It's OK to Cry at Work — Sometimes

get teary eyed in the office. Yeah. For a story I'm working on, I asked career experts about this phenomenon and they specifically tell women and men too that under no circumstances should you show extreme emotions in the workplace, especially of the crying variant. So, yeah, everybody knows you're not supposed to cry at the office. But let's like back up and look at that a little bit. What

is so bad about crying? Why is it a taboo? Well, there's a lot of research that shows that people judge you, as we've shown on our show for almost everything, you get judged in the workplace, and when it comes to crying, it makes you look weak and too emotional for the job, especially for women. And that's that's not something that's not a sign of leadership. And I think it just makes other people uncomfortable. So it's like the real reason you shouldn't cry at work, it has more to do with

other people than with you. But the thing is, the more we've talked to people, the more we realize that almost everybody has a crying story somewhere in their work history. And in fact, we asked some of our co workers here at Bloomberg to share with us some of their crying stories, and here's what they had to say. I once cried at work because one of my former bosses

was a big, mean baby. I've never cried at work because I don't think I have sufficient access to my emotions, and also because I think I probably cried it works so many times on the inside that it became unnecessary to actually cry on the outside. I cried at work because of unexpectedly condescending and sexist advice or feedback from a female manager. I have never cried at work because I don't think I've had an occasion to cry at work. Although I cry all the time. I'm a big crier.

I cry at home. My music makes me cry. I have never cried at work because, um, I don't know. I kind of feel like you shouldn't. People shouldn't cry publicly. I I personally view it as a sign of weakness. But I have cried at work about personal matters. Uh. When I told my boss about my divorce, I cried. And I've learned about the death of my brother in law at work, and I also cried in a stairwell. Then I kind of sat at my desk for a while, but I was kind of shaking with rage. Happy songs

make me cry, Sad songs make me cry. I almost always cry at a movie, but for some reason, it just hasn't happened at work, or if it has happened, I've repressed the memory. So I had my little cry. I came back, sat down, said nothing, and he came up and he said, you know, I'm really sorry. I was over the line. I apologize. If you're not human

at work, you've got the wrong idea about work. I don't think it should be excessive, but I think it's sort of perfectly natural in the right circumstances, in the right seting. So I really loved that clip, and I especially related to the person who talked about crying because of personal reasons. So they're pretty intense things like a divorce, wars um or a death in the family. But that's

definitely why I cry at work. Yeah, you were telling me that you're more of a like cry at work over something personal that happened, whereas I can only remember one incidance a few years ago where I cried for a reason like that. More commonly, when I've cried at work, it's been because, like I'm having a really intense conversation

about work and something really gets to me. Yeah. So, I mean, people cry at the office for various reasons, and it turns out that not only is this happening so this is a reality that we need to deal with, but also it could be good for you. Yeah, there's science that shows that when you start crying, you stimulate certain brain chemicals that then rebalance the equilibrium in your mind,

so you actually feel better after you've cried. That makes sense to me, Right, It's kind of like when your nausea is on't either up you feel better, have to goin to let it out. Um, And this is not We're not saying that you should be crying every single day at work. If that's happening, that's probably a sign that there something else going on. Yeah, that's a red flag.

But what we're saying is that one it happens, and that too, maybe it's more than okay that it happens, and this advice that you shouldn't do it doesn't address that at all, Right, And because it happens, we need maybe less career advice about how bad it is to cry at work and more advice about what you should do once you've started crying, and to figure out what some of that advice might be. Our guests today are

crying experts. Susan Orlean and Sarah Thier host the podcast cry Babies, where they ask people about what movies, music, and TV shows make them cry. So thanks for coming on, pleasure, So why don't we start with why a show about crying? Well? Why not? Is our reaction? I guess well, Sarah can tell um specifically where the idea original with her. But Sarah came to me and said are you into crying? Which I will never forget as a question kept me a little bit in suspense, like what what's the next

part of this conversation? Um? And I love the idea that we were glimpsing into people's um what was an emotional release for people, And the range of things that people have brought to the show have been so broad and so interesting and and it's really been it's like a portal into much more, obviously than just it's not surprising how people, even people who are a little guests we've had who are like, I never cry, then of course they end up having more crying kings than any

other guests. But a couple of especially guys, tend to do that, like I'm not much of a crier, but oh my god, I really lost it at this concert, and then they'll have this beautiful story about it. I feel like it it taps into um something that they didn't even know about themselves in a way, or maybe weren't willing to admit, which is sort of delicious for us. Have you noticed any common themes that run through these stories? Oh? Yes, yes, yes,

And and that has been really interesting. As we've done the show for a fairly long time now, we've got a lot of anecdotal evidence of what really pushes people's buttons. Number One Pixar Movies. Yeah, there's no question is yeah, Pixar is the number one, like just genre c hue.

