research and I was like I would Google like what are the what are the negative side effects of like um hormone treatment in adolescence and then the results that I was getting would be like

how to be a good friend to your LGBTQ like colleague or whatever. And I was like, that's not even what I asked. And so it just like really blew my mind that I couldn't even find direct answers. Um, so yeah, a lot of I did a lot of investigating and I wrote a letter because I was just gonna refuse to go to the training. I was like, I don't agree with this and I cannot be a part of it.

Um, and so I wrote a letter and then I reached out to every single person that I found online, like anyone who wrote an article about it, anyone who like had an organization. about this topic and I said, Will you look at this letter and will you please tell me if I'm missing something here? Because I'm gonna lose my job over this if I don't go to a mandatory training and I just wanna make sure that like I am not being misled here. Yeah.

And so um people wrote back and uh were very like congratulations for like seeing through this and not just going along with it. And then I was advised to go to the training. They said if you don't go

Then you're gonna render yourself irrelevant, you're gonna get fired, and then you lose any power you possibly could have in this situation. So go and then ask the questions about these things that you wrote in your letter. Because you're not wrong. Like these things are important to address. So just Gently, kindly, without like trying to be controversial or like um antagonistic, ask these questions and um so that's what I did and it was

Terrifying. I could see my heartbeat in my stomach. That was so terrifying. Um And were were lots of trainings mandatory? Like why did it strike you that it was mandatory? So this was the first time so they used to offer like, oh, we're gonna have a workshop on substance abuse if you wanna check it out. Like they were optional prior to this. Yes, absolutely. Okay.

So these these like monthly trainings were recently r introduced, but we were told they're not mandatory. If you can fit'em into your schedule, go ahead. And if not, you don't have to go.

And so then when it said that it was mandatory and it was I was like, mm mm, that doesn't feel good to me. I can I ask you said that you didn't know a gender affirmative care and and fairness I think a lot of people don't. I don't think it's a reflection. I think they're working it but they don't know that they're working it.

But then you knew enough to look for issues with it, if you follow me. Was it purely the fact that it was so incongruous that it was mandatory that made you go, hang on, what's going on here? Yeah. Yeah, and I I sort of had this

suspicion th that it was gonna be like you just agree with whatever they say just like the wounded dog thing, right? And and so in the back of my mind I was like, is that what this is? Is that what they're gonna tell us that we have to do? And so that's why I started to like dig into it. So you are kind of primed to have a little suspicion about the push to just uh blindly agree, blindly agree. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so then I went to the training and then I asked a couple questions. Like one of them was, okay, so if countries in Europe are pulling back on this, why are we mandating it now? Why are we like running full steam ahead in this. Um and I was met with so much hostility. The Um the chat box blew up and said, You're doing harm to people, keep politics out of this, you're part of the problem. Um, the presenter was like, We're not gonna have this conversation. I wanna make it very clear.

that this is best practice for multicare and anything else will not be tolerated.

Can I ask, was this an online training? Is that what you mean by ch Okay, I I wanna just p like pause and talk about something that I've experienced because I went through a very similar situation in twenty fifteen when I was working in a middle school. Oh really? And I had been tracking the gender stuff for about a year or so. Maybe this was 2015, 2016.

And I was presenting my concerns to my manager. I worked for a school and there were like 13 campuses, and I presented my concerns to my manager, and what she told me at the time was. You know, Sasha, the pace of change is so rapid that I I can't even keep up with the LGBT stuff. So that's why we have to just defer to the experts.

And lo and behold, a few months later, we had a mandatory training for all of our staff, which in our case that was normal. There were lots of mandatory trainings about trans stuff. And I in this case the training was in person and so all the school counselors from the thirteen different campuses were gathered together in one room.

And somebody from an advocacy organization came in and gave us basically what is an affirmative care training. And I had the the I guess I was lucky that it was in person. And so when I was asking questions in person Oh sh the the way it was received was super different. And so like I know from just following this world that when you're online People are so much more hostile.

And if you put a question in the chat box that you had asked in person in a room full of flesh and blood people, I almost guarantee like it would have landed differently. So I just think it's particularly important that we lift up. Like this happened to Aaron Terrell, who's a transgender man who went to the WPATH conference online and he was also like kicked out of a chat room. So

I just feel like the in-person versus online thing makes it even more complicated. So I I'm so sorry to kind of like derail the story, but I just it's a remarkable similarity. And yet your experience was totally different. Yeah. So initially when I started asking questions, I would just unmute myself and ask them verbally because I felt like You know.

that was the best way to make myself heard and then people would like respond in the chat box and then the presenter was like, I'm not gonna keep doing this. I'm not gonna keep answering your questions. And so then I would just put the questions in the chat box directly and then it was like She said, I wanna make it very clear we're not doing this. So like what's happening in the chat box needs to stop. Like this is best practice. She just like shut me down basically.

