Is Working From Home Too Good to Be True?

whatever you want to call it. The phenomenon of being at work without being actually at work, the thing where you send everyone an email with the subject line w f H. Yes, there's a fun jargon. Love it. Working from home is on the rise. The Society of Human Resource Management does an annual survey and they found that sixty of employers allow some population of their employees to work remotely at least some of the time. And that's up from which is just like a huge jump and

like a change in the way we work. Yeah, we talk about the knowledge economy, or like these jobs where the tools that you need to do your job are not necessarily located in one specific physical place. Basically, if you have a computer with word processing software, you can get it done from everywhere, and this is one of those phenomena that is actually technology enabled. It has changed

over time significantly. There was definitely a point in history where nobody worked from home because the typewriters were at the office building. You had to go there to get to them. Yeah, we remember this. Yeah, the rotary phone from the typewriters, they were all the rage. But yeah, now because of things like Slack, which is a chat platform or whatever your office uses, you can be in constant communication. A lot of the meetings are happening in

places like that. Anyway, you can do a lot of your job using software that you can load up on any computer, like WiFi is better than it used to be. Just little things like that make it really similar to being inside the office. And yet we see companies like IBM, which happened to be a pioneer of remote work. They've been doing this for fifteen years. They are now saying no, no more, and they're telling employees they have to either come back to one of their offices or find a

new job, which is very aggressive. Yeah, as with anything, there are going to be downsides to working from home, right, and once the pendulum swung really far in the direction of anybody can work from anywhere. We started seeing a lot of reasons why it actually wasn't that great to not be around your colleagues. Yeah, IBM is doing this in the midst of a bit of a crisis. They've

seen twenty consecutive quarters of falling revenue. When Yahoo was struggling financially, they made a similar move, And I think it's because they do see some benefits to workers being in the same place and the work being better than when you're kind of siloed in your home office or coworking space. It almost sounds like the angry parent, like calling everybody out of their bedrooms into the living room for a family talk. You can't be on your own anymore.

But I definitely experienced that thing where you're emailing back and forth with somebody and it gets too complicated to try and communicate whatever you got to communicate, and you just have to get up and walk over to their desk. Little interactions like that get lost when you're working from home. Yeah, or some meetings that happen in person do have some sort of magic to them that you can't recreate over video conference. Video conference just has this like wizard of

oz feel when you're talking on the speaker phone. Yeah, when you're doing a video conference, everybody's faces in a little box, or you're talking to a bunch of people in a conference room while you're at your home office trying to make it look legit, and it feels like everything you say has to be video conference worthy, and so everything you say has this weight to it, Whereas if you're having an informal conversation in the office, you can discover a lot of little things that wouldn't come

up normally because of the formal atmosphere of a meeting. So I get why IBM thinks there are benefits to having people in the office. I do think it's extreme to say that nobody can ever do it. Ever, it is really really nice to have the option to work from home sometimes, and flexibility and where you work is something that is really helpful, especially for working women in particular.

There have been researchers who argue that flexibility and working from home can actually close the pay gap because a lot of the payout comes from working parents and working moms specifically, And if you can work from home a day or two a week, or leave the office early and signed back on later, then you don't have to kind of disrupt your entire work life to deal with your child care. Yeah, we and we see this in the office. It tends to happen kind of informally, you know.

I get emails all the time from people who have to leave for two hours for a doctor's appointment, or have to go to their kids student teacher conference and then are going to spend the rest of their day working from home in the after. And there's so many offices like this where even if it isn't formalized, everybody kind of understands that to make life work, you have to be a little flexible about where you're doing your

work from. That's right. People are finding ways to use remote work to be flexible, even if it's not formally part of the policy of the workplace. And that's something our guests wrote about in a column for The Wall Street Journal. He argues that remote work isn't going anywhere, and companies can ignore it at their peril. Our guest today is Christopher MEM's. He's a technology columnist at The Wall Street Journal, and he has also worked remotely for

a decade of his career. Thanks for coming on thanks for having me. So when we're seeing a giant like IBM pull away from remote work, you're arguing that the rise of working from home is inevitable. Why is that? Oh? So many reasons. The first thing to know is just that it is continuing to expand. So if you look at numbers from the Bureau of Labor Statistics or Gallop tracks this, they ask questions related to this periodically. It's