But the scene that thematic cues are uh well, one major one is sense of longing and the path not taken, wistfulness that really gets people, and um, the hero's journey, people who go beyond themselves in life and sacrifice a great deal witnessing that makes people cry as well in art,

and there of course lots of parent child m issues. Interestingly, when when we started the show, I assumed lots of people would come with UM romantic heartbreak as the most typical umque for crying, and that has been surprisingly underrepresented. It's it really is much more um these themes of of wistfulness and looking at a past that you can no longer reclaim. It's a different kind of emotion. It's more introspective. They're not the typical heartbreak my my girlfriend

left me, my husband, you know, walked down. I mean, not the stuff of country music songs, not the broken heart, as much as it is something deeper. Hear you guys talk about what makes people cry. It's not exactly the same reasons we cry at work. I think when I think about crying at work, it's kind of like a shock to your system or a frustration like a blow to your ego. Um, have you guys cried at work? Yes? Yes, yes,

well you know it's um. I was. I was enjoying looking back on my tears at work because for many years I've worked at home alone, and you know, I certainly cry, but when that's because I just am not getting work done, but no one's around to appreciate your yeah, and so it's like not crying. Um. But I My most epic cry at work was I had a job shortly after I got out of college, working at a radio station. I hated the job, and I did probably a really off job at my job because I didn't

like it. And one day I was called in by the general manager and basically basically he fired me. And I was so irate and I was humiliated, but I was also really angry because I thought, I hate this job. It's not the job that you presented it as being. And I know I'm doing a bad job, but it's a bad job, and it's it's not what I thought I was signing up for and against what I don't

even think I thought it through. But I started crying, and it was tears of both God, damnit it, I don't want to be fired, but also you can't do this to me. This is not right. And I didn't give it a second thought about is this a good or bad move. It was all in the moment, meant just pure because I was actually shocked that I got fired, and I just stood my ground and said, hey, this job is not what you told me I was gonna be doing, and I'm really unhappy and I'm and you know,

went on and the tears are just gushing. Really, so you didn't feel any like you didn't. You didn't feel a shame or like try to curb it. You just went with it, you know. I was. I was not thinking. I didn't have that overlay of thinking, Okay, this isn't good. I should dial it back and be calm. I just I was caught so off guard, and I had really been this had been brewing because I really was not happy in the job, and it really had been pitched to me as something very different. So it was pure,

unfiltered reaction. And in a way, because it was so authentic, I think I caught this guy completely off guard. When I finally caught my breath, he sat there for a minute and then he said, all right, well, why don't we try to read think this job and make it work. So I basically talked him cried him out of firing me. But it worked. Yeah, I mean more than him going okay, okay, stop crying. You can have your job. I've done that with a speeding ticket before, exactly, but I tried with

this meeting ticket. It didn't work. Um, I think that he he said, all right, I I understand what you're saying, and let's try to change this job and make it work. And I was astonished. I wouldn't say that. I then thought, good, anytime things aren't going my way, I'm just going to start crying. I didn't put this in my tool kit as a thing to do in the future when I was frustrated, but I'll never forget it because it was.

