Hard Work Isn’t The Reason For Your Success

it's not real. Oh so, before we get into it, I think we need to define meritocracy, which is this idea that the people who work the hardest and have the most talents will succeed based on their merits. Merit accracy, thanks for the etymology. Yeah, it is super appealing if your company. You can kind of look around at older systems where people got ahead because of who they know or because they went to the right fancy private schools,

and you can say, well, that's clearly unfair. Let me put something into place where everyone is free to submit an idea to upper management and then we'll just look at all those ideas and the best idea will rise to the top, and it has nothing to do with who you are. So it's a really nice way of feeling like you've cleared up all those pesky sort of issues of bias and advantage. Yeah. I think we've worked in places where you look around and you say that

person is where they are because of how they were born. Yeah. There, it's definitely kind of demoralizing whenever you work around other people who you know have only kept their jobs or only risen to their level because you know they had the right allies in the company, or they are just somehow too important to fire, or they you know, long ago got some advantage and they just sort of rode their status to the top, and you're here just trying to make it on the value you of your hard

work and your ideas, or so you think. And then if you work in a meritocracy, you can tell yourself that the reason for your successes was your hard work and that nothing else got you to where you are. So it feels pretty good on a personal level too. Yeah, So that's why the idea looks so good to both management and workers. But I think that that ideas falls

and we're going to get into that more. But I think before we get into it, it's interesting to look back at the history of meritocracy and it started in Silicon Valley, which should not be a surprise because, like i'mlie,

is still very obsessed with this idea. But I found that the founder of Intel, when he was going to start a company, as you mentioned, he was trying to get away from all these old systems that he thought were unfair and he didn't want to tap down hierarchy, so he decided to create his company as a meritocracy that awarded people's ideas and not their status in the company or how many years they've been working at the company. Yeah, and you're right, Silicon Valley is still totally obsessed with

this idea. I think maybe because a lot of the substance of the work feels like tangible things you can measure, like you know, it's computer code. It's it's not emotional, it's not about relationships. We just we take the best code and we make the best programs. And I mean I'm simplifying tech here. Obviously we basically go there. YEA really um, but you can you can say you have some basis on which to say, Look, anybody can start their own app. These days, people start companies with very

little money all the time. So, you know, we've really created a world here in Silicon Valley where um the best ideas succeed, not the you know, most advantaged people. And the heroes of Silicon Valley are people who people point to and say, look that they didn't go to college, or they didn't finish college, or they came from nothing. They're not part of these dynasties, and so their proof that the meritocracy is working. But even when you look

at that idea, that turns out to be false. So one of these years, as this guy Max love Chen, who among other things, he founded yea piece, very very wealthy um and people point to him is saying like, look, he was an immigrant. His parents came here, they had I think the Laura's three dollars in their pocket, and

now their son is the successful entrepreneur. But in an interview he himself said that that is not true and that he did have certain advantages, specifically that his parents really told him that they need that he needed to learn a skill, and they came with educational backgrounds and they told him education was important. And he said without that,

he wouldn't have thought that he could have succeeded. So right there, there's something that on its face looks like somebody rising to the top just because of the value of his work, And actually there's a lot more to it, and it's pretty easy to pick apart that I do more broadly in Silicon Valley, because you can just look around and see, um, it's not a very diverse place.

I think one of the most obvious indicators that this meritocracy idea isn't working in Silicon Valley is that pretty much the same p will rise to the top through a meritocracy as would through a more traditional system, a more traditional hierarchy. And there are plenty of people who

think that's fine. You know, they say, look, if we take away the barriers, or if we seem to be taking away the barriers by just giving everybody the same access, then it shouldn't matter, you know, the race or gender or economic background of the people who tend to make it.

But then there are other ways of looking at it where you say, look, if the only people who can make it are still, you know, people from pretty affluent backgrounds who tend to be white and tend to be male, then you might want to reevaluate how merit based your system really is. Yeah, and slowly some companies and people in Silicon Valley are starting to see that the system

isn't really a level of playing field. We talked to someone who used to believe in meritocracy until he very recently changed his mind, Ryan Carson, as the CEO of Treehouse, a coding school based in Portland, Oregon. He changed companies, practices an entire outlook on education after realizing the system wasn't as fair as he thought. You're now the CEO of your own company. Um, you have eighty employees, You've raised over a twelve million dollars. How did you get

to where you are now? Uh? Well, I grew up in Colorado and I was exposed to computers early. I was privileged in that sense, and I got interested incoding when I was in ninth grade because I was lucky to have a teacher say to me, Hey, Ryan, have you ever heard of this thing when you tell the computer what to do? And I thought, what that sounds amazing and as she said, yeah, it's called programming, and uh we had a class at my school. Um, so

