The Truth About Coming Back From Maternity Leave

game Plan. I'm Francesca Lead and I'm Rebecca Greenfield, and welcome back. Francesca. Thank you. We missed you while you were gone. Thanks. I was gone for a while. Yeah, did some good work mile you were gone. Sam Grobert did a great job filling in. He did, and that won't be the last that you guys will hear from him. But now you're back. I'm back and we are going

to talk all about me in a few moments. But for I'm not the only person that's gone away from their job for a long stretch and then had to come back and readjust Yeah, there are all sorts of reasons that people might leave their jobs for an extended period of time and then come back with change circumstances like obviously having a kid. It's the big one because a lot of people do it. But now as the workforce ages, more people are leaving their jobs to take

care of sick family members, like their elderly parents. And companies that have the best benefits, like the ones that have the really plush maternity leave packages, also are starting to offer these elder care benefits where they'll give you paid time off to take care of a sick family member. And I think people who come back from something like that or maybe they're you know, maybe you'd be off work for disability or some of the reason often have a lot in common with people who go out on

maternity leave or parental leave. They come back and it's not like they can get right back to doing exactly the thing they were doing before. You've kind of changed circumstances. Yeah, Like there's not only what like you're saying, this transition process, but you might have to go to a doctor's appointment, or or you have to continue caring for your elderly parents even if it's not your full time gig. Yeah, and there are stigmas associated with that. I mean, especially

with parents. There's all this research showing that women when they have kids and come back to the workforce are unfairly judged for many of their actions. And they have this motherhood penalty where they lose four percent of their pay for every child they have controlling for a time taken off. So it's like, just because you have a kid, and just in case you're wondering, dad's don't have this,

they get a fatherhood bonus. Because we see parents differently in the workplace, right, So like when a dad has to leave a few minutes early to pick up his kid, everyone thinks would a stand up guy who handles his family responsibilities so well, But when a woman does it, she just can't juggle everything. You can't do at all. Yeah, because workplaces aren't really set up for work parents, a lot of women in particular end up just not coming back.

And on the face of it, that seems kind of crappy to take your maternity leave and then quit immediately after, but I can kind of see how it happens. You know, if you were already having some issues with your job and then your whole life changes and you have to add that to balancing this job that you didn't like that much to begin with. I can sort of see how going back can suddenly become a really difficult thing

to do. And even when you do like your job, like you Francesca love it, there are anxieties about coming back. And I think it would be fun for us to go back to an episode that we did with you before you left on Atornity Leave, where we talked to you about your anxieties and what you were worried about. Let's hear what I was freaking out about. There's so

many complicating interests, you know. There's me wanting all of the work that I've done to be maintained and maintained well and be in good shape, and the projects I'm proud of and feel close to, I want them to go well. But then it's like I want them to go to well because I want people to want to feel relevant and I want people to miss the work that I did. So how was that for you? Did any of that ring true? Well, Sam had the nerve to go ahead and do a really good job, so

obviously I'm super threatened by that. But no, it was really interesting to listen to because the thing about coming back is everything that you counted out of happening kind of happens. Like some things were done really well without me being here, and I'm less necessary for those things.

But I'm also really happy that a lot of things I was working hard on were kept together really well, and you did such a great job while I was gone, So you know, everything's kind of like where I left it, you know, like the things that we're going well are still going well, and the things that everybody has about their job that are kind of annoying and frustrating are still annoying and frustrating, and there's something reassuring about that. And you also are talking to me about like the

weird little things throughout your work day. It's funny to like drop back into the same job that you left so many months later. Because I was a different person, not just because I was a person without a kid back then, but I was a pregnant person, and I feel like I was more of a monster than I kind of realized. So I was in such a bad

mood all the time. Like I opened up a chat window to send a message to a colleague, and the last chat that I had sent her was from the summer, and it was just me complaining about somebody not giving me a seat in a meeting because I was so pregnant and so tired all the time. Reasonable complaint, reasonable, But I just I realized that I was really annoyed and tired a lot of the time at the end

of my pregnancy. So I'm hoping that coming back, I can actually be a more efficient and better worker just because I'm not as piste off all the time. Well, now it seems like a good time to bring on our guest who's going to share her experience as about what it was like coming back from her leave. Anna Sale is host of the Death, Sex and Money podcast from w n y C Studios, and when she went on maternity leave, she took kind of a novel approach.

