129 - Is “Gender-Affirming Care” an Oedipus Trap

We're so excited, registration is officially open for our weekend of workshops in Annapolis, Maryland, September 21st through 24th. You can visit WhenKidsSayTheertrans.com and click on weekend of workshops to find more information. We've had some really really special events so far and we're really looking forward to this one in September.

Yes, and if you've attended previous events, please know this is going to be all new material, workshop style, based on our new book, When Kids Say They're Trans. So we hope to see you there and check our website for more information.

Hi, I'm Stella O'Malley, a psychotherapist in Ireland. And I'm Sasha Ayad, an adolescent therapist in the United States. Stories and psychological exploration, we probe the gender landscape within contemporary And we consider the implications. of prioritizing personal identity over other aspects of the self. This is the thinking person's take on gender. Join us as we look at gender from a wider lens. Hello, how's life with you?

It's good. I ha I haven't had a solo episode with you in some time, so this is really nice. We'll get to kind of like relax and chit chat. Yeah, it's like it's like hanging out with you. It's like hanging out with I really love it. Have you been busy these days?

I have been really busy. I've been working on a lot of things for my membership group. I I have a video coming out about um You know, young people who are kind of trying to run away from themselves by changing their name and changing their identity online.

and how that's kind of sometimes a vector towards experimenting in real life with an identity change. So that's been really interesting. Wow. And I I'm I'm teaching a workshop for Geta, which I'm really excited about. It's gonna be on August nineteenth, which is a Saturday. And it's about what happens when you are a therapist with an online persona.

And your clients have very rigid political identities and like how do you manage that? Because this is an issue that as you know comes up a lot. Clients are certainly Googling their therapists and like trying to see what they say about things and It can be challenging, so so I'll be teaching a workshop about that in August. I should attend that workshop. I'll have some difficult questions for the teacher.

Yeah, please throw throw me the questions. I'm ready for it. How about you? Um yeah, I've I've been I've been pretty busy. We had Alistair back for a second uh a second go at my Substack and it was great. We were speaking really about parents and c the classic OGD parent and the challenges they face.

And you know, the questions were really complex and really powerful, really good. It feels like You know, i i it used to be and you'll know this well, Sasha, y the the first tranche of kind of parents you and I met They were just in the headlights, in fright, in shock, very scared. Now we've moved into a more reflective space where it's like, Well, what's working and what isn't and what are the issues maybe I need to confront?

to kind of bring about change within the household. And that still means there's a medical scandal ongoing in the background or in the foreground.

But there's also what's going on with my own family. Even if this wasn't gender, if this was something else, what would we be talking about? Where would we be going so Um moving out of the political and going into the personal really and uh they they've been really, really helpful and we're gonna have a few other people I'm gonna have a few other people in the sub stack just talking because what happens is the the the comments

are very uh thought provoking and the questions are very thought provoking. I have to say, like, the the the par the parents can give themselves a, you know, uh uh clap in the back. They're so engaged and they're so genuinely trying to get it right and they've they're they're gone through the fires of hell.

And they're trying to do it right. It's it's f frightening to watch it and awe inspiring, isn't it? It really is. Yeah. These parents are so deeply, deeply committed and engaged. And like you said, there's a lot of kind of hand wringing of like what we should have done here, what we should have done there. And I think it really helps to remember that even if this particular gender thing, which i is really complicated and it is a scandal,

Even if this wasn't present, there might be other difficulties that your family is dealing with. So I think that helps to kind of take the pressure off. Very much so. Very much so. That's great. And everybody loves when Alistair comes. I mean he's fantastic. He's amazing. He's such a frigid speaker. You just give him anything. I know if he goes he could make anything interesting. But i he is he's so informed about the parents' issues. And the parents pit uh parents of inconvenient truth.

have their book coming out soon and that's gonna be very powerful. It's I think it's fifteen stories. of parents and any of us who've read, you know, Pitt like Substack, it's there's so many amazing stories in it. That'll be out and uh or it might be already out by the time this comes out. And I think it's gonna be huge. I think it's gonna be a real real eye opener to people to to see what's Yeah, I think it's gonna be brilliant. Pitch stone at publishing it. And they're they're um

They're publishing a lot of interesting books around gender, aren't they? Well done, Pitchstone. Yeah. Yeah. Ahead of the pack is what I'd call it.

And you know, today's episode is gonna be relevant for way more people than just parents. because we're talking about a very complicated topic that you and I have been thinking about. We've actually been kinda tense about because we're trying to figure out what's gonna happen as we move along in this kind of gender world and clinicians who were affirming

Start to recognize something is wrong, change course, leave the field, or tell their story. And how do we grapple with the fact that some of these clinicians have participated in something very damaging to a lot of young people. And then

kind of turn the corner and take a different perspective. And and there's just so many complicated issues around this. So I think anybody observing the whistleblowers has probably had some of these questions on their mind too, and we wanted to just give that some space to.

Yeah, I think No more than it's a very certain type of person who will detransition to who uh I think there's a huge amount more who won't detransition, who will say, I've transitioned and I I shouldn't have but I'm going to stay transitioned because going back is too big and too difficult and I I I haven't the energy or the spirit to do.

So I'm going to continue on within this transition. I could have taken a different road but I didn't. And In parallel to that, there's a lot of clinicians, arguably, who have um been affirmative. And on some level the information will be getting out there often through detransitioners or people who regret it, trans regret, and they will think, I don't think I think I've left my training behind, I think I lost my way

And some of them become whistleblowers, but whistleblowers are it's a very difficult path to be a whistleblower. They're few and far between. Even though there's scandals everywhere, whistleblowers don't come up very often.

And you know, uh w we we were we were kind of inspired to talk about this'cause we were thinking about the eatable trap. And you know, w when you look at the story of You know the mythical story of Oedipus And when he was born he was he was born to King Laus and I'll probably pronounce all of these wrong, so forgive me preemptively. And Queen Jocasta. And when he was born th there was a uh a prediction that he was going Yeah that he was going to um marry his his um mother.

