No Passion, No Problem: How to Find a Job You Like

roughly seven times in their lifetime. Seven That seems incredibly high. It would be very difficult just to change careers even once, considering that leaving your career and starting a new one would be ridiculously daunting, But what if you did it? You're listening to game Plan. I'm Sam Robert. I'm a writer at Bloomberg Business Week Magazine. And I'm Rebecca Greenfield, I'm a reporter at Bloomberg rag Fair workplace Culture, and today we're talking about something that neither of us have

ever done, which has changed careers. We've both maintained long and prosperous ten years in the world of media and journalism. Yes, I have worked in digital media since straight out of college, and the idea of changing careers now six long, forever years and does seem impossible, And celebrating my twentieth year of employment would also seem ridiculous for me to do as well, particularly since I have mortgage and children and

a car payment. Yes, but we're the outliers. Presumably there are many people out there who would like to change careers. You know, just talk to your friends. I'm sure there's some fraction of them that hate their jobs. Yeah, are like I can relate to your kind of like put yourself on this track. You're straight out of college, you're stressed about getting a job in the first place, and then you turn around five ten years later and you're like, oh, I don't really like this, or I don't like even

like part of my job. Even right now. I feel like sometimes I'm kind of figure out what are the things that I like best about my job and try to pivot myself in that direction, because you could just kind of stand this track forever and then you end up kind of unhappy, right and yet you've invested time, you've invested energy, maybe you've even invested money when it comes to like graduate education or things like that. So there are a lot of forces of inertia that will

try to keep you where you are. But I think one of the biggest problems is actually a very popular sentiment, which has to do with the notion of following your dreams. Yeah, you got to find that passion. You got to find that one thing, that perfect thing that's going to lead you to some professional ecstasy of some type. Yeah, it sounds so nice, right, If you just find your passion, then you'll totally succeed at what you do and be really happy for the rest of your life and rich. Yeah,

that's not hard to do. The states aren't that high. It's it's so unreasonable. It just it's assumes that everybody has a singular passion and that you know, all you have to do is summon up the will to pursue it. It ignores all of the practical aspects of life and the fact that for many people there is no one thing they want to do. They might like a few

things to do. Yeah, So then I guess it becomes even scarier because it's like, if I don't have this passion, but I know that I'm not exactly happy in what I'm doing, then how would I make any sort of change, right, you know, you're kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't. And so it just sets everybody up

to fail. And I think what we have to do to some degree is kind of lower our standards just a little bit, just you know, enough to kind of say, all right, I'm not looking for the perfect thing, I'm looking for something that is better than what I have. I still think that that sounds great, but that it's still really scary even with lowered standards to be like, well, where do I even start, right? How do I find

those like less than passions? Many passions passionates, yeah, passionates to kind of figure out where to steer my career or my life in a happier in direction. As we've said, we have absolutely no experience. I have no idea, which is why we're bringing someone in now who can speak to this. Francesca Hogi was on a perfectly successful career track after attending law school. She was working at a high powered law firm, but eventually fell out of love with the profession, and like a lot of us, she

really had no idea what she wanted to do next. Ultimately, she wound up being a dating coach and matchmaker, a job that if you had told her about it a couple of years ago, she wouldn't even believe existed. We're here with her today to learn about her unlikely roadmap to career satisfaction. Francisca, thanks for joining us. Thank you

for having you. Sam. So, I think before we get to how you got to where you are today, it might be good to know how you decided to be a lawyer in the first place, since that was your first career year after school. So what led you to be a lawyer? Was that a dream or stability or what? Yes, so being a lawyer was not a dream like many people who go to law school. I went to law school because people told me you can do anything with a law degree. It's a great degree to have, and

that's true. However, I don't recommend going to law school unless you actually went to practice law, which I really didn't want to do. But I went to law school because it was a practical thing to do. And um, I had a lot of people telling me I was smart and I should go to grad school. And honestly, I'm bad at math and there's no math on the l s at so right with a legal education, as you said, some people get the law degree actually never even take the bar, never practice law. You did, though,