She decided to talk about it before, during, and after her maternity leave on her podcast. Hi Anna, Hi, So we're really excited to talk to you about how you've integrated your maternity leave with your work and your life at work. You've been pretty open on your show about the fact that you were pregnant and planning to take maternity leave. You did what you called a visible maternity leave in some forms. So can you just explain a little bit about what that means to you and what

it looked like. Sure. So my show Death, Sex, and Money is it's about the things that we all go through but can have trouble talking about. So that can be really big things like relationships or grief. But also I thought like maternity leave is one of those things. It's the things that working women, uh kind of have a little bit of guilt about as they're approaching it. And then when my colleagues who got a maternity leave before me, when I would watch them go, it was

like they were super pregnant. I wouldn't see them for four months, and then they would come back with a cute little baby in the office and it was just like, Wow, what on earth did they do down this wormhole? So yeah, so it just seemed to me like this is like a um new parents would just disappear and then they would come back and it was like what happens on

maternity leave. And since I started the show about two and a half years ago, I got engaged, I got married, I got pregnant, So it seemed and that was part of what I would talk about on the show so when I was going away on maternity leave, it was like, Okay, how do I let listeners in on what's going on with me without working during my maternity leave, right because

I didn't want to do that. So what we decided to do was we, in addition to you know, just producing some episodes ahead of time, we also had a series of guest host who had been on the show before, and then in the middle of each of their shows, they would call me up and we would talk and I was, you know, on my cell phone talking about what was going on in that instant with my infants.

So it was an attempt to sort of show like when parents go on parental leave, they don't disappear, they're doing really important work, they're just not visible in the workplace. And uh so that's what I talked about. So you obligated yourself to staying plugged into work to some extent, Then did you regret that at all? In the end? Uh? I didn't. And I think probably part of my personality, like I, when you're on maternity leave, when you are used to being in the rapids of the media, it

can feel isolating all of a sudden. So I appreciated having a way to sort of step in but then say, okay, that's all I'm doing this week and step away. And I liked that, just staying a little bit, a little bit in tune with what was happening in the world. Can you tell us just how long you took and when you got back from leave? Yeah, I I took four months off of work. I was thinking about that this morning. It's so strange, like, one of the things,

this is my first child. So one of the strange things about working when you're pregnant is all of a sudden people start asking you, like, how long are you going to take? And I didn't. I knew what I was eligible for based on my time at w n y C, and and I knew what would be paid. And I had decided on four months because that seemed

more luxurious than three months, but not too long. I could take up to six months paid leave at w N y C, which is amazing, So I I opted to take four months, not knowing what it was going to be like to be a parent, and I guess as it got closer and closer, I was really surprised by the It was anxiety, but I allo I was feeling really wistful and sad in a way that I

wasn't expecting. And I think it was I was mourning my work identity of being a childless person, you know, being part of this team where we all work really hard, and you know, I had a measure of flexibility that I don't have now to jump in at a moment's notice to to put out whatever fire. And when you have a kid, your obligations and priorities shift a little bit. So I felt this kind of sadness as maternity leave

was approaching. And I was really surprised by that because I thought, like, oh my gosh, four months off of work, you know, like with a baby, it'll be like the best summer vacation. Um, it wasn't like that at all. But that was a feeling that surprised me that I it didn't just feel like, oh my god, I'm so excited for this to happen, for me to be able to step away from work. Yeah, I remember feeling I don't know if I felt sad, but I remember feeling anxious for sure. But you can go back to the

tape out on it. Yeah, I think we talked about how you were worried about the things that people talk about, you know, your job being taken away from you and losing the responsibilities, and what would happen to your job when you are gone, and what it would be like when you got back, yeah, and the elements relevance and then also what kind of and You've talked about this, so I'd love to hear your take on it. But what kind of person you'll be once you have a baby?

Everybody tells you this life changing thing, So I think you prepare for a total personality shift, and you're like, is that person going to be as into their career as the pre baby person? Did you have that kind of reckoning? Oh? Yeah, I mean I think there's so many things to be anxious about when you're pregnant, including like, how am I going to change with all these hormones shooting off in my brain that I've never had happened before, But also like is this baby going to be healthy?

