The Clean Person’s Guide to a Messy Desk

Martin Castillo. And why, may you ask, because Martin Castillo never had anything on his desk, and I thought that was maybe the coolest thing I had ever seen in my life. And as I've gotten to be a grown up, I've tried to hold fast to that standard, not always reaching it, but always striving for it. I recognize, however, that I am a little bit different than other people. Many people have very messy desks. The office can be a place of untidiness, germs in bacteria. We're going to

talk a little bit more about that here on Game Plan. Hi, everybody, I am Sam Grobart. I am a writer at Bloomberg Business Week magazine, and I'm Rebecca Greenfield. I'm a reporter at Bloomberg, where I cover the workplace and you're listening to our special episode of Game Plan in which we talk about the office, the office as Petrie dish, the office as dumpster, the office as a vector of infection, bacteria, and other things. I keep a messy desk. What No,

I just don't care. Look at you. Yeah, I'm really cool, rebel without a cause. Now. I just put things on my desk and then they pile up and it doesn't bother me until it does. It causes you know, anxiety. None. You require no medication for this anxiety. Man, This is where we are different. I actually wrote a story defending

my position. Um. It was called if you want to be a Slab, Be a slab, And it was a book review of a book that came out earlier this year by Tim Harford, who is known as the Undercover Economist, And he wrote a book called Messy, The Power of Disordered to Transform Our Lives and it he talks about a lot of different types of mess uses the term very loosely, but there are some chapters on cleanliness and tidiness in the office, and in it he makes the case for being as messy or as clean as you

want to be. Okay, quick question, Tim Harford, Marie Condo, steel cage match. Who do you think wins? Marie Condo I think would murder him. I think she's got the interferocity. Listen. I grew up with free to be you and me. I understand that we are all snowflakes and and different, but there is something about really. I mean, I've seen your desk. In your desk, it's not horrible, it's not horrible. It wouldn't be my desk. It would cause me a lot of problems. But but I see it and it

doesn't offend me. But then there's some people where it's really like crazy pack rat and you feel like something wrong is going on here. They can do what they want to do. I know it sounds really hippy and dippy, free to be you and me, But there is some research to support my way of living. I'm sure there is. In his book Tim Harford, he talks about one study where researchers put people in different types of offices, giving them different levels of control over what the office looked like.

So in one office it was completely austere. People had no control, but it was very clean, so you probably would have loved it. Yeah, that's my kind of office, and another office they got to decorate it the way they wanted to, and then another office they got to decorate the way they wanted to, and then the researchers would come in and take out all their decorations and

put it back the way. That's so Obviously, employees hated that last one the most, of course, But the one that they did the best and that they were most productive and was the one where they had control over their space. Well, it's funny that you say control over their space, because in fact, personally, I could really care less what your desk looks like. But for me, control

over my space means a clean and orderly workspace. I think it's it's hard for clean people to realize that control over my space means not really thinking about it at all. I guess the problem is more and more these days, we see a lot of open office spaces. We see a lot of share office spaces. In some cases, people don't even have their own desk anymore. Every day that you come in, you have to pick a spot, and so you're picking up a place that somebody was

using before. It doesn't even really give you the opportunity to be messy. Yeah, there's a cool term for that called hot desking. Um. Yeah, So in that case, I think your desk can't get us messy as quickly. But that's the other issue, right right, which is something else I've written about. I've just found about every topic under the workplace. Um uh. It was a plea for people not to come to work if they're sick, of course, if they have paid time off to do so. Lots

of people don't. But if you do, and you come to work when you're sick, when we work in these open offices, the germs spread so quickly. It has happened multiple times this fall where you can just see the people transferring it one by one and everyone outbreak. Yes, patient zero. And for those purposes, I think that's different than a messy desk that is absolutely healthy. Right, there's clutter, and then there's biological contamination. It's also really expensive for companies.

