How to Talk About Trump (And Other Tough Topics) at Work

thinking about this was politics. Um, these days, with so much news and u divisive president, it seems like people cannot stop talking about politics in the office. Yeah. It's it's pretty undeniable that politics or even talking about how to talk about politics is just like it's in the air right now. You had a story on this shortly after the election. Yeah, I wrote a story about how employees that companies are asking their bosses to be more political or getting mad at their bosses for being too

political in the wrong ways. So companies like can't win really if they make any comment or make no comment on what President Donald Trump is doing, and employees are quitting or petitioning or organizing against their bosses, which is something that is unprecedented. Yeah, your story was interesting to me because it's we often hear about like whether it's okay to talk about politics at work or whether your

individual views have any place in the office. But this was employees going one step further and saying, not only do I want to talk about it at work, but I want my boss to have a stand on this. Yeah. And then the bosses were kind of struggling to figure out the right place to land in the way they never really had to think about it before. Yeah, nobody knows exactly how to handle this stuff. I think that's part of the problem. It's coming up more, but there

are no really rules for it. And another story that our colleague Dinashenka wrote exemplifies that she she reported on a study that showed that people were talking more about politics at work, and some of them, we're getting really anxious about it, like all this politics talk was just driving them a little bit crazy. And then others felt good about it. They felt like talking about politics with their colleagues gave them common ground and made them feel

closer to the people that they worked with. So it's like no one can agree on whether this is okay or not or how we should do it, and the anxious people are still doing it. It sounds like from the studies there's an element of like not being able to look away. Yeah. Another thing that comes up more in the office, whether we like it or not, is just our personal lives. I feel like, even if you aren't a big oversharer, social media is going to do

the work of oversharing for you. And you don't know if you're supposed to what you're supposed to tell your coworkers and not, and what they kind of already know from your Facebook life anyway, or your Instagram life anyway. And it's just like this, I don't want to do it personally, but it just happens. Keeping your colleagues out of your expression of yourself in various social media platforms is it feels to me like a losing battle that

I have just given up on. There was a time when I was like, I will never be friends on Facebook with anybody I work with, and that's just not practical anymore. It's also kind of it's naughty, but that means that like, even if I'm not putting really intensely personal stuff on Facebook, which I might want to occasionally, but even if I'm not doing that, like just liking somebody else's post or I don't know if my relationship status changed, Like little things you might not think about

are going to be common knowledge in your office. And then as you wonder what you're supposed to say to the person at work if you know that they're going through this personal thing and you definitely liked their post or even commented on it, but you come to the office and it's like, well, are we gonna talk about your I don't know, family issues. Yeah, people could have

illnesses and their families. People could have breakups, and there's this underlying sort of assumption that everybody knows about it without without really getting into it. And some people think we should be talking about these things just because I'm uncomfortable with it. But for example, Cheryl Sandberg, the CEO of Facebook, that is her whole brand, is sharing her personal life not like with her coworkers and through her platform that she's trying to sell. And when her husband died,

she was very vocal on Facebook. Um and that's the thing that she's trying to sell. And there are a lot of companies that think that people should bring their whole selves to work, but it's uncomfortable to talk about your whole self at work. Yeah. I wonder how that works in practice at the Facebook offices, Like do you think that they really are bigger into sharing in a personal way. I'm sure they're in their heads about it

if they're anything like me. And there's one issue that comes to mind that is is kind of the ultimate combination of what's personal and what's political, and it's just really difficult to talk about it work. And that's race. And even though we understand the importance of talking about this, we're not even sure exactly how to go about it. Like, I can't say that you and I feel really comfortable talking about race in the office as a day to

day thing. Yeah. Very many people that's the reality of their lives, and you and I have the privilege of not thinking about it um when we get to work. That being said, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't talk about it. Like a lot of these things, maybe we should have a vocabulary and office etiquette about talking about it. Yeah, So we reached out to somebody who's literally writing the book on this. Idioma Olio is a writer speaker and

editor at large at the Establishment. She's writing a book called So You Want to Talk About Race, which will be out in January, and we're happy to have her here. I do thanks for having me. So let's just start with a big question. Should people talk about race at work? Yes? I mean I think it's it's not even a question because people are talking about race at work. So I think a good question to ask is should we be

intentionally talking about race at work? And yes, we definitely should because right now we talk about race at work in many ways, and some of them are more open than others, and some are silent. But we're already talking about it, and I think the question is whether or not we should be more careful and intentional in the way in which we do that. I want to get out more what you mean by we're already talking about it?

