Broadcasting from Studio A Here at proven Winners, Color Choice Shrubs. It's time for the Gardening Simplified Podcast, YouTube and radio show with Stacy Hervilla, me Rick Weist, and our engineer and producer Adrianna Robinson. Oh deer, the buck stops here. That's right. We want to talk about deer today, and I think you want to too, because few creatures can look more harmless while doing more destruction than the urban deer. They spread disease, they run in front of cars, causing crashes.
They devour farm fields and expensive landscapes. I guess in brief to say they find your roses dear delicious, because they certainly do. They can eat plants down to a nub in short order. But to be fair, humans have created the ideal conditions for deer to survive and reduce well basically to problematic levels, and we see higher survival
rates in deer that live in urban settings. And Stacy for context, resource managers years ago were concerned about overpopulation when the herd was much smaller.
Wow, that's saying something because it's big now, you know. I do want to say to any listener who's like, I don't have deer. I'm gonna go listen to something else. Just because you don't have deer now doesn't mean you won't have deer because of the way that things are going right now with so much development, especially right now, you know, the areas that they have to live in are becoming increasingly smaller. And the fact is, much like
raccoons or apossum, they're just adaptable. They are able to adapt to our environment, the way we live, the way that we plant around our homes, all of that. So yeah, it's really just a matter of time till pretty much everybody. I live in the middle of a city. I didn't think I would ever have deer, and I have a terrible deer problem.
That's exactly the problem. And in a county that adjoins the counties that Stacey and I live in here in Michigan, Kent County. I went to a meeting the other day the Kent County Deer Management Coalition. As a matter of fact, they've enlisted the support and help of Grand Valley State University. And we'll talk to a representative in segment four today to see what we can learn. But the number of road killed deer pickups in that county and twenty twenty
four exceeded the number of hunter harvested deer. Wow, twenty six percent of vehicle crashes are deer related in that county. And last year in that county, I was standing there at the meeting talking to someone from public Works. He said that their department last year picked up one hundred
and eighty tons of deer carcasses. Yeah, that's unreal when you consider that the adult male buck weighs between one hundred and twenty one hundred and sixty pounds, a female maybe eighty to one hundred and twenty pounds, one hundred and eighty tons. You do the math. Now, the deer boom factors, I guess essentially we have to say, Stacey, that they don't have the large predators they had years ago, and reintroducing them into the landscape doesn't make sense.
No, And I mean fortunately, coyotes are definitely on the rise. They certainly cited frequently out here in West Michigan because they also have a similar adaptability in ways that they can adapt to, you know, human surroundings. One coyote can only do so much switch when it comes to a giant deer. So we can't count on them. And of course, you know, people if you try to say to people, well, you know, we'll encourage coyotes to try to manage a deer problem, while people are going to then freak out
about having coyotes around. So we're really in a rough situation. And I do want to say, you know, I have seen the arguments on local Facebook groups, and I have seen people say, literally word for word, there is no flower in the world worth a deer's life, right, And the fact is, this isn't just about the fact that we love gardening, and it's not just about the fact that gardeners should grow whatever they want without any repercussions.
That's not the point at all. But a lot of us like myself, who are gardening for pollinators, you know, if a deer comes along and eats all the flowers, well there goes your potential for pollinators and all of those other reasons that you're gardening for birds, for a wildlife. And of course deer are wildlife, but they have an outsized role in the damage that they cause to our landscapes.
Yeah, exactly. And it's a controversial subject because hunters basically remain as the check on deer population growth. But there are today less hunters than there used to be, and it's just a fact.
And you know where people hunt, because of course there aren't. People needs to be safe enough for them to fire a shotgun or a bow an arrow. Are not where the deer problems are. You know, I live where I live, they don't allow guns to be fired, So there is no hunting. Even if everyone, even if every qualified hunter around here went deer hunting, it still wouldn't take care of the urban deer population.
Yeah, suburban sprawl. I mean, it doesn't make sense to have a hunter shoot a deer and then chase it across ten property lines and have it expire in your backyard while you're back there having a margarita and eating chocolate bondbonds.
Well, it's better than TV.
Now. Of course. With this study here in the county that adjoins ours, they also found that when they survey the general public, there are some townships where the number of people who enjoy watching and feeding deer exceed those who do not like the deer. There are other counties where they simply are tired of the deer problem. And so you have people who represent the deer, and then
you have people who represent the plants. And that's why coalitions like this exist, because we got to find a way to get along together, you know.
