Katie r h Garden Line does not necessarily endorse any of the products or services
advertised on this program. Welcome to Katie r H Garden Line. With Skip Richter's shoes crazy handing the gas gas can you want a shrimp, you just watch him as worlds the gas gas can you many Gona takes the sepotas in bringing the basses like gas began, you didst club of backing, not a sun glasses a gas the sun beam and bring in the gasses and gas can you jam starting out of treating bringing in the gases gas came you did? Happy than he so clean. Welcome back to garden Line. We are glad
you're here and listening. We're a gardening call in show. We're about to take an hour though where we're going to visit with someone from thet PTSD Foundation of America and Camp Hope, and so if you have a call about veterans, about Camp Hope or the PTSD Foundation, feel free to call. If it's a gardening call, would you hold it and we'll take you in the last hour beteen nine and ten, Thank you very much for that. I'm going to be speaking with David Malsby of the PTSD Foundation and Camp Hope.
David, welcome, Thank you sir. Good to have you here. It's always great to be here. Appreciate the opportunity very much. All Right, that's good. Well, boy, there's a lot to talk about today, and I'm telling you I have I've seen a lot of materials that you guys provide from PTSD Foundation, and uh, it almost wears you out looking at all the accomplishments and the history and everything. But why don't we just start off? Tell me how did you get interested in this? What made you,
you know, throw your life into this particular program. You know, my background is pastoring, and I had gotten to a point in my just in my life's journey, I wanted to kind of get my hands a little dirtier than what was going on in church. And I came across, through a friend, an opportunity to be a part of what was happening at this organization which was actually started as another with another name and to raise money for
a national organization. And then he wanted to switch it over and become what he called boots on the ground. Okay, So when I heard what was going on in the veteran community, time two thousand and nine stats were one of every three out homeless person in Houston was a military vet, So like, why are there so many homeless vets? And they weren't all Vietnam beites. Those guys were already coming home from Iraq in Afghanistan, We're already finding
themselves homeless. So that combined with some of the suicide statistics that just became quite obvious. This is a great opportunity to try to make a big difference. Well, we will get into those statistics here in a bit. I think it's important because it's eye opening. You know, as I was thinking about the issue, it's when you hear the real story of what's going on
with vets, it just it's a load. It's a weight to think about what it must be, what they're going through and what they're doing, and then you look at the stats that's taking their own lives or things like that, and it's just a it's a heavy. But we want to understand the full extent of the problem because that helps us more and more appreciate what can be done and what is being done. So i'd like you to start off if you would tell me a little bit about the PTSD Foundation of America and
Camp Hope. In two thousand and nine, we kind of hit the streets in Houston trying to help some veterans deal with post traumatic stress. It was really just helping one individual out of time, and then when we were able to start helping a few, we started forming our groups. And that's really our DNA is the peer to peer and support groups. So we were running
three different groups across Houston. Then in twenty twelve we open Camp Hope and that's the residential portion of what we do, and today we bring in veterans from all branches of the military all across the country. We've got about nearly one hundred and twenty veterans living on our campus right now and they're there anywhere from six to nine months, sometimes up to and over a year, just depending on multiple factors that are going on in their life. But it's a
very intense program. It's all at no charge to the veteran of their families. That's amazing. We live in the greatest community in the world. Folks
who understand takes more than a bumper sticker to support the troops. That's true, and that's why we're able to do what we do well, that is that is good the camp hope and I think you have folks that come through there are about six to twelve months they spend at least, yes, so program itself is the six to eight months, six to nine months, the transition parts where it can get a little longer, some of the guys dealing
with multiple factors, sometimes felonies or other issues that are going on in their life. Trying to get you know, what's your go forward? How can you get a job and a career that can support you your family if your family's still intact right. But that's a big part of what we do is how do you go forward from this? Well, tell us a little bit about how a veteran might be involved with the program and what that might look