And um he was sent away to kill his father and that was a prediction. Yeah. And he was sent away so that this wouldn't happen. And um you know In the myth, inadvertently the prophecy happens. Many years later he does marry his his mother and kill his father. And th the the the the the the mother When she realizes Queen Jucast, a key part of this, because Sigmund Freud made this big thing, a big psychological point about this, which is the Oedipul complex.

and he said that we're all destined to want to marry our mother and and kill our father. And he you know, he he he made a lot of it. Men. If men, men. I'm making a mess of this. And then um Yeah, um there's another part of the story that feels very psychologically important, which is on realizing that this had come true, Queen Jocasta hung herself, she died by suicide because she couldn't face the reality of what she had done.

And Oedipus, no less than Queen Jacasta, took pins out of her dress and stuck them in his eyes. Again with kind of I can't bear what what I'm being faced with. And that's perhaps really interesting psychologically. Maybe there are things we can't face in life that we I am sure there are things we can't face in life. Not only that, I'm sure I've met many people who have faced things that who have just chosen to look away from certain truths about their life because it's too much.

And the survivor, the psychological survivor instinct in us just shuts down and says that way madness lies. I can't. And we look another way. I think this is a big psychological is aspect that we need to be aware of in this world. Yeah.

Yeah, and I mean I I I've been thinking about this and you know in preparation for this episode you sent me this amazing podcast. Which we'll include in the notes, I think it's a journalist called Megan McCardell, and she talks about her study of the lobotomy kind of epidemic and uh Walter Friedman, who was like the big kind of zealist. Proponent of it, and she clarifies that sometimes we misunderstand what happened. Like there's a certain type of person that paints the lobotomy epidemic as.

These were these mind control procedures that were pushed onto people in order to subdue them and basically turn people into vegetables. But that's not actually the case. What actually happened was that there was a variety of outcomes. Many people were subdued and s basically sedated mechanically. and turned into quote vegetables. But some people, some rare cases, were successful.

And like she describes one lady who went on to get a PhD in math after her lobotomy, and that patients were lining up to get these procedures. And that this guy Walter Friedman until the day he died was a hundred percent convinced that what he had done was really helpful. And even though he had, I think, some of his last patients died because of this procedure.

He lived and died convinced that what he had done was actually helpful. And I think Uh this this is going to be true for gender in a way that like I want to be humble enough to say there are gonna be people who genuinely experience relief. and think that their gender transition was very beneficial to them. And I don't wanna take that experience away from people. I absolutely believe that some people

despite maybe some medical complications or the heavy medical burden that we often talk about, will say, But you know what? At the end of the day, had I not done this, I would have killed myself, or I would have died, or I would have been miserable. And I'll take you know, the incontinence or I'll take these kind of complicated medical issues that I'm dealing with now over the misery that I was suffering before. And I think everybody has a right to make sense of their own experience that way.

But it's like when you're the clinician and you don't personally have any skin in the game and you're operating in such a way that you're like doing this these procedures over and over and over and over to lots of patients. And maybe you're in touch with a couple of them, but frankly, we know a lot of affirmative clinicians. They don't know what happened to their patients from eight years ago. They're they have no idea.

But it's like what happens in the mind of an affirming clinician when they're aware that some people are detransitioning, they're aware that some people regret, and other people are fine. What stories are you gonna focus on? How are you gonna make sense of your practice, your work and through, you know, what's happening in the UK we know like something like thirty five clinicians

uh resigned from their positions. We haven't heard from all of them. Yeah, in 2019. So I'm so interested in like there are therapists kind of like when we spoke to Sarah Stockton who like were part of this. Realized something was wrong and then w wanted to just walk away and never look back. Okay.

And I guess this episode is really about all of this. I mean s there's so much here. And I I'm I'm really conflicted about how to make sense of all of it. And not only that, I think there are parents in the mix of all that who I would argue uh it's it's a truth too harsh to take, that you might have encouraged your child's transition and it could have been avoided. and they are now physically weakened significantly as a result. I can see how a parent just

can't take that. They just they can't take that truth and they they will therefore what we do is we we rationalise it to ourselves and we say we needed to do that. And I I get I think we do it a lot. I think we do it a lot. Walter Freeman was but particularly um intent upon proving to himself and the world that lobotomies were a great thing. And like you say, you know, many of them died. And many of them were were really left to

very wounded by these lobotomies. And there he was, dying of cancer, crisscrossing America, going to great lengths to find these people that he had lobotomized. to prove to himself that they were great. And honestly, he he did it in good faith. He genuinely died believing it was the best thing that could have been done for those people. He truly believed in the concept and in the in the work of the lobotomist. And this was not somebody who was defending himself, he was advocating positive.

Yeah. For for lobotomies. Even after they'd gone out of favour, he was still um um like the Japanese fighter in the woods. So th there's a few different groups here who would be arguably um n n n facing the kind of Oedipus track. They'll be kind of saying to themselves, W I can't face this truth. And whatever way I d I can't face the truth that it's been terrible.

And so now I I'm going to have to rationalise in one way or the other. And I'd imagine a lot of clinicians will say to themselves, I gave great therapy. I gave great expiratory therapy and the people who came through me were actually very well served. And then when it became a little bit hot, I I moved on. And, you know, I I kinda did it right.