And out here in Michigan, we fortunately do not yet have a huge issue with tickborne illness and specifically lime disease, which requires a deer to complete its life cycle. But when I lived in New York, lime disease, of course is named for lime Connecticut, where it was first identified, and all around the metro New York area, the deer pressure is outrageous. I mean, of course, it's very, very populated. I can honestly say this is not an exaggeration, even
though it's going to sound like it is. As a horticulturist who worked in New York City, I did not know a single other gardener who worked in Westchester or upstate who did not get one disease at least once. Not a single one. Wow, everyone got it.
Yeah, yeah, it's amazing. And you know, I guess some strategies can be employed. We could hunt more, but we already said that there are less hunters today. Reintroduced predators, which is laughable.
I mean, it's interesting, but you know, not gonna work.
Of course, they've looked at sterilizing female deer or trapping and killing animals. All come with trade offs. I mean in ann Arbor, a city here in Michigan, they tried the deer sterilization program, but it didn't work. They put it on hold. It's very expensive, it's difficult. You've got to get at least eighty percent of the female deer sterilized, and that that's a difficult task.
Well, and I read a study not all that long ago that found that ovary tissue could grow back in deer that were sterilized, which is outrageous. I mean, it's crazy to even think about, but to think about investing the time and money and of course the stress on the animals of a for sterilization and then to not even have it work. I mean, and plus the when they did sterilize the deer, they put this giant tag
in their ear. I mean, it was huge. So my friends lived in ann Arbor and I was looking out their back door one day and I was like, what in the world is with that deer? Looks like it's got some kind of crazy earring on. So it's also you know, humiliating for the deer.
Yeah, it is. I mean it's just there are there are not easy answers. Now the buck stops here, So we're going to try and give you some help. For example, at my home where there's tremendous deer pressure, the front yard, I plant nothing but deer resistant plants and it works quite well. The backyard I built a compound, put up signs that say no deer allowed, and that works quite well. But fencing is expensive and in some neighborhoods you just can't do it. It's maybe even unsightly. Of course, deer
repellents some work better than others. And I do want to share real quickly a story, and that is I have mentioned on the program before that I use a deer repellent called Bobex. Now, the reason it's called Bobex is because the gentleman who invented it, bob Exady, is a Navy veteran and he was a chemist. He had a degree in chemistry, lived in Connecticut, had three hundred tomato plants.
Wow, that's a lot of tomatoes.
Yes, And this is a gentleman who loved plants. He passed away a few years ago. But now his son, Greg who I've spoken with as CEO of the company. So they call it bob X because all of Bob's friends called them bob X, so they call the product bob X. But the point is is how well do these repellents work? And he had three hundred tomato plants and he found that with the plants that he fed with a fish fertilizer, the deer left them alone. So
he went to work as a chemist. And it's interesting when I read the label, it, for example, has stuff in it like cat food. Oh, and I asked Greg, I said, cat food in my spray? He said, well, essentially what it is is it's chicken livers. And so when you look at deer, which are herbivores, and compare them to cats or dogs, they'll put chicken livers in dog and cat food. But herbivores, of course, do not like it. The fish oil makes for a great sticker,
it does not wash off the foliage real quickly. So again I'm not being paid by Bobecks. I'm not sitting here just endorsing their products so that I can be paid. Coming from the garden center industry, I have used many repellents over the years, many repellents, many different types. This to me, stacy is the closest thing to a fence. Bobecks really works.
All right, I'm a plants good person. Definitely bring your family and tell your neighbors to go inside before you spray it. But it also works, just smells ghastly.
In the case of bobex of course, it's used as a sticker or something, fish oil essentially as an adhesive for this smelly stuff. And as we've talked about on the show before, putresse and egg solids, garlic, all this sort of stuff is put in the sprays also, and it's not fun going out there every night and spritsing those plants and coming back inside smelling like it.
No, it smells terrible.
It's not fun, but it beats building these little deer pens around the plants in your landscape. And you'll see that in landscapes. Now, there are many great plants that we can suggest for deer resistance and stacey right off the top. My favorite, of course is ornamental grasses. They don't touch ornamental grasses. There are so many great cultivars of ornamental grasses. So between ornamental grasses, nepeta lavender. There are a number of plants that are suited to deer resists.
Tons. Really, there are tons of plants. I'm gonna talk about that a bit in Plants on Trial, But yeah, you are spoiled for choice when it comes to plants that the deer white. There really are so many amazing options basil. How glad am I that the deer don't eat basil.
Exactly, So we'll look at that list in segment four today. Let me give you a quick limb. A Rick on this topic says, though I live in the wild Frontier, the nibbling on my plants is quite severe. They polished off my shrubs, my flowers down to nubs. What to do? I have no idear maybe Stacy has a few ideas for us in Plants on Trial. That's coming up next here on the Gardening Simplified Show.
