You Don’t Really Need a Mentor

best professional development and achieve all of our goals. And really it's just another thing to feel insecure about if you are an ambitious career type and you don't have a mentor because you didn't get that memo or you miss class that day where they teach you how to get a mentor, and it just feels so awkward and unnatural to be like you person, will you be my

intour please now? And that doesn't that's not real, so awkward. Yeah, what you really want is, you know, you and your mentor lock eyes across a crowded room and you have a great personal connection, but you also happen to really admire them professionally, and they are willing to give up a fair amount of their time to help teach you how to become a professional like them, and it all just comes together so beautifully. Yeah, it's like a meat

cute in a movie. Yeah. Why can't mentorships just be like the first fifteen minutes of a romantic comedy because our lives are movies real. So yeah, was that your experience, Frantistico though, with your mentorship mentors that you've had, No, it hasn't. And I've definitely had people in my life who I treated as mentors, are considered mentors or looked up to be. They editors I really admired early in

my career, or even professors of mine at journalism school. Um. But and I think that when I was earlier in my career, it made sense to check in with them occasionally and just drop them a line saying what I was up to or ask them for advice on something. But because those relationships were informal and sort of organic, they faded away, as organic relationships do. And I think it would be a little weird for me to to drop a line to an old j school professor asking

them for advice. Yeah, the people who I consider mentors, I don't think they even know that they're my mentor. So if I said, hey, mentor, let's do some mentoring today, they I thought we were friends. Yeah, I'm like, no, you're a little bit older than me and I look up to you. I don't know. Yeah, we're obviously both trying to play it cool with our mentors. I don't mean. There are companies that do have formalized programs, but it's

pretty rare. UM. The Society of Human Resource Management does the Benefits every year and they found that twenty one percent of organizations have a formal program where they pair up employees young and old so that they can have these mentor relationships. Which does it sounds nice? So if you're a new employee, you get handed the name of somebody who's been there for a while and can show you the ropes. Yeah, when you put it like that,

maybe it sounds a little forced. Again, well yeah, but it's it's also the total opposite of what we did, and maybe there's some advantages to it, Like, you know, we have informal mentorships and those people haven't actually made any commitment to spend a lot of time with us throughout our career. This at least puts that relationship in place formally. Yeah, although I found some other research that said you still have to have a relationship with the

person or else. It's basically just like not having a mentor at all. So if the mentor and the mentor you don't have um like a personal relationship, then it doesn't work. So it's like you can force them together in a room once a week, but if they don't make that connection, then it doesn't work. It's a catch twenty two because the relationship that you want to have

is the one that's going to help you. That relationship that's organic where you do get along well with some but it's really hard to sustain that relationship if you don't do the formalized mentor program thing. And so you do set up a mentorship relationship that works. There are

people that say mentorships don't actually go far enough. So it's all well and good to have somebody handing you career advice that you can do whatever you want with, but what you really need is something called a sponsor, and that's somebody who might also be your mentor, but more importantly, they have the power to actually advocate for you and fight for you in places that you can't

do on your own. So they're in that meeting with top executives that you don't get to go to saying, hey, you haven't noticed this person, but you should give them a chance on this big project. Oh good. Another relationship for me in distress about not having I don't think

I have a sponsor. Uh. And another thing that I was thinking about with my own mentor experiences is that it's very hard for me to find someone who has gone through what I've gone through and is doing something that I might be doing in ten, fifteen, twenty years down the line. Um just be because of the changing nature of our industry, but a lot of industries have changed and are going to continue changing. So when I do talk to people who I look up to, they

don't really know how what to say to me. They don't they didn't go through what I'm going through, and they have no idea what's to come. So I find that also frustrating. But maybe we need to be thinking about mentorships differently. Maybe we need to approach them differently and be looking for them in different places. And that's what our guests didn't phyllis quirky is the executive editor of Hooked, a storytelling app. She's also a former editor

at The New York Times. When she was seeking out a mentor, instead of looking for somebody older and more experienced, she went in a different direction. I think we should start with what is your definition of mentorship. I would say it's one person sen in a work setting who has special knowledge that they can share with another worker. It's as simple as that. I think some people get caught up in the idea I have to have a

mentor and define it as that. But in reality, I think most people, if they're lucky, but I think most people have this at some point in their career, have somebody who teaches them something. And even if they don't call themselves a mentor, consider themselves a mentor, that's an effect what they are. I think a lot of us struggle with the idea of, oh, I need to find a mentor. I'm going to seek out this older person.

