You're Using Your Standing Desk Wrong

have a job. Basically. Okay, I went a little over the top of that introduction, but for years now, it feels like we've been reading things that tell us all of the ways that work is unhealthy for us. Yeah, there are literally news articles that say your office is killing you, right, so it should we count the ways. Yes, let's start with sitting. Sitting is the ultimate, Sitting is the new smoking. I've heard, Oh my goodness, it's so bad for you. Basically, every minute you sit, you're a

year closer to death. So we obviously should get up right now, I think we need to end this podcast. Yeah, I've heard that setting is really bad for you, because being sedentary is bad for you and it's bad for your posture. Yeah, I think it causes spinal issues and it is like causes irreparable harm to your health, and I can't even sitting is just universally agreed to be like the worst thing you could possibly do. So not only is sitting bad for you, but then staring at

a screen all day is bad for you. And I have personal experience with us because my eye doctor told me that I am not blinking enough because of a screen. Because of a screen. That's so sad. It's so sad. And the solution is not for me to blink more, because really, I mean it is, but I can't just like blink more because it's like hundreds of times. You know, you could get it. You could put a reminder on your phone a couple of seconds that wouldn't be disruptive

to my work day at all. Hey you gotta blink? No, I'm just on this insane I drop regimen. Wow, So your screen is so dangerous for you that you actually need to be medicated. Um. And then there's office air quality. Okay, how is the air killing us? There was actually some research that found that office air quality is hurting productivity, which I think is something that is another thing about these problems. It's not just that they're killing us, they're

also making us horrible at our jobs. Right, there's the health issue, which companies want to solve because if their employees are getting sick, they're calling in sick and they're not doing as much work. And then there's the ways that your positioned at your desk that are making you less productive, which is also costing a company's money. Right, So companies have incentives to make all this better, and they invest a lot of money and time into different

ways to do this. Right, there's all of this research and money that has gone into hacking the office for fitness. Um some things I've heard about our making a stairwell really beautiful and appealing so that people will just want to take the stairs intenttive instead of using an elevator. So here's a more uh behavioral economics version of that.

But at um Gensler, the design office design firm, they have a brand new office in Midtown Manhattan, and so they have all the latest and greatest in office hacks, and they put different types of coffee on each floor so that if you work on the third floor and you want a cappuccino, you might have to go down to the second floor. So not only are you walking more, but You also might run into somebody that you wouldn't necessarily see and think of the next great idea. Itselves

a multitude of problems. Do you think there are people there that have just changed their coffee preference based on what floor they sit on? I mean I would do that, but I am I'm lazy. I care enough about the coffee I drink that I might actually travel a couple of floors for the right kind. Yeah. Um, they've also at Gunsler done something that we have here with is no garbage cans at individual desks. You have to walk to a garbage which not only makes you walk more,

but also makes the office smell less bad. I mean, I I've been experiencing the lack of a garbage can it my desk, and I can say it's certainly inconvenient. Can I can I confess something though? There's a garbage can across the aisle for me, the nearest garbage can, and I can roll to it in my chair. People, I'm winning. They can't hack my fitness, so on the whole a smelling bad thing. There's also at Canceler, the office, I swear to you, smells so clean because the air

is perfumed. No well one the garbage can thing, and then too they put something in their ventilation system to purify it, and I swear it smells different. It really does smell good. I believe you. I am fantasizing about being there, and I don't even know what it would smell like. But we're not talking about the ultimate hack that I feel like is the most widespread and accepted,

which is the standing desk. We've heard so much about standing desks I think of the last five years from evangelists who swear it makes them more productive, and also you can burn calories while doing it. Right, if sitting is bad for you, then standing must be good for you,

unless it isn't. You can't have a craze without a backlash. Yeah, there was a study of studies basically compiling all of the research that's been done on standing desks that shows the results are really inconclusive, Like there isn't actually much science based evidence that standing up is better for you than sitting and you're burning a negligible amount of calories, and that if you stand for for prolonged periods that can actually be bad for you. You can get enlarged veins,

no want that. Should we just give up and sit down? I mean, at this point, I'm ready to just curl up and go to sleep. I mean, if sitting is bad for you, but standing also has improved and to necessarily be better for you, Like, how do we save our own lives? Thank goodness, we have a guest here

today to help us sort it all out. Dr Mark Bendon is director of the Ergonomic Center at Texas A and M University, where he has done all kinds of research on how to make your workplace healthier, including sedentary behavior intervention and lots of studies about how standing desks work. Mark, great to have you. Thank you for being here. It's great.