Can you give some specific examples? I mean, some things come to mind for me, but I want to know what you're thinking of. Yeah, we already talked about race at work. By you know, it's the way in which we decide things like our dress code, what we declined as professional unprofessional behavior here um, the way in which we set up our hiring practices, who gets promote it, who doesn't get promoted, who gets a manager's meaning, and who isn't you know what sort of rules we put

down in our HR manuals. We talked about race all of the time, and sometimes we talk about it by the lack of saying it when we say that we are talking about all of our employees, but we're discussing things that primarily impact only white employees. We're talking about right, you know, when we use cold language to define professionalism, to mirror, you know, the way in which white men find themselves in the office, we're talking about race. So we really are talking about it all of the time.

We're just we just like to pretend that we're not. So how do we become more intentional? As you say in talking about it? You know, the primary advice I like to give people, especially in our environments, because this is an area where you know, the impetus really does lie with those in power, is to say who isn't in the room? So every discussion that you have at work, if you're looking around and the majority of the people in the room are the only people in the room

are people who look just like you. Um, you need to realize that you are injecting at one sided racial viewpoint into everything you're discussing, even if you don't think it has anything to do with race, and you need to start asking who else should be in here? So I would say, you know, that's something to start investigating. Looking around you know, your work, You'll be shocked to realize who you work for. You know who gets praised and why, who gets promoted, you know who's coming up

with these company policies all these things. If you ask who's not in this room? I think that's a really good start, because you're you're not going to know what you don't know. And the first things first is you have to get the voices that are typically heard a space to safely speak. Hearing that as somebody who's not particularly high up in the hierarchy. How could I do

that realistically? You know? Definitely, One thing I would look at are things like, you know, even if you just you know, feel like, oh, I'm just a team member. You know, I'm not I'm not a supervisor, I'm not a boss. Is to look at, you know, if you're in a group situation and a person of color is trying to talk to make sure that space is being given for them. You have the privilege of being heard, right,

and that's a great a great place to make space. Also, just you know, to know that you have the safety to speak up. And the most it's going to do is make things that you look at awkward. But for a person of color, speaking up can get them fire. Um, So really keep your eyes open and say, you know

what am I missing here? And so when you talk about things like company policy, I remember when I used to work, you know and keep a cool land and we would you know, talk about things like you know, um, child care policies, occasionally time off, you know, we would talk about what sort of social events we were going to do, and it always struck me how you know, it was really what it feels to the majority, and the majority was always going to be like But that

meant that any employees of color always really left out of that discussion. And if any even white teammates had just said, hey, what do you think, um, it would have given more weight to anything that I or anyone like me had to say, because otherwise people of color are just viewed as you know, always being negative or being these slayers and What they really need is support, and they need people to realize that if you're only hearing from people like you, you're not hearing the whole story.

One thing that I have noticed when I'm in environments where I'm trying to to speak up for let's say, issues of women are issues of people of color, is that I feel this obligation to try and do it in an unemotional way because I don't want my own point to be discredited by sounding emotional about it. But and I feel like that's a taboo that makes it harder for people to talk about these things in the office.

