Real Talk About Disabilities and Work

with disabilities. So the listener that tweeted at us that I mentioned at the top of the show is Gettey and Goldberg, and he's actually going to be our guest leader, but he basically reached out to remind us that when we're talking about diversity, we have to be thinking about disability as well. Yeah. I didn't even consider that when we are doing our diversity episode, to be completely honest, um, So it was good to have giddy and check us on that and that when started doing research for this,

we discover that there's a lot to unpack. Yeah, so it's a huge topic and borderline overwhelming, but we're going to try and get out a few of the challenges for people with disabilities when it comes to the workplace, and you have some stats for us, right, I got stat I love stats. Yeah, Um, these are not super happy stats. Um. There's something called the employment gap that's a big part of the problem. So this is the rate of employment for people with disabilities compared to the

rate of employment for the population at large. And that gap is way bigger in the US than in most other countries. It's around So these are people who want to be working but can't find These aren't people who are being shut out of the workforce by their disability necessarily. It's just that they're not finding work at the same rate. Um. And even when they do find work, they're not getting paid the same There's a wage gap as well. Workers

with disabilities make sixty cents on the dollar. So to put that in text of other wage gaps, the gender wage gap is eight cents on the dollar. So that is really bad. And we're talking about people who are equally qualified. So, for example, a disabled worker with a bachelor's degree earns almost thirteen thousand dollars less a year than a non disabled worker with a bachelor's degree. That's ridiculous. Yeah.

So when I think about disability in the workplace. The first thing that comes to mind is Americans with Disabilities Act, Right. The a d A is the broad umbrella solution to some of these problems. So um it was made law in and it basically prohibits discrimination on the basis of disability. So the a DA is the reason why you see wheelchair ramps and accessible bathrooms. But it doesn't necessarily go far enough. So there are some small businesses that are

exempt from a d A protections. And you can also opt out of the d A if providing a certain accommodation, say an interpreter for a deaf job applicant, would cause an undo hardship, so would basically cost you too much money, and that might be the case for a lot of small businesses. And then that's just what happens when you're at work, But what about all the little things that

surrounding like getting to work or being working person. So one thing I think about is commuting, And in New York City, it's really hard to use a wheelchair on the subway. Only subway stations are reelchair accessible, so you have to just happen to live on a station that is a real chair acceptable, accessible, and then happened to be going to a job or a job interview or a meeting for work. I mean, there's just so much

about it that seems very inaccessible. Yeah, it's not enough for your office to have accommodations if none of the other stops on the way to your office have the accommodations that you need to do your job. Yeah, and you can just see why it's harder for people who have to deal with that to get jobs. And when we're talking about disability, it also goes beyond accommodation. There's

obviously discrimination. And yeah, when I think of any wage gap or underemployment, I always think of bias and discrimination. And unfortunately, if you look different, or talk different, or a walk different, they're probably going to be people who judge you based on that. And we're not the best people to speak to exactly what that feels like. But our guest today is going to help us get into some of those issues. Gideon Goldberg is a software engineer

at the Guardian in London. He also has cerebral palsy, which affects his movement in a few ways, from walking to write Welcome Gideon. Hello, So we would love to hear just for starters, why you decided to reach out to us disabilities Often to think people miss when they think about diversity, so they might think about gender, and they might think about race, and then it's like oh oh and maybe by the way, disability. But then it's like what do we do? It's so hard, or that

people don't know where to where to start. Yeah, I definitely only did not, like admittedly think about that at all when we were making the episodes. We're really happy that you did reach out to us, and like you said, we don't even know how to wrap our heads around it. So can you describe what you do and what accommodations you use every day to make your work possible? Right? So I'm a software engineer, so that's not very glamorous.

I mean I just sit in front of a desk all day and use a computer and sometimes I have a meeting. Um sounds like a job. And so there's only a few sort of small I guess accommodations that I have. I have a special chair which is called like a subtle chair, so it makes my back very straight to help with my posture. And I have a special like hydraulic adjustable desk that I can push up and down and make sure that like it's kind of

all adjusted correctly. Um. So those are kind of the main things, like yes, and what are some ways that you approach work differently that an undisabled person might not think about? Right, So sometimes I'll do things quietly to like deal with things that my my coworkers might never know about. So we have like a quiet room um at the Guardian, which people use for prayer and all sorts of things. But sometimes, like so the phrase I guess it is like getting tight with with the disability.