Let's start by talking about, um, what do you what would you say most people do wrong when it comes to sitting at their desk and working being at their desk. I think that's a great question. We we hate to kind of point the finger at people and say wrong, but unfortunately the research is showing that our biggest challenge in the office today is a lack of movement. So uh, not being physically active during the course of the day. It's just it's just really easy to get into some

of the great ergonomic chairs that we have. You know, they're very comfortable, they're very contour, they fit our bodies well, so it's easy to kind of sit in those and and not move except for you know, lunch and bio breaks, and that's just too long for us to be still. So what our research focuses on is trying to find creative ways to help people to get up and get moving and kind of get that whole body activity throughout the day in the office that we've we've lost over

the last twenty years. So it sounds like moving is the answer. Does that mean that standing all day also isn't the answer? Absolutely? Yeah, we really try to. I mean I even try to avoid the word, you know, sitting as much as I try to avoid the word standing, because that's really not what we're after. We're after the movement. So um, active sitting or active standing, I think that's that's okay. There's moving around by walking right, just and

a balambulation. Um. We encourage anything that has to do with changing position, changing posture. Moving. People ask me often, you know, hey, so just tell me what's my best position to be in? And I always tell them, you, look, the best position you can be in is the next one, and you know it just it just shows that it's really not about a position or a posture. It's more

about changing positions, changing postures. So even ones that are a little odd, and we wouldn't necessarily encourage, like, for instance, sitting on one of your feet, Um, if you do that for a short period of time, it's really not a big deal. We just wouldn't want you to do that for hours. And the same thing was sitting still or standing still, We wouldn't want you to do those for hours on end because there are other negative health

effects that can come from those. Can you tell me before we get into how to best move around most in the workplace, what are some of the benefits of moving around? Sure, the biggest thing we see is that when you engage the large skeletal muscles that hold us up right, that that allows us to move and ambulate. Um. Those large trunk muscles will basically provide a way for the body to filter out toxins and replenish nutrients and take away lactic acid. Um. We also see a really

strong body and brain connection. So what that means is that you know, there's a certainly cognitive level that we're all capable of performing at and to be at our best, to be at our most alert, our most reactive or most attentive, um, we need to have a little bit of body movement. We need to engage our body. And so when we're lethargic and sedentary and we sit still for long periods of time, the blood pools are glucose cycles dip, we we really do start to kind of

get into a stupor. And when that happens, unfortunately we're not at our at our peak. We're not at our top performance, and so being able to get up and move around just encourages that better blood flow to the brain and to the rest of the body, all of our organs um, we're able to have better respirations. And again, our our reaction time are are thinking. We do think better on our feet than on our seat, and so getting us up and getting us moving is is just critical.

It seems like a lot of people have taken that advice, the advice not to sit to mean stand. You know, the standing desks have really taken off. Do you do you feel like we've gone overboard with the standing desk? Well, okay, let me clarify that I think that's the wrong message because I worry about people who might take it to the extreme and stand still, flatfooted for eight hours. So yes to part of your question. Um. The other piece of that, though, is, so here's the reality. Um, We're

not at any danger. And here's why I know that, because we are currently evaluating thousands of workers who have electrics at stand desks, and they are not over using those desks. Fact we find, unfortunately that a lot of the workers are hardly using the standing feature at all. So I understand and of course agree with the concern that we would have people suddenly standing for eight hours. The reality is they're not doing that. I think. Again,

the mix is the big thing, So that transitions changing movement. Um, if I sit, you know, for thirty minutes and then I stand for fifteen minutes, and then I sit for thirty minutes and I stand for fifteen minutes, Um, you know, that's a reasonable mix during the day. If I sit for forty five minutes and stand for fifteen minutes, that's a reasonable mix during the day. But again, I wouldn't want to stand for two hours at a time without changing posture, or sit for two hours at a time

without getting up and moving around. So the variety is what we're after, and we think we've got some new ways to help people to prompt them, to remind them, to encourage them, um, to get up and move around. And so some of the real recent research, the ones that are still ongoing right now, we're doing that through

behavioral prompts with the computer. Can you tell us a little more about that research, sure, So we're working with a couple of different companies to combine monitoring of the human and monitoring of some of their bio markers, and monitoring of the electric deaths, so where are they at in space? Are they at a seated position or a standing position? And then monitoring of the person's computer, mouse and keyboard. So all of those things kind of combined together.