Beautify your home and community with Proven Winner's Color Choice Shrubs with over three hundred and twenty five unique varieties to choose from. There's a flowering shrub or evergreen for every taste and every space. Just look for the distinctive white container your local garden center or learn more at Proven Winner's Color Choice Dot com reeting's gardening friends, and welcome back to the Gardening Simplified Show, where the order
of the day is deer. And of course, if you have been listening to us for some time, you already know that both Rick and I struggle mightily with deer in our yards. Has put up a fence, he might be being saying, like, Stacy, you complain about deer all the time, why don't you just put up a fence. And the fact is that the way that my yard is where the position of my driveway and everything else in my yard makes putting up a fence is quite difficult. I would need a very large gate to get over my
driveway and seal off that part of my yard. I had, I have had quotes, I have had fence people tell me that that gate will be a nightmare in the winter. Don't do it. So that's why I don't have a Fenceless, I am defenseless, but I'm I am without offense, but I am not without defenses. Now, I do want to just give you like a brief little background if you haven't heard this story before. When we finally bought our house, I was like so excited to finally have a garden.
You know, this is like a culmination of years of living in the city and not being able to afford a house, and then moving back to Michigan and living in New York not having a garden. And I was just like ready for it. And you know, we find the right house. It's got tons of sun, it's a nice flat lot, blank slate. My head is just swimming with ideas, so excited. And there was this sort of
old vegetable garden at the back of the property. And one day we had been at the house and I saw that there was a potato coming up in it, and I was like, oh, all right, cool, you know old potato, that's fine whatever. It was about to flower. So a couple days later we were back at the house. We were talking to our neighbor in the back, meeting him for the first time, just chit chatting, and as we walk away, I say to my husband, I wonder what ate that potato? It was just about to flower.
And my neighbor turns around and goes, oh, that that was the deer. And I wish it was one of those moments in life where I wish there was a camera so that I could have seen my face because it was like one of those scenes in the movie where you're just like, you know, happy and smiley and then like just like mood change on a dime. I mean, I couldn't believe it because it's in an urban area and I never would have expected that it's a problem.
And not only are deer a problem, they have become significantly worse in my area than they were when we moved into our house ten years ago.
Same here, they walk right up the front steps and ring the deer.
Bell pretty much right like they're fearless. And I will say this, we also have rabbits, and you know, the rabbits are also very, very destructive. But I will give the rabbits credit. They come around, they look darling. We get some entertainment value out of the rabbits, you know, I can forgive them a little bit. And of course if they eat too much, well then the plant just dies and it dies out, and then I don't have
as many rabbits anymore. The deer, you know, I could appreciate them a little bit more if I ever saw them, but no, they do their damage under the cover of the night. I don't know what time, ten pm one in the morning anytime I am sound asleep, so I'm not even I'm getting like, wow, it was really cool to sit here and observe this deer like that. I get nothing in return. All I get is damage.
Have you tried any of the motion activated stuff?
I had a call a week ago today, in fact, a local gardener called me and I had to ask some questions and he was talking about his hostas, and I was like, wow, you have hostas out here. He goes, well, you know, the deer surgery eating. But then I got one of those motion detectors sprinklers. Okay, so no, here's
my solution. Here's what I have done. Even though I took a year there where I was deluding myself into believing that I could grow whatever I want and do whatever I wanted in my property and spraying things and putting up cockamamie contraptions to block plants off from deer, I finally just decided, you know what, this is just going to be a deer resistant garden. And I have made all of my plant choices based on things that the deer won't eat.
Yeah, And like I said, that's what I did. In the front ornamental grasses, nepeta, lavender, et cetera, et cetera.
Right, So it is a choice that you can make if you are unable like me to fence off your yard, or you don't want to, or you know, if you live in a larger lot, fencing may become very impractical. So there's lots of reasons why. And I have to say that not only has this been an amazing learning experience for me, because I have, I really have learned so very much about plants and what deer will eat and all of that. But it's been rewarding and I
have a lot lower maintenance garden as a result. And I have to tell you now, sitting here, you know, ten years later, nine years later, after this decision was made, I have no regrets and I don't feel deprived at all. Now I do wish I didn't have to have a giant fence around my vegetable garden. It would be really nice to just be able to stroll out magically to the vegetable garden and pick stuff without having to undo a bunch of you know, links and get into my
vegetable But I'll take what I can get. But yeah, you you don't really miss out on great plants by limiting your palate to just things that dear won't be.
I think you have to adjust. You know. One of the things we didn't mention in the first segment is the climate is changing also, and if the winters are milder again, you're going to have more a lot more damage. This is a problem that's not going to go.