And like you know, we we I could see why. I could see why they would do that. And I'd say parents equally will say our kid had to trans

They had to. We had no choice. We had no choice. And the transitioner will say, I had to transition. And I would argue we we always have choices. I know in therapy when somebody comes in and they tell me they've no choice in any context It's my job to kind of hold the space of okay, okay, you feel you've no choices and at the right time, perhaps outline some other options that occur to me.

that mightn't be palatable but they are there to be explored. Um I I think that's our job, isn't it? To make sure that the other options have been explored. Yeah, and that's the key thing'cause like as we're talking, I was having this little argument with myself in my mind that we're We could be accused of telling a kind of just so story.

we could be accused of basically saying even people who say they like their transition are fooling themselves, which is a bit it's a it could be construed as disin construed as disingenuous. Like Even people self report that they're happy, we're basically saying that's not true. But who the hell do we think we are? You're right. Yeah, but but I think the I think the thing that keeps coming to my mind is like

were people given the options? And that's that feels like, you know, another issue about informed consent. If you are basically told it's transition or die. Such a good point. You're not actually making a truly informed consent because that could be seen as some sort of um, you know, I d I don't know what the term is. Like there's a term for it. Some sort of like undue influence or

It's like coercion or something. I can't. But it's a catch twenty two as well, or or you know I don't know, there's a better phrase, but you don't have the I'm sure it's everybody's shouting at it. Is it Hobson's choice maybe? Where you have you have no choice. It's a pretend choice. Yes, exactly. Exactly. I I I think a lot of people took this choice to transition.

genuinely thinking that they had no option and genuinely thinking suicide was was d down down you know, the uh the other road, down the road for that. And um if if that was the case then they were faced with the wrong wrong choice because actually that's not

And so therefore it's not informed, it wasn't informed, and maybe it's working out, lots of things work out, and maybe it isn't working out, but actually you weren't given the choice in the first place. Not the proper choice, and it wasn't informed.

Yeah. It makes me think of when we interviewed Debbie Hayton and she's told this story many times. Like before she transitioned, her therapist basically said, Look, before you embark on this process I want us to explore every single ramification, every single angle, what all your options are, if you do it, if you don't do it, how you'll deal with this, how you'll deal with that. And then kinda coming to this decision after deeply exploring

this in a slow way, right? Like the sense of urgency that Debbie had was intense. But the therapist said, I know you feel urgency, but what we're gonna do is we're really gonna try and look at this from a lot of angles. And then I think at that point it makes a lot more sense to say this was an informed decision, which changes this kind of dynamic with the the Oedipal Trap because You know, there's a sense of like y you can have less regrets if you know you've really explored.

Yeah, yeah. That can give you comfort in the dark night of the soul when you wake up and think, Sho should I have done something else? Is this all gone wrong? Um just a kind of Further the kind of what what Debbie Hayden said because I've heard Debbie say that. And then I've also heard Debbie say in an interview with us

That there was this kind of mist of get out of my way. So how able Debbie was to actually discuss it I would say was very limited. It was like get out of my way, I'm transitioning. The therapist went so far as

But an actual chair in front of the door and say, that's transition. And picked it up and put it on front of the door. I've always thought it was an interesting technique. I've never done it yet, but I've always thought it was interesting. And said NAT I've always wanted to be one of those kind of

Kind of active therapist who does something like that, but I never have the courage to pull it off. But um yeah, the chair went in front of the door and uh the therapist said let's discor just explore all the other options. But now having spoken to Debbie quite a few times about it, I don't think Debbie was open. I think it was completely narrowly

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. These are the options. These are the options. And I've met people like that about various different things. They're technically exploring them. But how much are they? Still it it's the therapist's job to still cycle through them at a slow level, you know what I mean? And I I sometimes wonder

In that manner, and this is kind of interesting, does certain types of therapy work better for gender ex exploration than others? Because if you're going to discuss it in a very um affirming, gender affirming kind of way.

Arguably you're not going to explore other options'cause you're going to be led by the client. You're just going to explore what they think, which will be all the pluses of medical transition. While if you have a different type of approach Arguably it's just immediately your school of of of of training will mean that you'll explore other objects.

Yeah. And you know, I'm I'm thinking about a quote that I heard on that podcast about the edible trap. Uh a physician or no physicist, sorry, named Richard Feynman said, the first principle is not to fool yourself. And you're the easiest person to fool. Yeah. So, you know, to to kinda tie that in with what you're saying, if someone is using a highly affirmative approach that really precludes exploration of other things.

it's easier to fool themselves because they're basically excluding a huge avenue of exploration and then in hindsight they have Almost like this kind of sunk cost fallacy, you know, I've done this with so many patients. It would be too hard to consider that I might have fooled myself. So I'm just gonna keep fooling myself. You know, she said something like in the podcast, like every time a surgeon did lobotomies.

He had a greater incentive to believe in lobotomies. And I was like, whoa, yeah. That blew my mind. I mean it's so simple, but it's true. And I I wonder, can we say the same thing about these kind of youth gender transitions. Every time a therapist or an endocrinologist or a surgeon engages in some sort of youth affirmation, it just increases their incentive to believe in affirmation.

You're so right. And if you're in a clinic and that's why me and you often if p people are looking for therapists, we say, you know, go for an experienced seasoned therapist who's working on their own because they're much less likely to be caught up in in a group think. If you're in a clinic where um everybody is um agreeing with each other. There's a massive collusion going on, arguably, that this is the right thing. And we saw that with the Tavistock and we saw it in Hannah Barnes' book

that they were rolling along, even though like by twenty sixteen the results had come in. This is not helping. This puberty blockers are not helping. This is not a success. This is definitely not working. Th you know, the the dogs bark and the caravan rolls on. It just continued on because they were in this group thing.

I remember and and it was Megan McGardle, which I really recommend this podcast. She she talks about Semmelwise, who realised he was the the doctor who realized that by washing our hands the hospitals would r massively reduce the infant mortality and the maternal mortality. That basically physicians and doctors in the nineteenth century were uh inadvertently murdering their patients, I shouldn't laugh, but they were through not washing their hands.

um after a birth and the you know, the disease was kind of flying through the h hospitals. And, you know, he he ended up in a lunatic asylum, Semelweis did. Nobody would listen to him. And they rejected his theory because it was so arguably because it was so horrifying to think all we needed to do was wash our hands to prevent deaths that it got dismissed. It could not be true.

that this is such a s easy simple explanation. Equally I could I know it's a jump, but equally people could say it could not be true. that arcade just needed some some uh psychotherapy and they might have avoided this massive physical, you know, heavy burden on our on their body. I I can see how people will just say, I I it's too big to bear and I I can't take it.