like. I know you encounter folks that you guys go out and find out about and you hunt them down to find them to begin to bring that hope. But what are some ways that the veterans end up with the PTSD Foundation. Well, I kind of call us kind of the last stop for many guys. They've burned every bridge by the time they get to us. In the most part, they find out about us because a family member or a friend reaches out to them someone they served with came through the program and encourages
them to check us out. But we also get guys from you know, the psychle ward at the VA. We get guys from veterans' courts all across the country, so they come to us from legal systems. It's it's a little bit of everything. But like anything else, you know, word of mouth is always the number one way they hear about us, but typically you know, they're in a bad spot where they wouldn't be willing to come to Camp Hope. Yeah. Well, we got about a minute left where we're
going to take a break here and we will come back. I gouts so many questions, where do we begin for a long time. That's right, that's right, I am spoke. I am speaking today with David Malsby of the PTSD Foundation of America and Camp Hope, and we're talking about veterans, and when we come back, we're going to talk about some of the issues that veterans deal with and how Camp Hope addresses those issues because they have a
number of really outstanding programs. Uh. And so that's will would be when we get back here. In just a minute. Our phone number if you'd like to call and talk to David about something related to PTSD or Camp Hope or or whatever, our phone number is seven one three two one two five eight seven four seven one three two one two fifty eight seventy four. Welcome back to Garden Line. We're glad you're listening this hour. We are visiting
with David Malsby. David is with the PTSD Foundation of America and of course the Camp Hope Project. David, could can you help us understand a little bit what is PTSD? I mean, I know what the words post traumatic stress disorder, but that's a little vague for a lot of folks. What does that mean? What does that look like? We describe it as a natural response to a very unnatural trauma slash situation. But we deal with combat
related specifically. Anybody can have PTSD that's experienced trauma, and if you've lived for a minute, you've experienced trauma. But in our world with combat related you take an eighteen year old kid that grew up in small town Texas and all he knows is Friday night football and mom or grandma dragging to church on Sunday and kind of you know, a fairly sheltered life at least, sees what happens with nine to eleven, decides he wants to sign up and go
get some revenge. It goes to another part of the world, sees a part of the world that has zero zer value for life, completely different you know world outlook than what we have here, Sees what he sees has to do what he does. Loses so much while he's there. And it's not just those who were to his left or to his right, but just the sense of value, the sense of right and wrong, sense of morals,
and just because of the situation. Yes, then they come home. Now that you've got a twenty three year old kid that's been to war and is greatly altered in every aspect of his life, he can't go back to being who he was. Yeah, so he tries to go to school and then you know, all the guys he went to high school with of all graduated from college and they're going on starting their career and he's staying in line with you know, seventeen year old kid who's complaining that his latte wasn't made right
and he's still got buddies back in Iraq. He just feels so disconnected from the world, doesn't belong and then the hyper anxiety starts to set in. They don't know what to do with that, so they start self medicating. The self medicating compounds things, makes things worse. Me more and more self medicating, they start to isolate. And that's the thing that leads us to
some of the very dark statistics of what's going on. But if you just you just think of an eighteen year old kids being on patrols for a year in Iraq, and every trash bag on the side of the road may not be a trash bag, It may be an ied or the kid approaching may have something else trapped to them. Every possible thing is a threat not only to them but to the guy again to the left or to the right. He comes home and he comes out of the front yard and there's a trash
bag at his neighbor's yard. Well, his mind has not readjusted and rewired itself to it's trash day, right, and that's your neighbor's trash. It to your to your family. But they can't go there. That mind just doesn't rewire itself back to You're in a different place at a different time. Wow. So that gives you maybe a little bit of a picture of what they are dealing with. But again, a lot of it's you know, lost people, they lost in what they call a wounded heart, moral injury.