And did you have anybody allying with you saying, Well, I I want to ask that too? In the moment, no. So um afterwards my boss um messaged me and was like, you know, I just wanna make it clear that Um, I think that you mean well, but that was not the correct forum to ask those questions. So then when would be, right? Like behind closed doors where no one else can be made aware of these concerns. Like um

Yeah. So then she was like, I just wanted to let you know that that was not the correct forum to do it. Um and I had four four four people reach out to me afterwards and like email and just said like

I you didn't say anything wrong in the training. You weren't being political. Like we have these same concerns. Thank you so much for speaking up. We saw how you were treated and now none of us wanna say anything. So You I had four so there was a hundred and twenty two people in the meeting and four people reached out afterwards, but no one in the moment was able to come to my defense because who would want to s jump in and be part of that attack, you know?

Oh I would sell what I would too. Okay. So i that sent you a very, very clear message about how questions and concerns are received. And absolutely Tell us what happened next. So people people privately email you and say, You weren't wrong, but I would never have your back publicly, like that kind of thing. Yeah. Then what? Um and so then I just kept kind of like

I followed up with the about the training and I said, I just wanna get these, you know, ask these questions and I'm recording everything, right? Like anything that I get back in email, I'm keeping a record of it. So I um

ask these questions like, hey, I just wanted to get direct answers about this. And so there's like this email dialogue going on for a while and um I'm told basically that I don't know what I'm talking about, that I need to check my biases, that we're not gonna agree on this topic. Um

And so that's kind of where things were for a while, just like this back and forth dialogue where none of my concerns were actually specifically addressed or else they were just like minimized. At no point did anyone say Um and I'm writing the my boss and the um the training person, like I'm including both of them. My boss never responded, but the person who did the training kept, you know, responding and at no point did she say

Can you show me what you're reading? Let's look at this together. Let's like I mean, even to be like even to be like you're wrong like she had never asked for anything to t like where where are you getting your information? Let's have a conversation about this. It was just shutting me down and making me feel like I'm A transphobe, right? So

Um that's kind of That's so telling. That's so telling. Yeah. You know what I mean? If somebody came to me with new information and completely negated what I've got to say. Your immediate response is where did you hear that? Let me see this. What let me read it. Let me have a look. It's it's so telling that they just went close doors, button on the hatches, stop speaking.

Uh was the trainer a colleague of yours or was this somebody brought in from an outside organization? Like what was the relationship of the trainer who did that presentation? Yeah, she also worked for multicare. She worked for a different area of multicare, so I did not ever meet her in person, um, or interact with her. But she, um, I found out after the training was being promoted to like manager of the new gender clinic they were opening in Olympia. So

They um and my boss was like, I want you to know that this person is an expert in this area. So what if she's saying something to you, then you basically need to defer to that because this this is where she this is her expertise. That's a common theme, right? We have to defer to the experts. And the experts are the people who only hold one particular view and frankly ignore all of the evidence. So that's kind of interesting. Okay, so then then what?

So then I had a thirteen year old child come in and this child was not super verbal. They were on the autism spectrum. Um while we were talking, they would just like show me quickly scroll through videos on their phone um of like anime horror and like sexually graphic materials.

Uh to to show you? Yeah, like they wouldn't they couldn't barely talk to me, but they would just like stand by my desk and sh like scroll through and say like this was their hyperfixation is what they said and that Um they related to these like wounded, like bloody faced, like just all this stuff and

I only met with them three times and I at one point did a consult with somebody'cause I was like, I don't want to be exposed to this. This isn't productive. Like I don't think we're doing therapy here. Um, but I never was able to kind of like work through that with them because Well, I'll get to why. But um so they were had this extensive trauma history. They weren't really very verbal. Um And then the dad Expressed that it was

So the client went to the gender clinic. When I asked the client, I said, Hey, I see that you haven't because I now I'm like curious and I'm a little bit suspicious of the gender clinic. So I said, I see you have a gender clinic appointment coming up. The kid didn't even know. Had no idea that they had an appointment. I said, How do you feel about that? They're like

I don't know. And then they just moved on scrolling on their phone. And so then I talked to Dad and he expressed that the gender clinic, after their first appointment, was ready to get a letter from me um to allow the kid to start taking testosterone. Um a female child. Yes, a female child, thirteen year old. With like so many like you can read about it like you mentioned in the free press article. There's so much going on here. It was heartbreaking. Yeah. Severe developmental delay.