Is there a way we should be talking about these things at work or should we just not be even worrying about whether we sound emotionally connected to an issue when we talk about it. You know, that fallacy, I feel is so misleading, and it kind of you know, that infects all of the ways in which we discuss issues like race and gender so often, even you know, as a writer, I will hear people say you're obviously

emotionally invested. But the truth is is what type of person would you have to be to not be emotionally is that you know these are That's the human nature. And if you think you're not emotionally invested, um, that's kind of betraying your own bias as law in order to be so far removed that issues that impact you know, the lives and the humanity of people different from you don't affect you emotionally. Um, what type of teammate and

co worker are you? Really? So I wouldn't be afraid of being emotional, But one thing I would definitely say if you, if you're worried about how effectively these things will be heard, is to talk about why it's emotional. A lot of times we stop at the feeling, right, We're like this, I feel awful, this is you know, this is disenfranchising, this is silencing, This makes me angry, This makes me sad, and it does. But what people need to understand if they're not sitting in those emotions

with you, is why. And I think that there's a great opportunity, UM in these conversations. And this is why I always recommend you know, none of us are born with the language to describe oppression and systems of race in the way in which it impacts us. That language is empowering, and because it's empowering, it's kept from us. And it's really important to understand if you're going to work and you're feeling beaten down, or if you're feeling like something is wrong. If you see an interaction and

they're like, that didn't seem right. You know what what they did to that to my teammates, I didn't seem right.

It's important then to sit with that and trying to figure out why, because then when you talk about it, and when you say, you know, watching the way that you talk to so and so really angered me, you can say because talking to a black man in the office in this way reinforces stereotypes about black men that keeps them unemployed, that keeps them looking at lower pay, that keeps them, you know, more likely to be fired, to be disciplined, to even find themselves in the criminal

justice system. And that is something to be angry about, but you have to really tie it to the larger issue for people who aren't making that connection automatically, and then you know that anger makes sense. It doesn't mean that you have to always consent everyone, especially if you are a person of color. You really don't owe someone this exhaust is investigation into your heart and soul because

people should be taking this upon themselves. But especially if you are, let's say, an ally trying to have these kind versations UM, it will make it more effective if you can really tie to the downstream impacts of these actions. We're talking about these things not just because it makes people of color feel more welcome in the oppose. We talk about these issues because it has real measurable impacts on the ability of people's color to be able to

pay their bills and support their families. And that matters. And that is something you know that you should be upset about and concerned about and sad about and angry about UM. But if you express it and people don't know why, it's easy for them to dismiss. So it sounds like you think that we shouldn't try away from our emotions. But are there things that we should avoid

when talking about issues of race that work? You know, I would definitely say I would avoid jumping into discussions about race if you can't first be able to a set kind of your intentions in the discussion. I think a lot of times we find ourselves in these kind of confrontational areas and our emotions are high, and it's it's really public, and you know, things really start boiling.

But we didn't set out what our intention was, and I think that it is almost never going to go well if you jump into these discussions without first thing, I'm talking to you about this, or I'm going to make this an issue because I want you to understand, you know, why this impacts me, or I want to make sure that we are creating an environment that is welcoming and supportive of employees of color, but definitely set that out first um and get people to buy in

on that, because what often happens in these discussions is people will say, well, this isn't what we're talking about anyway, So this isn't what we're doing. I think it's very clear that that's why you're having this discussion, that people can commit to that goal on it. It gets people in these conversations in a different mindset, you know, from

less of a why are you're taking this here too? Oh, okay, you are taking this conversation here, and now I have to decide if I'm the type of person who says I don't want to talk about how I can make this work environment more inclusive, or from the type of persons who does want to talk about that, and it changes the mindset of everyone in the conversation. So we would definitely say, don't get into these conversations, don't get heavy into them without setting that out first and kind

of get that mutual buy in. So we've been talking a lot about dealing with racism at work and how you talk about that and as a working person, But I'm wondering how you think we should talk about race when there's say a police shooting or a racially motivated crime, or some sort of news story where it is affecting people at work and they want to talk about it, but they're they're not sure how they should. What do

you think people should do in that situation? You know, this sort of thing can always be a little difficult, but I would definitely say, especially in situations like this, it's important to recognize but it when something like this happens, you have grieving, scared, heartbroken coworker, and your tought priority should be the health and safety of your teammates of color and really reaching out to them and offering support and making sure that you are creating an environment that

sees them. You know, one of I'll never forget. One of the most you know, mentally damaging things for me around the time of trade Horn Martin was I was actually working in advertising at the time, is that no one was talking about it. And I would go to work, which is where I spend most of my time, and people would talk about any other big issue, you know, would talk about celebrity depths. I would talk about tone

x oversee. I talked to all of these things, and it was like the murder of this boy that I had spent days crying over and looking at my own son and whondering if it could be him. It didn't exist, and it as a co worker, as a community member,

