Can Boomers and Millennials Get Along?

workplace today. So maybe you're being managed by somebody who's half your age, or maybe you're years old and you find yourself in charge of an entire company, and a lot of these types of things are coming up between the two biggest generations in the workplace now, which are the millennials and the boomers. Oh, millennials were all about them, We talk all about them on those podcasts. Do you feel left out? I'm depending on actually, not by any

by any age range you go by. I am not technically a millennial, although I skirted it by not very much at all. Yeah, I've seen pus nineteen eighty to two thousand, the years year born, and I've heard two. There's a lot of arguing about what really being a millennial means. I think a lot of people don't want to be considered it when they are. Well, I'm so

I don't fall in any of those age ranges. But I'm also on the way young side of being gen X, so I don't super identify with any of that culture either. But as you, as you mentioned to me earlier, Um, we don't get to choose our fate. No, No, you are what you are. You're a millennial and that's that's yeah, although there's you know, there's a pushback against that now for people like me who are who are trapped between two generations. They're calling us um z zennials why like

x ennial between gen X and millennial. And I've also heard um generation catalano a reference to myself called life, which salute defining cultural moment of a certain type of middle class person exactly my age. Well, we don't have to get to granular, but I think a lot of the issues that are coming up in the workplace between these generations aren't really generational but age. I think that's the thing is we millennials get a rep for a lot of things that they are said to be doing

just because they're millennials. Like they want to work in a certain way, and companies have to adapt to that. But a lot of it is just like this is how to thirty five year olds work. Boomers have told me that millennials were coddled and we need a metal and like feedback for every task. Um. Although it's funny because every time I'm on the phone with my dad, he's the one who's always like, did you get feedback? Did you get feedback? And I'm like, who's obsessed with feedback?

The one who coddled you into a demand and straight back, It's true, it's true. And then on the other side, there are people who say older workers are set in their ways and they're less inclined to adapt to new technologies or new ways of working, and that that can be a hindrance on like productivity and getting things done. And on top of that, in certain industries like technology,

they have to face this cult of youngness. There's an article on Bloomberg that talk to these people who are over forty in Silicon Valley and found out all the things that they did to seem younger because otherwise they weren't going to get hired, like getting botox and plastic surgery and dyeing their hair over forty not old. Oh my god. But yeah, and you people wipe their college graduation day from their LinkedIn profile. You hear people talk

about fresh blood. I feel like that's like code for bringing in young people, and it's almost like, yeah, it's one of those like age related dog whistles, almost like if you say fresh blood, you're basically like, I don't want to hire older people. And a trend that's exacerbating this issue is that boomers are working longer than ever before.

A colleague of ours been Steve Verman, wrote an article recently how US seniors are employed at the highest rates that they've been in fifty five years, and it was both because they have to and and it's harder to retire, but also because they want to and they're staying in the workplace. So these generational clashes really aren't going to go away. To talk us through how to deal with that reality, our guests today worked and succeeded in multiple

workplaces where most people weren't her age. Karen Way three has worked in technology businesses for over thirty years. She's worked at Google and Twitter, and she now runs her own company, Cavox Media. Thanks for joining us today, Oh I'm happy to be here. So we normally don't start interviews with such a personal question, but given the topic,

we're wondering, how old are you? I'm sixty six and yeah, so that's relevant because you've worked at some of the biggest names in Silicon Valley, which is a place that's notorious for being on by twenty year olds. You started working at Google when you were fifty two, So what is it like being one of the only older people at these companies? You know, you're definitely in the minority, no, no question about that. You don't have a lot of

age peers around. But I have to say, um, I had been working around technology businesses for many years, and I got my start working for computer magazines. There was a world of paper computer magazines and there were many of them. So it makes a big difference if you have credentials that people recognize, and I was lucky that I did. And it's on that basis that I've held a lot of the jobs I've had, including when I

got into Google at age fifty two. Would you say that you've experienced age discrimination in your line of work. It's such a hard thing. That is so not a yes, no question for me. Because yes, there are subtle things that you know, you might in two it as some kind of age discrimination, just like you might not be sure about gender or raised discrimination. Uh in some instances. Uh. For me, I mean, I think I had to accept long ago that I was going to be in a

minority right, or several minorities. Also being a woman in tech. The assumption about my age was you are professionally developed. You don't need the kinds of things that younger people coming in need, for example, training about uh, you know, how to be a manager, or training about career development, or about um, you know, trying new lines of work or rotating to different offices around the world. So I wasn't an obvious you know, thought for those kinds of