Yeah, there's a number of factors that go on. Well, and those of us around don't fully understand that and don't understand the effects and that you can't just say, hey, come on, man, shake it off, let's go. You know, this is something, as you said, rewired and that's issue, and it leads to a lot of things. And I know homelessness is a major it's very common among disabled or vet well that too, but veterans that have the PTSD struggle that they're gone through. Could
you talk a little bit about some of thisatistics. We'll go a little on the I'll say on the dark side here for just a moment, because I think understanding what the PDSD foundation is all about and why it's so important, it helps to just understand this isn't people walking around that have a troubled mind. It leads to some pretty rough stuff, it does. And one of the statistics that is most often talked about is the suicide statistic and what's going
on in the veteran community. There are so many others legal issues, home issues, you know, divorces and all those kinds of things. Those numbers are quite higher in the veteran community than they are in the civilian community, but particularly on the suicide numbers. So a few years ago the number became fairly well known in America's twenty two and if anybody heard of anything at all,
they'd heard the twenty two veteran of the day committing suicide. Rember was basically a guest by the VA. They have since ratcheted that number down to under seventeen. But at the same time, a study was done by another nonprofit that partnered up with the University of Alabama and Duke University. They did a study of eight states and every single death certificate of those eight states across
a five year period. That's a lot of death to study, and what they came up with is if what was true in those eight states was true across the border in all fifty we're losing more like forty four veterans every single day to their own hands. Now, I'm not in a fight with anybody over what the number is I definitely belie in what we do and this is what we do all day, every day. It's much closer to the forty
four than it is to seventeen. Wow, that is amazing. Our fight is to say everyone that we can and we got to do everything we can to do it right, and that is really important. I want to visit a little bit about some of the programs that you guys offer. I know we have the Camp Hope and if you want to go a little deeper into
that, that's good. But the other things, like you mentioned, I believe you talked about the groups that are like there's people that are like a mentor that comes in with the veterans and just kind of walk us through kind of the big picture of how does Camp Hope now take this person and try to turn a life around will It is a peer to peer program, so it's one that who's come to the program turn around, hoping the next vet
come to the program, and that's our mentors. In addition to that, we do have licensed counselors on our campus and our veterans on our campus. The counselor at least once a week individually and in addition to the period of peer time and the counseling time. They're in classes throughout the day, and those classes are run from everything from self awareness, emotional regulation, anger management, a wide array of DNA with the coping skills, a holistic approach to
how to learn and we do deal with the whole person. Is how we describe that everything. And that's one thing that separates us from, for instance, the VA. We're not afraid to ask the question which usually you know, most human beings do after a trauma. Where was God? Why did God let this happen? Why are there starving people in Africa? And all these very natural questions. We don't answer it for them. We're just gonna, we're gonna, we're going to ask this question and we're going to work
on this until you come up with your answer. I can see how even disillusionment with causes and what not can kind of be part of the whole deal. Well, it's a very complex issue. So here in Houston, for instance, this last weekend, everybody wants to talk about, you know, we got to eradicate the stigma with mental health. And we say that on one hand, and then we do things on the other that say the opposite. So in Houston this past week there was a news story of our sheriff's
department going to address the situation. Individual steps out of the house shooting, and the sheriff's deputies had to kill that individual and they had no choice. I mean they had no choice. But the very first thing out of the sheriff's mouth was he might have been a vet and he might have had PTSD. Like, okay, So now everybody who has PTSD, all of a sudden, yeah, that's what they do. That's just it's not necessarily intentioned.
It's just people's natural response when they hear, oh, veteran PTSD starts shooting at people. That's what happens when you have PTSD in your veteran. No, it's not, it's the exact opposite of what happens. Now. He may be a veteran, he may have PTSD, and he may have been wearing tennis shoes. None of those things are what causes something like that to happen. Much more likely is probably drug induced. I don't know the
individual, I don't think about the situation. There's been very little set on it since then, But just saying those words and it being broadcast on every news television news station in the city. Anyone that's struggling and thinks maybe I should go check it out. They're going to no way because if that's what they think it is, I am not going to talk to anybody about this.
That is that is interesting. Yeah, I think it's an interesting Well, it's an interesting fact that veterans going through PTSD the life most in danger is their own because they're more much more likely to take their own life than like you were just talking about the news story and someone speculating about it, and that is that's kind of a I don't know, that kind of hit me a little bit of a surprise. Hadn't thought of it that way.