And it kind of can feel like an inorganic Yes, it feels very unnatural, artificial and like you're trying to get. Like you were saying before, it's it feels like I want to get I need this to get ahead, and it becomes kind of stressful and pressurized. Is that not how your mentorships developed or is that what they were like initially? I never had, like I know some people in my early career they actually participated in mentorship program ams.

I never did. I just had people. And I'm still friends with one woman and she's like fifteen years older than me, and she really helped me in my career. But we never called it that per se, but it was just something that that happened. We liked each other. You know, should be someone you like and it shouldn't be this very transactional kind of thing where I give you this and you get ahead and then you do this for me. I don't. I don't like quid pro

q rols in general in career kind of things. I think things should be organic and um, you know it's um. I think if it happens naturally, that's better. But if you you can ask someone, I mean, if you feel a bond with someone at work, it's certainly fine to ask someone will you be my mentor? So we talked about age a lot and now year later in your career, at that point, did you switch from being the mentee to the mentor. Well, I guess I would have. I'm

fifty seven now. I guess maybe it started to be in my mid forties that I started to realize I was older. I'm not sure that I have been a mentor. Maybe I have. Maybe people would say that I have been, and I just haven't thought of myself that way. I think that's actually probably true. People would say that I was a mentor, but I never, you know, defined it

that way. But I think I was entering in a period of journalism where I think youth started to be very much idealized and glamorized, and so I don't think that I felt anyway that older people were perhaps not quite as valued. Maybe that was just me, but that was a feeling I had. Yeah, I can tell you as a younger journalist, I would you know, I definitely

am always looking for older Yeah. I don't think that that relationship should be discounted, A should be discounted, but I tend to discount things in general, So that's something I kind of de fault too, So that's probably I'm

sure that's true. I mean, I think it's usually the people who I've um sought out as mentors there they tend to be not that much older than me, because I think with the changing demographics of journalism, there just aren't many older journalists in many news organizations I know, and that's very sad, and that is partly because of the idealization of youth, I think in a way. You know.

But so about a year ago, you decided to seek out an unconventional mentor yes, I thought I really wanted to learn Snapchat, and the idea of it terrified me. And I had gone on there and I thought, I

have no idea how to do this. And Snapchat was all the rage and and you know, people were saying that it was an important thing to know about, and I thought, this is an important part of our culture, and people were doing journalism and The Times was starting to do journalism on Snapchat, and so, you know, I couldn't get very far trying to learn it on my own.

And it just so happened that there was a fellow employee sitting just a few rolls down for me named Holly Minsburg, who was in charge of our snapchat coverage and social media coverage, and so I thought, I'm just going to go over and see if she will be my snapchat mentor and she's she was like twenty six years old. What was her reaction to that? Oh? She was just all for it. She was meeting like yeah, well, yeah,

I loved her. She's just this really like positive, go get her kind of Uh, you know, a person who's always up for some new challenge. Do you think she saw it as a mentorship? I specifically asked her, I said, I said, will you do? I want it? Well, I came at it with the idea of doing a story about it, because I covered workplace issues and wrote about them for The Times, and so I really came into it thinking that I would write about it for others. And can you tell me what the relationship was like.

Were there any awkward moments of having someone who's so much younger than you be the authority figure? Yes, I would say so. I mean I felt a little embarrassed.