I did. Yes, why did you decide to kind of follow that perhaps rather traditional path. I followed that traditional path because it was honestly the easiest one. I had a lot of loans. I was very young, and someone was going to pay me six figures and I said, okay, well I don't know what else to do, so I'll do that for a while. So that's how I ended up being a corporate lawyer. Long were you doing that for? I did that for four years. So I worked at a big firm here in New York, and um, it

actually wasn't terrible. I mean considering I had a really good situation at my firm because I had a partner who mentored me, so I actually had a lot of support,

unlike a lot of young associates. However, when I looked at when I looked at that partner and the other partners, I looked at their lives and their lifestyles, and I was like, you know, I don't mind working hard, but I don't want their lives like I don't, you know, so why would I stay in this career when quote unquote success in this career something that I don't want.

You're getting into something I was just about to ask you, which is was there a point during your initial legal career where you actually did feel like, Yeah, this is the job for me. I'm going to stick with this. I'm very happy where I am, or was it always a question. I think I'm a person who I've had a lot of jobs. You know, I've been working since I was twelve years old and I started my babysitting empire. I had a real babysitting I made a lot of money.

It's a babysitter um, and I really haven't stopped since. And I think that there are a lot of interesting things about being a lawyer. I never felt like, oh, I found the thing for me, but there were aspects of my job that I did enjoy, and so I tried to focus on those things. But I always knew that there was something more that I wanted to do

in life. I just didn't know what it was. I think it's interesting because I a lot of people feel that way about their jobs, like it's interesting enough, but I know I don't want to do it. But then most people, I think, just stick with it because of inertia and because it's really scary. It is, and it was. It was scary to leave my law firm, and I had to make a lot of sacrifices and I had to change my entire lifestyle, and um, that was not something that a lot of people are willing to do.

And there were a lot of people who are like, really, why you're quitting this job to run off and start a film production company, and how are you going to make money? And how you're going to support yourself? And I was just like, I have to figure it out. I'll figure it out, because to me, it was not the security was not worth sacrificing this desire. I had to me to do something else. So I just knew I had to try. When you did leave your law firm,

how did you support yourself? So I left with notice, So I didn't, you know, I didn't. It wasn't like I came in. Was like I quit, So I I saved money. Once I made the decision to leave my firm, I moved out of my one bedroom apartment and on the Upper West Side and moved back home. And you know, so I didn't have rent to pay, and I saved money, so I had some cushion. And then once I was working in film, I started taking a lot of little

production jobs to help support myself. So I did wardrobe, and I did casting, and I worked on music videos. I mean, I had a lot of random production jobs. I mean I was really like like when I say I've had a lot of jobs, I've had a lot of jobs. I've done a lot of different things. I did you choose film? Was was that a passion for you or or what made you go there? So I've always loved film. I actually my undergrad degrees and TV and film production, so it wasn't completely out of left field.

You worked in film for how long? So we started, and I say we, I had a I had a partner in my production company. We started our production company in two thousand four. Um. I actually started producing some short films while I was still at my law firm. So I started doing a little you know, side hustle. UM and then we so we had it for about five years before we wrapped it up. And tell me a little bit about the wrap up. Why did that happen and how did you feel when it did? So?

The reason that we wrapped up is because it's extremely difficult to be an independent producer in Hollywood. And you know, I think I went into it very idealistically and feeling like, you know, I'm going to make these great movies and everyone's going to love them, and as long as you work hard, you can make it happy in and it's not really the case in that industry. There's so many

considerations and there are a lot of challenges. UM. One thing that was really pivotal is UM two friends of mine who were also independent producers, and we were in that whole hustle in l A together for years. They were like the hardest working, most connected hustlers I knew. And they had so many projects that they were setting up at studios and making no money, because you make no money when you set up a project at a studio. It sounds impressive, but you don't actually make anything. Are

you making very very little? And they were, you know, they were really struggling and nothing was getting made. And I looked at them and I said, you know what, if these two aren't getting their projects made, then I'm not going to get mine made. And I love movies and I love film but I don't. I don't need to make them. So actually because of them looking at them, that was why I decided to quit. And side note, they won an Oscar this year for Spotlight. I've heard