We are going to talk a little bit more. We're gona take a little break here in a minute, but I want to I want to talk to you about some of the funding. How does funding work for the PTSD Foundation of America. How would somebody get involved? But you know, how where does where does your support come from? Because you don't charge a veterance. I mean, imagine the guy that's already going through this and his family which is taking the brunt of it too. Uh, And then ask them to
pay for it. So how do we come up with some funds? We got about a minute and a half and we'll tak okay, sure. And it's community driven hundred percent uh. And it's everything from uh, you know, someone going online and buying some stuff from Amazon or Walmart and having it shipped to us. I mean basic stuff. I tell people all the time, whatever it takes to run your house inside and out. That includes toilet paper and light bulbs and batteries and ant killer and fertilizer, whatever takes froun
your house, we need at times about one hundred and twenty. So that kind of gives you just a basic idea of what's going as far as just the stuff that's needed. We also tell folks we get something from the electric company every month and it is not surprisingly a thank you note, it's a bill and it's a big bill. So there's a lot of ways to get involved. But there's some folks even in the garden line world. Now some plant Food does a month long deal every month every year two dollars from every
turf star bag plants for all seasons. They've donated a lot of material for us for our garden that we have on our campus. Cool. So there's a lot of different ways to get involved. There's a lot of on here hours that happen on our campus, so that's cool. Want to I want to talk about that and more a little bit when we come back. You're listening to garden Line. I'm talking to David Malsby with the PTSD Foundation and
Camp Hope. And if you have any questions about that, and you want to ask David some questions regarding the PTSD and what their work that they do, phone number is seven one three two one two five eight seven four. We'll be right back. Welcome back to garden Line. We are visiting this hour with David Malsby of the PTSD Foundation of America and Camp Hope. We're talking about all kinds of things related to the issue of PTSD and what the
PTSD Foundation is doing to help our veterans that are going through that. Uh, David, we've got a phone call from Paul and Tomball. We're going to take that. Hello, Paul, how are you this morning? Doing good? How are you about yourself well as well? Thank you? That's good. So I wanted to call and just say, as a veteran myself. I'm very thankful that we have these organizations like Camp Hope. I suffer from anxiety and depression and to get care at the VA is very difficult.
And there's one thing that people don't I think, realizes you have the medical side at the VA and you have the mental health side, and they don't work together. So I have chronic pain issues that sometimes it's hard to deal with, which aggravates these mental health conditions, and the care at the VA is slow. I mean I've waited months and months and months before for referrals, actually not before. It's consistently happening. And it's not a money issue
because the VA has tons of money. They get money all the time, where Camp Hope has to ask for it. And I just want people to think about this, because we wouldn't need Camp Hope, we wouldn't need all these other organizations if the VA stood up and did what they were supposed to do. But the VA has continuously failed veterans over and over again, and unfortunately our government they just keep putting band aids on it. But who do
they put in charge of those band aids? The same VA that keeps failing us. So I really truly as a veteran, I appreciate gearly what you are doing for my fellow veterans that I've served with are the ones that are coming out after I've served. Well, Paul, thank you. I'd like David to comment on some of that. Thank you very much for those words. Yeah, and Paul, thank you for calling, and thank you obviously for you know, all of our veterans. We have a great admiration appreciation
for everyone who takes the oath and serves our country. So we're very, very grateful. And I hear these stories all the time dealing with the VA, and you know, I could go on a rent doesn't help. We have a staff member at Camp Pope that basically their full time job is to sit on hold with the VA as we are trying to take care of the veterans who come into our care. So if you take, for instance, you've got a guy coming from Atlanta, Georgia to come into our program.
He's going to live here for up to and maybe even over a year. All of his information, all of his medical care has to transfer from his VA to this one. Then you got to see doctors and it is just a non stop problem. But I will say this, and you're right. You talked about you know, the VA and its failures, and if they were doing their job fully, needs for organizations like ours wouldn't exist. But
that's true of any nonprofit in the world. But the bottom line is you and I, every day, all day can do what needs to be done more effectively and much more efficiently than the United States government can. And I love America, you know I'm not, don't get me wrong. The people can always do it better than the government can, and they can always do it more efficiently. And so that's why nonprofits have to exist no matter what
the cause. You know, I'm listening to you talk. I'm thinking about the fact that because you guys do focus on peer support, you do focus on the one on ones and getting people together. You know, you can't accomplish that with some major government program. That one on one I use the term walk alongside somebody to help someone. There's no way that any big program can just solve that. And it's every veteran is an individual and that individual