In my story I talk about how presentee is um, which is showing up to work sick cost companies a hundred fifty billion dollars a year hundred with a B. That's a very big number. And it sucks, of course it does. So there's a continuum here of sorts. I mean, there's a question of the messy desk. There's a you know you move along that you get into sort of the dirty desk, and how that can affect the health

of the employees who worked there. So this isn't just a matter of how you like to organize your desk. I mean, that's part of it, but there's also this larger issue of maintaining a healthy workspace. To help us discuss these issues, we are going to chat with Jolie care who is an advice columnist, a cleaning expert, and the host of the podcast Ask a Clean Person. Thank you for joining us, Jolie, Hey, it's great to be here. So how have you felt walking through our offices so far?

Have you felt like they're pretty clean or is it messy? Very clean? It's very cool. I imagine that that lends itself to a lot of people taking a little extra pride in their desk. You know, people are house proud, and maybe they're going to get to that in a minute. But we're here to talk more about our workspaces and how we can keep them tidy and clean, which we can discuss maybe are two different things they are, Yes, why don't we actually jump right into that. Can you

define for me the difference between those two words. Sure, So, tidy is more of a visual thing, right, It's having your papers stacked and squared up, and your pens put in their penholder and everything sort of lined up and arranged nicely, whereas clean is much more of germ and crumb and fingerprint type proposition. So the crumbs and the keyboard that is dirty, that is not untidy. I mean, it's also kind of untidy too, you see. Yeah, you

may not see it. The receiver on the telephone that's not clean, but that may look tidy because it may be you know, placed and squared up, but the but the receiver is probably pretty pretty dirty. So I have a question about those two different things. Is tidy something we're not allowed to judge, but dirty is something we're allowed to judge. So if someone's desk isn't tidy, it's okay, that's a preference. But if someone's desk isn't clean, they're gross.

Are we allowed to not everyone? Well, I'm not. I don't. I don't know that's how I feel. I'm just asking. I think that life is hard enough without judging people about their desk. So to give you a little bit of what you want. If your desk is not tidy, but it is clean, that is healthier. That's healthier for

you and for your and for your colleagues. Tell me a little bit about some of the risks of an unclean desk, right, So, if you think about in an open office situation in the wintertime, when everyone has their seasonal case of the sniffles, you think about how fast that goes around the office. One of the ways in which germs are spread that we all know about is

is through human contact, through touching one another. So if you are a person who is not necessarily diligent about handwashing, then all your germs are going back onto your workspace. They're going to your keyboard, they're going to your phone receiver, they're going to everything that you touch. If someone then comes over to your desk and touches one of those things, they're transferring those germs onto themselves because they're touching it.

So it's a health thing from that standpoint, and particularly when you're talking about an open office set up and that sort of constant spreading back and forth of the same nagging cold that everyone has had for five months. So we were just talking about, you know, custodial services within an office building, and like here, they can be exemplary, but oftentimes they do not touch anybody's workspace, right. They're vacuuming the common areas, they make sure the windows are clean, etcetera.

As far as your desk and underneath it and around it is concerned, that is up to you. So I guess my question to you is what should I keep in my desk in my drawer that I should be using to maintain a if not tidy, at least clean and healthy work space. Sure, so a couple of things. People ask me a lot like that that question, and they say it sort of like what's what kind of kit should I have? And then when they say kit, they actually mean too different things, which is which is

smart one? Which should I keep to clean my desk? And they also mean what should I keep to clean myself when I inevitably spill coffee down my blouse twenty minutes before meeting with the big boss. So there are there are a couple of things. I would say probably the number one thing, just because it's so versatile and it can be used for so much, is rubbing alcohol, good old rubbing alcohol. And you can actually get pre moistened alcohol whites, which are very convenient for in office.

They come in a box. You can usually get like a box of a hundred or two hundred. They're incredibly inexpensive. They're individually packaged, you know, like little handy whites, and you can use those to clean your phone, your keyboard, the actual desk itself. You can also use that to take little stains off of your shirt when you dribble. Alcohol is a great stain remover. Yeah, it's a great had no idea. So here here's one more related to that.