And no matter how I'm feeling about work or not work, am I going to be able to commit to work in the same way that I did before? So I was I was feeling all of that. Yeah, So what was it like when you first got back. What were the what were the realities that were the same as what you anticipated, and what was different. The first thing you think about is pumping. Pumping is like the worst, It's the worst. It seems pretty destructive. Yeah, Becca has heard me talk about it a lot. Yeah, it's like

I find it. You know, I've never been a smoker at work, so I've never had something that like, all of a sudden, your body says, no matter what's on your calendar, you have to stop something for fifteen to twenty minutes. And you know, with all the equipment and carrying that this and that back and forth from work. I mean that took you know, there were definitely like early days where I just like left essential Part number one on the kitchen counter and had to go back

to work. I had to go back and get it. So that was It's like the biggest thing I think about. And I think that even saying that that pumping has been the biggest stress is the result of me having really great, reliable childcare. So for me, I haven't had to worry about is my baby safe when I leave for work. I have a childcare provider who I feel like is actually my baby is much better off getting to spend several hours a day with her because she

knows what she's doing, um and she's teaching us. Uh So I feel like the the the end of maternity leave was just this ball of stress about nailing down that childcare and but once that was done, I was able to shift back to thinking about, Okay, what is work going to look like? Yeah, so that that brings me to my next question. It's like, there's the added I don't know, anxiety of how people are perceiving you

now that you're a mom. I mean, there's all this research showing that people treat moms differently, even if they don't act defferitely in the workplace. Is that something you've felt just like having this identity of a working mom. I have felt incredibly supported by my co workers, but it is like I definitely have the demon voice in the back of my head saying like, oh my god, if they in your five minutes like getting to your desk,

they're going to think you're not committed. You're not committed worker.

And it's because you have a two baby now you know all these you know, it's the it's the guilt of um just wanting to make sure to show up in the same way that you showed up before, which is a little more complicated now, you know, like if I'm walking out the door heading to work and the baby starts crying and needs to be you know, given a bottle, it's going to take five to ten extra minutes than that I wouldn't have to deal with before.

But I think that I work on a small enough team that we are pretty communicative about like can you pick up this piece, I'll pick up this piece later. And and I found the kind of split shift thing of you know, I have a hard out at the end of the work day to relieve June's childcare provider, but I after she goes down to bed, I can get back on email and do you know, spend a few more hours. So I don't think I'm spending a

few or hours thinking about work. It just looks different than it did when I could just stay at the office until work was done. I think I have had less guilt because I'm now working remotely from my team, so it's not as if they can I'm not visible

all the time. You know. Um, I think if I were returning to the same workplace and you know, wanted to make sure I was at my desk at nine am, just like I had been before, as opposed to like listening to a podcast draft while I'm you know, uh, putting June's clothes on the beginning of the day, you know, multitasking at home. Like I think that that that has has made it a little less guilt ridden than I think,

um if I hadn't changed up my workplace. Yeah, I think the optics of parenthood is the part that people worry about, like, oh, I have to leave at five, and that looks bad. I actually I felt this way when I was before I had a kid, And I

know Pecca has talked about this as well. There is you almost feel a little bit there's a little bit of a flip side to that, where I mean, there are enough people in our newsroom who have kids that I feel like there's a fairly universal acceptance of you know, you've got to leave it five, you gotta pick up your kid. But if you it also kind of gives you it's just an easily accepted excuse. So it's not an excuse, it's a reason. But you know, if you if you don't have a kid, you don't have that,

and there's an expectation on childless people. I don't know, Becky, you can talk about it more, but that you or you just have all the time in the world because you don't have that hard out. So there is a way in which it's kind of it's almost kind of nice to have those really strict lines on your day. Yeah. I've definitely read articles that say the biggest productivity hack having kids. Yeah, I'm still waiting for the work efficiency to kick in. Did you find coming back and that

did things feel different to you? Like, I mean, I guess you were you know, your circumstances are different because you were working remotely. Had you been working remotely before? No?

Not until I was yeah, I'm a turn to be leave because I was surprised at how not different things thought when I sort of felt like I stepped back into a you know, five months ago, almost to the point where people I'd see people and I just kind of wave at them and then they do a double take, and I remember, like, oh right, I have to talk to them for a while because I haven't seen them

in so long. Did you like, what did you walk back into Did it feel like the same or did you have to get used to a lot of new things. I think. I mean I, on the one hand, I totally here, Like I had that experience that you were having of like, oh, I'm back at work and I'm doing something that I know how to do, and and there was something really nice about that, like I'm putting on an old coat that fits just right, um, and it's and it's something you know, I knew I know