I felt like I did make sense. And regardless of what you personally think about that issue, I don't think it's too much to ask that people recognize that when you see the death of one of your own um and such an unjust death, it's going to be traumatizing and you should care about your teammates and your co workers enough to acknowledge that, and I would. You can't acknowledge that. You can acknowledge no matter what you think

of police brutality. You can say, I am really sorry that someone is dead and it shouldn't be like this, And I'm sorry that this is hurting my teammates and my coworkers, and it hurts me because it hurts them, and that that empathy, you know, that recognition of the humanity of people of color and the experiences that they have in the world is really important and it's something that you get in the office all of the time for any other tragedy except for what it has to

do with race. So do that. That is the least you can do. And then if you want to have further conversations, um, you know, I would, I would definitely say that it's important to do. So don't bring it to choose the people of color, don't you know. Don't show up at the desk of a black person the day after you see video of a black person being shot by cops and say, oh, my gosh, isn't that awful? It's you know, and so upset because they're already upset. Just say, you know, are you okay? How can I

s import you fall advice? Because I wouldn't no to not say exactly what you just said. Yeah, I mean, it's really one of those things where you know you're you're greeting you're suffering, and the least thing you want to do at the time then is kind of hand holding one else who isn't correctly impacted by it through

that process. And you know, plenty of people are just trying to go to work and not break down crying at work, and so, you know, being known, yes we see you, we hope you're okay, and we hope we can support you in any way that is a loving opening gesture, But burdening people with your processing of their pain is not. So I just want to wrap up by asking, can you leave us with some other assumptions that people make that they need to get rid of

before we can have more productive conversations at work about race? Yeah? You know, I would say, if there's one thing I would love for people to keep in mind, especially white people, to keep in mind, is that when you were talking to some one about a specific issue on race, something that happened. Let's say someone says, so and so you know said this to me, and I think they said

it to me because I'm Hispanic, right. Um, when we're talking about issues of race or ethnicity with people of color, you're not talking about just one issue and so if you look at it and go, oh, I wouldn't think that what you're doing is you're ignoring the fact that this isn't the first time this has happened, and that these issues you cannot divorce one instance from a lifetime of similar instances. And so often when we talk at work, people like to say that people of color are blowing

things out of proportion, but they're not. What they're doing is they're able to see a lifetime of this experience. What you're seeing is not just that specific issue. You're also seeing what is another rock on the pile that is crushing up, and you need to give it that full of gravity and weight and recognize how much larger that impact is that it seems to you because you

don't have to experience that every single day. Well as with everything, it sounds like taking a little bit of effort to think outside one's own experience really has a huge effect, and there's something we should all be doing more of. I really appreciate you taking the time to

talk to us. Thanks for having me. The thing that stuck with me from that interview was when she was talking about the ways in which when you bring up this stuff, it can be unproductive, and she talked about how at times it can feel like someone else putting their issues on you, and that I think is my issue with a lot of these conversations when they happen at work, Like it stresses me out to hear people talk about politics or even their personal lives, because I

feel like I'm supposed to be acting as their therapist, and I don't want to do that at all. Yeah, one thing that we didn't get too deeply into in this interview, but which I think is relevant here is what happens when you have a colleague or someone that you're talking to who has really opposite political views from you, or views on race, and in those instances it may be not productive and maybe even damaging to just bring all your issues up and dump them out on the table.