I took it and fell in love. And then went on to study computer science at Clorida State and graduated in the year two thousand and Um. I decided that I wanted some adventure in my life. So I moved to England and didn't know a soul, which was exciting, and I got a job as a developer. And then that's when this realization kind of struck me that my my degree didn't relate to what I was doing in my job, and that bothered me. And so fast forward seven years later, I actually started a company to to

solve that problem. So got involved in this idea of hey, let's empower people by teaching them technology and all this was founded upon this idea that tech as a meritocracy. Yeah, at what point did you realize the tech world wasn't a meritocracy. It was about a year ago. And so, um, you know, I'm a white male, I'm straight, I'm tall, I'm kind of you know, I'm educated. I grew up in a middle to high income family. I just have so much privilege. And I didn't really see that truly.

You know, I thought, hey, you know, I'm lucky. Some things have gone my way. Um, but on the whole, you know, I've worked hard, I've learned how to code. I've gotten to where I am because I kind of pulled myself up by my bootstraps. And what I realized is that, um, that is just not true. I have a tremendous amount of chips, you know, stacked in my favor.

And the reason why I found this out is because about a year ago I signed the Diversity Pledge here in Portland and it basically is a group of companies that's that are agreeing to lean in and try to work on the problem of diversity and tech and inclusion. And I entered that that group, you know, thinking, hey, I basically, um, you know, I'm super moral. I I'm definitely not sexist. I'm definitely not racist, and I just want to help um and and I run a school

that teaches technology. It's super affordable, it's online, so you know, all people have to do is is use a school like Treehouse to learn how to code, and then they can pull themselves up by their bootstraps to UM. And then I actually talked to people of color and women in depth to say, why are we having this problem? I really don't get it. Help me understand. And one of the most brutal conversations. I had was with a guy in Boston who said, Ryan, let me put it

like this. He said, you know, you coming into our community as a white guy with a computer science degree. You know, we're all black, and you're telling us, Hey, you can get a job in tech. You know you can learn, you don't need a college degree. Is just like the white preachers who came into the projects and tried to plant churches and told the community that they had something that they needed, you know, they had a solution to their problems. And he said, Ryan, I don't

trust you, like I don't know you. You You don't look like me. Um, you know, why why should I believe you? Um? And why do you think you have something that I need? And that was really humbling, UM, And I think it just opened my eyes to how insane the idea is that, Um, everybody grew up like me and has the the access

and the desire and the role models. You describe this period where you believed in meritocracy and then kind of a turning point that you had where you realized, like, were you having problems that led you to this kind of you know, pivotal conclusion that changed everything yes. So you know, at Treehouse we have eighty thousand students. Um and and I and I might if I believed it was a meritocracy, then we should see a ton of people of color and women coming out of our program.

And we just weren't. Um And so it was kind of a slap in the face that I don't understand, you know why tres is only twenty five bucks a month, Like this seems so affordable. You don't have to go to college, Like why and uh. And it was just I felt, you know, absolutely baffled by it. And uh, in hindsight, it's so obvious to me that it's almost embarrassing. Um. But you know, I'm so glad I see it now. This idea of meritocracy is so ingrained in the technology world.

Have you run up against people who are just disagree with you? Um, yes, all the time. And and uh. I was actually on a big podcast the other day and I don't want to name names, but um, you know, they basically said, I don't get it. You know, are you sure this isn't a meritocracy. Why can't people just work harder and hustle and and teach themselves? And um, I just had to say what I've been saying over and over again. They weren't raised like you. I think

it's mostly white men that believe this. I like myself and I can speak like that because the white guy who grew up, you know, in a basically rich family with a college degree. So I think almost every uh white male that you run into probably believes this, and some of us are beginning to, you know, shake off those shackles and realize it's just not true and we should be a part of the solution. So once you came to realize all this, how did you address it?

What were the solutions that you started to apply to your company. So the first thing that the main message I heard from folks that I was talking to who were people of color or women, was that it didn't work for me to go and speak to the to them as a group and say, hey, there's a job for you. You know, it pays really well, you don't need a college degree. They need to hear that message

from people like them that they trusted. So the first thing we did was we partnered with the Boys and Girls Club and we said, would you be willing to give this good news? Uh two kids in your program that are that are coming out of high school. Um, that there are companies that will hire them if they're willing to put in, you know, six months of effectively night school. UM. And they said, you bet, we would love to do that. And I think there's countless community

based organizations that we could partner with. You know, there's churches, there's black girls who code, there's I mean, name any community based organization that has the trust of women or people of color, and they could do that. And then I did the work of going to employers and saying, Okay, you say that you want to hire diverse folks, are you actually willing to invest in those people? Um? And what I mean by invest are you willing to pay