of them. Yes, that's very good movie. So it was kind of like your heart was in it, but not enough to be just working for the love of the work. Yeah, And because I you know, I was like, like I said, I was doing all these different odd jobs to support myself and it was just this constant hustle and I just didn't see the light at the end of the tunnel. And so I just I knew that I had to pivot and find something else to do. And so that's how I got sucked back into the law. Yeah, tell

us about that. How that decision must have been kind of hard. It was. I mean, I definitely felt a little bit like I had failed. You know, it was not easy to say, like to say everyone, hey, I'm going to be this big movie producer and then be like, actually I'm gonna go back and be a lawyer and send at a desk all day. But you know, that

was challenging. But you know what, we are our own worst critics and self compassion is a really important skill, and I I just knew that I needed to buy myself some time and um, and that's how I kind of allowed myself to take some weird deeptours because I was like, well, I'm working as a lawyer again, and I really don't see myself as a lawyer, and I know I want to do something else, but I just don't know what that is. And um, that's how I

ended up on Survivor. I want to say that it's encouraging to hear you say that you went back to law, because I think one big scary part of leaving your first career is this idea that once you're off that track, it's impossible to get back on. And I think people put so much pressure on themselves about that, and just there's so much fear that keeps us stuck because we're like, well, if I give this up, then then what then I'll

never get it back. And it's like, you know, honestly, if you're resourceful and you're hard working, and you know you're willing to just be honest with yourself and with other people and say, yeah, I was doing something else for a while, and now I'd like to do this again. I mean, it was not as challenging as you would

think to pivot back into my previous career. Having that roadmap can sometimes be very sort of useful in therapeutic even, like to your point, if you can't get out of the career that you're currently in, it a way, even having the ability to plan a way out. It might not pay off for a year or two years, but knowing that you are progressing and taking some sort of agency and action can make you suddenly feel a lot

better because you know that you're actually doing something. Yes, And I think that that's important for people to remember, because you know, we do have this conversation around passion and following your passion and in our culture, and that puts a lot of pressure on people to feel like I've got to quit my job, burn that bridge, go follow my heart and then I'll be a billionaire. And it's like, you know, it doesn't work that way of

most of the time, and that's okay. And you can create a plan and you can buide your time, and you can start side projects, you know, like I did when I was when I was actually both times I transitioned out of law, I started my new career as while I was still working as a lawyer. Um, you know, so doing that, making a plan and just knowing like, Okay, I'm going to have some patience here because this is my life and it doesn't have to happen overnight. UM.

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So I want to go back to Survivor um and you being on it um. So you're back at your back in your lodge job and you're again trying to figure out what to do. Yes, so you go on Survivor. So right before I went back to the law, I are you familiar with the show The Amazing Race? Yeah? So I love that show and I love to travel, And I was like, I used to watch that show and be like, oh my god, I would win this show.

I had this dream of being on the Amazing Race, and so I had applied to be on the Amazing Race and my partner and I, um, you know, we made it really far through casting, like we got our vaccinations, like we got our visas and everything, and then at the last minute they cut us and I was totally devastated. Um. And then a year later I got a call like, hey, I want to come to l A and maybe Beyond Survivor. And my original answer was no, because that looks really miserable.

But then I thought, well, you know what, this opportunity is presenting itself for a reason, and you know a lot of people would kill for this opportunity, so I should do it. And I went into it thinking, you know, I know how television works. I know that you know, I'm probably not even I can just say yes to the possibility because I'm not going to get cast, like you know, I don't care enough, like it's not going

to happen. And then of course it happened, and I was like, oh crap, I actually have to go to on Survivor. Now, yeah, that does sound really scary to be on Survivor sounds scarier than quitting my job. So then, how how did you figure out what to do after after your second low stent. So after my first season of Survivor, went back to my job. My job was very understanding about letting me take time, and then I

got invited to come back for a second season. And my first season was a disaster, like I am not good at Survivor so and so I thought, Okay, well, it can't be any worse the second time, like, let me do this again, and I did and it was a disaster again. And so after that I was like, Okay, now I've gone on Survivor twice, I've had the same experience twice, and I'm going back to the same job again, like now, like this is it. And one of the things that had me really stuck for a long time