I have to your muscles all kind of tighten up. And sometimes I'll go and lock myself in there and like do some stretches and come out. So I guess, you know, if people didn't know, they wouldn't think anything of it, or they thought I'm doing my prayers or whatever. But like that's something I do that I sort of managed to day today that people, I guess don't think about. That's kind of interesting. It reminds me. I mean it's not the same, but kind of like the same disruption.

And you're in Francesca's day where she has to go and pump I should start bringing up on the show. Yeah, but it is. It's interesting that, like in the there's a big trend toward open offices, and people often call out, like what about like dating women, But there are all these other examples of times when you might need a little bit of privacy that people don't. And I'm the same, Like I get a special exemption from the hot desking

rule because I'm a special snowflake. But it's like one one, one thing doesn't work for everyone, right, So can you talk about that a little bit more like how it had work for you? Well, I guess because my desk is like high adjustable, and if I have a special chair, so if I just rocked up in any different desk every different day of the week, then it's just not going to be like adjusted. Like I'm fine to like go to a meeting, but I wouldn't want to spend

all day like in the wrong position. And I like, I don't think it's a big deal. So when I move teams, what they'll do is they'll get workplace to like come and move my desk to the new locations. So I'm still co located with my team, but I'm not just in a different seat every day. I think because of um ramps and other accommodations that are made in officers. That's probably what most workers are familiar with when it comes to dealing with something like cerebral palsy

or another disability in the office. But are there other ways that you have to think about your life differently, your work life differently that are less vilsible, like maybe when you're interviewing for a job, for example. Yeah, so, so I guess there's some interesting things. So one of the one of the sort of interesting things with my disability is it affects my like spatial awareness and my

like navigation skills. So I just don't really have a good sense of direction, so I would come out the tube station just walk off in the not wrong direction and not realize. Um. So yeah, technology has helped a lot with that, because there's this thing called Google Maps now and it tells you even which way you're facing, which is a good innovation because I used to print out maps and then not really they didn't help that much.

So I orientate a lot by landmarks, which is a kind of trick that I have because I'm like, oh, I can see the Starbucks, right, So I know it's like left there, but the kind of it's an it's an interesting thing again is kind of hidden. Um. So, oh, you asked me a bit about when you might be applying or starting for a job, right or going for an interview. Um. So I guess generally when you do a job application, they have like a special box that says, is there any any special needs you want to tell

us about? Um? And I'll generally tick the box and then some HR person will reply and they'll say, oh, is there anything we can do? And I'm lucky I don't have a lot of special needs. I guess one thing is because I have quite rubbish hand eye coordination. So if it's like we want to do a whiteboard test and lock you in a room and write this code on the wall, um, it would just be quite illegible. So I'll generally ask like, can I do it look on a computer? Or is there some other way I

could do it? So it's not necessarily like big adjustments, but it's small things, you know, that will help me get through the process. Are you worried that that has ever, um, hindered your ability to get a job? Yeah? So it's really hard to note because when you apply, it's this black box. So if they didn't applied, you don't you

don't know why. Um, but like I'm definitely a kind of disclosure, right, Like I'll always say it because it's also like a sniff test, like if they if I say it and then they don't want to talk to me, I probably don't want to work for them either. So it's one way I I snuff things out. I mean. Another thing is like, um, so both so I work at the Guardian now and prior to that, I worked at the BBC, and both of them have some form

of I guess it's called a guaranteed interview scheme. So what it means is like, if you meet all the criteria for the role, you'll definitely at least get an interview. And that's trying to bridge that gap about like oh you tick the box so you've scared them away. It's

like it means you at least get looking. Then it encourages you to disclose, right because if you're like, I don't want to tell them this thing, and then they can't re accommodate you and you mess up that way, So it's I think a good way of making you like feel safe to disclose something and still hopefully carry on through the process. So looking a little bit past accommodating. Um, some of some of the differences that disabled people have.