It's not going to give away. But this is plants on trial, So we're supposed to be talking about a plant, and I am pleased to share with you a fantastic plant that I adore that is very, very dear resistant and it is a sweet emotion Abelia. Great plant, Great plants. So Abelia Abelia is a plant that we've talked about occasionally on the show. If you live in a colder climate, you may have never heard of it because most abelias that are really popular are considered more southern plants. They're
hardy down to about USDA Zone six. They're broad leaf evergreens, so they can suffer a little bit of winter damage. Well, today's Abelia, Today's plan on trial. Sweet emotion abelia not an issue. It is actually hardy down to USDA Zone four. It is probably the hardiest and one of the only hardy abelias out there. And so I wanted to talk about sweet Emotion today because it is a member of our deer Proof program here at Proven Winners Color Choice Shrubs.
And this is a program that we started a few years ago, knowing how many people struggle with deer and knowing that when someone goes into a garden center and needs to find a plant that deer won't eat, that they don't want to look at one hundred and fifty different plant tags trying to figure out what the right plant is to put in their yard. So we came up with deer Proof. Yes it is a bold name, because deer will eat pretty much anything, but these are
plants that truly are lowest on their list. And while they may need a little bit of protection when they are fresh and new, because when something is fresh from the garden center or grower, that growth is really tender. It's been super juiced up with water and fertilizer. So even plants that are deer resistant once they are established, can be a little bit delicate in those first couple
weeks or months coming home from the garden center. But if you can get him through that these are plants that will be a long term investment in your landscape, no matter if or when or how many deer come up. But the other reason I wanted to talk about Sweet Emotion Amlia is because it was just blooming in our gardens here a few weeks ago, and Adriana and I
were making a video and not on Sweet Emotion. We were making a video on Whygela that will be out very shortly, if it's not out already, and all of a sudden, we just got overwhelmed with this amazing fragrance and we were like looking all around, you know, there's so much in bloom in the garden that we're like, it could be any number of things, and we quickly realized it was Sweet Emotion. And the fragrance, I mean, I like, I'm at a loss for words. It was
so powerful and so lovely. The closest way that I can describe the fragrance of Sweet Emotion Abilia is it is like warm jasmine tea. And it was a warm day when we were out there and the sun just lifting the fragrance off of these flowers. It was it's glories. It's intoxicating. There really is very few other plants that smell this lovely, especially for cold climates like USDA Zone four five or six.
So if you can handle a cold climate, is deer resistant fragrant blooms, then you add to that the if I recall correctly, gorgeous fall color.
Gorgeous fall color a great plant. It is a great plant, and it's it's about five to six feet tall. Now we do have a new version coming out of out next year called Sweet Emotion Blaze just like it. It's a little bit smaller and it has even better fall color. But whichever one you find, they're both great plants, a good choice for hedging. I mean, can you imagine a
hedge of this thing. The fragrance was eighty round. It was with me and she's just shaking her head right now because the fragrance was so amazing, and it attracts swallowtail butterflies. I see lots of pollinators on it as well. So a nice versatile plant. You don't have to worry
about the deer eating it. Multi seasons of interest, and it is one of those plants that I think you just are like, wow, all this and it's deer resistant, not just like eh, the deer won't eat it, like this is not a plant where they're eating the flowers, which often happens to you that the plant itself will be deer resistant, but they like to eat the flowers. This is the case with a lot of viburnums which
are on a lot of deer resistant lists. And no, they won't ruin your plant, but you will never get a flower or fruit on your plant if you have deer. So that's Sweet Emotion Abelia. I think it is a fantastic plant. If you don't have one, go visit a garden center. Maybe it's still in bloom so you can at least smell it, because it is really a treat and a plant that you will be very glad to have in your yard, even though the deer will not
for once. So you can find out more information at Gardening Simplified on air dot com, or just visit your local garden center and ask them for Sweet Emotion Abelia from Proven Winner's Color Choice Shrubs. It's part of our Deerproof program and we will put a link to the Deerproof program there so you can also see all of the other plants that are available for you. If you struggle with your like we do, We're going to take a little break. When we come back, we're opening up
the mailbag, so please stay tuned. At Proven Winners Color Choice Shrubs, we know that a better landscape starts with a better shrub. Our team of experts tests and evaluates all of our flowering shrubs in evergreens for eight to ten years to ensure they outperform what's already on the market. For easycare, reliable, beautiful shrubs to accentuate your home and express your personal style, look for Proven Winner's Shrubs in the distinctive white container at your local garden center, or
learn more at Proven Winner's Color Choice dot com. Greetings gardening friends, and welcome back to the Gardening Simplified Show, where again we're talking about deer. And I think that Rick and I could fill several shows talking about deer, not necessarily because it's a topic that we enjoy discussing, like we have had other shows where we were like
we could talk about this for days. But I think it's a topic that both you and I Rick have learned so much about, and that to me is one of the reasons why it's so interesting, is because I would not have learned nearly as much about plants and gardening as I have because I've had to deal with deer.