was this whole question about passion. And I felt like I'd already pursued a passion by going into film, and I didn't know what my passion was. And you know, that's one of the reasons why I think this whole conversation that we have and our culture around passion is so harmful. It's like, if you had one burning passion, you wouldn't know it right. And so most people don't have one burning passion. And it's one thing like if you have a passion but you're suppressing it or you

don't think it's practical. But for most of us, it's like, I don't know. I have lots of things I'm interested in. And I definitely spent a long time thinking like maybe film was my passion and I blew it and now I'm a failure and now I'll never have a job that I love and um, you know, I got stuck in that thinking for a few years. So the great thing about Survivor, like I said, after my second season, I was like, Okay, you know what, I don't care.

I'm going to figure something else out. Um. And that was when I discover that matchmaking was a real profession that like real people did. Um. And I liked meddling in people's love lives and I always had and and I actually had a dating advice blog back when I was a lawyer, just as a fun side project, which

you know, at the time I had. They didn't provide any clue to me, like, oh, there might be something here that you like, you could pursue because you know, what would you if you don't know about this industry, Like, you know, it's not like I'll just go get a job in dating. So, um, when I discovered that matchmaking was a real profession, and I said, you know what, this is something I think I could do and be

good at and enjoy doing, and so I went for it. Wait, how did you discover that matchmaking was a real profession from watching Millionaire Matchmaker? It was in flight magazines where the ads in the back of do have those ads? And it was no, it was not from either of those sources. Um, it was actually very just serendipitously. I met a woman, was having a conversation with her at a Fourth of July barbecue and she was like, oh, yeah,

there's this black male matchmaker I follow on Twitter. And I was like, there's a black mail matchmaker, Like who is he? And his name is Paul Brunson and I was like, I want to follow him on Twitter and I did. And he has an m b A and he had a finance career and he left that to go start his matchmaking agency. And I was just like reading, you know, his articles and watching his videos and I was like, this guy like really has it together, and I kind of saw myself in him and basically just

made him become my friend on Twitter. And and you know, at one point he tweeted that he was going to be speaking at the Matchmaking Institute's annual conference, and I was like, that's a great conference. Yeah, And I was like, there's a Matchmaking Institute, sign me up and they have a conference, like what you know. It totally blew my mind and I was like, and I tweeted, I was like I want to go, and he's like you should come, and I'm like I will. And I went to that

conference and it totally changed my life. There really is you know, Francesco, what I like about your sort of philosophy, it's a it's a practical idealism, and I think that it's a voice that should be heard more often than the what I think of is the more dominant voice, which you've already referred to, which is, you know, you gotta follow your dreams, man, you gotta find your your one thing. It puts so much weight on that one thing. And to your point, I think many people probably would

like doing a few different things. Yeah, and you know, I just think it's great that you're able to kind of identify that and not it keeps you moving, you know, it doesn't. It doesn't mean that a setback is a catastrophe. Yes, yes, you're able to kind of bounce back and move on to the next thing. Yeah. People just need to try things out and not that you want to, you know, be like I'm going to start a new business every year.

I mean maybe you will, but um, but just at least I mean when people say to me like, oh, I just don't know and I think I'm interested in this, I'm like take a class, like, just go online, watch YouTube videos, like read a book, like you just see

where that interest leads you. And you know, it doesn't have to be like, you know, you have a six figure salary today and doesn't mean that you're going to quit and have that you know next week if you you know, follow a new interest, but you could still get there and um, you know, if that's what you want or you know, if that's one of your concerns, but just at least explore what interests you and just be open to the serendipity that happens when you are

open to new experiences and has well. Thank you so much for coming and talking to us. I think that that was really interesting than you encouraging. You don't have to have a passion and you just to quench your job necessarily you feel stuck, but you might become a matchmaker. Thanks for coming. Thank you guys for having me appreciate it. I find Francesca rather inspiring. She's pretty fearless about it all, and she seems to have a pretty good head on

her shoulders. Yeah, I still think not everybody could do what she does from a financial perspective, but also would want to. It's still scary, like it's still too much of a risk to kind of jump into things you're not really sure about. But it was really encouraging to hear her say that she didn't know at all what she wanted to do the second time when she was in law, and then just talking to somebody realized that there was this profession that seemed interesting to her, right.