What are some experiences you've had with just straight up discrimination or feelings of bias. Oh, I mean I'm maybe like like I work at a very liberal paper, so everyone's really lovely. If anything, they're like almost too politically correct, Like they just don't there to ask anything, man, so I have to bring it up. So it's like, um, it's it's almost like they're trying too hard generally, Like I guess, I mean more negatives whence you get out

of work. So like drunk people basically people say really stupid stuff. Or I've had like when I went to a club night and then i'd shown my ticket to someone and I got to the door and the bounce was like, oh, you can't come in, and I was like what and he said, oh, you're drunk, And I

was like what. And then I put on my poshest voice and I was like, I am not at all inebriated, and I am quite capable of it a thing this establishment And he was like, oh sorry, but like I think day to day that's that's the thing, as long as you kind of set things up right not I

don't think a big deal. The things that you described, like using a computer instead of a white board or not having to heart TSK like these are such simple, easy accommodations to make, but if you haven't come out and talked about them, it seems like like somebody could assume that because you're handwriting is not that great on the white board, that you're going to be less good at your job. And so that can be like a subtle way that that bias influences the you know, you're

just your day to day at work. It seems like you probably have to do a lot of educating people. Yeah, I'm really in favor of having a conversation up front. So the wording in UK is like reasonable adjustments that the employers expected to make. But the way I tend to approach it is like when you have that conversation, it's like, hey, we we've decided to offer you the job, and I'll I'll sort of say, so that's great. Here

is the thing. We have to have a meeting and um and just talk it through and I think as long as you make whatever kind of needs you have clear upfront, it's really not a thing. What you what you don't want is the opposite is like three months in and something weird happened, as they say, why did you go off to that room? And you have to explain it and it's really awkward. So I'm all for

like bringing it up up front. Was there some experience that you had that me and you realize that you wanted to be someone who just talked about these things up front? Yeah? Sure? So I worked before this job, I worked at the BBC on this thing's BBC magazine site called Ouch and that was all about like it's like disability life and being outspoken and talking about your experiences. Um. And that was maybe an extreme example because it was like an all disabled team, so it was very like

embsting us. And that's how it is. I guess it's very different from everyone's experiences, but you kind of you wouldn't want to work on that site unless you were happy talking about your your disability experience, which not everyone is right. Some people they don't want it to be a thing. They they'd rather not talk about it and they definitely don't want it to be the thing that

defines them. You know, was that sort of refreshing like you didn't have that that people trying too hard political correctness because everybody was just sort of out and open and comfortable talking about this stuff. Oh yeah, it's it's such a difference, and it's you know, it's that that feeling when you're with people that you feel comfortable with and you can just shoot the breeze. Well, there's a program in the UK called Access Is it called Access

to Work? Right? Um? Can you just explain a little bit what that isn't how that's helped you? Sure. So that's the scheme and it's run by the UK government. So when you when you get offered a job, you can call a hotline say hey, I've been offered a job and they'll come and assess you and you can describe what additional needs you might have and that that

could be anything. So for me, it's like I need a special chair, but it could be like I need a sign language interpreter from my meeting, or I need a taxi to get to this office. Um. And the idea is that the government will cover all those extra costs. So that it's completely cost neutral for the employer, so they shouldn't have to face that decision of like, oh, we'd really like to employ you, but it's gonna just

be too expensive. Right. Also, does having it through a third party make it a little bit of less of an uncomfortable conversation. Oh yeah, you don't even need to have the conversation. So the thing is like they'll have like an independent assessor who comes out and meets you and writes a report and then basically the employer has to sort of implement it and the cost of covered.

So you have that kind of third party who's not like you don't have to go to your line manager and say, have this really awkward conversation about so you know that you offer me this job, it's going to be really expensive for you. What would be some things that it sounds like you're really gregarious and outgoing and happy talking to people and kind of giving letting them

know what's up about your disability. But what would what would be some advice um for non disabled people who want to be more accommodating or more understanding in the office around their disabled colleagues who might not want to spend all this time educating them, right, so I think it's really not rocket science. Just definitely talk to them like you to talk to anyone else. So don't don't patronize them and treat them like they're five years old.