going up every year. We're in the range I think now for folks who have ever worked remotely in the past year according to Gallup. And I think that the main reason that it's expanding is that everybody likes it a lot. It increases employee satisfaction. I think it also just reflects the fact that a lot of us, you know, if we're knowledge workers, especially if we're professionals, were kind of on the clock all the time anyway, So remote work is just an extension of all of us having

to check email on nights and weekends anyway. Plus, some companies do it very deliberately, not just for the lifestyle reasons, but also because they figure they can save themselves money on offices and office space. And some companies do it because of the talent crunch. So imagine you're trying to hire coders, you know, what are the odds that you can find all of them within you know, driving distance

of your Chicago headquarters or wherever you are. So there's tons of job functions like that where there's a mismatch between how many people are available to do a job and the demand for that job, and getting people to work remotely is a great way to solve that because your talent pool becomes the whole world at that point. So that helps explain the rising trend of working from home. Why are companies like IBM getting sort of skittish about it? Like,

what are some of the drawbacks of remote work? So in my conversations with IBM, they said that there are certain roles that just don't lend themselves to remote work, and others have said this too, although startups that are committed to remote work disagree. So both IBM and Dell, which is another company that's big on remote work, has said that roles like research and development don't work remotely.

You need people in the same office. I mean that kind of makes sense if you're doing some really hardcore thing. Imagine doing like scientific research or something. You've all kind of got to be in the same place at the same time. There's probably equipment there that you just can't use on your laptop. So in those kinds of roles, remote work just might not be appropriate. In your piece, you talk about a completely remote office, or you mentioned

startups that are committed to being remote. Is that really tenable? Is that the future of where we're going with remote work, everybody just not being in an office at all. So one of the things that's interesting about these all remote startups is that I think that most of them started their remote work programs first and sort of then figured out, you know, how are we going to make this work? Like they basically came at it with the idea that this is how we want to live and this is

the kind of company we want to build. So a great example is base Camp. They were kind of slacked before slack existed, and they're a small company in Chicago. You know, they're spread across I don't know how many times zones similarly automatic, which makes WordPress dot com. That's a company with more than five and fifty workers and

they're definitely making it work. But that is a just an incredibly strong commitment from them, So they use slack to communicate, they use these internal blogs to communicate asynchronously, as they call it. And they have to hire people who will fit into that culture, who can communicate in those mediums, and who are comfortable working remotely and communicating in that way. So there are companies for which, you know, they take the extreme stance like we're going to be

totally remote, but that is the exception. Most companies, even the ones that are all in on this, are kind of hybrid. And there's a bunch of other examples to that are hybrid besides Dell and IBM, like you know their insurance companies that do that. Bank of America has a pretty big commitment to it. Um There's actually this whole list from a company called flex Jobs, and every year they rate the top one companies for remote work. There's a bunch of surprises on there. It's like the

Department of Commerce and you know, various healthcare companies. So there are a few companies where everyone works remotely, and then there are companies where no one's allowed to work remotely. But I think in most cases it's a little bit of a mix. Is that hybrid office A really hard balance to strike. Based on my own experience, that's a

really hard balance to strike. And you know, I talked to Jason Freed, who is the CEO of base Camp, which you know he's he's thought a lot about this, Like he actually gives workshops every month to teach other companies how to um run their company remotely. And his feeling is that whatever the majority of your employees are either remote or you know, in an office together, that's going to be the dominant culture at your company. And so if the majority of your employees are in an office,

that's going to be how people communicate. That's where all the meetings and brainstorms happen, and they don't feel of an obligation to include the remote workers, and they get shut out of decisions and all kinds of important other stuff. I think that it's probably possible for companies to be inclusive of remote workers, even if the majority of their workers aren't remote, but it just takes a real commitment.