And so they rejected Samelwise's instructions. He was like, you know, Pandora, you know, condemned to see the truth and nobody would listen to him. And it drove him mad. It literally drove him mad and I could see why. Even though his his his teaching lived on. He had a very hard time with it.

Yeah, I and so we're we're kinda talking now uh essentially about all the different people who might be vulnerable to this edible trap of like Actually, I just have to keep convincing myself that everything we've done is great. It's kind of like that silly internet meme. where there is the dog and he's sitting in a house on fire and it says everything is fine. Like this is fine. This is great.

Well that's all of us in the gender world. It's fine. Yeah, this is fine. And I mean it's it's true in a way like sometimes all the kidney it was just some basic good old fashioned therapy. And sometimes it's even simpler than that. Sometimes it's like You just need a s a summer with your, you know, grandparents on their farm and just a lot of love and leaning in and like family dinners and like hanging out with the dog. I mean it's some

It sounds so trite. It's like the touchgrass thing which people make fun of, but sometimes it's that simple. And when you think about like families who are facing this This fork in the road where one direction is make your entire life around gender. Put your child on puberty blockers, rearrange everything, get their name legally changed, develop a new identity for your child, turn them into basically a medical patient forever.

People must think, well, that could not possibly be the solution unless it was like 100% the right solution. Like people wouldn't accidentally do that to a child, right? And then the other solution is like. Get some of the unhelpful influences out of their life. Keep them busy with other things. Lean on with a lot of love. Reconnect. Bond.

Yeah. I mean it sounds stupid almost. Like it sounds stupid. Like why would an entire medical system and school system and culture push child to option one if option two could really be helpful? And that's of course not the case in all circumstances, but for a lot of these kids, we hear dissistant stories, that is what it takes.

And of course it's it's a monumental task for parents to do that because they're constantly being undermined by all these other parts of the culture, but sometimes it is really that fundamental. I know.

It reminds me you know I played the tin whistle. It's a traditional Irish uh mu instrument. Okay, next time we have a second episode, you are going to play the tin whistle for us. And listeners We lose all our listeners. No, we will not. We'll gain a whole new cohort of listeners. Okay, go ahead. We won't. Um but it's it's often said at the whistle because it is a very simple uh instrument that it's simple to play, difficult to master. And I would say in a very similar way, so is well being.

It's it's it's simple to describe and very difficult to master. So when we talk about therapy it can feel incredibly trying. It can feel so it can feel cringe when you and I are talking about it, because it's like, oh, pet the dog, go outside, meet your friends. And honestly we anybody who's lived a certain and that's why it's so interesting watching people who are in their sixties and seventies.

they've often mastered it. They've often mastered life as such. They they take it handy, they enjoy their cup of tea, they enjoy their kind of time with their family. If the train leaves they go, Oh, we'll get the other N not all of them, but there's a a good chunk. It's quite noticeable that, you know, pleasure in life ups as some people get older. Not all, but definitely some.

And it's like they've kind of mastered well being. They've just figured out how to have a nice day and how to and if you have enough nice days you you you you will be kind of moving away from mental health difficulties. And it's not easy, is it? Yeah, that's such a good point. That's such a good point. And I mean, th this also comes up because they're the stakes feel so high with the gender world. So I I know sometimes

when these debates are happening around therapy, people are like, Well, these kids are in distress. What do you do? Like what are the t the therapeutic techniques? What is the therapy? What is the treatment? Yeah. It's actually probably a very annoying answer, but like the kids that I've worked with that I've seen improve and sometimes they're still

They're still identified as trans, but they're just so much healthier mentally. Yeah. It's just such a slow process. It's like the waves of the ocean, like the tide comes in, the tide goes out, the tide comes in. We address this as it comes up. Self-reflection, a little bit of like self-awareness, or what are your patterns? It's so Simple but it's very hard to master and it takes a lot of time and it takes consistency and um sometimes you know therapists

who are starting this work will reach out to me and they they get in this gridlock immediately with the client about like gender stuff and medical stuff and it's like It's not even about that. We just have to go really slow. Um And also I I uh because I I'm just I'm just back from holidays and I I was at um uh music festival where I was learning the whistle and I'd gone there in my early twenties in the very same place, the very same class, right?

And so that was maybe twenty five years ago. And I remembered young me in those classes. And I often say I was kind of animalistic. I remember my intensity. I r I was sitting there remembering me. And I remember just how behavioural I was. I was just compelled to do things. Back then I just felt I have to do this, I have to do that, this is happening, that's happening. And now I'm I'm forty eight, I've it's like I'm

So much more reflective, and I'm not sure how anybody could have given that to me. I I think only time was going to give this to me. I I really do think I I had there was nothing that could have unclenched me. They c it could have maybe made my my way a little bit easier. But there was a a a a genuine time to to mellow out. And if somebody if I if that person, that person who I was at twenty three, is intent upon transitioning How much are they able to listen to other people?

Views when they're like get out of my way, I need to transition. Mm-hmm. And and all we can do arguably is bring about some more self awareness A reflection of how you'll change in the future, a kind of a humility of how little we know at a certain age. It's a long program. This is not something that's gonna happen in twelve weeks with a therapist. Oh, totally, totally, totally. I I think that's very important to remember.

We hope you're enjoying this episode of our podcast. We work very hard to maintain high quality content for the show. To take an even deeper dive and support the show, join our listener community for access to exclusive content. Practical tools and resources supporting gender and identity exploration. We're so grateful to our sponsor, Gen Spec. an international organization which offers an alternative to WPAT.

Providing a range of education, resources, and supports to anyone impacted by gender distress, GenSpect unites many different organizations globally and gives voice to thousands of previously untold stories. For more info, Visit Genspect.org. And thank you to our sponsor, Geta. Geta is an association of therapists who believe that in Experiencing gender related concerns ought to be a good idea. whole personal pro

We connect like-minded clinicians, provide educational resources and training, and help people with gender dysphoria find the right help. Visit Geta at genderexploratory.com. And now back to the conversation.