Or if they have like a p A or an interpreter or someone working with them, don't talk to that person. Talk to them directly, right, because they're quite capable of telling you what they what they need, right. And it sounds like also maybe just don't make assumptions you were describing somebody, assuming you were drunk or you know, somebody might think that there's a reason besides your disability that you're doing something differently, and it's just ask, Yeah, definitely

ask upfront. So there was an interesting case that there's someone I know who's death blind and she'll often go to competence and they're like, hey, we got you, we got you an interpreter, everything's great. And actually she doesn't read sign language right like she uses hearing aids and her needs are completely different. But like, if they just asked up front, it wouldn't have been a thing. Do

you ever get frustrated? Do you mean, like with my how people treat me it just sounds so like, yeah, people always say I'm very enthusiastic personality, so maybe that comes across true. I have you know, I have down times as well, but maybe not so much in the office. And I you know, I try not to swear people. Sometimes I swear at the compiler because the software doesn't work, but I tried to be angry at people. So I guess just to wrap up, what are some of the

little things? Are the big things that you just wish undisabled people would take the time to think about, so definitely in terms of things that employers could do. Like I was asking around to my disabled friends before I came on here, like what should I what should I tell them? What are the top tips? And the big thing that came up was flexible working. It's huge, right, so you might be someone. Um, so my brother recently employed developer and like he had really bad applicants and

this guy was by far the best. And then he said, oh, by the way, you know, I need to work from home because I have this like health ambition and it's it wasn't something my brother had thought about, but he was fine with it and it's worked out like really well. But sometimes you have to be a bit accommodating in terms of allowing that. So things like allowing people to work part time or allowing people to work from home or work unusual hours that might suit there their needs

is a really great thing you can do. Um. I mean, another thing bigger employers have started doing is like disability staff forums. So you might have that. You might have thought about that for say, people of a certain gender or LGBTQ people, but you could also do that for disabled people. And like, not everyone's into that, but for the people who are, it gives them like a place

to network and meet each other and share experiences. Um. And yeah, like I said earlier, having like a quiet space or somewhere where people can go that's not part of the open plan environment is useful for lots of reasons, not just for disabled people, but it helps them out as well. Thank you so much for coming out and talking to us. Thanks. It's my pleasure. I'm a big into the show. It's incredible to me how flexibility around schedules is the answer to so many issues people have

with balancing their lives with work. Yeah. I mean we just had a whole episode about this. Yeah, we talk about it for working families, We talk about it for just making life easier for people who are busy or who have you know, long commuting schedules. And it also turns out that it can be a big solution for people with disabilities to enable them to have more flexible schedules. Yeah.

And it's like, so that is a very modern idea, right, Like flexible schedules is a one way to modernize office, but then the other ways that the offices have modernized instead, it turns out can actually be harmful to some people. I was really surprised by that. Um. So he mentioned hot desking, which if people don't know, is a new fad, especially in engineering to technology worlds, where you can come

in and set at any desk. Um And yeah, and for somebody who needs some special accommodations, like it's a problem and then they can't participate in this new thing. I mean, Gideon was okay with that, but I was like kind of annoyed on his behalf. And the open office, which people have complained about for lots of different reasons, but that it's just another thing that you don't think about that can exclude people who need a private space

for accommodating their work. Gideon is someone who is clearly very open just coming out and saying what he needs from people. And I was just struck by two things. One, how you really don't have to do that much in a lot of cases, like being aware that it's not going to be easy for everybody to do a whiteboard test for software engineers, and just like letting them set up at a computer. It's it's not that hard, it

doesn't cost companies a lot of money. It's just you have to know, you have to know to do it. And so Gideon has to be somebody really comfortable just coming out and saying this is what I need. But the other thing he pointed out that was important to remember is not everyone's going to be that open, but you can just ask, Yeah, it's it's unfair to think that everyone's going to be as gregarious and open and and accommodating. Frankly, it's Giddon, So yeah, some of it's

on us. It seems to me that the takeaway is you don't have to be as worried about offending somebody as you think by just asking what would make it easier for you to like, how can I accommodate you um in working or in interviewing for this job. And now it's time for half big takes, halfy fake takes. You can tweet us your half big takes or call us at two one two six one seven zero one six six and leave a voicemail and we might play

or happy take on the show. Today's listener half big Take is a live one from our colleague Lisa Fleisher, who's an editor in our London bureau. Welcome Lisa, Hello, please give us the half big take that you flew all the way across an ocean to share with us. Yes, I flew here to tell you about how you should clean up after yourself in the office bathroom. Go on.