Yeah, just yeah. Um

Yeah, so then when I was reading through the gender clinic note, uh the they weren't quoting the child, but they were saying this is what the child is saying and this and I'm like, There's no way this child who can barely talk is communicating so clearly with you about wanting to become a male. Um so I d

And so then I asked my boss about that too and she's like, You have to trust that they know what they're doing, the the process for this is so extensive, like they're you know, just kind of like minimize my concerns about that as well. Like

If that's what they're saying the client said, then that's what they're saying'cause they would never like after the first appointment they're saying, Yeah, sign this uh thirteen year old up for like testosterone. I just am not buying that their process is so rigorous and so like you know So after I I got that request for a letter, um I asked...

my boss again and the person who did the training and I said, Hey, I don't feel comfortable with this. I just want to be really clear that like this is what you would say I need to do, that I need to write this letter. Um in I uh I really in my silly little clueless brain thought they'd be like, Oh well of course not. Like if there's those issues going on, then you op obviously you don't write the letter and that is not what they said. They said there is no reason why mental health or

Trauma history would impact someone's gender identity. And if they're wanting a letter, you write that letter. Um and uh So... Uh um also in the gender clinic note, there it's like a form note, right? So they fill in things, but there's part of the form is that says

If your provider is not gender affirming, then they can be doing more harm to you. So find somebody else who is gender affirming. So basically like if your provider's not gonna write you this letter, then find somebody who will because your provider has a problem here. Um

So mm after I asked that question about the testosterone, um My boss came in and was like, I just wanna let you know, like this has gone over my head. There's nothing I can do. But the person who did the training has reported you to risk management. So then I'm likely to see. Finally. Now risk management and I can finally have a conversation about how we're doing harm to these kids. Like again, I'm so dumb. I think that this is actually gonna go in my favor.

But I'm like You have can I can I say you have travelled the path that so many of us, including me, thought Oh no, I just need to explain to people what's going on, then they'll get it and they'll do the right thing. Absolutely. I've I know exactly where you were coming from. It wasn't dumb. It's utter belief in the humanity of other people. Yes. And so I'm like, okay, we'll have this meeting and so the risk management and I met

And I'm like, Yeah, of course, look at this client's chart, look at all these reasons why I'm concerned. And then risk management decided that I was the risk. And so they took the client from me and gave it to somebody else on my team who obviously would write the letter for testosterone. So I think that's kind of where things ended. At one point I did ask just for clarification from risk management. I'm like I said, so what what you guys are looking at like

SOC eight guidelines here, right? And'cause I wanted in writing that that's what they're going off of. And she said Yeah, absolutely. That's what we're looking at. And Um, I started looking for a new job and found one and gave my two weeks notice in sub in December. So from September of the training to December, so much happened, so much conversation and just like I was just so disillusioned.

So you had really educated yourself if you were starting to talk about SOC eight and y you'd obviously figured out what was going down from the wounded dog until then the developmentally delayed person. Yeah, I still don't definitely don't consider myself an expert, but I feel like I know enough to know that like we shouldn't be medicalizing children, you know, and And I just keep thinking b thinking about how um there's that statistic that eighty percent of gender dysphoric youth outgrow that.

And if we can't decide or if we can't ha if we have no way of determining who's gonna be that twenty percent, then we shouldn't be medicalizing any of them. And if their brains aren't fully developed until they're twenty-five. They should not be able to consent to these treatments. So that's what I'm super clear on. The rest of it I'm still learning and trying to like understand, but I'm very clear on that. Yeah, we should not be medicalizing young people. Yeah.