I think everyone has to be super conscious of the fact that, you know, if you hold a meeting and you know, we've all been in this position. You know, there's a dozen people in the room and there's the two people who call in on the phone or maybe even you know, over Skype or Google hang out. But those people are missing out on like of what's happening in that meeting, and you know, nine of the value

of that meeting. So unless people are really forced to communicate through these online tools, whether they're in the office or remote, then the remote workers are going to be left out. Yeah, that seems to be why IBM is moving away from their remote work policy. It's just not the way they think that they can get the most out of their workers. But as you mentioned, people like it, and I imagine IBM worker is our used to it. So what can offices do to make working from home

more realistic for more workers? So to make working from home more realistic for more workers, offices need to have the right processes in place for people who are working remotely wherever they're working from, whether it's home or a client's office or you know, a Starbucks or the field

or whatever it is. And so you know, you can't have your weekly all hands meeting at the office and expect remote workers to be bought into that, Like it's got to happen over your video conferencing system or you know,

some companies will just get rid of meetings altogether. They see that as a side benefit of having people work remotely, and they'll make those kinds of decisions through these asynchronous communications systems, which are like internal blogs or you know, some kind of internet or some kind of system that isn't just slack basically, so that there's some persistence and and everybody can catch up and see what's going on and weigh in. What if companies told you about how

they save costs. I know that in theory, you're saving costs on overhead if people aren't you know, coming in and using equipment. But then you described automatic office as being this great, big, beautiful space that nobody was using. So what are you hearing about how how companies are making decisions around saving and helping people work in a way that fits them. So one thing that's been big for a while is this whole idea of getting employees

to hot desk. And you know, imagine that you're paying a ton of money for you know, prime real estate in downtown Manhattan and you want to just use less

of that. So one thing you can do is get employees to give up on the idea that they have their particular desk, and if you know that people are only going to be around three days of the week, you know, I have people rotate through whatever existing space you have, So it's it's simply a matter of saving on real estate on the square footage that you're paying for. Is there anything lost by giving up your own customized space that's just yours at work? I think there probably is.

You know, humans are were creatures of habit and we

can be territorial. And there are horror stories from when hot hot desking was first invented about like there was a particular ad agency where they did it and they got rid of all the cubicles and they're like, everyone's just gonna work around these tables, and people began to kind of like partition them with their junk or their books or whatever and and kind of like wall them off, and there were like these little battles about Like well, that's where I usually said, I think all those are

are growing pains. But it does raise the point that that if you couldn't go all in on remote or some kind of hybrid model, there's a lot of moving parts. It's not just like oh, now we're all using you know, Zoom or some other video conferencing system like now, it's like the whole geography of your office is different as well,

and and Dell has been dealing with that. So Dell has more than a hundred thousand employees, and as they've gotten more and more of them to work remotely, they've been reconfiguring their office space and get getting rid of traditional desks and cubicles. And to me, it seems there is some benefit to being with people sometimes. I know that I like some of our in person meetings that

we have here. Um, and you've been working remotely for most of your professional life, what are your personal experiences, both positive and negative. Yeah, I think that it is a mistake to imagine that that human psychology is compatible with just ruining everybody on their own little island. Even the companies that are pure remote work will get everybody together at least a couple of times a year, and then people will sometimes travel more often for other types

of meetings. Personally, you know, I have tried every possible configuration of remote and hybrid work, and I found that I absolutely need a place that I can go that's just like okay, if I if I just need to work, and I need to you know, get things done, and I and I have a space that's completely devoted to that. I have to have that, and I also have to be able to go to a place where it's not just you know, me staring at four walls, and that I think just shows kind of the complexities of this.

Like a lot of people who work remotely will still sometimes go to an office even if it's not with their coworkers, and they're going to coworking spaces or they

may cowork with some subset of their coworkers. And I think this is one of the reasons that you're seeing this rise of like all these coworking spaces and we work, you know, there's even these things that are like there are startups that where you can, you know, rent a conference room for an hour, or or rent a conference room that has a couch that you can lie down on and can nap in for an hour because you're

traveling to client meetings or whatever. So with that flexibility come the need to flexibly be in the presence of others. And and so for me, what that looks like is, yeah, there's plenty of time that I'm just working on my own because that's the nature of being uh, you know, a writer and doing lots of phone interviews, which is mostly what I do. But you know, I also have a coworking space where I work alongside people who are doing things that are completely unrelated to what I do.