how to do my job. Yeah, and that was particularly nice because I do not how to I didn't you know, I do not know how to be a mother. I'm learning how to be a month um. And so to feel like I was good at something, incompetent at something by going back at work was a welcome feeling. I don't know. For me, I like, I don't know. I'm I'm finding I love being a mom, I also love

other parts of my life. Well, we appreciate you talking about being a mom with us, and hopefully our listeners will get something out of knowing how to integrate it back into their work lives and still have their other identity. So thank you so much for coming on. Yeah, thanks thank you for having me. So what struck me about Anna's approach to making it all work as a new

parent was not everybody necessarily has a circumstance. She has her own radio show that she's very much the voice of, but she, like everybody who takes some kind of parental leave, had to figure out She had to navigate her own way of making it work. You know, she had to figure out what worked for her experiment and come up with her own approach to both taking time off and then integrating herself back in with her colleagues when she

got back. What I think is unique about Anna as she has a huge platform to talk about these things and I think normalize some of it. Like we just spent a lot of time talking about pumping in the workplace, and there was a woman who was in a meeting with Donald Trump and when she asked to take a

break to go pump, he thought it was disgusting. But obviously pumping is the reality of when you come back to work and when your mom and I think the more we have conversations like these where we say what it is like to be a parent and to work at the same time that workplaces will start to adapt and hopefully change. You're saying it's Okay, to end a meeting with I have to go pump now, and we should do it more. You should, U should do it now, you should do it. I mean you should do it. It

It would just confuse people. I can't like pretend to be a mom to to get fifteen minutes out early from a meeting. No, but you can do it to advance the cause of making the workplace better for parents solidarity. Now it's time for half big takes, happy fake takes. Becca, What is your idea that's not worthy of the story, but you want to talk about anyway? Okay, So my half big take this week is about taking hooky days. I have taken some hooky days, not while I was

working here, of course not. I was never never bloombird um. Once I said I had a migraine, which I do get and went hiking with a friend because she had a holiday office. Yeah. I was younger too, obviously, and it was the most stressful hike I've ever been on. I was so stressed out. I was sure that I was going to be called out for taking the hookie day. So I just feel like hooky days are more anxiety than they're worth. So when you say a hooky day. You mean, not like you feel kind of sick that

you really know. I mean you're going to the movies, right, you are actively doing something other than staying home. And it's not like you said I'm going to take a personal day or I'm taking a vacation day. You're taking a sick day. You're saying you're sick, but you're actually yeah, more than okay. I think that's very stressful and the point I'm just to have fun. Yeah, So I'm anti plan hookey, that's right, I'm a company woman. Wow, really rebellious.

Thank you. So I know that you've probably been storing these up. I have some gone. So what is your favorite not really fully formed idea, Francesca. This half big takes a headline because I think half big takes should and it's called sorry, not sorry for the delay, clever. Thanks. So I was inspired by you actually because you wrote me an email, or you respond to an email and said something like sorry for the delay, and I had taken no notice that it had taken you like a

few hours to write back. And I realized how often I do this. I am constantly sending emails back maybe a day or so later than I think I should have, and then I write I'm so sorry for the delay in responding, or sorry for the delay, or sorry it took so long to get back to you. And I think that no one should really ever write that, because the only thing that's ever gonna do is draw attention to the fact that you took a long time to

write them write them back. And I'm very rarely ever like I'm usually just like, oh, thank goodness, I finally got an answer on that question. Or Okay, this person wrote me back. I'm rarely like they wrote me back, but it took days. Okay. I agree with you, and you know I'm an email minimalist and I would not write that in an email. Okay. It was a chat, okay, And I do think chats are more urgent then emails.

And that's why I said, for them just wasting more time by putting that in the chat, I was sorry, Yeah, but you're it fell on deaf years. There was nothing you needed to be forgiven for, just for giving yourself. No one should email I'm sorry for the delay, but yeah, guys, don't be sorry for the delay. Just send the email back as soon as you can. Or the chat we can agree on this great. This has been half bake takes,

half baked takes. Thanks for listening. I'm on Twitter at francesco today and you can find me at ours Greenfield. If you have your own half baked takes, tweet them at game Plan and we will share them on the show. If you like the show, head on over to iTunes to review us or subscribe. The show was produced by Liz Smith and Magnus Hendrickson. The head of podcast is Alec McCabe and we will see you next week. Hi, Okay,

this isn't even a half fake take. Actually, I just realized this is Breakfast is the most important meal of the day, so I get at