I would say that I didn't know something or I didn't know a lot about this, because, especially from what I learned to talk talking with some experts, is that people, especially in my generation, the baby boomer generation, they were raised, they are used to more hierarchical work structures where the older people are supposed to be have higher positions and they're supposed to know more, and it's a little bit it is awkward and embarrassing to have to admit that

you don't know how to do something and to have to, you know, learn something brand new. Yeah, and do you think that she had the skills to to be the one who was the mentor? Absolutely? She was great. She was the perfect person. Well, for one thing, she knows all about everything about snapchat and what She made me feel better right away by saying, oh, yeah, my fifteen year old cousin had to teach me how to do it.

I felt old when I was learning it, so you know, it's a teenage thing or started out that way still someone is. And so that was she really reashared me right away with that, and so and then just her very positive encouraging to two two was great. I think we often hope to get more out of mentorship than just learning skills. You know, it's a relationship. Do you think you were going to get that out of your mentorship. I'll tell you, Uh yeah, I could tell because I

just knew her personality. And then we found out that we're both from Minnesota, so that was kind of fun. We had that in common, and you know, we we just you know, I feel like I'm going to stay in touch with her, and we have, you know, stayed in touch. And Yeah, it was definitely more than just learning snapchat skills. It was it was way more than that. It was just more you know, it was a great relationship and plus I was learning how to learn. Yeah,

did you mentor her? You think in the end a little bit like was it hard to kind of resist that more traditional relationship? I didn't. I don't think I did, And that was something. And when I wrote the story and talked to some experts about it, they were saying that which might have been a way to um improve the experiences if I had mentored her, and you know, maybe I did, maybe something rubbed off on her that I'm not aware of. Hopefully it did, but I didn't

consciously go into it. It was kind of one way. Since hearing from the experts that you could have reversed mentor her. Have you done that since writing the story about it? Well, I have a new job now at a tech startup where I am by far the oldest person, and I'm really trying to think about how I can perhaps be a mentor to these younger people. I mean,

I think that's partly why they hired me. So I've only been doing it for, you know, a little under four months, so I still have to find my way, but I hope that I will perform that service for my new colleagues. Yes, certainly, working with Talia, you learned more than just how to use snapchat um. It maybe was like a way of relating to the world in a way that younger people relate to it um. And now it sounds like you're working with a lot of

younger people. So has that helped you in your current job. Definitely. I realized, like, I've got a colleague who's in her twenties, and I realized from the start she has so much knowledge, and I realized I can learn from her. And I think if I hadn't had this mentorship experience, I might have been a little more resistant to that idea and I would have thought, Oh, I'm you know, as the older person, I'm the one who has to you know everything, while there's so there's so much I don't know, and

just admitting that is so important. Do you find that people your age you told about your unconventional mentorship that they were resistant to it. You know that they felt like, no, no, we're the ones who know things. I know. I think everyone understood, especially a lot of people my age are uh, not everyone. I don't want to stereotype everyone my age is this way, but we are. It's hard for us to pick up new technology, and I think it's an

obstacle for us to in our careers. And I think there's a widespread recognition of that out and so I think everyone I told about that was really supportive because it's so much better to have a one on one um learning experience of these new technologies and just try to pick them up on your own. This is I highly recommend anyone who wants to learn some new technology at work to try this. So, given your experiences, do you think that we might need to rethink the idea

of what a mentor is in today's workplace? Oh? Definitely, I mean we should. We should think of I think it would be great of HR departments or managers thought of really tried to create two way mentorship programs. And you know that especially the two way part, which I didn't really do as well as I You know, I wanted to, but just to feel like there's things there's in both directions, there's things that that workers can give to each other. Yeah, how would that help older employees

advance in their careers? I guess is that something we need to be thinking about now. Oh yeah, absolutely, I mean I think that's one thing. One reason maybe that there aren't as many older workers or older workers do phase out of some careers is these tech skills that they don't have, and those are very much valued and

justifiably so. But if there were training programs and one on one mentorship programs, say these older workers have those skills plus you know, then then they have the then they give the institutional knowledge of if they've been an organization for a while, and the experiences that they've had, they can provide those to the younger workers because as you said about this glamorization of the young, it does maybe discount some of the actual skills, like use that

institutional knowledge that these older workers do have to offer. Yes, the wisdom factor, as you mentioned, older workers have a harder time learning technology and your piece you talk about that that's not just an age thing there, there's like neuroscience behind the Yeah, there's actually neuroscience that shows that it is physiologically harder for older people to learn things.