It was such a a surprise ending. I think also the lesson of your story is like, crying can work, but it has to be authentic, right, and I I have to really emphasize this. This is was. It wasn't where I suddenly thought, well if I start to cry, he'll he'll back off. I think it was. It was so real, and he sensed that it was real, that it was me just being so frustrated and feeling like I hadn't been able to express this, and also that

I was right. They had hired me to do something that I wasn't really being used to do and it felt bad. So you want to hear my crying story. Yes, very different from Susan. It's completely different from Susan's. I was doing a play at Lincoln Center UM with David and Amy Sadara Us and I played like a cricket and an old lady and we all played multiple characters in it, and I was so proud of my work in it, and uh we did. We had our opening night. It was part of Lincoln Center Festival, was back in

the nineties. And we had our opening night and it went great. And then the next day all the reviews came out and they were all good. But in the New York Times review, they didn't say anything bad about me. They just didn't say anything about me. And I came to the theater that night and I was just like, everybody was like hi in that and you know that kind of sympathy thing. I can trigger you to cry the minute somebody is doing something that feels like sympathy,

or that anybody trying to give you a hug. In one of those moments, everybody was like hey, And it was a huge farcical comedy and we were all improvisers and we were never serious with each other. So in that kind of environment for someone to just burst into tears, which I did, nobody knew what to do because we were all used to being flip and sarcastic with each other. And I had the genuine display of emotion of just feeling like and I couldn't even speak. It was like

the ugliest cry on the planet. It was convulsive snot bubbles, the works, and um the only person who could, Like all the other actors in the show were just sort of like, I don't know how to deal with honest human emotion. I'm used to faking it all the time, right, And when when you're not the person that people expect crying from, I think it's it can be even worse because then like you've because they assumed like, oh, you've never cried before, so this must be the most upset

you've ever been exactly, but it's not. Doesn't necessarily map that way. It's that old saw of they told me this wouldn't happen, and that's exactly what it was, because I was the that was the even keeled person and among all these super ultra creative types. So the only person who could talk to me was David Sedaris's boyfriend now husband, Hugh, who was our set decorator, Hugh Hamrick. He came up to me and he's like, I just want to tell you that you're my favorite person in

the show. And I was like, that's making me crime and more like, I just felt this sort of really unwarranted just hatred towards him for showing me like human decency that none of the other horrible actors in the show in the show could say to me was my husband was in the show. That show. I'm just remembering. Nobody could could be nice to me except Hugh, and I rejected him. I was like, I'm not the best

person in the show. Oh I was awful. And then I had to, of course, you know, put vizine in my eyes and um put tons of extra concealer around my nose and out, and I felt like I had a head cold from all the it's not and what what not, and it was just awful. And I think that's the night that like all my relatives and my in law came and saw the play was blow energy. It was horrible, but you know, it was a learning

experience for sure. There's also the lesson is also there's no right way to talk to somebody who's crying in front of you in the workplace. Yeah. I talked to this executive coach who tells me that she coaches executives on how to deal with crying because it is so awkward for people to be around people who are crying that nobody, nobody knows what to do. And her number one piece of advice is just like stay quiet, Like

saying something makes it worse usually. But you know what, now that I'm older, I have to disagree with what I just agree with that because I look back at what Hugh did and it was a very beautiful human

thing that he did. And it kind of goes along with my rule now, which I call I'll always go to the funeral, which means when someone passes away or when their relative passes away and they need support, Yes, it's probably going to be awkward for you, but you can't put a price tag on that just gesture of kindness that you're making towards someone that you care about, even if they don't know how to deal with it, You know what I mean? I can imagine um in

my big work cry. I am sure that my boss was deeply uncomfortable, and he wasn't someone who could have in any way come over and put a hand on my shoulder and said, hey, I'm really sorry that you're I mean it just there was nothing he could do except sit there and in in a way that was that was fine. UM, I think it. It's better than a lot of the other options. I'm not sure what the would have been. One thing, um also that I noticed I didn't have a warm relationship with my boss.

I hardly knew him. Um. It was always different from that point on, And I won't say better. I won't say that it was closer, but it was different. It was different. Two have this very emotional encounter and I left that job just a couple of months later. Um, because I got a job I really did want. But it was our relationship upped up until that point had been completely phony or it existed, but he didn't know me in any way um, I didn't know him, and

so there was some value. Even though it was I felt kind of bashful because it was a little like tearing my clothes off, um. But it did change the relationship, and I would say probably changed it for the better. It was sort of an authentic moment that we had together that was upsetting that ended up resolving surprisingly in a good way. That there was nobody was I certainly wasn't trying to be careful. I just let it out, And I agree that was the same with mine. I don't.