Yeah, you're forced into it and working in the garden center, even this past weekend, when you stand around and chat with folks who are shopping for plants, usually one of the first words out of their mouth, will the deer eat this thing?
Because they don't know it's and it's hard, frustrating, it's frustrating, and you know, a lot of plant tags just aren't that informative. We do for proofn minners, colored choice shrubs, we do have a deer resistance scale on all of our tags, so we have the deerproof plants. You know, those are going to be the highest resistance. But when you open up our tags, it says, you know, deer resistance low, medium, high. So we do have that easy
for people to understand, because this is a problem, you know, everywhere. Now, before I launch into our questions, because they don't want to take up too much time, I do want to just make sure we have a few moments to talk about some key characteristics. If the plant doesn't have an informative plant tag that you can look for, so hairy foliage is usually a big one. They don't normally like
things that are hairyer have like texture tom. They don't like anything that's going to have like a visible sap. So like anything if you break a little leaf off and it has like a white sap, not gonna eat that. And usually things with foliage with fragrance. So I have an herb garden that is unprotected. They never take a bite out of any of that.
So same thing here time or reagano aliums, anything in the onion fan chives.
Always basil, which I think is amazing, so happy they don't eat basil, although they do eat colius like crazy, but that's not a dirpe, so that's another one. So if you can feel the foliage and it gives off like a resinous kind of aroma, that's another really good option. But some of the plants I feel like are completely inexplicable.
As we've talked about on the show. Taxis you one of the most toxic plants for most for humans and probably most other animals eat Deer will eat a taxis down to its bear branches.
Yeah, it's crazy, you know. I have Vitex, which smells like vis vapo rub and they ate it down to the nubs. They did YUCKU. Yeah, it was crazy. So, you know, people, there's certain foods you just don't like. You know, like I don't like jello molds. You know, these gelatinous salads, I just don't like them. But if you're hungry enough and that's all there is, well, I guess you'll lead it.
Yeah. Right, you don't have much of a choice.
There, ambrosia salad, you know, pineapple, mandarin, oranges, coconut marshmallows and sour cream. I'm not going to eat that, but I will if I'm hungry in.
Them, I guess. So. So there are some visual cues, but you can't always rely on them. I mean, roses are famously a favorite of deer, and of course roses are famously thorny, but deer will eat any roses. They are a little bit less attracted to something like the beach rose, but they'll still ete those. I mean, I've seen them in my neighborhood totally devoured. So so there's not so as far as spines and that kind of thing go not a magical you know key there that
we can share with you. But generally I have found that, like the resinous fragrances and hairiness.
Yep, that's true. Pungent fragrances. Russian sage would be in it.
Oh yeah, they definitely don't like that plant. So it's just a guideline. But this is a situation where certainly, if you have a lot of deer, if you're new to gardening with deer, you know, get your plant list experiment. And oh another thing I wanted to say, Like I said, if plants that are fresh from the garden center are going to be more susceptible to deer than plants that are established. Also, I find that it helps a lot
to get bigger plants if you can. So, if you're at the garden center and you're going to buy a shrub and you have a choice between a one gallon shrub and a three gallon shrub and you have deer, get the three gallon because that one gallon is a snack for a deer that three gallon And when it's got those thicker branches, they're a lot less likely to bite into thicker, more mature wood or stems than thinner wood.
Now in the area where we live here in Michigan, would you say that the standard that's held up as deer food would be hostas and tulips.
Hostas, tulips daylilies. Yeah, you gotta get the daililies in there. Ok Yeah, so you got something for every season, tulips in the spring, hostas and daylilies in the summer. Okay, well, let's try to hold. We have a question from Leslie.
Leslie, Hi, guys absolutely love to show and appreciate the chance to hit play and zone out the world and think about plants. I love that too. Our house has a very old, absolutely massive dragon Lady Holly. The leaves are so sharp ouch. There's a lot of swearing during the spring cleanup. It gets loaded with flowers every May, but never berries. I bought a boyfriend a blueprint last year, but they won't sync up and bloom on time. I suspect it's due to unequal sun. The dragon Lady's about
to open flowers again. The blueprints has already done. Can I go buy any mail with open flowers to try and force berries this year? Or is it going to be a fruitless pursuit? Leslie? I like your sense of humus.