There are these extensions of neurons called dendrites. They're kind of the antenna that past information between the neurons that was actually shrink as you get older, which I found so depressing when I talked to the neuroscientists about that. But the good news is that if you practice learning, uh, you can um you know, uh, you know, reduce the effect of that. And that's what something like this does. It really strengthens your brain. You if you practice learning,

you strengthen you know, the workings of your brain. Yeah. I think that's the theory behind those learning apps that have been mostly proven to be animosity. Um, are there things that happened to your brain as you get older that are beneficial to the work place? Yes. Um. What's really what older people have that younger people don't have is have less of is pattern recognition and the ability

to put things into categories. And so this is very useful when you encounter a new situation and an older worker might be able to see from past experience and just the way their brain is organized from being able to see certain things you know, they can call up these these past um events and be able to tell

and predict what might happen based on this new idea. Yeah, so it sounds like these are verse mentorship programs are a good idea because there are things in our brains that we see differently that we might be able to help people of different ages understand better. Exactly. Well, Well, thank you so much for coming and talking to us, Um, it was really a pleasure. Okay, I hope some more

people do reverse mentorships because of this. What Phillis did specifically might not work for everybody, but it just goes to show you that people are kind of blowing up the mentorship model. Like the traditional approach, just find somebody who will teach you and stick with you throughout your career who's older than you and more experienced, isn't really working that well for everybody, or even for most people. Yeah, most people under forty can't say that they've had a mentor.

And that's not to say they haven't had people in their lives like the people we're talking about, but they definitely don't have these formalized relationships. It just makes you wonder if we're even thinking about this in the right way, Like should we even be talking about mentorships or should we be calling it something else? Like are we looking for a different kind of relationship or a lot of

different kinds of relationships? Yeah, that sounds like a good model for someone like me, who I'm not going to find the one person, but maybe there's a buffet of people I can collect, you pick and choose. It's all a cart This person has experience in your industry. That person is just a kind of wise sage lead type. This other person, um knows how to do snapchat. That sounds like a delicious um this Oh my god, the salad model we just coined it. Yeah, the salad mentor Yeah, well,

I love the idea of a salad mentor. Um. It is a lot of work, though, to go out and find all the people with all the specific skills you need, also when you don't even know what those skills are sometimes because who knows what the world will be like in fifteen years. I think that that puts a lot

on the employee. Yeah, but the more we've talked about it, the more I feel like I'm coming down on the side of actually doing the work and having the awkward conversations, like you can only get so far if you're trying to be laid back about finding career guidance. So you're gonna have to send some awkward emails and you're going to have to look around and do a deep inventory of what skills you think you need and who has those skills that you might want to talk to, and

you're probably going to have to get some rejection. I feel like with everything that helps you in your career, there's an element of it that's just not cool, like networking, mentor ships. It's like you can't be cool about it. You have to be sort of a door and say I need your help, and I'm going to send you a politely worded email explaining exactly what I need from you. This is why I'm all about LinkedIn everyone once again, Once again, we are not sponsored by linked And now

it's time for half big takes, happy fake takes. You can call in with your very own half big take at two and two six one seven zero one six six And this week we have a listener half big take about saying goodbye. This is Meg from New York. My half big take is about saying goodbye at the elevators. We just shouldn't do it. So someone comes to your office to meet with you, and when they leave, you should say goodbye at the door by the elevator bank. Do not walk over to the elevator with Do not

press the button for them. They're an adult, they got there on their own. They can get out of the building on our own. The awkwardness of the stand the vader now you have pressed the button for them, it's just so sad. So let's all just say goodbye at the door and be on our way. Okay, thanks and love the podcast. I'm with her for sure about the awkward stand and press the button weight period. You should

just shouldn't do it. But I do think that and depending on the layout of your building, you might have to walk somebody pretty far, like some I have. I have been in other people's office buildings and been sort of abandoned at their cubicle or whatever and been like, I have no idea where or how to get out of this building. But that's so many awkward goodbye find to avoid that this thing to say, well, we have.