Hand sanitizer is made up almost entirely of alcohol. So if you don't have a bottle of rubbing alcohol or that seems weird to you to have around, and you don't have those whites, if you have hand sanitizer around, which most people do, and if you don't, probably your deskmate one over has some, you can use that for stain removal. Yep. It's particularly good on pens, which is in an office. I mean, I guess now we don't use pens quite as optim I still use pens, actually,

you guys, I still use a paper calendar. Oh yeah, so different. It's just basically a thing new different. Now wait, can I just can I'd like to mention here that you talk about pre moistend alcohol wipes. I've actually seen these at our first aid kit, yes, that we keep

on every floor of the building. Now, I'm not advocating that you go and you know, don't pill for the first don't pill for the first pinch, hey, but exactly, if it's an important meeting, maybe you'll find those alcohol wipes for free at a central location in your office exactly. And one other thing actually I mentioned since since we're sitting in a studio, Um, they are great for wiping off headphones. So we're in a studio where where there's a there shared headphones. UM. And I actually it's a

surprise that people learned. I'm actually not a germaphobe. So it doesn't bother me to wear a pair of headphones that I know has been on someone else's head. But a lot of people that would bother. And so if you're a person who that kind of thing bothers, keep a couple of those wipes in your bag, your laptop case, your wallet, wherever, and then you have them and you can wipe things off, and you should always do in life.

What makes you feel comfortable. If what makes you feel comfortable is wiping things off, by all means, if what makes you feel comfortable is not worrying about it, then don't worry about it. So this came up when we showed you my desk, um, and it is both messy and dirty, I would say, And it doesn't bother me, particularly in the day to day. I know it bothers some of my coworkers, but maybe more in a joking way. But I would like to be the type of person

where things don't get messy so quickly. Okay, so there are two things. You know. You you were very good about teaing me up so I could really think about this, and I did think about it, and I and I asked to see your desk because I wanted to see exactly what we were working with, and it was not that bad. You did tell me that oftentimes you leave food around, and I'm gonna i will say, if there is a place where I'm going to get judgmental, it's a little bit about the leaving the food around because

it can attract vermin. And I've worked in offices. I won't tell you which one it was. One day I walked into work and there's a huge cockroach like right near my desk at this very posh, white chee law firm. And it was because frankly, my coworkers have just been leaving food around. There's definitely a roach. Lawyer joke in there something and move on. But I just wanted to highlight that I would like to clarify that at the end of the day, I throw out all the things

from my day. Okay, that's good. I don't leave it overnight. Generally, it's just good office citizenship to be aware that, even if it doesn't bother you, that that it can create fall out for everybody else that's unpleasant. So here's here's my prescription for you. It's very easy. Do a big clean of the desk, to a really thorough clean. Start by getting rid of all of the trash. Then put everything in its place, Put files where they're supposed to go,

put desk successories where they're supposed to go. Get rid. If you have ten thousand pens and you don't need them, get rid of the pens. You don't need that kind of stuff. Square everything up so it looks tidy. And then the final thing is to wipe everything down. So once you have an almost clear surface, then you can do your wiping. You can wipe the desk and the keyboard and the telephone receiver and all of that kind

of stuff. And one issue that you had specifically with your desk was that you have your phone tucked behind a second monitor, and then you have things stacked in front of the monitor, which means you can't actually get to your phone. So I would say just moving your phone out. It's almost like you don't want to use. Some may say that I avoid Well, I do love talking on the phone and I need to, but I avoid the phone because I get a lot of unwanted phone calls. I hear that I hate the telephone too,

So start with that. And and here we are. We're just about at the start of new year, so that might be a good early January thing for you or late December. Start your new year off already with a clean desk. And then this is the most important part.