needs individual help as well. Absolutely, and that's that's you know, that's who we are. We can't do it for you, but we have done it. The guys on our staff that are doing them mentoring, they've all done it, so their proof that it can be done. When you're sitting there thinking no, it can't, well you're looking at a guy who's proven you wrong. It can be done right, and we'll walk that journey with you, and we'll teach you everything that we've learned, and that includes the
wins and the losses. Well, I think your Camp Hope now, I believe it served almost two thousand veterans since it was started. When we look at the number of people that you guys serve on a one to one basis and the warrior groups, the numbers are really impressive. But at the same time, I think about how many more are out there that could be benefited. Yeah, you know, I tell people this occasionally. It's speaking, particularly here in the Houston area. There's a lot going on in the veteran
community that's troublesome. The one thing here in the Houston area particularly that physically literally makes me ill is when I hear about a Houston area veteran becoming a statistic and then finding out they had never heard of Camp Hope, Like, how in the world, How in the world is someone in the shadow of Camp Hope being lost to suicide and never having heard about us. So that's one reason why I'm grateful for the opportunity here today. There's a mother,
there's someone going to church this morning. They're on their way and they're listening to the show and there's going to be someone three seats down from them,
and you know, their son's been to war and they're struggling. Tell them you heard about Camp Hope, and we may or may not be able to help him, but if we can't, we'll connect them with somebody who can, right And you know, having that Hope in the name, it's just so significant because when we lose Hope, and you described it earlier, the kid came back from fighting and the things he goes through, when your mind goes from that thing of everything's okay, I'm in charge here, I can
do this to this is a dead end street that that's the street that takes someone to a point of suicide and just destroys all the hope that they would have. I really like the the fact that you guys do the one on one and when we come back, maybe you could talk a little bit about the transition team process, any outreach groups, support groups and things like that that are all part of that actually touching the person with another person love to
We're going to take a break right now. Our phone number is seven one three two one two fifty eight seventy four. We got one more segment here with David, and if you would like to give us a call about this issue we're talking about, feel free to do so. Welcome back to Garden Line. Glad to have you today. We are in our last segment here
with David Malsby of the PTSD Foundation of America and Camp Hope. And David, I would like you to talk a little bit about some of that person to person and programs and approaches that you guys take to help people in this situation. Sure, the processes includes a number of people, So for instance, I'll just walk you through one individual kind of helps people understand it.
A marine veteran facing multiple felony counts stood before the judge for the sixteenth time and he finally asked the judge, is there anything you can do to help me? And they found out about Camp Hope. The judge checked us out. We set up the system with them as we have with other court systems.
Our transition team or our outreach team work with a judge. Then we have the transition team to get them in handles, flights and all the just the logistics of everything you need to move here for a year, come into the program. Then there's the peer to peers, so you're signed a veteran, a mentor. You go through this program classes, your rounded by nothing
but fellow combat vets, so everybody shared experiences completing the program. Then you go into the transition program and that can be you know, you're going to go to school and earverybuddy off the g I feel you're going to start a new career. You know, what are you going to do? This individual particularly had had a job waiting for him. His boss was gracious enough that he let him come back to his construction job. Well he went back.
Now here's the cool thing. His wife had left ing in that whole process. But when he went back, she dumped the kids off with him. So he not only went home a healthier man and back to a job, he went to raising his three children. And that's to me is like the ultimate. Like everybody wants to be a part of saving a life, which you know if you could say, at the end of the day, you've been a part of that, that's about as good as a day can get.
Yeah. Sure, but what if you're not just saving him life, but you're putting a father back into their home a healthy father, And that's perfect, that's amazing and it's huge. And we think about the suffering of the PTSD individual and how to help them. But yeah, you're talking about a generation to come that's affected by this. You're talking about a spouse that the stress must be unbelievable on them as well, Which to that point,
I haven't brought this out yet, and I should have. But we not only run groups for our veterans, we also run groups for their family members and friends. So it can be really anybody that loves that veteran. It can be a friend, it can be a spouse, can be a parent, it can be a sibling, aunt, uncle, whoever is involved in
that veteran's life. To help them understand what happened to your loved one, and then how do you fully support them when they come home, rather than just enabling, because the enabling parent can sometimes be the greatest detriment imaginable. Right, So that's a big part of what we do. Is that is amazing. Your folks are really super well trained. I know the suicide prevention
training that you're I think ninety five percent of your employees go through. They call it what's safe Talk, But that I would think that having the training to know how to talk to someone who is in a PTSD suffering from a PTSD situation, that is that's really valuable because I don't know that what I would say would be helpful, right, And it causes a lot of people not to say thing because they're afraid they're going to say the wrong thing.