But that's really helpful for me psychologically and keeps me focused. Yeah, I've definitely heard of companies where they will pay for their workers coworking spaces when they're remote workers. Um, well, thank you so much for coming on and talking to us about remote work. Yeah, thanks for having me. Chris gets at one problem that remote work doesn't really solve, which is that people still seem to want a space

that feels like a workspace. They want it personalized. Even when Chris works from home, he finds a way to be around other people and be in a spot that feels like a real workspace. All that stuff says to me that there are a lot of things about the traditional office that we don't necessarily want to lose, like for people to do their work well, it's nice to

have those things. I think that Chris's situation shows that you can have some elements of the office that people like, like being around other humans without necessarily going as far as IBM did and calling everyone back to the physical headquarters, Like there is a more progressive way to get some of the things that IBM wants while still having some

of the flexibility. Like I do fall on the same end of the spectrum as IBM, where I do think there are bottom line benefits to being in the same office as your coworkers, and I like being around people. Then again, there is something really nice about just having the option of working from home sometimes when something comes up or if you need to travel for some reason. I know those are not like the most important reasons to need to work from home, but just having it

there is like an employee park. Yeah, I feel exactly the same way. And I also think that Chris and his article mentioned that there are certain types of jobs that lend themselves to working from home and are working remotely, and some that don't. And I feel like there are certain aspects of my job that work for working from

home and some that don't. There are most days I feel the same way as you, like I kind of need to be around my colleagues in order to collaborate and quickly ask someone a question without thinking about it too much and overhear what's going on so that I have a sense of, you know, the stories that are being published the next day. But then there's some days where I have to dig into a really big project

and eliminating distraction is my main goal. And for that I could be at my kitchen table, hunched over a laptop, you know, with some headphones in. So to me, having the option is really important. Yeah, and I think that's a big thing for workers. They like to feel like they can make adult choices that are good for them and the things that they need to do. Yeah, sometimes you gotta go to the bank exactly. Listeners, what do you guys think about working from home? How does it

work for your life and your job? Let us know you can tweet at us or leave us a voicemail at two and two six on seven zero one six six. And now it's time for half big Takes, Happy fake takes. Francesca, what is your super strong opinion that you would like to share with the world today. I have a very

on topic half big take. It's about working remotely. I have a little strategy that makes my home into an office because I don't have a personal home office me either in New York City, right, Yeah, you may be surprised to learn I don't live in a sprawling mansion. Um so if I work from home, I'm like sitting at the kitchen table. I work on a laptop that has a little track pad. Um, My workspace is very contained. In order to make working from home fuel legit, I

use a mouse only when I'm working from home. So if I'm on my laptop for some other reason at home, I just use the track pad. But the mouse it triggers some Pavlovian thing that gets me into like office mode. I totally get that. The reason I don't like the mouse is exactly the reason you use it, which is like, oh, but how do you use that on the couch? Which is yeah, that's actually I was thinking it was like some deep psychological thing, but it's actually that's probably all

it is that forces you to sit at the table. No, yeah, I mean the only time I use the mouse is at work. I think the Pavlovian thing is real. Becca, what is your somewhat fleshed out but not worthy of an article thought. This is a very strong belief I have, but I couldn't really say why so, I think it's a pretty good half picktke um. It's that when drinking drinks, and I'm a group I'm a strong believer in saying

cheers before you drink. I think the reason I like it is that you have to wait for everybody to have a drink, and it's just kind of like pressing play on the night. Is it the clinking that's important or is it the word cheers? I think it's either or just kind of the action of like and now we're beginning and like we're doing this together. Really, I just really it's hard for me not to do it.

It irritates me. And when it doesn't happen. Yeah, are you one of those people that scoolds people when they don't do it or when they don't look people in there? I don't care about that. I thing I know that I'm not. I mean, no, I get it completely. I I'm I'm very into ceremony and rituals and I'm also a firm believer in the don't start eating until everybody has their food. And it really interesting thing. Yeah, I think maybe it's because it's just manners. We just have manners,

have manners. We have good manners here at game Plan and this has been Happy Takes, Halake Takes. Thanks for listening to another episode of game Plan. You can find me on Twitter at rs Greenfield and I'm at Francesco today. You can tweet us with your happy takes or anything else that's on your mind. You can also call and leave us a voicemail at two one to six one seven zero one six. If you like the show, head on over to Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen and

rate and review. We love hearing from you and it helps people discover our show. And if you get lonely and miss hearing from us during the week, you can sign up for our newsletter and get a little extra Becca and Francesca insight in your life. Just go to bloomberg dot com slash Newsletters. This show was produced by Liz Smith and Magnus Hendrickson. The head of podcast is Alec McCabe and we'll see you next week. We will oh True Cheers is for one place only. Should I say that? A bar in Boston