I mean, that's definitely part of the scary part for me. It's like, I think the only professions I know are like doctor, lawyer, pr person, teacher, but there are like all these other things people do. You're like pulling from like a modern day Richard Scary book, What do people do all day? I think you're right. I think that she, in the case of her latest incarnation, with matchmaking and coaching for dating and so forth, it's sort of found

an opportunity that otherwise would have eluded her. But that's part of it. You have to just kind of put yourself out there. You have to be open to like new ideas, new people. It's not easy. It's in its own way, it's sort of its own job. But that's the kind of task you have to take on if you're thinking about switching. And if there's one thing that I think we all should learn is that follow your passion is dumb. Follow your passion is an illusion. Yes,

it's just something to keep people down. Yeah, I mean she followed her passion right, and that didn't work out unless she's sign actually semi serious about the keeping people down thing. I think it's like, you know, you established unreal to stick goals so that everybody recognizes them as unrealistic and then feels like, well, I guess I should just stay here. Yeah, all right, and now it's time

for half baked takes half fake takes. These are some thoughts that Becca and I have had over the last week or so, little observations, things that we like to, uh, you know, talk about when we're not actually doing the show. But we're going to share them with you right now. So Becca, I'm going to start with you. Okay, I'm gonna do too, because I think that I am always negative and I want the girl to know that I like things, but I'm going to start with a negative one.

Oh okay, Okay, bear with me, audience. You know when you go to Whole Foods and you fill up those brown cardboard boxes with the Whole Food salad bar, or they use the same boxes at like an overpriced place that might have like a kale salad or you know your favorite like sandwich eatery or I think you can also put ribs in there. Totally ribs in there. Those boxes are horrible and they're so hard to use. The flaps just get in your way. I hate them. Do

you know what I'm talking about? This podcast segment of Andy Rooney Press. Okay, I know I'm like her imogeny, but I learned because I did a little research. It's the same company that makes Chinese food containers makes these boxes, and they're like, they're great for the environment, they're compostable.

But the reason that they're so annoying is that they're made out of one piece of paper so that there are no seams so they don't leak, so for functionality, but then like ironically it negates the functionality of the box because they're so hard to eat out of because the flaps just like get in the way of your hands. I'm very sorry for you. Anyway, that's my negative. Have big take that implies you have a positive. You did a recommendation once and so you inspired me, and so

I'm going to recommend my new podcast obsession. It's called Bad with Money. It's by this woman Gabby Dunn, who is really bad with money, and she just has a really it's like kind of a personal diary of her life trying to be better at money, and she talks to different people about different aspects of money. And I just really like it. That's awesome, So I like things. Look at that anyway. Stuff anyway, what you got, I have a tip something that I think makes a big difference.

It's a small little thing. If you work at home, you know, everybody has their ritual about sort of getting into work mode when they work at home, because it's very easy to sort of stay in your pajamas and just sit in your bed and do whatever you have to do. Obviously, you should get up, you should shower, you should put your clothes on. But here's the other thing you should do. Put your shoes on. I know it sounds strange, but there's something about having shoes on that,

to me, really feels like you're at work. If you're only in your socks, you're still at home. Yeah. I love this one, and I was thinking about it the other day when I was working from home because I put my slippers on. Okay, It's like, this is not what Sam means, and I definitely don't feel like I'm at work and I need to put my shoes on. Right, If you want to be productive, put your shoes on. I love that. And this has been half baked takes,

half baked takes. Thanks for listening. My name is Sam Grobart. If you want to find me on Twitter, you can find me at Sam Grobart and I'm at RZ Greenfield and our guest today, Francisco Hogi is at Dear Franny. Thanks for listening. See you next week, get the most from your people and send your business soaring with corn Ferry. From executive search to talent strategy, leadership development, rewards and succession planning. Corn Ferry knows up is more than a direction.

It's your few Sure. Learn more at corn ferry dot com slash up. Alright, Okay, you can lead because we decided you're going to do that. Okay ginger Um, Okay, I'm you aren't that old either, right. That transcends our age gap. That's um right, so um we were saying, yes, okay um. I have been in the same career since ever. I've always worked in