You're gonna put a calendar reminder on your calendar. Every Friday or Wednesday or whatever your day is, put a ten minute block of time, and you're gonna get a calendar reminder at that time that does time to clean your desk, and so once a week you're just going to tidy everything up, and that's how you are going to have a tidy desk going forward. I was saying, like, oh, I do a lot of this, but usually it's once every three months, not once a week. Right, And if

you have that, here's the thing. It's actually not even gonna take you the ten minutes, especially if you're doing it every single week. It's gonna it's probably a three minute proposition to just square papers up, get rid of things you don't need to, a quick wipe down, and that's it. It will end up also then over time becoming so wrote for you that you'll find that you don't even strew your papers anymore. They just go back

into their place. You will sort of trick yourself into becoming someone like me who naturally just puts things in their place. That will eventually become natural for you. So that's what I would do, Just make a little calendar reminder. I can't wait. Yeah, all happens when the power and potential of every employee and leader in your workforce is released and corn Fairy can get you there by aligning your people to your strategy, attracting, developing, engaging, and reward

them to reach new heights. With corn Ferry, you get a partner who truly understands people, leadership and the new landscape of work, a partner who knows how to take your business up. Learn more at corn Ferry dot com slash up. Since you are an advice calumnist, we thought it'd be fun to ask you about some of the more interesting workplace related questions you've had. Yes, I get a lot of them. So let's just start out at the at the most juvenile. Let's work a little bit

blue here. I get a lot of questions about farting into office chairs, and I laugh every single time I've got one. It just makes me how that people email me with these questions. Question what do they want to know about? How? Why can you do for them? I can tell them to go buy a candle lights al is basically what I can see for them. Um. So what it is is oftentimes people will say, like, there's there was one question I pulled for you guys to

take a look at. That was someone who works in a call center where there's sort of a constant rotation of employees coming in and out, and they sit at stations, but it's not their own desk, so the chair is a shared chair among many people. And and presumably there's probably a fairly high turnover in this kind of job as well. And this person was saying, you know, I sit in this chair and it smells like a fart. Clearly someone who has you know, the shift after mine

is a farter. And what do I do about the smell of this chair? So that I've gotten that question more than once. As I like to tell people, if you ever feel alone in this world, come read my columns, because I can promise you that any problem you have, someone else in this world has had. I've had three separate people asked me how to clean up a pound of butter that has melted into their car seat. Happens

three people. Yeah, You're never alone in this world. And the chair farter is another good example of that one I do get. I do get a lot of questions about out the sort of like the kit what should I keep um which I don't think I finished answering that question. I just got so rubbing, so derailed on the rubbing alcohol fron because I'm so excited about it. But I'll tell you what My other things are microfiber cloth, which is excellent for wiping monitors. It's great for wiping

a mouse. You can use it to wipe off a phone after you've used a rubbing alcohol, great for your cell phone. All of that. So microfiber is excellent. Canned air, which is also called compressed air, is excellent. It's specifically used for cleaning a keyboard, so all those crumbs and the hair and all of that good stuff that that

gets jammed up in our keyboard. One other thing that most offices will have, but if your office does not have it is a great idea to keep a little bottle of dish soap because dish soap will cure a lot of ills when it comes to say that coffee that you spilled on yourself before the big meeting. Rubbing alcohol is also great for that too. But the dish sip is is also a great stain remover. And you know it's just good to have around if you carry a travel mug in and you can wash that out

for yourself. You were talking about stain removal um. Obviously there are a lot of products out there, like, you know, tied pens and shout wipes. Are they worth it? Or yeah, I've got a tied pen in my bag. Absolutely absolutely yea. I was at a lunch meeting two weeks ago and my one of the women I was with, a dribbled soy sauce all down her cream colored blouse. And I looked at it and I said, oh, dear Alex, we've got dribbles. Hold on please, And I pulled the tide

pen out and rescue took care of it. So all that stuff is great. I think I think actually you should just be leaving a tide pen in your pen cup. It's a great, great thing have. That sounds great, well, Jolie Care, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you for having me. I hope so, I hope. I hope Becca will be cleaner for it. I'm gonna get some some of those rubbing alcohol wipes from our first aid kit and my time my keyboard. At least I will cause abstraction. You can go get the wipes.

I'm gonna I'm gonna give you you my phone number and I'm going to have you text me an after photo yeah, we'll tweet it. That would be great. Take before and afters was getting a desk makeover. My main takeaway from our conversation with Jolie as a messy person was that if you want to change, you can, and that's something that I have a slight arch to do.