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So you you put in a resignation, right? lose your job, but you were basically being nudged out. Base you were basically communicated that if you cannot comply then

We are going to keep hounding you until you do. Similar to what happened with Jamie, right? Jamie Reed. Um, so you decided you needed to to resign or leave. Can I can I just ask? I mean Did you ever have a point where maybe someone in your family or somebody you're talking to, or you just thinking about your life where you said, you know? I need this job. I have kids. I could just go along and

Just see what happens. Maybe these kids will be fine, you know, if we write the the letter. Like did you ever have a decision point like that? Because frankly, uh there are a lot of people who are writing these letters, and I don't think they're all terrible people, but I'm curious about

Was it very clear from the the whole time that you just could not get on board with this or did you have moments of wavering? Because I think that's very natural. It's funny'cause I didn't. Like even now when people are like, You're so brave, you're I was like It's I just feel like there was never it was never an option. Like I never deliberated or asked myself, like, how am I gonna respond to this? Like

I was just doing the thing that felt right. Like if you saw someone drowning, you'd try to save'em. Like I just I I wasn't I never was like, Should I jump into the pool? Like, obviously, like you're not gonna just not do anything. And so there was no point that I was like, um Sh what should I do here, you know?

And I knew I knew right from the start when I was gonna write that letter and say I wasn't gonna go to the training, I knew that I could lose my job over it. And I w just felt like what other option do I have here? Like I hate that I'm in this situation. I'm I hate that so much, but like There's no part of me that can just go along with it, you know?

Yeah. I I almost wonder if it's because you were such an outsider to the world of gender that you had such a strong conviction about it. Because what we've seen from, for example, the Leak W path files is that when people are deep in that ideology your sense of morality and right and wrong gets really warped and you have very intelligent experts. who keep finding ways to justify pretty horrific and experimental interventions on really vulnerable kids.

And so I I wonder if it's precisely because you knew nothing about gender that like you saw this and you were like, wait a minute, this is really terrible. Yeah. Whereas others who were getting the trainings and doing the advocacy work and like learning about gender identity. The they kinda get blunted to the the shock of doing these medical things to kids. Yeah, that's I never thought about that, but possibly. Okay.

So you resign, then then what happens? 'Cause you are now under investigation, so it w fill the the gaps. There's a lot here. Yes. So I um resigned. I started a new job in January. Um it was going fine. It was um like I was doing neural feedback, but I was hired to be like a neural feedback clinician slash

counselor. Um and my emp my new employer kept saying, like, you know, if the neural feedback stuff's not for you, then you can absolutely just do counseling'cause I was like That's where my passion is, right? Can you just explain what neurofeedback is? It's very different than therapy, so I just want our listeners to understand. Sure.

And I was I w did it for three weeks. So I'm not an expert on this either. But it's basically where you like look at your brain waves and you try to get your brain to like um give more of the positive brain waves and it helps eliminate um anxiety, depression, that sort of thing by like training your brain to um stay in

Alpha more than other other things, right? Is that your understanding also? Am I explaining that well? My understanding is that it's not super evidence based, but it is this like it's supposedly a biological intervention where you're stimuli to a patient while they're wearing all kinds of electrodes. Like so it's not like talk therapy, which is your bread and butter, right? So okay. Yes. So so go ahead. Yes. So I was hired on and I thought that would be something that I was doing kind of like

in addition to counseling, like and I was like, Okay, sure, whatever. But then it made they made it pretty clear that like, well, here's what we're gonna do, we're gonna train you here. And then I wasn't doing a whole lot of counseling. But I did have people follow me from multi care to do counseling. Anyway, so I say all that because

It's going fine. I'm doing training. I'm doing my counseling with my clients for multicare. Um, my employer's making it clear that if I want to do just counseling, that's fine. If I decide that neurof feedback's not my thing. And then three weeks, um after I start the job, the free press article comes out. And I let my boss know about it because I was like, well, I think that she should hear it from me versus somebody else and then it makes this look shady, you know?

And she never responded when I I just texted her the link and was like, Let me know if you want to meet and talk about any of this and she never responded. And so then the next day I said, just wanted to see if you had any questions about that or if you wanted if you I just wanted to see if you got my message and she's like kind of just skimmed over that and responded to something else.

Um, and then by the end of the week, she had let me go. She said, you know, what we really need here is a neurofeedback clinician. And I said, Okay, well if that's what you need, I don't wanna not have a job. I thought that I was gonna be able to potentially do counseling. Like so she just like did a you know, totally turned it around and w acted like that there was no room for me to be a counselor. Um

And so I said, Well if that's your if that's what you want, like a full time neurofeedback clinician, I don't wanna not have a job. I can do that. I I mean counseling is where my passion is, but I can do that and she s just kinda like didn't say anything and so then I said And this is seven o'clock at night, my kids are crying in the background, like it's just chaos. So um I um she didn't say anything and then I was like

But if you're trying to get rid of me right now, like I don't wanna just be not r I don't don't wanna be not reading between the lines. I don't wanna be like sticking around when this conversation is actually like your way of saying you're fired. Um and so then she's like, Yeah, I just don't think you're the right fit for this position. And so

It led us led me to believe that it had something to do with the article because why else would she suddenly be like, Nope, we don't want you to be here? Like we wa we want a full time neurofeedback clinician when she knew I was bringing clients for counseling. You know, from my previous place of employment. And she had just said twenty four hours prior even, like, Yeah, if you wanna be a counselor, that's fine. So then I lost my job. Were you surprised?