for their education? Um? Are you willing to mentor them? Are you willing to hire them as apprentices instead of you know, demanding that you hire mid to senior level people. If you're willing to do that, you could be a part of the solution. And it was really actually encouraging how quickly I got yeses. So Nike said yes, Envision, which is a great design tool, said yes. Um. A couple other Portland based companies said yes. A treehouse we're ourselves were saying yes, we're going to hire out of

this program. So once you have employers who are willing to invest and hire apprentices, and that's the key. They need to stop demanding that they can hire you know, mid to senior level people. UM. And then it takes community based organizations to spread the good news and to recruit. And then it takes a you know, a school like Treehouse or another school to be the education piece. Um,

that's affordable. UM. Once you get that going, I were starting to see that this is actually, um, you know, a very primitive beginning UM to the to the answer to this solution. It's not working exactly correctly. You know, we're learning things. Some things aren't going correctly, but so far it's it's exciting and I can't wait to see how this first class does. Yeah, how many people are in the class and how long have you been doing it? And have any of them landed jobs? It's a small

um trial. So it's twelve folks are in the class. Um, they're all Latin X, which is interesting. UM. I think it was just kind of um, the look of the draw. As far as the Boys and Girls Club in Portland and who they were recruiting. UM. They are currently going through the program. They're about two months in UM. And you know, the employers were all really excited, UM. And the class is doing well. This it is not without its challenges. I mean, you know, these folks are some

of the hardest working people I've ever met. UM. But you know, some of these folks are working fifty hours a week plus learning on treehouse and you know they're getting paid you know, bare minimum wage. UM. A lot of them have challenges with their families where UM. You know, for instance, a mother in law has kicked them out of the house because of various issues, and they're trying to make it on their dad's couch. You know, at work,

you know there's significant challenges. UM. But even with that, we're seeing, UM, a lot of hope and a lot of hard work and a lot of excitement. UM. So I'm excited. You know we're gonna learn. It's not gonna work perfectly. And that's exactly the point, Like we can't fix diversity inclusion. And you know, one program in one year, it'll take you years and years of hard work. You mentioned that some of your students have trouble balancing their jobs,

their work week, with with coding school. And I thought it was interesting that you talk about these issues of access. You know, treehouse is affordable, but at the same time it's it's a luxury to be able to devote time to something even at night, if you have of you know, full time job and let's say childcare or family responsibilities. And I wonder if there are other examples of things like that that became apparent to you once your eyes were open to how not level this playing field is, yes,

and big eye openings with what women have to deal with. Um. I think it was just by really listening to folks like Susan Fowler at uber and and then talking to more women and saying is this like common, this totally insane, disgusting behavior, and over and over pep women saying yes, Yeah, of course it is. I've been dealing with stuff my whole life, and and and and being shocked by that, but then over and over hearing it to the point

where I had to believe it. One thing we did at Trios is we anonymized our our job application, so there's no name, there's no there's no indication of age or or race or gender, or anything, And UM, what was brutal is that we actually started hiring more women when we did that. And I know it's and it's sad, isn't it. I mean it's it's like, hey, aren't we

aren't we okay? Here? Aren't we not sexist? But it it proves almost everybody has hidden biases and you have to systematically root them out, UM, and not just say, oh, we think we're okay, because you're probably not. I just

want to ask one last question. And we're talking a lot about getting in the door being hired, and you wrote a post on medium about Leslie Miley, who is UM one of the few black engineers at Twitter to rise up very high in the company, but he ultimately left because he couldn't figure out how to get the company to hire more people like him. So what do you think about that? What are you doing about that? Once you have these people at the companies, how do

you make sure that the company is still inclusive? So you bring up a vital point. It Really what I'm learning is that it's a two pillar solution and you can't just UM fix the talent pipeline. You also have to do massive inclusion training. UM. And so you know, at Treehouse we're getting really aggressive about doing inclusion training, especially for managers. Uh And and what's interesting though is