I mean, at the time, I felt mortified because because I felt like I had this realization that these people liked me better when I was just this sort of surface person. They liked it when it was light and fun and we were always joking around. And I had broken I burst through that um glass not ceiling, wall floor, the glass floor. I burst through it and it kind

of pops something. But I'm still friends with almost all of the people that were in that production, and I know that they have of tender feelings for me because I did that. They always tell me like I have a good heart as opposed to their evil, black hearts. But um, I know that it enriched our relationship in the long run, which is what you're talking about too.

So is that the case for crying at work then that you know, once you have this emotional bonding experience, that you have a more real relationship with your coworkers, or at least feel better. I think it's probably case by case. I I don't think it would be wise to see it as a as a universal um probably though crying at the CIA, Yeah, I'm just thinking. You know, you were in a play and it was a creative

um environment. I was in a I mean, radio station wasn't the most creative place in the world, but there wasn't the sense of competition and um rank And I just don't know that each I think each work situation would be so different that it's kind of hard to to say. Also, crying can be induced by so many different occasions. Or it can be that you're at work and you're upset about something not related to work and having trouble getting it out of your mind. Um, And

that that's a whole other issue. We've Yeah, we've talked about like the work related cry versus the personal stuff is happening that bleeds into work and whether one is better than the other. Well, I I think it's tricky if you're so distracted and upset about something that's going on outside of work that you have trouble composing yourself at work. I think that may maybe that's not the

best thing. I mean, maybe it suggests you need a little break from work because it's I don't think it would be a very a very receptive place to be. It also suggests you're in worse shape than you think. If you're really having trouble while you're at work, UM have creating a separation from the stuff that's troubling you. That's what I always cry at work. I don't know, I think that. I think work cries for me are

usually I mean that was that. My story is about a review of the play I was doing, but it had a lot to do with my own feelings of insecurity.

If you're if it's work cry, I feel like it's it's just a trigger, you know, and then it goes into something deeper, especially if you're really sobbing, right and we spend so much time at work that you know, when personal stuff happens, there's there's there's a decent chance that it will happen, just like during the hours when you're on the job, you're going to get that bad email or phone call that was going to trigger something.

And yeah, I think before email, um and people were at work and they were really separated from their personal lives. Now you you go to work and you can be as actively involved with all the stuff that's going on in your personal life just seamlessly because you're getting emails or you're uh texting, and if you're having an issue with a partner or some family drama, it can still

be there right in front of your face. I think in the past, people came to work and you know, they would come home and find out, all right, what happened while I was away. It's not an ongoing UM. And if they were men, they be like, I don't care what happened when I was right, as long as nobody's bleeding. When I get home, bring me a whiskey, three fingers whiskey, Sam, make it a double. Well, thank you so much for coming on and talking to us about crying. Um, maybe we should all go home and

have a good cry. I was very moving. I know I'm feeling I'm feeling a little weepy. To watch Schindler's List. Thanks for having us on. It's really been a pleasure talking to Okay, so neither Susan nor Sarah we're willing to go out on a limb and advocate crying as a work strategy. I do think they both had kind of transformative experiences that came out of crying at work. Yeah, and I do think there is a way to be

strategic about your crying at work. The story that I was reporting about crying in the office brought up this research out of Harvard where this woman did five different studies measuring people crying at work, and when they were crying, they after they're crying, justified their tears for various reasons, and one of the reasons was, Oh, I'm so passionate about my job. Another reason was oh I'm sorry, I'm just getting so emotional about this. And then in the

third scenario, they just didn't justify it at all. And when you frame it in terms of passion for work, people rated criers as more competent. So the best reason to cry at work, or what's seen is the best reason is just that you're so into your job that you're overcome with emotion. Right, and you can see this playing out like in a performance review, which is a scenario where people cry. I've also written about that, Um, yeah, you're in a performance review. Your boss is something that

just hits a nerve. You start crying because you can't really hold it back. And if you say I'm sorry, I just love my job so much that it's hard to hear you think that I'm not dedicated, they'll think of you this as this dedicated worker instead of as this like weak crier who can't handle criticism. I love that. It reminds me of when I used to wait tables and I felt like the best way to get a good tip was to seem kind of annoyed. And I feel like that made people think that I must be

working really hard because I was so stressed up. Did that work? I don't know. I never really was very good at it. I didn't get very good tips. I tried a lot of different strategies. Well. Besides for the passion thing, another thing that I was told by an executive coach was also too. As I mentioned a little in the interview with Susan and Sarah um, trying to give yourself some strategies for if you're gonna cry, figure out your plan, you know, like do you need to

excuse yourself to get a tissue? Do you need to go to the bathroom, do you need to ask for a break? Like knowing what you're gonna do, I think is more helpful than trying to triage as you're tearing up. Yeah, And I just want to call out the gender thing. I know we always go there, but it's actually harder for women to stop crying once they've started because our tear ducks are smaller, And I just think that's fascinating.