There's individual companies working on each of those. We're sort of pulling all of that data together and trying to look at it, uh, you know, as a unit and understanding what's going on with people and how they react and respond and how they're different, for instance, in the morning when they first come in when they're fresh, versus in the afternoon when they're starting to get fatigued. Um.

Understanding what might work well for one person. Um, perhaps you like a simple computer prompt that pops up on your screen and then it does that occasionally throughout the day, and you can kind of control how often that happens. Someone else might like a more I'll just say allowed imagine a drill sergeant kind of screaming at you through your screen. They might prefer that that might be what it takes to kind of get them going instead of a gentle nudge like you would get from a close friend.

So there's lots of different ways to encourage people. Another one we're working on right now is gamifying this process. So the nice thing about that is that it would allow an office complex of workers to compete against another office complex, and so on a dashboard you would see data about your team versus the other team, and it would be things related to this whole idea of movement and activity. Uh, we could even tie in, for instance, the number of steps that the team is taking throughout

the day. Sometimes the team sport is an easier way to participate rather than trying to do this all on your own, by yourself, just through you know, your own prompting. So let me get this straight. There are sensors on people's chairs and mice and keyboards and desks to track if they're sitting and standing, right, So all of these things.

If you if you've read much recently about the Internet of things, as we're connecting, you know, basically putting a chip in so many different pieces of hardware, how do we tie those things together? Because what's happening right now is we're suddenly getting a lot of data. Right We're getting data from all kinds of different um sensors every second of every day. So many of them are just you know, off the shelf, something you might think of,

like a fitbit for instance. And so you know, what do we do with that data or really encourage healthier behaviors? And and probably most important right now is to sustain uh those healthy behaviors. If you've ever seen the jim, you know, the first week of January and and then unfortunately about sixty days later, you'll you'll know what I'm talking about. There's certainly a phenomena right around everybody getting excited about something and wanting to make a change and

change their behaviors. But it is hard with humans to kind of sustain that and keep that going over time, and so that really right now is one of the biggest things that we're trying to find ways to do that creatively to keep those behaviors going well. I just want to wrap up by asking you about what most people should do. I mean, it's it's great to have these advanced kind of desks, but it sounds like an ideal world we wouldn't really be at a desk at

all for most of our day. But since most of us are stuck there, what's the main takeaway from your research about how how most people can kind of adjust? Sure, I think the nice thing today is we've got options, right, so more than more than in the past when we first started developing. This whole issue of technology induced in activity, where the computers and mouse and keyboard kind of had us tethered and tied. We're able to get up and

move around. Most of us are doing um things on our smartphone, for instance, that that we can take with us anywhere that we could only do at our workstations. There are PCs just five or ten years ago, so I think the ability to work from multiple places on the go is really changing what you think of his work. The next challenge for us, once we get people to start moving more and working from different places, will be how we regulate how much total work they do, because

I'm concerned that that may become troublesome for folks. Well, thanks so much for coming on and talking to us. It was my pleasure. So Dr Bendon calmed me down a little bit. I'm a little less concerned that we're all guaranteed to die no matter what we do. It seems like the main takeaway is sitting isn't great for you all the time, standing isn't great for you all the time, But really the most important thing is that

you move around a lot. Yeah. My dream for this is to be able to just take a break in the middle of the day to work out. That would be so nice. Some people do it, but it's it's hard to make the time. It's a luxury. And there are coworking spaces that I've been to that have yoga built in and that's part of the culture, so people do it, and there are offices that have yoga and boot camp in the middle of the day. Um, but to me, it's a little weird to work out with

your coworkers. And also, I guess there's come back all sweaty. I mean, yeah, you can go somewhere with the gym, I mean with the shower and perhaps, but then there's also that kind of icky thing where if your office is offering you all these things, like you never leave work, but I still want it. I think it brings up an interesting point though, that like your first thought goes to finding a way to get away from work and move around. I mean, ultimately, whatever you do to hack

your space. And you know, Dr Bennon was saying, we can walk around where while we work because technology enables that. Really, Like you're going to move around the most if you're not actually working. So I think that the best solution, if you have the option, is to do a little less work and a little more working out. Yeah, and with that, let's do half bake takes, happy fake takes. Before we get started with our half bake takes, we

have exciting news. We've been asking you now for a few weeks to leave us a voicemail with your half bag take, and you did. We have a listener half baked take. Let's get started by hearing it. This is Jeremy from New York. Five day work week, that's fine, don't change that. Plump days are fun. I guess three day weekend and then when there's a holiday, you know, four day weekend. Uh, that's my half bake takes. Thanks. So I think our listener is arguing for eight day weeks.