I think I wish I were more naturally inclined to keep the desk tidy so that over time it didn't get as messy so quickly, and she gave me a good framework for that and suggested if I do set a reminder every week to do some meetening up, it will become second nature. It would be nice to have that second nature that you have. Maybe not as extreme as you. I don't. You don't want it as bad as I do, I don't think, but yes, some degree of it might be if it seems interesting repealing, it

might be nice to have. Yeah, I'm not so extreme in my devotion to my messy desk. I'm just defensive of it. Well, I think that, you know, when we talk about control of your desk, whether it's messy or clean, I think that it's some way to maintain a little bit of individuality in a cubical form. You want to make it yours, and so everybody is sort of distinctive in that respect. Some people want to clean, some people want it messy, but all of those ways are expressions

of themselves. Because in the workplace, to some degree, not to get too bleak about this, but our individuality continues to get sort of subsumed and subsumed and subsumed. And it's I mean, it's not even individuality. It's just a feeling that you are an adult and can make decisions over your life in a way that is good for

you and good for your employer. I had an office once that was a bunch of cubicles, and the architect of the building had said, no one can ever put anything on top of the bookcases that separate the cubicles from one another. You can't put any plants, you can't put in anything. And this architect, by the way, it was Renzo Piano, famous world famous architect. It was like, well, Renzo is not here, so we're putting plants up. Yeah, And and just it's kind of like when somebody tells

you not to do something, you want to do it. Right. We are all at some level right, and now it's time for half baked takes, half fake takes. Do you have a sort of half formed opinion or thought that you would like to share with the group. I do, and it's winter time related my least favorite season out of the four and I have a lot of thoughts about wintertime. So you get into the office, you're wearing a coat, you take it off, you get cold again,

you have an urge to put it back on. Don't do that because if you go outside again and you've been wearing your coat inside this whole time, you're not gonna feel a toasty warm You're gonna feel cold. You need to acclimate to the inside temperature. Right, you don't get the benefit of the coat. You gotta take off your coat and just adjust. I have a similar theory about why I have a queen sized bed at home so that when you go to hotels, the king is a real treat. That is a similar half bag take.

There you go. Now, I actually do have a different half pig take, but given the theme of this episode has been somewhat sort of home eck. I have a little tip for people. I know a lot of people like to bring bananas to the office, because of course they are the world's most perfect food. One thing you can do that I just recently learned if you take some saran wrap and wrap the stem of your banana, it will actually help keep it fresher longer. Have you

done this. I have done this, and I've seen that it works. It will not let your bananas last indefinitely. Nature is still nature, but the stem is where the discoloration begins, and many of the gases that cause the discoloration begin at that stem. So if you wrap it in plastic, it's not going to affect the banana as quickly. I like my bananas pretty green, so yeah, Well, my problem is when you buy banana is oftentimes you bring them home and they last about six hours and then

they're brown. Yeah I wouldn't. I don't like that. So wrapping plastic and that was half baked takes. Half baked takes. Thanks for listening to game Plan today. You can find me on Twitter at Sam Grobart and I'm at rs Greenfield. If you like the show, head on over to iTunes or wherever you listen to your podcast to rate, review, subscribe. We really appreciate it. There's also a new place to find this show and all the other Bloomberg shows that you love and admire. There is a new Bloomberg app.

It includes news, information, columnists, all kinds of fun stuff from the Bloomberg Mothership. You can find it on iTunes or at Google Play just look for Bloomberg. Game Plan is produced by Liz Smith and Magnus Hendrickson. The Head of Bloomberg podcast is Alec McCabe. Thanks for listening, Keep it clean, Get the most from your people, and send your business soaring with corn Ferry. From executive search to

talent strategy, leadership development, rewards and succession planning. Corn Ferry knows up is more than a direction, it's your future. Learn more at corn ferry dot com slash up. One of the greatest Reddit am as I've seen is I'm a vacuum repair man and it's fascinating and he is so passionate and the questions he gets asked are so cool and so weird, and it's kind of like car to like, it's just like car talk, so carta