When Jenny guests hosted on the show, she did have an alternative to saying goodbye after you've had lunch with someone, which is to end it, you just say break. So I think you can do that for meetings, to just say break, and then it's like their challenges to find their way out of the building they can do with their an adults. Shore you guys, you do that franchise that what is your idea that you'd love to share

with the world. I think it's important not to get over zealous about seasonal change and changing the way that you dress. In most parts of the country, there are seasons. Some places it kind of stays the same temperature all year round, but like today, it got a little bit cooler. It's also close to Labor Day. There's that, you know, there's ads for school supplies. I feel like there's just like the smell of fall in the air and it's really still like seventy five degrees out. But I put

on so many layers. I wore like a fall outfit today and I feel dumb about it. So you're saying, don't do that, try not to be like you don't. I screwed up, And now I'm yeah, I'm ready to like walk across the coat. Maybe it's like get excited about the seasons in a different way than changing your wardrobe. You know, like, um, buy yourself some new supplies, buy some new pencils that you can sharpen and feel really excited about and get that cool fun fall feeling without

making clothing missed ups. I don't know how to get excited for fall, but sure not a fall fan over here? What you seem like the kind of person who like, couldn't sleep the night before school because you're so excited. Yeah, so it's that feeling. It's that leftover fling the academic years. Becca, What is your happy take? So? I was inspired by a woman who tweeted, Hello, it's me a woman eating lunch at ten thirty am because I packed it, and as a seasoned lunch bringer, you are. You're very good

about that. I just have some advice. How to not eat your lunch at ten thirty am is my half big take, which is you need to train yourself to not eat your lunch at ten thirty am. You need to say no. But once it becomes twelve, you can eat that lunch, don't. Sometimes I used to beat myself up saying, like only I could make it to one, but no, that's not gonna work. You need to have some leeway. But yeah, you just you gotta don't eat

your lunch at ten thirty. Just don't. But you so you admit that there is a temptation because you packed your lunch. It's just like it's like sitting there next to your desk screaming your name. That sandwich is like eat me eat, And you're obviously going to be hungry as soon as you get bored, which is going to happen at ten thirty. But you, once you train yourself, you I've been doing this for years now and I

can't remember the last time. I remember when I was first starting out, I had a lot of eleven am lunches and it's really depressing. And then you're hungry again and it doesn't break up the day, and then right you've defeated the whole purpose of packing your lunch. So you're your hack for this is just years of rigorous self conditioning exactly. There's no hack, really, it's just you gotta do it or be or I don't know, yeah, or don't pack your lunch, just go out and buy it.

I mean's appreciator enjoy them buying lunch during the work day. So so everybody's doing it right whatever you're doing No, everyone's doing it wrong. Yeah, I got it, and this has been half big takes, half baked takes. Thanks for listening to another episode of game Plan. You can find me on Twitter. I'm at RZ Greenfield and I'm at Francesco today. You can tweet at us with your half big take or anything you like. You can also leave us a voicemail at two one to six one seven

zero one six six. If you lack our show, head on over to Apple Podcasts and rate and review and subscribe. We hear you, we listen. Thank you, And if you want to listen to us and you're inbox, you can subscribe to our newsletter by going to Bloomberg dot com slash Newsletters and ticking the little game Plan box. This show was produced by Liz Smith and Magnus Hen. Next Time the hat A podcast is Alec McCabe and we'll

see you next week later. If we could coin a term, that'd be so cool, Like let's say something to say it's like not one mentor, but like a buffet of mentors that's fine, Like a mentor family.