She got a little pun in there for you.
Yeah, and when the heck, are you supposed to cut this thing? Yes, you gotta helpless.
We too have to help Leslie, and now is the time. So if you have a holly, now, Leslie, dragon Lady is kind of like a blue holly. I actually think it might be a hybrid. But in any case, whether you have a winterberry holly or an American holly or one of these blue Holli's English holly, whatever holly you have, they are all dioecious, which is to say, they have separate male and female plants. Only the females get the berries.
But you do need to have at least one male for every four to five females to make sure that the females actually do develop fruit. Now, the absence of fruit alone is not going to tell you whether your plant is male or female, because there's all sorts of reasons why your plant might not have fruit on it. The only way, there's only one single way to tell, and it is that narrow window when the plant flowers, and you need to look closely at the flowers to
tell whether they're male or female. Fortunately, it's very simple. The female, because it is going to turn into the berry, has a tiny green sphere sort of in the center. It's small, but it's noticeable. It sticks up prominently from above the flower, so it's easy to see. The male, meanwhile, does not have that in the center, and it has
fluffy anther. Interestingly, the female flowers some on some hollies do produce fake anthers in an attempt to fake out the pollinators and make them think they're gonna get pollen and nectar when in fact, nope, oops, you just delivered pollen. Nothing here for you, ha ha psich. So that's a don't just look for the anthers, but look for that green dot. If it has a green dot, it's a female. No green dot and fluffy anthers, it's a male.
Now.
Leslie actually wrote a couple days after she sent this message, and she's and the subject line was, oh my gosh, is my Holly a boy? And she sent a picture now that it was flowering, and sure enough this what she had thought was a dragon Lady Holly was actually a male and that was why it was not getting any So now is the time to check your plants. You can only find out for sure when they are
in flower again. You're gonna want one male to every four to five females, you were gonna want them planted within ideally fifty feet of one another. This is sort of the general distance that they recommend for insects to cover on their foraging trips. And of course the bloom times have to overlap exactly because, as Leslie pointed out, if they don't flower at the same time the poland they can't pollinate because there's no pollen there when the females are open, or vice versa. If you don't know
there is, this is funny. There is a blue holly called blue stallion.
Yes, there is.
A very apt name. Blue Stallion has a longer bloom period, so this is kind of like you're all purpose if you don't know exactly when or what male to pick. Blue stallion is kind of like your safe pick for blue hollies because.
You can readily find the blue prints. But some people get frustrated to the point they want a stallion.
Yes, right, so blue stallion. And the thing is Leslie asks if she can just go to the garden center and buy one that's in bloom at the same time. That's not a full proof method because any plants at the garden center would have come from a grower or have been overwintered by the garden center. That means they got a head start on the season compared to being outdoors in your yard. Therefore, they'll be at different phases.
And sometimes that's even going to be an issue if you find a competible pollinator, and of course it's bloom time is off for that first year. As for when are you supposed to cut this thing, well, the good news, leslie is male hollies can be cut any time after they're finished blooming. If you cut them and provene them back,
then no harm done. Female hollies, on the other hand, really cannot be successfully pruned unless you're willing to sacrifice flowers and or fruit, because if you cut them in the spring before they bloom, you'll be cutting off the flower buds. If you cut them after they bloom, you'll be cutting off the fruit. So the best thing to do is to try to cite them appropriately, minimal pruning, or just you know, resolve yourself to not having any flowers one year.
We're handling prickly difficult issues today we are.
It is a had you heard of.
The phenomenon where a holly plant the foliage and the lower portion reachable by deer are more prickly and thorny than in the upper portion of them.
Yeah. Junipers do that too. Yeah, it's like an ivy does that as well. So it's like a juvenile and mature foliage thing that the plants create so that they are less subject to predation on that lower growth. But yeah, all that's a great way to bring it into today's theme of deer.
Like you said, we could do three or four shows.
On this top and then some so in any case, thank you Leslie for your question. And if you have a question for us, you can reach us at Gardening Simplified to on air dot com, or just go to proven Owner's Color Choice dot com hit the contact tab and we'll get you an answer much quicker than here. On the show. We're going to take a little break and when we come back, we've got a special guest and of course a little bit more chatter on deer.
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Welcome back to the Gardening Simplified Show. Special guest here on the show, Ali Locker. She is a professor in Natural Resources management and wildlife biology programs with Grand Valley State University and Ali, thanks for joining us on the show. Had the chance to meet you at the Deer Management Coalition. Pretty amazing when you take a look at a community like Kent County here in Michigan. The deer problem that we all struggle.