So picture this. You're in a bathroom and you lean over the sync coounter to check your makeup or your contacts or whatever, and then all of a sudden, your stomach is just completely soaked. I'm so familiar with them there with the shirt that's stripe of moisture on the shirt from leaning against the counter, and you're like, how

did all this water get here? So what I have to say is that when you're washing your hands, you should just take the paper towels that you're drying your hands with anyways, and just wipe up that water around the sink on the syncounter. This is a really good p s A. I think because I feel like people don't treat water like a mess like you think if you spill water, you don't have to clean it up because it's just water. It's just gonna dry, it's not

gonna stay anything. But water is a mess people, and it causes wet shirts, which look dumb in the fist. So clean it up. Yeah, that's so true. Great hat bay take Thank you, Becca. What is your not fully formed thought that you feel really strongly about anyway. This is inspired by me going to a soul cycle class at seven in the morning on Monday. Yeah, congratulations, pat myself on the back. Um, I've decided that working out before work defeats the purpose of working out. I love this.

I went to a morning soul cycle class and took away something negative. Yet well, it was very fun, but okay, so you work out so that you can be in shape, right and you know, maybe lose a little weight and also maybe have a little more energy or stay in shape. When you work out in the morning, you have that energy, but you're very tired from waking up early, and you're also hungry all day, so you're either eating all day more than you normally would. So it's like, why did

I even bother working out? Or I'm trying not to eat to be like normal me. So I'm so distracted by eating that canceled out all the energy I have and I can't concentrate on work. Yeah, people are always like, I work out in the morning because working out in the afternoon means you get too many excuses and you're too tired to do it. Everyone's so pro working out in the morning, but I can't. I I love a good six p m. Yoga class. What about you, Lisa

morning workouts? I would sign up for morning workouts and constantly miss them exactly. I was just like, I cannot get up, too tired, attention all gyms. Cancel your morning, cancel it. It was very full. Don't cancel it, but it's not for me. What is your not fully formed thought that you'd like to share, Francisca, um, my happy take is that Tuesdays are a nightmare for me personally. So I have a sample size of one for this study. I've done on Tuesdays, but that's the right sample size

or happy day. All through my working life, Tuesdays have always been a problem. So it's not just this job because we have Tuesdays for us are like a very podcast heavy day. We've write the newsletter, we have to do a bunch of like production stuff on the podcast because the podcast comes out on Wednesday. So Tuesday's happened to be a busy day for us. But Tuesday's have

always been a busy day for me. There was there was a period of my life in my twenties, who are going to be surprised, where it was like very fit and into exercise, and I used to do a seven a m you have a class every Tuesday, so it made my day very long and hungry. I used to have therapy in the evenings on Tuesdays. So okay, again,

this is me. So I'm trying to universalize this, but I do think there's something about Tuesday's where people think I'm not going to schedule something on a Monday because everyone's just coming back from the weekend. But it's important so to be kind of early in the week. So stuff just like lands on Tuesdays and just thinking about Tuesday's gives me stress. Tuesday's are always like you have

to be on it on Tuesdays. Tuesday is a very unexamined day because Wednesday they call hump day right right, and Monday's it's just you know you got the Monday's. Friday has a half big take for every day of the week. Probably we could do a Monday through Friday series, but um, yeah, Senners, let us know how you feel about Tuesdays, because I want I want some support on this half big day because beck is giving me a look. Anyway, this has been half big takes, half baked takes. Thanks

for listening to game Plan. You can find me on Twitter at Francesca today and I'm at RZ Greenfield and you can tweet us or half Bag Takes or call in at two and two six month seven zero one six six. If you like game Plan, please go over do Apple podcasts or wherever you listen, um, subscribe, rate, and especially review. We love reading reviews and it really helps get the word out about our show. And if you like this show, you might like Odd Lots, another

Bloomberg podcasts about oddities on the market. And if you just want to hear more from us, subscribe to our newsletter at bloomberg dot com Slash Newsletters. This podcast was produced by Liz Smith and Magnus Hendrickson. Head of Podcasts is Alec mcaye. See ya Bye,