So I kind of feel like what we're learning here is that there are there are tools were talking about this stuff right, and we have filters for a reason. It's not necessarily that we should just like hang on too outdated taboos and not talk about things for the sake of not talking about them. But we also don't need to just completely spill our unexamined views out before we've really thought about how that's going to affect our coworkers and what we're trying to get out of it.

And for a totally unproductive and easy to talk about thing, it's now time for a half baked takes, half fake takes. You can call us and leave a voicemail with your half bake take and we might play it on the show It's too into six one seven zero one six six and take a minute to subscribe to our newsletter if you want to hear from me and Becca throughout the week. This week's newsletter features a playlist of perfect songs to listen to at work, which we pulled together

from your responses to our call out last week. Becca, what is your not fully formed thought that you want a platform for today? Very passionate about this. I think that talking about the weather is totally legit and cool

and not dumb small talk. You know, I'm pro small talk. Basically, I walk outside my apartment and if it's nice out, the first thing that will come out of my mouth is, oh my god, it's such a beautiful day, and I feel like I'm really appreciating the world and that I want to share that with somebody, and then I feel bad because that's like grand pa talk, but it's not.

It's our lives. I can't say small talk. But small talk isn't supposed to be original, Like you don't have to come at somebody with like the most dazzling in site for the first thing you say to them that day, like, let's talk about something that we all agree on that we can all get on the same page about it's rainy outside. Also, weather affects me a lot, so to not talk about it is a big deal for me. When it's sunny out, I'm in a much better mood

when it's cold and miserable. Like it's an important factor in my life. And if you don't want to talk about it with me, then you don't be my friend. Bang frantiska, what is your not fully formed idea that you really need to share with the world. Mine is

also about how you talk to people in the office. Um. I feel like it should be an enforced law that everyone should say good morning to their colleague, to the to the people in their immediate vicinity, like the person sitting immediately next to you or across from you, somebody who you're going to make eye contact with as soon as you walk into the office, say good morning. It's not that hard. If you're an introvert. It's two words like say good morning and then carry on with your work.

There's really there's no obstacle to say good morning and not. When people don't say good morning to me, it makes me feel sad. I want to agree with this, but I am just to be and I just don't say good morning. And I'm not an introvert either, I just don't do it. You don't feel like, well, okay, So here's here's my thing. I think the next best thing to saying good morning every morning is never saying good morning. The worst thing you could do. I think I'm this one,

the worst one. The worst person you can be is someone who sometimes says good morning and sometimes doesn't because you just you were. I never know what to expect from that person. So it's like I might say good morning and get a good morning back, I might not get a good morning back. If I know if I sit next to you and I know you're never going to say good morning, I'm just gonna give up on

it eventually and stuff thinking respond to you. Jeez. Also then so You're not that bad because there are some people who it's like, did they hear me? They probably didn't hear you. That had probably didn't hear me. Can I give an anecdote? I know this, this half big take is going on for a while, but um I met someone from Guatemala who said, the custom there and the culture is everybody gives each other like a hug and a kiss on the cheek when they walk into

the office. Different world hugs or a whole lot of Yeah, save it, We'll save it. No huwgs. Please say good morning to me, Good morning Francesca, Thanks Becca, good morning back and this has been half big takes, half baked takes. Thanks for listening to game Plan. You can find me on Twitter at Francesca today and I'm at rs Greenfield. Tweet us your half big tags or any anything. Just

tweet us anything literally, anything nice. If you like our show, please go to Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen, subscribe, rate, and review as we say it every week because every week, it's true, every review really helps get the word out about our show. You can also check out a cool new product from Bloomberg called Bloomberg Lens. It gives you a bunch of really nifty financial information along with all of your favorite articles. Yeah I heard that that's not

only an iOS app, but also a Google Chrome extension. Yeah, it's pretty great. This podcast is produced by Liz Smith and Magnus Hendrickson. Head of Podcasts is Alec McKay. See you next week. Yeah, come on, you're probably the second soprano. Anyway. It was when I didn't know how to read music that way, so I was like, I don't know