I was bl absolutely surprised because when she didn't respond to the article I was like, Well, maybe it's a non issue and she doesn't care. Um, I think she was probably just formulating, okay, well how do I want to what do I want to do here? And she was afraid to say anything'cause she thought she'll blow the whistle on us.

So sh that's why she shut it down, like just didn't say anything. Yeah, I was completely did not see it coming. So um then I'm like unemployed with three young children to feed and Um Trying to figure out what's next for me, you know. Um and so at that point I was like, you know, I think that I've uh somebody else used this terminology, but made myself radioactive in some way. Like no one's gonna hire me now.

Um, and so I should just look and and I don't want a boss. I don't wanna do this again where I like start a job and then get let go because I'm Tamara the whistleblower or whatever, you know? And so then I was like, I'll just do private practice. I'm licensed to, I can do that. And so I start looking into what that's gonna take. Um and then

About a month after the article came out, I got a cease and desist letter from multicare saying, you know, if you talk about these clients, we're gonna we might potentially sue you. And then

About three weeks ago I got a letter from the state saying that I yeah, I'm under investigation, that my license is under investigation and um I could potentially lose it. And they said that the reasons were um I said the client's age, which is not Ph I, but in their letter they said could make the client identifiable to somebody else.

that I wasn't being gender affirming, I did not use the client's pro chosen pronouns in the Free Press article, and that I suggested that gender dysphoria is mental illness, which it's in the DSM. But that's what the letter said. So those are the reasons why they're investigating me.

You must have been devastated. It feels sovious. Yeah, it's I'm like, you guys are looking at the wrong thing here. All I'm trying to say is like, let's protect these kids. And instead you're like just discounting me by calling me a transphobe, saying that maybe I shouldn't even be a therapist. Like It's just madness. Like I can't even like wrap my head around what's happening, you know? Yeah. I just don't understand. Yeah.

It's really devastating and I I understand that you have attorneys who are helping you with this case. Yeah. Um W within the bounds of what you can say, what's their impression of this? And and are they familiar with the gender stuff? Because like it's really interesting, you are an outsider from gender. This happened to you. I really hope your attorneys are not outsiders from gender because

This is very classic gender stuff. Silencing dodging the real harm to like go after language harm about pronouns. I this is actually quite classic. So are you are your attorneys Like pros at gender? I hope they are. Yeah, so my main attorney um mostly deals with

Detransitioners. So yes, m way more knowledgeable in this area than I am. Okay. Um, and then the two people I got connected with recently, um They my understanding is that they their expertise while they know about gender is more about people who are being Like medical professionals whose licenses are being threatened. So Um, so my understanding going forward is that there's probably gonna be an administrative hearing that it's not gonna go in my favor, that um

You know, just that I should just expect to be reprimanded. You know, whether or not I'm gonna lose my license, I I hope not. Um I think that I think that they're not going to be able to do I don't know. I think they just want me to shut up and go away and like then if I as long as I'm quiet, as long as I just like, you know, accept my punishment and then life will just move on for me and I can, you know, whatever, I'll be in on probation for a couple of years and then

Um I'll just be I'll have learned my lesson not to talk. But every time I talk to my lawyers, I'm like, whatever you guys think I should do, I'll do. Like I'm in it now. Like I've sacrificed everything. Like I obviously care so much about my family and taking care of them, but like I care about creating a better world for them too. And that's what I'm trying to help accomplish here is like as much as I can, as little old me who doesn't know a lot about this.

I want to have a voice. I want to be able to say, I you know, I as a therapist was not able to express my concerns. First of all, how alarming is it that our medical professionals, if they see something that is concerning to them, are like reprimanded for saying that it's a concern, you know, like that's Terrifying. Um just my experience I feel like has just been so baffling to me and I just

desperately want things to change for these young people who are just lost and confused and who isn't when they're a teenager? Like that's part of being a teenager is figuring out who y who they are and let's create the safe space for them to do that where they're not making lifelong changes to their bodies, you know? Yeah, for sure. So I mean your attorneys don't seem to be very hopeful. They they think you will be reprimanded. Which which is very concerning.