Of course we get stigmatized for it, but that one second period you have when you start to well up, we have no control over it. Once that starts, you need to already be thinking about how you're going to explain you're crying and not try to stop it. It's kind of like the vocal fry phenomenon, like we dislike it because women do it. It's a lady things, a lady thinks. So I think of men were crying all

over the office, it would be more acceptable. Well, I think it is more acceptable when people get emotional in an angry way. We hear a lot of stories about passionate men in offices who punch walls because they care about their jobs so much. And those people aren't viewed this week, but they've also let their emotions get the better of them. It's true. As long as it's seen as passion, you're good and look, crying is going to happen.

If we've established anything, I hope it's that all different kinds of people cry for all different kinds of reasons, so when it does happen to you, it doesn't have to be this thing that ruins your whole job or even your day. I think that is a great segway to have pick takes half Fake Takes. So for this week's half Big Takes, we thought we would do a cry Babies version of half Big Takes song cry Babies, they ask people for cultural touchstones that trigger their tears,

and I've thought a lot about this. Yeah, let's hear what's your what's your cry trigger? So one of my favorite movies of all time is the classic movie A League of their Own, which we did referenced crying in baseball. Is that the moment where you know? So in the movie, it's set in World War two and someone is coming to tell one of the women baseball players that their husband died, and you think that the main character, Gina Davis, is about to find out that her husband died, and

it's very suspenseful. But then you find out that Betty Spaghetti's husband died, and you're supposed to be relieved, but you're like, you're not relieved because Betty Spaghetti's husband died. So you just spoiled a league of their own seen it yet, well, if you haven't seen it yet, Betty and plot point, But no, it's a surprise factory. It's what sus and Sarah we're talking about, right, It's that loss.

It's a loss, and like I think they check your mind side, They check you because they're like, oh, you're relieved, psych No, of course you're not, because Buddy Spaghetti is just out of the woods. Yeah, but then here you go down another crying. Yeah, it makes me cry every time. I love that movie. Anyway, what about you, Well, for me, the challenge is not coming up with something that makes me cry. It's narrowing in town because it's so easy for me to well up at like TV commercials and

songs and movies and pretty much anything. But I thought it was interesting that Susan or Sarah I can't remember, said that people generally don't talk about country music, because I could immediately think of like a half dozen country music songs that do make me cry. One of them is a beautiful Dolly Parton song that you wrote with Porter Wagner called Lonely Coming Down. I'd happily sing it for you. I don't think that's what our audience is

really here for, so we want it. It's just about it's about her wait, oh my god, the song is about crying. It's about her waking up. She wakes up in the morning, Um looks over at the you know, the empty side of the bed. Her lover has gone, and she tries to hold back the tears, and then she just feels the lonely dripping down her face. Those are the lyrics. Then I feel the lonely dripping down my face. I mean, come on, are you crying? I'm like ready to cry. You can't see it, but Francesca

is just salt tears. Salt tears. Yeah, that's gross. All right. Well, that was a really fun edition of half Big Takes, Half Baked Takes. Thanks for listening to another episode of game Plan. You can find me on Twitter. I'm at rs Greenfield and I'm at Francesca Today. You can tweet your half bag take or anything else you like to add game Plan, or if you prefer, you can give us a call and leave us a voicemail at two

and two six seven zero one six six. If you like the show, please go to iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts, subscribe, leave us a review at We love Reviews. We can't say it enough. The show was produced by Liz Smith and Magnus Hendrickson. The Head of podcast is Alec McCabe and we will see you next week him. There's no crying in baseball. There's no crying in baseball or workball for any balls, any balls,