Um I I want to bring up kind of another angle of this which you and I were t talking about before. Um So many parents and l let's say like observers of this gender thing with youth from very early on have been saying this is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong. Okay, and then we have very crucial

characters in the story, this entire story, of people who are like, Oh no, I did this gender affirming thing. I did it to hundreds of kids and now I'm realizing it was wrong and I'm here to tell my story. Yeah. I will be in full transparency, honest, that I feel really conflicted about what to do with this. I mean, on one hand, there's a very rational part of me that says

You know, we have to understand this was a medical scandal. Everybody was wrapped up in it. We have to have open arms for all of the people who. you know, were brave enough to recognize what they did wrong. They didn't fall into the Oedipal trap. They were honest with themselves. They came forward and they're telling these stories from in the trenches. You know, like they're telling the actual stories of these clinics and these case.

And a part of me is like, it's a complicated role to become a hero after you've done something that you admittedly recognize was really damaging. And it's just complicated and I I think we just need to give that some space. And I I've I'm really conflicted about how to experience I am too I am too. I think it's it's really difficult. I wasn't there, I wasn't in a gender clinic. I do know when I found out about it, I just thought, No, no, I couldn't be.

I don't know what it's like to work in a clinic. I've never worked in a clinic with lots of other therapists if you follow me. So I I I I I can imagine'cause I've worked in children's home where Stuff was going on that I wasn't happy with. I remember I just wasn't happy with the way things were, and I left.

You know, I I that's what I did. I left. I I looked at it, tried to change it, didn't get anywhere, left. Now it wasn't quite the level of of of nothing like the level of of gender affirmation, but certainly I kind of got a taste of how I would respond in this. You know what I mean? W when you say a children's home, was it kind of like an orphanage or like foster care kind of situation? Uh residential, teenage boys.

And I just d I didn't like the derogatory attitude the um the the people who worked in the place and I didn't I didn't like uh I remember, you know, they'd be kind of giving them writing down the menu and they'd say, you know, they had a good dinner of, you know, meat and vegetables and it was actually like chicken, popcorn and chip.

That that was technically meat and vegetable. I know it's minor, but it used to bug me. No, I get what you're saying. Yeah. Yeah. The the notes were very, very polished to what was ye very And I was like, Wow, the language is so clever here about what's going down and what's going down is really quite unhealthy. So, yeah, I left.

And I I know, I think, enough of myself to know that if I was in the gender clinic I think I'd leave. And I think I'd leave sooner than an awful lot of people have left. It feels very uncomfortable for me to hear, you know, people who are in massive positions of responsibility with huge salaries and um worked in it for for many years. And like how long are you in it where

you think, well, now you're colluding with it. You know what I mean? How long is kind of now you've become part of the problem? You know what I mean?'Cause there's a certain the certain couple of years, I suppose, that you're figuring out what's going on. Uhhuh. Then there's a couple of years of you're definitely saying this is definitely wrong and then you've kind of gone into the problem. You've become part of the problem.

And it's not for me or you to kind of j judge that, but it is, I suppose, going to become very uncomfortable as years go by and we meet people who'll say, Oh, thank you for your work and it's great and I was ten years. Trans and kids and we'll go Oh Yeah. Yeah. It's really difficult. Yeah, it's really difficult. And I mean I think the truth is

there are far more people who are continuing to work in gender clinics and doubling down. And so I mean, i there's always like a a kind of compared to what question that we have to ask ourselves. And the truth is

On the on this planet there are a huge variety of people and personalities and backgrounds and types of people and people are gonna approach this differently. I think for me When I when I notice that a person in this situation who like used to be part of a gender clinic and has now left, when I sense that there's a real recognition, maybe like a sense of remorse, maybe like A real effort to try and be part of the solution. I think that's a really encouraging thing that I can observe.

And and, you know, part of me feels a little bit like I guess curious and a little bit agitated at people who are just like I'm gonna get out and never look back and not be part of the solution and not contribute and not share what I know to help rectify the situation. Like that to me I guess cause it's so It's frustrating for me, you know, just being honest. I I wonder like where are all the people who are like

Ooh, whoops, uh trans a bunch of kids. I'm just gonna get out and keep my head down. Like I I don't understand that. I mean if I was in that position I I I can imagine the impetus to do that. But I think that frustrates me and that's part of this Like what do we do as this disintegrates and falls apart?

Is anybody gonna be held accountable? Who should be held accountable? Like I think if somebody is willingly coming forward and saying, Oh my god, I'm realizing what we've done wrong and I wanna be part of the solution

Do we wanna hold those people accountable? I don't think so,'cause they're part of it's kind of like, you know, in an investigation if somebody is willing to be, you know, an informant or a witness, like they're trying to solve the problem so they get a lot of grace. Like this is an interesting question, you know? Um but are there going to be people who just

Oopsie Daisy just kind of back out of the situation and become invisible and what will happen to all of those people, you know? Well, you're right. I think if you're a whistleblower you hold a special datas. Even if you're a late s whistleblower, even if it takes you a little bit of time. If you're a whistleblower y you you are trying to rectify and you've already put yourself into a different position.

if you back out and silently move over to the eating disorder clinic or you move over to the um I don't know the the the the O C D clinic or whatever Rydyn ni'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd. as a psychologist or a psychotherapist. I think that um is pretty immoral. I think I I really do. I think especially if you've got a salaried position and you you had training.

And you lost your way, said I I think it's it's pretty it's pretty damning on your character. And some people will blow the whistle loud and clear like Jamie Reed really really did, you know what I mean? And it must have taken huge cou courage for her to do Yeah. Huge courage to do what she did. And I'm so glad she did. But I do think as the whistle blowers come out

Wouldn't you think more would come? And wouldn't you think anybody who's now in this position and who have heard the whistle blowers, they've like I said, there's a certain amount of time where you're almost morally okay. I'm gonna sound like a priest here, but like then there comes a bit of time where no, you've y you've stayed beyond decency. And um I think people

They it's amazing what they'll do for a salary. I think it's amazing what people will put up with for a salary. You know and uh by the way, you know, you mentioned those thirty five clinicians. It was thirty five clinicians in twenty nineteen had left the Tavistock, Jids at the Tavistock. And we now know through Hannah Barron's book

time to think that, you know, it was really, really shoddy what was going on there. And it's still ongoing but it'll be closing soon. I I know it's it's really it's producing much better work these days. Um, as far as I know, anyway. But those thirty five clinicians, we can only name a few of them. We couldn't name many of them. Right. Yeah. Where's the rest of them? Presumably they just moved on into different places quietly.