I think because I'm in Washington State. Like this we are so woke here that like anyone who's not part of that mentality is considered I mean part of the problem. So I think that the lawyer the lawyers I talked with are local, the ones I just met with and they're

They were just like we've done lots of cases like this. I just wanna let you know like this is how it's gonna be. Like it's not gonna be a fair hearing. They're not gonna it's not gonna be yeah, basically it's not gonna go in your favor. And so you just need to like expect that. So yeah, it's blows my mind. Like, so then what are we doing here as like a society if I can't even go there and be like

Here's what I'm trying to say. If it's just to go in and be punished, you know, like I don't know. Yeah. We hope you're enjoying this conversation as much as we are. We just wanted to take a quick moment and say thank you to all of our listeners. Your support helps us to keep the lights on and the mics hot. We recently made the switch to Substack so we could build a more robust listener community. Visit widerlenspod.com and check out the different subscription tiers.

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Have you received other feedback that is supportive and hopeful and positive. I mean, uh you and I have talked a little bit, of course, outside of this recording, and my understanding is like your family and loved ones are super supportive. Like tell us wha what else has been uh people's responses to this whole process. Sure, yeah. So my f my close friends um

There's a couple of them who are like, Yeah, absolutely. I've got your back. Don't stop now. Like, keep doing what you need to do. And then I have friends who are like, Tamara, I'm just worried that they're gonna think you're a transphobe. Like, maybe you should stop or

Don't you value your kids' futures? Like, why are you sacrificing everything? Like, look at your kids now that you don't have a job. And so even my well meaning friends, some of them, I just feel like this has been so divisive, you know? Um

as far as like what's being said to me from people that I don't know, I've gotten a lot of people, a ton of a lot of people have reached out and been so incredibly supportive. I have the gives and go and sometimes when I'm feeling down I look through the comments there and I just feel so grateful that there's people who are appreciating what I'm trying to accomplish because it can feel very, very much like just lonely or like what's the point? You know? Yeah. Um, or people just don't get it. Um

So yes, and I know that people have said negative things about me too. I have not Googled myself. I do not care to read what anyone is saying. Um but people who've reached out to me directly have all been incredibly kind. And I'm so grateful for that.

I wanted to know more about your give send go. Can you tell us what that is? Yeah, so right before the article came out I got um connected with the Courage Coalition. So Jamie Reed, I believe, um was the founder of that, and there's other people also involved. Um basically creating a

a safe space or like a soft landing kind of for future whistleblowers. So that like if you do lose your job, if this thing does horrible thing does happen to you because you aired your concerns, like this organization, these people will help you be okay. Like you will not go hungry. It's so important that people that have concerns know that this organization is there. Um

Because otherwise you are just like floundering and like what's next for me, you know? So they created this give send go um to raise money to just kind of like help um me meet my basic needs until I'm able to start working again. Which I thought would be sooner rather than later, but now that this whole investigation's happening, I'm like, oh thank God for that give send go. Nana live, it's a lot. Yeah. So they've been incredibly supportive.

I've seen it that we've got a programme in Genesback called Beyond Trans where people um prioritise the non medicalized approach to gender dysphoria and you know they're on a directory, so they're therapists as such But um some of them I've seen we were discussing this earlier, they they they uh to get around these kind of very, as I said earlier, Soviet Stasi like kind of um Restrictions on conventional therapy. Some people are choosing to be a consultant or a parent consultant or a or a coach.

rather than to fall in with what is, frankly, it seems to be rotten from the inside out, organisations that I I have noticed in my work, time and time again, they don't they do uh presume that the local trans lobby group is the expert. And they don't actually seem to be very well informed themselves. It's it's really noticeable when you speak to them. They give themselves away with little phrases. They often say, let's say for example, they might say

body gender dysmorphia or something. That you can just hear the just these little phrases and you think they don't know very much. and they they bow to these experts. But hopefully there will be way forwards for yourself through these organisations like Beyond Trans or

I think there's open therapy and of course there's therapy first and there's critical therapy antidote. There's lots thoughtful therapists of course. There's loads of organisations now that are providing support and offering an alternative viewpoint. to and arguably those organizations that I've named are are protecting conventional psychotherapy, prevention protecting it.