Yes, like, man, just just let them know you care. If you just let them know you care, you can say something that maybe isn't the best way to say it. But if they know you care, you're good. But there's two couple of things about that. One is that again that peer to peer. So when they we have a crisis line, so it can be a veteran that calls in. It could be a family member or a friend that calls in about a veteran in crisis. A combat vet
answered the phone, so there's that aspect of it. They have the shared experiences, so he knows exactly where that veterans is. He knows exactly where his mindset is, and he knows how to talk to him in that. But in addition to the shared experience, he has been trained in how to
de escalate situations, the safe talk, the assist suicide prevention training. They've received training in addition to what they go through at Camp Hope, so they know how to and I can over symphasize that for a veteran because if they like, I'm gonna call the VA and someone's just going to start reading answers off a script. Yeah, not with us. You're talking to someone who's
been to Afghanistan or someone who's been to Vietnam. But they've been to war and then they've been to Camp Hope and then they've received the training and they're here to help you well and they can't. Well. It's well named Camp Hope because while we talk about the spiral downward from coming back from active service, the hope of the way out of that is something that it's just so
encouraged. I mean, think about your own self and in a lot of ways, you've been in spots where you know, you look and it's like, is there even a future. I mean, this is this is it's all messed up, you know, and to have the hope that there can be and the hope that yes I can I don't have to live here and I don't have to keep going down to this. There's hope for that. That is gosh, that is so critical. And you guys are supported by
donations and things. What are some ways that people can give and be part of supporting such a great program. Well, there's as many wages as you can possibly imagine. It starts from if you're on social media, just like Facebook or Twitter or Instagram, just following us, re sharing the stories, retweeting them. Many many times someone will learn about us for the first time through social media posts. So that costs you absolutely nothing second to hit the
you know, retweet button, whatever it happens to be. Other ways volunteering, We have a ton of volunteer opportunities, especially at Christmas time. Okay, there are a lot of things going on at Camp Hope during Christmas, so we always need volunteers and all that information is available and how you can be a part of that at our website which is PTSD USA dot org.
And of course, you know again, some some folks can't necessarily write the check, but they can get people at their their civic club to have us come and speak, and or they can have us come and speak at their church, or their company can do a bake sale or a five K you know what. They do a lot of events for us, raising funds for us. So that's a big part of our support system right there. Well.
And and with you guys being a faith based organization, I suppose that any kind of a church, or doesn't to be a religious but any kind of a church could connect you with you guys, and that be part of their reaching out into the community. Absolutely, and it doesn't have to be something big. And we have a lot of people that just sign up twenty dollars a month and just hits the credit card every single month and that's how
they give. Is that's good, you know, David. When you talked about your own story from being a pastor to basically finding a way to just get down in the down and dirty with people that have almost one foot in the grave in terms of where their life is heading, it reminds me of a sign that used to be on the wall of a Christian counselor that I knew a real good fellow and he didn't want all the fluffy you know,
tell me your problems, I'll give you a quick answer. I mean, he was so in to getting in the down and dirty and helping people walking alongside him. And his science said this, It said, some people want to live within the sound of chapel bells. I'd rather run a rescue shop within a foot of hell. Have you heard that one? I have? And that's what I think about when I when I heard your story and see this going on. You guys, you guys have a rescue shop that is
well worth contributing to being a part of. And I would encourage everybody listening. P t S d USA dot org. P t S d USA dot org find out more about it, find out ways that you can give and just make that a part of you know. It's so cool when we think about veteran issues and I think, well, what can I do? You know what, I don't know any any veterans that are going through this. Well now you do. Now you know how you can help. You can
help individual veterans that are here in the Greater Houston area. David, thank you so much for coming in. This has been really enlightening for me. Thank you very much. I don't think we ever give out that trauma line, but it's eight seven seven seven one seven seventy eight seventy three eight seven seven seven one seven seventy eight seventy three seventy eight seventy and thank you very
much. Man, We're honored. Okay, eight one seven. I'm trying to write it at eighty seven seven seven one seven PTSD or seventy eight seventy three. Okay, Well, it's been great to have you on. We're going to take a little break here. When we come back from breaks, we'll be back to your calls about gardening our phone number seven one three two one two fifty eight seventy four. And when we come back, we'll get
to the calls right away. I've got a few other things I want to add about gardening, appropriate comments for the seasons and tips and things like that. Remember that if you would like, you can go to my website and download the free lawn Care Guide and the lawn Pest Disease and we'd management guide there at skip our gardeningwith Skip dot com Gardening with Skip dot Com, So check those out, Maybe turn break here would be a good time to check
it out. They're free to print up and just hang on to so when you go shopping for fur gliser, you know exactly what's happening. Mm hmm