I'm I'm down. I mean, it would probably take a lot of legislation to completely reorient the the Gregorian calendar as we know it. But I mean that's what makes it a half big take. Yeah, you don't have to think about the detail. I love it. Please keep sending us your listener half big takes and we will play them in the air as often as we can. Becca, what is this week's idea that you want on the record that you haven't thought about that much? LinkedIn is

secretly the best social network, let's hear it. Social networks give me a ton of social anxiety. Um, for all different reasons. Like Instagram, I get weirded out because you like, get too many enough likes on your photos and you feel bad if you don't. Um. Facebook, I mean, what's even there to say about Facebook? Twitter? There's a lot of like professional anxiety, and I always second guess the thing I post. You can really go wrong on Twitter if you make a slip and right like a bad joke. Yeah,

but LinkedIn does not ask anything of me. LinkedIn, you know, I know exactly what to put on my profile where I worked. Um, I will accept any request from any friend because I don't put any thing on it. UM. I just find it to be like the lowest cost social network for my emotions and my psyche. Do you visit LinkedIn regularly? So I use it for reporting? I do? UM, I know that's very specific to my job. I know that you can read articles on it. I don't know

how really to do that, but that's the thing. It just is like the office place of social networks, right Like, it's very superficial relationships with people who I'm like tangentially connected to nobody's being like too real. We all keep it a little bit at bay like I'm into LinkedIn. I like it well. Full full disclosure. I used to work at LinkedIn, and I think there were product people there that would be very pleased to hear you say that you visit LinkedIn all the time. I didn't say

that that was I mean, full disclosure. This is not a commercial for LinkedIn, So if you don't visit it. Do you visit it a lot? Like more than every year too when you're thinking starting But yeah, I don't use it for things. LinkedIn wants me to use that fire probably I think they would just be happy that you're that. I'm more than every few years. It just has a utility and a purpose that the other ones don't. And also the other one stressed me out. Okay, low

stress LinkedIn Frantaska. What is your half opinion? Okay, as we as we approached springtime and we slog through this winter, I have a have a winter related half, big take, um, which is that layering is excuse my language, bs. Go on. If you live in a cold climate and you are layering to try and keep yourself warm, you're doing it wrong.

Get yourself a puffy coat that is so warm that you're basically wearing a blanket everywhere, and you could be wearing a bikini underneath it and you'd still be warm. And those coats cost a lot of money. But I can tell you I have one. It is the best investment I've ever made. I agree with you on investing in really good warm clothing. Like I'm a huge fan of having like the warmest everything, and it feels so good,

but I, oh, I still like layers. For me, it's like you put a sweater on under a blazer under a coat, and then your arms get all tight and then you have there's like sweating that happened somewhere, a blazer over your sweater. Layering is a lot of trouble if you ask me, and for me on the coldest days of the year, my ultimate goal is to basically be a walking bed. I want to have a comforter wrapped around me, and I want to have pillows around my feet. That's why I have shearing boots, which I

can wear, by the way, without sucks. So I basically just carry my warm, cozy bed around with me all day and it has changed my life. No more layering for me, all right, this has been a half baked takes half baked takes. Thanks for listening to game Plan. I am at Francesca today on Twitter and you can find me at RZ Greenfield. And if you have your own half big tapes, tweet them at game Plan or you can call our hotline at two and two six seven zero one six sex. If you like our show,

please go to iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. Subscribe, rate us, leave us a review. Every time we get a new review, we email each other about it and discuss, so your review will be read and appreciated. This show was produced by Liz Smith and Magnus Hendricks and the Heat of Podcasts is Alec McCabe and we will see you next week. By that was great? Got okay? It was good. Yeah, it was talking about work. It was funny. We were good. No. I liked it and thought it

was cute. I like that. Yeah, that was great. I thought that was good. That was good. I thought that was great. That was good. Great, I thought that was good. Okay, yeah, I like that. I liked that and thought it was cute. I liked that great. I loved it. Thank you. Pick up. You did recapture the magic? Yes? Yeah, I think we can probably. Yeah, I think we can do it again, just like shorten it up a little? Was that? Okay? Do we need it again? O? Good? But I got

into it relaxed. Yeah, I think we may have done an okay job. Oh my god, we did it