Yeah, and and I wanna say this isn't an alternative. This is being lifted up in all of the European countries who have done systematic reviews as the primary intervention. It's supposed to be psychological support. So I I I think it's uh what's really difficult here in the US, particularly in certain states. where legislation has not caught up at all with the science, it makes it seem as though you're an outlier, but actually you are way ahead of the curve because in five years

Everybody is going to be doing psychological. So it's just I know it's so disheartening, but I feel very strongly that You providing psychological support before gender affirmation is the standard and it's the best practice. In terms of what we know globally about best practice, this is the closest thing we have actually. So it's a bit of a like a house of mirrors kind of thing right now when when your approach is being made to sound so out there. It's actually not. It's very

Safe. It's the safest way. Yeah, I agree. Yeah and were you were you worried um about coming out to the public, I suppose? You know what I mean, having your name on it because a lot of people seem to come out, let's say Um they come out but they don't come out because they don't use their name. And you were very I'm glad you did, very honest and brave.

In fact you reminded me of something earlier on. I remember reading a study about um m men who in the in the World War who uh were given a Victoria Cross for bravery. And they were uh interviewed about it, like you know I mean g uh a great act of bravery is what th they had uh carried out and they won won the Victoria Cross. This is over in the in England. And uh they each said exactly what you just said, Tamara, which was

I didn't have any choice. I just had to do it. Like it was just it was the road before me. It was the appropriate thing to do. More shocking than anybody else wouldn't do it really. And that seems to be the instinct of a brave person, that they just jump in the water, just like, Look, look, somebody's drowning.

Do you know what I mean? Um which is it's a credit to you. But i I wonder did you agonise much to go back to my question, about your name, about going out in public, did you look and see how Jamie Reid had landed? What how much were you kind of acquainting yourself with this whole world? Yeah, so I did talk to Jamie about it and just kind of like had things

Like was preparing myself for what could potentially be coming when the article came out. As far as putting my name on it, I my thought was like, if I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do it. Like I'm not gonna do it like I have something to hide or like I'm ashamed. Like I'm gonna just be in it. Like I'm already in it. And so I

Which isn't to say that somebody who doesn't want their name in it is ashamed, but I just felt like I wanna be in it a hundred percent, you know? Um even if there's backlash. I just feel like that's what I have to do here. So it wasn't really something I deliberated. Yeah. Well, what do you see kind of coming next? I know you talked about f feeling a bit stymied right now because you you know, you were thinking about going into private practice.

But now there's this investigation. Are you kind of stuck in a place of limbo or like where do things stand for you right now? Yeah, no, I still I still want to start seeing people. I I just think I feel a little bit like w I mean I just feel like is that I don't know. So I just try to like think about it

'Cause I don't know what's coming down the road. If I'm seeing people and then suddenly I have to like go to court, like how f how fair is that to them? You know, like or what if my license is taken and then they lose their therapist? Like I did that at multicare when I left. I did that.

At the last place I was at when I left, you know, people followed me from multi care. I don't want to keep like dropping my clients when they think that, you know, that they can depend on me. And so I feel it just a little bit like, okay, I was so motivated to do this private practice thing and now I just feel like Want to sleep. I'm just so tired. I don't know what to do. So it's just easy to be like, oh, I'm just gonna take a nap.

Well I Well you can't take a nap forever. That means something different. The stress the stress is enormous. It's a it's an extraordinarily frightening. You're very cool about it here, but it's an extraordinarily frighteningly disruptive. It's like you are on this path and suddenly you're on another path and it's it th there's no um there's no obvious road ahead. And that's very frightening often. Yeah. Yeah, it is. And it's also just like

I don't know, just so disillusioning that that society is the way that they are right now, that this is how I've been received. So just trying to like process all of that is just it's just taking it it's a lot, you know? But it's yeah, it's amazing because I think a lot about regional differences and I mean, prior to moving to Arizona I lived in Texas and of course there are definitely people who

uh took issue with my approach to things, but for the most part, I have not really had any pushback. Like when I have conversations with people at d dinner parties or I meet people out and about People think it's quite reasonable to have concerns about medical interventions for kids. And what's really remarkable is like people that I've gotten to know in this gender world who live, for example, in the Northeast or the Pacific Northwest, like where you are in Washington.

The climate is so dramatically different. And I don't know what it's like in Ireland or or the UK if there's like these pockets, these regional pockets of massive difference, but Man, it's so strange because I've had pretty much nothing but support and interest when I talk about my work. So it's just so disheartening to hear how hostile your environment is for ironically an environment that claims to be so open-minded and progressive. It's weird.