With, right, Yeah, it is, and it's more than just a deer problem. I think it's a human problem too. People tend to operate as if we were in a bubble and completely disconnected from the outside world and unaware how our actions, even if seemingly small, create these consequences and then define as the deer problem, especially when they're considered cumulatively.
Yeah, amazing statistics that were shared at this meeting alley about how dense the population of deer are, and it seems as though the problem is only getting worse as far as car deer crashes are concerned. Landscape damage et cetera, et cetera. Some of it, of course, due to suburban sprawl in your surveys and in your work with a county such as Kent County for Grand Valley State University, what is your goal? What are you trying to accomplish? Are you trying to educate people on the issue or
go beyond that and actually find some solutions. Are there solutions?
Well, it's kind of both of those. Yes, we definitely are trying to educate people. I think a lot of people are really unaware of the problem. They're unaware like their individual actions are contributing or expanding this problems. They're unaware of statistics like cardier crashes and the number of roadkilled deer has exceeded the number of hunter harvested deer in Ken County over the past year, and people just
people that are not aware of that. So, yes, we are trying to educate people with empirical data that's collected and presented in a way that's easily understood by non scientists or in a way that people can relate to. We also are working towards developing management recommendations. And this is a collective effort. This isn't the the researchers dictating what needs to happen. It's multifaceted and we're we're taking input in suggestions and ideas that the residents also have.
We have numbers on privacied deer, roadkilled deer, we have numbers on estimated deer densities or areas where there's higher versus lower concentrations of deer throughout different seasons. And we've got input from residents through the two surveys that we've implemented.
We're going to layer them all using mapping technology and statistics to identify deer management zones within Kent County and have overall recommendations for the entire county, but then specific recommendations for each of those management zones that we can present to the local government.
Now, one thing that you've mentioned twice in the very short time we've been talking is you don't use is you said that humans are contributing and they don't even realize it. So I'm curious what are the ways that humans are contributing. You know that we could modify perhaps our behaviors.
You know, in our society the dollar time money drives everything, and expansion mentioned urban sprawl that is contributing a problem. So in an area with maybe wooded or rural building, one house probably doesn't have any effects, but building several houses or several subdivisions trematively over time does Deer as
a species have evolved as prey just like mice. And in these systems where humans are expanding and altering the structure, compositions, functioning of natural ecosystems, we've removed the predator, and in systems you need that predator to maintain balance and biodiversity. So if we've altered these landscapes with our development and created conditions that are very favorable for expanding deer populations,
that's a problem. So like mice the ticken coop, You're you're beating the tickens, but all of the mice are benefiting from that, and the populations get out of control. So, you know, with provisions of adequate habitat, we're providing for dear you know, spawning areas underneath people's trampolines, or security cover in the row of trees between neighboring houses. We've also with this expansion, we decreased the amount of available
land for hunting. Maybe there's a decreased interest in hunting, but the surplus number of deer needs to go somewhere, So they're running out into the roads. It's a it's a big problem.
Yeah, it certainly is. We're talking to Alexandra Locker. She is a professor natural Resources Management and wildlife Biology programs with Grand Valley State University. Before we let you go, Allie, just wanted to ask you in your work on this and thank you for your work in surveying and working
with the community. Do you find that there is general consensus among people that we have an issue here that we have to find management techniques or have you found this to be kind of an emotional difficult issue when you're dealing with the community.
It is very emotional people. You are very charismatic, and some people you know, have found their connection with nature through deer. They like to see the deer, they like to feed the deer, but they also are concerned for the well being of the deer and they don't want to see any deer be harmed. And that's totally understandable. But the reality is that the deer are being harmed, like if we don't have any hunting involved in serving that role as like a predator, the deer are being
killed by vehicles and that's not respectful. And I don't think some people might not even think it's ethical. You're that are being killed that way, are suffering in the road, and then the bodies are being dumped into a landfill, whereas if they were harvested, you know, they could be used for food and for leather and for for other resources,
which is respectful to the deer. So as your question, it's it's a it's a complicated scenario with a lot of different layers, and we are considering the emotional aspect. I think we we have to in this to find a solution, and most people do recognize that something has to be done. And through these public surveys that we did, it was really refreshing and relieving that pretty much everybody
was on the same page. You know, there are some skeptics that don't think that there is a problem, but overall it was it was really nice to see the community coming together saying, Okay, how can we put our minds together and do something that's better.
Wow, that's great. Yes, we all have to work together towards those solutions. Thank you, Ali for your time and for the work that you do. Again. Her name is Alexandra Locker's Professor Natural Resources Management, Wildlife Biology programs at Grand Valley State University. Thanks for spending a few moments with us today.