Google did this and it didn't work. I mean, look at James Demore right, uh, ugly sexist behavior right that was unchecked, unnoticed. Uh and and it wasn't rooted out. So it means that inclusion training isn't enough. And so um, it's a you know, the tough answer is I don't know exactly, you know, systematically how to fix this issue other than the CEO needs to identify it as a problem and fund it um and aggressively work on it

for years. Other as nothing will change. Well, thank you so much for taking the time and talking to us. Ryan said a lot about underrepresented groups and women and people of color and how they're treated differently in the workplace. And I think all of that stuff is really important. But before we go too far down the road of discrimination against certain groups, we should explain that the reason we're talking about that stuff in this specific context isn't

so much just to point out inequality. It's to say that there's all kinds of invisible things that you don't really see that can make the playing field uneven. And that has to do with, you know, the group that you come from and the advantages and the access that you had. Yeah, hearing him tell his story of his upbringing, he pointed out some of these things, but you could even hear some of the other things that helped him

get where he is today. So you know, he not only came from an upper middle class background and happened to go to college, but he said he had a mentor, and he said that his school happened to teach computer science. I think all those little things our advantages that he had that other people didn't. Yeah, it just goes to show how far back you have to go to really be able to see all of the access points and entry points that you get towards you know, what ends

up being a good career. And you know, if you set up a system at the end of it and you say all good ideas are welcome, I think the danger, Like a meritocracy is a good idea, and we should all be working toward something that really feels fair, that has you know, where people are judged on their merit. But I think the danger is in setting up a

system and then leaving it alone. Because you think you've done enough because you've taken away the obvious barriers, because there's so many more settle barriers and they go way, way, way deep into our histories. So it's about creating those systems and then doing lots more to sort of reach back and find those other kind of hidden inequalities and try to level the playing field in other ways. Sounds like a lot of work. Yeah, it's like it's like

Ryan said, companies have to be willing to do it. Yeah, and out of time for half pick takes, happy fake takes, you can call in with your own half baked take at two and two six one seven zero one six six. Francesca, what is your too hot to handle opinion that you need to share? Um, this is nominally about office where I would like to I would like some help understanding, maybe from our male listeners, if you want to weigh in why it seems like a lot of men don't

understand the difference between a skirt and address. They're very distinct items of clothing. I understand that men don't wear them, but it seems to me like the difference is really obvious and it's not like, you know, it's not like being a man and not knowing the difference between like eyeliner and eyeshadow, Like it's not that obscure and they're

super different. Okay, Okay, I think you need to back up and tell us why you think men don't know the difference, because, over the course of my adult life, dozens, maybe more hundreds, nay thousands, Okay, I don't know if I know thousands of men, but plenty of men have said things like nice dress when they met, nice skirt, or the other way around. Yeah, I think it's happened to me now that you're saying it. It has. Yeah, it's happened, it has, so it must be true. It's

it happens a lot. And then, actually, female listeners and you, Rebecca, should try this. Ask a few of the men in your life, challenge them to tell you the difference between a skirt and address, and I bet you will find a few of them don't know. By the way, if anybody doesn't know a skirt only covers the bottom half of your body, it seems obvious to us. But I guess it's just like I'm trying to think of a

male equivalent, like a thing that I thought we don't know. Well, the thing men wear that women don't wear, that is very outward, that is very public that I just feel like you should know as a man, the difference between a skirt and a dres A man as like an adult who's not a child, who knows what clothing means. Also, I describe it as like a skirt as part of a two piece outfit, right, and addresses like one dress as a whole piece of clothing. Yeah, so yeah, he

heard it here first defining dress. Yeah, he's finding a lot of angry listener feedback on this for men who do know the difference. And um, just for the record, are our producer Magnus is a man, and he did correctly identify the difference between a skirt and address. Becca, what's your half big take? So we had a recent long weekend, and my half bag take is that if you stay in town for the long weekend, it feels longer. Amen to that because I was in the city all

three days and it went on forever. Must be nice because I went on a trip And yeah, you basically have to leave leave on the third day, so you don't really get the day. There's all that travel time plus it's just like activity packed, which I think can make things feel shorter. Yeah, I'm right, I'm right, but

but but I just I like going away, so it's hard. Yeah, and it's like I actually came back from a long weekend feeling like usually when people ask how your weekend was, like, the pithy refrain is like, m it was too short, And I was like, this weekend was kind of too long, Like I didn't know. Okay, Okay, I get it. You stayed in town and the greatest weekend. No. I stayed in rainy Brooklyn and found ways to entertain my baby. I was ready to get back to work. Okay, I

just shamed you hating your weekend. And this has been half big takes, ha fake takes. Thanks for listening to another episode of game Plan. You can find me on Twitter at rs Greenfield and I'm at Francesco today. If you have thoughts, have fig takes, or your opinion on scripts versus dresses, you can tweet at us. You can also leave us a voicemail at two and to six seven zero one six. If you want to hear from us more often, and I know you do, you should

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was produced by Liz Smith and Magnus Henrickson. And we'll see you next week good bye. Yeah, fine, I'll do that, but it's annoying. That's just annoying. I have to go downstairs and get a tea bag and go back upstairs and get my tea. Can't you just get hot water? Oh? Got hot water and bring it down. Yes, I can do that, Okay,