Yeah. even though David Bell spoke up, Marcus Evans spoke up, even though there was the book you know what I mean, it's amazing that they feel I wonder do they feel tainted for working there and just hope that everybody forgets it or do they just think I cannot think about that time. It was a hard time in my life and I can't think about

Or or maybe there are people who are like, no, this was totally mischaracterized and I think we did amazing work.'Cause I mean Hannah Barnes did interview some clinicians who kind of took that perspective. So yeah, I d you know, I don't think we can assume that everybody is like Oh no, we've made a mistake. Some people are are kind of like in this Oedipal trap where they're

You know, again, like we're calling it the edible trap. Maybe they genuinely only worked with clients who who were so much better after transitioning. I'm I'm willing to entertain that possibility. So am I. But kind of Some people are probably fooling themselves. Yeah, and I I do think there will be a huge amount of people who have worked in pretty mindless clinics that were transing a lot of people, uh, children, young, without thinking about it, without informed consent.

I think a lot of them will say, My patients my patients got good treatment. Whatever was going on that mine was good. That's the way we rationalise every single other decision we make. We think I I did the best with what I can. And you know, Maya Angelou said that lovely quote, you know, you did with the best w with what you knew at the time. Yeah. And now you know better, you'll do better type thing.

And it's also a rationalisation, isn't it? It's also a way of rationalising, you know. And yes, we do do the better the best we can. And sometimes the best is pretty weak and it's it's pretty cowardly.

Yeah, and I mean I think this is the thing. You know, we're we're all human beings. There there are various levels of Engagement, interest, energy, and the first. passion, dedication that you find in a field, you know, like you take you know, ten different teachers, for example, and you're gonna find some teachers who are just amazing and they touch touch the child's life and they can change the direc you know, direction of a young person's future.

And then there are other teachers that are just there for the paycheck, and then there's a variety of people in between. And of course the same is true for therapists. Therapists are not some kind of magically hand selected cohort of teachers. you know, careful geniuses. There's a variety of people and

You know, I'm I'm thinking about something you said earlier that I just want to raise um when you were working in the children's home. I used to work in a state supported living center in Texas and it was basically like a residential kind of campus. where people who intellectual disabilities lived there. And there were a variety of different kind of levels of

So there were some individuals who lived there who had to be fully like bathed, cared for, fed, teeth brushed by other people. And then there were individuals who were like my clients. who were ambulatory, they could like walk around on their own, they you know, had relationships, they talked, they they did all the like kind of normal things, but they all were intellectually disabled.

And they had a lot of complicated mental health issues. And I was hired to actually develop a counseling program. There was no counseling program in this facility. And anyway, I was there for a couple of years and there were a lot of things that I noticed which I started to feel uncomfortable with.

Stuff like what you described, like you know, if there was let's say some sort of an issue with a a client or a resident, the paperwork that had to be written up would be written in such a way to really um make the staff seem like they were completely not in the fault and it was the client's fault. Well vice you know, things like that. The language. Very clever language.

Yeah, and there was psychiatrists on staff and like I thought a lot of my clients were over medicated to be, you know, a little bit more manageable for their staff because the staff were all Totally like overworked. kind of un not qualified to really be dealing with the complexity of issues that were part of their job. And then sometimes, you know, if we had residents who

let's say we're sent to the psych hospital for like a really acute situation, they'd come back even more medicated, like walking zombies almost. And our staff would be like, oh my God, I feel so sad for so and so. Look how medicated they made her. So There's always a question of like relative to what. And then just one other thing I want to say about this. A lot of our clients had really aggressive behaviors. Like I was physically attacked by a client.

And I was it was terrifying. I mean, it was physically assaulted. And some of these clients had like sexual assault charges and like really complicated things. And it's like, were they living the most ideal life on this campus? Well, compared to what? If they weren't there, some of them would be homeless. Some of them would be in jail, some of them for sure would be drug addicts, some of them would have been trafficked into sex work. Like I know a hundred percent that would have

Because some of these girls were incredibly innocent and naive and didn't understand like anything that's going on around them. So They lived amongst their friends. They had relationships. They were cared for. They were fed. They had their own bedrooms. Each person had their own room and they they they lived a life that was Pretty good compared to the alternative. And so when I when I think about that, I could be accused of being part of this edible trap, right? Like

Just justifying the over-medication of her patients because she's thinking about their homelessness. But in reality, like on planet Earth, that is that is the choices that they. c kind of could have had laid out for their lives. And maybe if all of them had incredibly wealthy families, they could afford to go to some super specialized

But these are people who come from like a variety of backgrounds. Some of those clients actually were born with deformities and their parents dropped them off as babies and drove away and never came back.

So what are the alternatives for those people? Now, I say this just because I think there are a lot of affirmative clinicians and parents and all kinds of people who say if I hadn't affirmed my clo my child would have done this or the child would have done that or And and these are real things that we all kind of tell ourselves to try and explain less than ideal

Circumstances, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Well what you you what you brought up has really reminded me of, you know, wha what replaced lobotomy? And, you know, Walter Friedman's great, great solution of lobotomy was heavy psychiatric drugs. And that sedated people. So we moved from lobotomy to really heavy drugs.

that literally turn people, like you say, walking zombies. Um some people are horrified by that. But it was hardly better than getting a an ice pick and putting it through your eye to to kind of pick at your brain, which is what the lobotomy was doing.

But um it's very interesting when you'd start thinking about well who who are some of these people sedating? Some of them are very violent and when you're violent at six it's fine, but when you're violent and you're a a a twenty six year old man because of whatever your challenges, well then society has to make these hard decisions.