Thank you my pleasure, thank.
You, thank you, Ali Stacy so as Ali said, it's an emotional issue, but there are things that we can do and I have been successful. I know you have two implanting some deer resistant plants and I love the proven winners Color Choice Shrubs Deer Proof line of plants because I can tell you working in the greenhouse, customers love being able to pick out a sprinter, boxwood or the Sweet and Low, any of those plants. Potentilla a great choice. There are options out there.
There are so many options out there, and you know, as gardeners, I think Rick, you and I are maybe a little bit willing to experiment with things, and there are certainly people out there who are just like I'm not going to take a risk. But I think that for us, our trial and error has actually paid off and we have a good list of plants that we love. We're not settling. These are great plants that we actually love to see that we can grow without any production.
No question, and they fulfill a lot of needs. Brunera of course, Pulmon area and hellebores. We mentioned Russian sage, iris, aliums, tribes, the herbs, all of these plants. Menarda is a you know, a plant that's been around for ages, although there's wonderful new cultivars and does a great job with deer.
Resists deer or rabbits. I'm not sure which do you eat my Menarda?
Do they?
But you know what, iris always surprise me. Yeah, I mean iris are one of those plants there's so pretty. I mean, they don't have any particular odor or smell, and they never ever, actually shouldn't say that they did eat my Iris reticulata, but they don't eat like the bearded iris to Siberian iris, all the irises that are blooming, you know now in early summer, they leave them completely alone.
I have a cultivar called Purple Flame. The spring, the deer ate all the flowers off it and some of the folds, and that's the first time I've had iris damage in my landscape. Now again, we had a rough winter this past winter and the deer were hungry. So you know the whole point is that, you know, we can make these lists of resistant plants, but if deer are hungry enough, they may venture into just about anything.
Well, there's that. And people also need to realize that the fawns the baby deer, you know, they don't just get downloaded like a book of knowledge of plants that
they can eat when they're born. They do have to figure it out, and so there are periods where the fawns are to kind of strike out on their own, where they sample things that deer normally won't and they don't eat a lot, you know, but it might be a situation where you are seeing some damage because the fawns learn much like humans do by doing so, they learn by sampling, and so sometimes you will see those occasional, you know, plants that they don't usually eat with a
little bit of and yeah, maybe they just choke it down. They're like, this was terrible, but I ate it anyway.
It's no fawn watching them eat your plants. And yeah, sometimes they just choke it down. But the parents are watching, and I guess if they're good and they eat everything on their plate, they take them to the dearie queen for a treat. Just bad. I know.
That was bad, Rick, Well, dear can't spin anything out either, so if they try something. They just have to chew until it goes down, so you're gonna eat it and you're gonna like exactly.
But even something like bud Leah, you know, I approach that cautiously in my landscape with a Miss Molly and a Miss Violet, but they've pretty much left them alone.
Yeah, I find that they don't eat that. Again, another plant that I'm not really sure why because it doesn't seem to have any characteristics that they don't like. But yeah, I'm glad that they don't. Baptisia, my summarific hibiscus. Sometimes a couple of them get a little bit of you can tell it was just like a taste. They were like, my, wonder if this is any good? No it's not, but
not enough to you know. There's a difference between plants that the deer will absolutely devour and take down to nubs and truly ruin, like arborvide And we've all seen the horrible looking arborvids in our neighborhoods and cities and everything that the deer ate, and those will never really recover, same with you, whereas a lot of other things, you know, they can actually recover if the damage is minimal.
Yeah, that's exactly it. With the Dutch blood running through my veins. I love growing bulbs, but I can't grow tulips. They just it's candy to deer. But I can grow fritile area, daffodils, iris aliums.
Those well, those are a fine consolation because those are all perfectly lovely.
So you know the tul I guess, go into the compound.
You go down to holland get your tulip, phil come back home and get to the good stuff.
How about if we put a little list on our show notes.
Let's do it.
Let's do that, and you can reference those going to our website. But boy, maybe we're going to have to do another show on this topic too.
I mean, I love talking about it because I feel like it has been again, such a learning experience for me. And I would encourage people who have deer to not just throw up your hands and tear out your landscape. Use it as a learning opportunity, use it as a plant palette expansion opportunity. And you know, as gardeners, we're optimists, so.
Don't give up deer to be different.
I have to say I was expecting a lot more puns from you today, but it's been like.
A lot of deal and me how I controlled.
I think Leslie had more puns in her message to us than you have done in the entire show to dear all right, Well with that, thank you Rix for your input on Deer, and thanks to Professor Locker, Thanks Adriana, and thanks so much to all of you for listening. We hope you have a fantastic week ahead.