Mm-hmm. I I wish I wish you would could feel more hopeful and and frankly, I mean, I'm sure our listeners would agree and I'm certainly here rooting for you, but I think there are lots of ways you could continue to practice and work. because it's very much needed to to do good old fashioned regular therapy with these kids who have a lot of complicated issues and I'm sure you could

find a very kind of supportive environment via the internet or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. I mean I definitely have hope. I think that we're Things are shifting and as far as like what I'm able to do in the future, I think that that's all gonna figure itself out, you know? Um just it's right now I'm like, man, things are so wild. I did not see this coming.

Yeah. F fortune favours the brave. I think if you did set up, I think well I know that there would be uh you know, I know you have set up, but if you created your own niche I think I think you guys call it a niche, but anyway, I'll call it a niche. If you created your own scene I think you would be uh um you know, gratified to see that there's a huge, huge demand that ha can't be met, frankly, of not only it's not only people who've been harmed by medical transition, it's parents.

It's people who are deeply trans identified. There's a lot of different groups that are seeking people like you who just operate a an ethical, conventional, therapeutic approach. Yeah, there there is a big demand. There's one question I want to ask before we go towards the end, which is you you mentioned that you googled lots of groups.

You were kind of I always ask I'm always very interested in that. When you Googled, you were basically going, hang on, this affirmative approach that I'm being sent to w with a with a kind of a mandatory kind of um Attitude. What how what did you Google and how who did you find when you did'cause I can't get out of my echo chamber because the algorithm just sent me straight to all my pals. What did you find when you Googled and do you remember what were the words you used?

Mm. I spent like like I said, three Like three days. hours and hours reading and trying to figure out like w and then looking at p key phrases and being like, Okay, so that got me something that, you know That search got me something, one article that seemed like, Okay, yeah, that's something that I can use and so then I would just follow that article to like something else, you know, so I don't really know. I know I got connected with Therapy First and Segum and just a whole bunch of different

Um organizations. Um and was there a moment when you thought I'm sitting on a whole movement here? There's a whole huge grand swell of people who are thinking this. I felt like I wasn't crazy when I s realized that there's other people fighting this, you know, fight.

And that was very encouraging because I was like, what is happening? Why do I feel so like this is not okay? And that's not what Google's telling me at all. They're telling me it's great. So Can we ask one one last question for the main portion and then we'll we'll jump over into our substack exclusive content? We were kind of talking before about the

Do you like apply to be a whistleblower? Or how does that technical designation land on people? Because there may there may be people listening who are therapists working in various clinics who also want to kind of speak out and I I'm aware that some laws will protect some aspects of quote whistleblowing, but d can you share to the best of your knowledge what is a whistleblower exactly?

Yeah, I I had no I had never even heard the term whistleblower until somebody used it to describe me. I was like I did not seek to be a whistleblower. I had no idea what that even was. Um and my friends laugh. They're like, You are the least likely person on the whole planet to like be in this role right now. And like they're like, How are you here? And I'm like, I don't know. Like I'm just I it's baffling to all of us. But um But um yeah, so I didn't seek to be a whistleblower. I just

wanted to have a voice and say something isn't right here. And then things just kinda escalated when I was being met with so much hostility and just resistance. And at some point um the people I was talking with were like, okay, yeah, this is this is like a whistleblower case where you could potentially you know, influence some change.

And for anyone else who has these concerns, like Uh, please say something. I know that I have not made it sound super fun to be a whistleblower. But people keep telling me like you're gonna be on the right side of history and that means so much to me. Like My kids are gonna be so proud of me down the road, you know? And when when things shift in our favor and we're taking care of kids in the way that they deserve to be taken care of.

like I will I hundred a hundred percent believe I will be quote on the right side of history and so that like gives me I don't know, just that's what I want for myself and so I would hope that anyone else who has these concerns Um just know that you know right now it you might be making yourself making things harder for yourself, but the you of the future is gonna be so proud that you stood for what you believed in. Oh good for you.

That's beautiful. Well, thank you so much. We'll wrap up our main portion here and we'll continue this conversation in the in the sub stack. Okay. Thank you so much for joining us. Yeah, thank you for having me. Thanks for joining us this week on Gender a Wider Lens. If you enjoyed the show, please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And be sure to visit us on Substack via

Lenspod.com. There you can join our listener community, access bonus content and resources, plus learn about additional ways to support the show. Our discussions are for educational purposes and are not intended as a