And yeah, we could rationalise it all we want, but we also have to make the decisions and I I I don't think we have any option. So I I think it's a fair enough rationalization, I think. Yeah. Um yeah, I remember like hearing about uh in the Med Megan McArdles podcast, Russ Roberts, the guy who was interviewing her, and it was really good and he was talking about these dementia pa patients who just scream all day. Literally scream all day.

Yeah. I and I could see how the workers say, N no, they have to be sedated or I can't work here. I I c I can see how that would happen. And when they brought that up in the podcast, another thought I had was how how is that person who's screaming feeling? I mean, are you happy if you're literally screaming all day? So i it these are very complicated issues and I mean I think this is why

I think this is why you and I are trying to put forward alternatives'cause like everything we've talked about so far is is something that comes up in the context of there's no alternative. You know, like

Uh when there was no medication, lobotomies were used. I mean, it's not a great solution, right? But it's always like, well, what else can we do? And I think that's that's as we know we've, you know, interviewed the affirmative clinicians. That's what they say. Well, if we didn't do this the alternative was a miserable life or self mu self castration or something like that, like when we talked to Anne Lawrence. Oh that's why I think the whole point is like we have to put forward

alternative possibilities or else people can just keep saying, Well, if we didn't, then it would have been a catastrophe. And they were even talking, I think, in that podcast about something about like Nuclear war or something. Yeah. And decisions being made and and the justification being, had we not done this. so and so million people would have died. And it's like, well, how do you know that actually?

We don't know. It was the justification for for releasing the atom bomb that a million Americans would have died. And then they went on to talk about political leaders by and large never put their hands up and say we made a mistake. They they never say that mass bombing, that that bloodshed, that war was a mistake.

That never really happens in in real time. It might happen as the histor the analysts in history declare that was wrong or this was wrong. But in real time it doesn't happen. And in the meantime We have people uh uh in our experience right now in real time making decisions that could end up being massive, massive regrets, watching people make and parents watching children make what they believe is a massive

decision that will be very regrettable, whether they admit it to themselves or not. And it it's it's a very difficult thing to behold, but you've got to on some level I think we've got to be aware of we we have free will and when you're an adult the the freedom to do as you wish without hurting other people is is the key freedom. It it really is. So I do think people like Anne Lawrence

would transition. She we had her on the podcast for those who don't know, and she's a trans woman. She's in her seventies. She sh she would transition no matter what. She never let it go. She was gonna transition, I think, one way or the other. Now we have to kinda put into in society a th uh make sure that this is Accounted for within society so that a It's it's not causing an imposition.

on other people. Like it has to be on some level kind of everybody has to kind of everybody ha uh the risk assessment has to be on the world as such and the impact assessment has to be kind of equally faced, but it's it's very, very tricky. Because medical transition is not just a personal choice of something somebody does. It's also a choice within society. It's a societal choice as well.

I don't think we talk about that enough, but I think it's it's true, it's a it's impacting society. Well lots of things we do in.

Yeah, it's like you're you're having like a debate with yourself. You know what I mean? And that's the way these that's the way these conversations go. I mean I think if if we're being honest with ourselves, these are just not simple. These are just not simple stuff. Solutions, there's no simple answer. And it's it's it's I can I can understand. why people have to double down.

And I can understand why people might think that we are refusing to see the benefit in some cases. Like I mean, to be able to hold the tragic cases and success cases at the same time.

It's not easy because it kind of forces you to argue with both both sides of the debate per se. Um And then there are people who who who are who are kind of lightly doubling down is is doubling down or just maintaining'cause they're thinking I'm not going back so I'm just maintaining and I'm going to continue in this in this complex state and in a way it gives you a kind of cognitive itch.

Because you're continuously and I can see it a lot of as we were talking earlier, Sasha, a lot of our listeners are trans. And they they understand I'm very glad they are, but they unders they have kind of understandably ended up in a place where they think about gender so much. Because of their decision to transition. It's become the major player in their life as opposed to anything else. You know what I mean? Their friends or their relationships or whatever.

And I can see why, but this kind of cognitive itch of it's like the brain is a problem solving organ and when we have uh a a a kind of unresolved State happiness. We keep on going back to it, going back to it, like a chest problem. We keep on going back to it. Yeah. Yeah. Hence I could see why if you're in the middle of gender transition you just keep on going back, eat it up, everything to do with gender. Let me think about it, let me think about it.

'Cause you're trying to scratch the itch of an unresolved issue. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and I mean I I I'm glad you bring this up'cause this is something we were talking about a little bit before we started recording. If if s if you're somebody who's pretty self reflective and you're trying to understand and experience your And all of the narratives that are available to you.

Don't really land. They don't really hit the spot. They don't really scratch the edge. You're going to keep searching for an understanding. You know, unless you get to a point. Some people get to a point where they say, You know, I I don't need to know why. Like I just know that this is what's working for me and that's fine. And that's great too, right? But some people are really seekers. They're they're deeply introspective and they wanna understand and

Um I mean this came up because we we wanted to read some reviews, which maybe we'll kind of end the podcast this way. Yeah. Um And I've noticed because we look at the YouTube comments, we have some incredibly dedicated viewers and podcast listeners.

who comment on every single episode and it's like you know we're starting to get to know them and they're often very very encouraging and a lot of these listeners like you said are trans and I think they're people who feel like For some reason or another I'm having this experience

I'm interested to understand myself better. And a lot of the other narratives out there kind of fall flat. I don't think I'm like this mentally ill person who's delusional, like the way some right-wing people say. And I don't think it's just um this completely neutral thing to celebrate that is only problem because of transphobia. Like there's something else going on here and I wanna understand it. So Anyway, I I'm really I'm really touched that we have

So many different kinds of listeners from all parts of this kind of experience around gender. And so maybe we can read a couple of our reviews. Okay. Yeah. Go on, read up a few. Okay, so this first one says one of the best resources out there. Such thoughtful, well-reasoned, and compassionate take from two very intelligent women. This is a fantastic resource for anyone who has a transgender or gender questioning person in their life. That is from Monster Missa.

On Apple Podcasts. So thank you. That was a five star review. Well done. Do you have them pulled up? No, I'll I'll wait. I was gonna I thought I was gonna come advisely You go to the I'll read this next one. Um Oh, I don't have the full review here visible, but I'll read part of it. Informative, humane, and nuanced. Five stars. Thank you for shedding light on the ideological gender stranglehold. Despite good intentions by some.

That is setting back gains that gay people and women have made over the past few decades. I'm grateful for your courage and I'm sure you're getting some blowback. As some of these one star non reviews. something or other. So unfortunately I can't click on read full review, but this person is kind of defending us against the one star reviews.

But I think we should even read the one star reviews. There's a couple of them here. Do you see that transphobia review? Do you wanna read it? No, uh you I'm just reading another one. Even the face even in the face I just made me google. Even in the face of a manic guest shouting and clicking at them. These two stay calm and address the guest, ask thoughtful questions and put together a riveting podcast on a very difficult subject. I have a feeling I know what w what episode that was. Yeah.

I think that's a reference to our James Cantor episode, which I wrote a long tweet thread about it. I really enjoyed having James on, but some of our listeners were protective over us. They felt like And g I can I say, you know, some people are a character and James Cantor is definitely a character and when you meet them you kind of there's often a moment where you go, What?

Uh and then you go with the character, you understand what they're like. And I don't mean a character in a in a dismissive way, that they're a very sp Idiosyncratic person. They're they they have their way, and I would say he's definitely shouting clicking at Take out another review there. Go ahead. Okay. So this one says transphobia. That's the title of the review. It has one star.

Just from the descriptions, it looks like this podcast tries to put on a pseudo intellectual veneer on their transphobic ideology, pretending to come from all sides, but mostly promoting anti trans. Okay, and I'll read another kind of one star review, but I don't have the full review. Uh podcast about the complex topic of gender identity from a simplistic binary mindset and a narrow minded point of view.

This podcast engages listeners in a very biased examination of gender identity as a whole, pushing anti trans ideas with misconstrued science. and a perverse understanding of something. I'm so sorry I don't have the full review here. I've got I've got a full one star review in front of me. Okay. These these podcasts purport to if offer impartial advice around gender dysphoria.

and transgender issues. However, it appears to be mostly gender critical propaganda, more typically promoted by religious conservative groups rather than by the vast majority of the scientific and medical and neurological community. I find the The whole premise to be deeply misleading and seem to invalidate transgender library.

I have to say the jump to religious at this stage it feels a bit disingenuous by now. Oh my god. At the start I thought, oh god, they're calling me religious, but now all these years later and they're still saying gender critical is religious. Yeah, and I mean I think people are not really listening. to to us. Listen to me. Listen to me. But I mean to call to call our podcast religious is so far from even remotely the truth. That's r it's just it's just patently ridiculous.

And to say it's simplistic, I think we get pretty deep. I don't think it's simplistic what we do here, but anyway, there there's some positive reviews too. Balanced and informative. I've now listened to a few episodes of this series in tandem with a couple of other podcasts in an attempt to understand this phenomenon. This series has proved informative, balanced, and entertaining. I now feel like I could discuss the topic with a decent grasp of the terminology and background.

So I think that's wonderful and thank you. I mean if if you are a listener who doesn't like our podcast. you know, feel free to suggest topics that we should explore or guests. I mean, I'm open to I'm open to having on people who have a different perspective. Unfortunately, and and we've talked about this before. People who are highly highly ideological don't seem to be interested in having any kind of dialogue. I mean, we had Steensman DeVries on and I would say they're probably for

perspective, but we engaged in a respectful conversation and it was fine. So um if you if you don't like our show and you have ideas on things that we're misrepresenting, you know, let us know. But I I think Part of something I pride myself in is really trying to genuinely understand the arguments coming from the affirmative side. So I feel like I have a pretty good grasp of it. But if

If we're wrong, let us know. It's kind of interesting um Freud would have a flea field day or an analyst would have a field day on us'cause we started this episode with the Oedipus trap. Talking about how we rationalize all our decisions, how we finish the episode with let's read out reviews and console ourselves that we're brilliant. No, you're right. Okay, so basically you're saying we take the whole episode and put it in the dustbin and just move on. This is never going to be published.

I see it I see one nice one here. They say um the guests they have bring their knowledge of this subject and they're allowed to speak openly about gender and trans issues. It's informative and wide ranging. All parents of teenage and younger children should be listening to them as they take you through the stages of trans identity to transition in an open and honest way. They speak in a respectful way about people who've transitioned and give a voice to detransition.

Well I hope we do. We certainly try to do all that and that that's our plan. I'm sure we make as many m many mistakes as the next person, but I suppose the most important thing is if we keep on bringing on guests And especially when they don't agree with us, it'll be good for us and it'll be good for everybody involved. You know what I mean? The more we bring in echo chamber guests,

You know, it's it's fine, but the more we bring on different perspectives the better. So if if you are listening and think you could blow our minds with some insight that we haven't thought of, I I'd be delighted. Absolutely to nice to have them on. Yeah, I think that's a great tip. And you know, I I I find that even when we have guests on who genuinely or generally agree with us, there are always areas of

disagreement there are always actually areas of like, oh I never thought of it that way. So there's always deeper we can go, even if we for the most part are aligned with a lot of our guests. So I I'm interested in deep conversations. I don't care if we agree or don't agree. I want the conversation to be really deep and thoughtful. So I'm very open. Yeah, t thought provoking conversations. So long as they're thought provoking, that's good enough.

Yeah. Alright Stella, well I guess we'll sign it off here. Okay, catch again. Alright, bye.

Thanks for joining us this week on Gender, a wider lens. Listener support means a lot to us. If you enjoy the show, please like and subscribe on iTunes. For more information visit widerlenspod.com. There you'll learn about joining our listener community. Our discussions are for educational purposes and are not intended as a substitute for mental health services.