things for good reason. But at the same time, you know, I don't feel like anyone in particular, and this is not just at Google, this is all through my career was specifically looking out for my professional development. I was the one that needed to do that. In your article, you mentioned that you've had the experience of working for people quite a bit younger than you. I'm wondering what that was like. You know that took some adjustment for

me to work for people who were younger. When you work in tech for a long time, you expect that the norm is not the most senior people with the most tenure are on top. That's not how it works right in tech, but very well documented. So that was not my expectation. I for a brief time when I first got to Google, I thought, well, they're going to need my management experience and my sort of overall maturity

as the company continues to grow. And they did. But it wasn't an automatic gimme and the way I thought it would be, because at the same time, the population is such that um people who are very energetic, enthusiastic are the ones that you want to give incentives to and have them learn how to do these things, a

philosophy that I understood. But at the same time that meant that along the way, I worked for people who were at a minimum twenty years younger than me, and you know, some understood who I was and what my value was and didn't sort of peck me to death. And then there were some who, you know, felt they had to show off that they were quote managing and and and they did. So there were you know, there were there were some hard moments, uh, all around. But the other thing in tech is you don't tend to

stay in one The organization shift around you. So I never had any any one manager for very long. It just became kind of part of the landscape. I'm wondering what that looked like when those younger managers who were less comfortable working with someone older, what did that look like when they pecked you to death. Pecking means micromanagement in this case, or second guessing me, which I just was not used to. So I won't I won't deny it.

I mean, there were there were tough times. There was you know, one guy in particulars maybe maybe twenty years younger, and he was itching to be promoted, and that meant he had to have experience managing people, right, I mean that he had to have that credential earned. And he I don't I knew coming. I knew he was hired as kind of a lone ranger. I knew he was

kind of a solo guy. But yet he wanted to earn this because he really wanted to be the next level of So I understood that maybe he didn't know I was aware of it, but he he kind of processed things and minutia and reporting on what I'd done and that kind of thing. And you know, I did it for a while, but we definitely had tension between us. And finally I really thought about it hard, and I really thought, you know, I'm not going to let him get best of me, and this is going to change.

So one day and one of our sit downs, I just had a frank talk with him because we both had felt the tension, and I said, look, you don't like the tension. I don't like the tension. Let me tell you what will work better in working with me. This will and this other thing won't. The micro managing won't. And you know you have to trust me. I'm willing to go along with some of the things you think you need to do, even though I questioned them. Let's just try and make this work. And he really backed

off then, and um, you know, it went fine. And then he rotated on to another to another group, and I had a different manager and and it was a different situation where they did trust me. So you know, it wasn't fun necessarily, but it wasn't horrible either, and I got through it. Do you think this is something that's a little more widespread than just the companies you've worked at or the tech industry, Like, have you heard

similar stories from your peers? I have, and it is getting to be because, let's face it, generationally, it's just the law of large numbers right thinning the ranks as they get older, not because they're retiring. There may be going to work for themselves. They're shifting out of the big corporations, they've been downsized, whatever it is. And meanwhile there's a new wave of now several waves of younger

people coming up. So it definitely happens. Especially I think some companies feel like, not tech so much, but they feel like we need to get some fresh blood in here. It's kind of a fad in a way to say, like we're proving that we're contemporary and tech savvy in another industry for example. So yes, you certainly do hear of it. And I suspect it's actually tougher outside of tech because they have so many more norms about a

hierarchy than tech does. We've been talking about your specific experiences, but what are some of the broader issues that older workers face. Well, you know, since I wrote that article, have to say I had in mind older workers when I was making suggestions about things like the ability to have more flexible schedules and the ability to you know, rotate shadow other teams, learn about other roles, rotate maybe

two other locations. But the fact is, it turns out, and I heard from lots of readers on this that that's that's true for returning moms, uh who have been caretakers or had babies, that that's true for people who have moved to a different area maybe because their partner got a new job and they had to look. So it turns out it's not just accommodating older workers, it's it's also just good for everybody to have some more inventive ways of managing you know, roles and tasks and

sort of being more creative about them. What were the other some of the other recommendations you made in your story for how companies can better address age differences. Well, one that is kind of maybe an easier one to do is team socializing. Right, So it's a good idea for teams to let off steam and get to know each other a little bit outside the office, even if it's at an off site or some other work related thing. But I've been in situations and I know of people

who have had tougher ones that I have. Where you know, the the off site or the quote fun activity, it's definitely not geared to not just age, but just different kinds of people. So if it's rock climbing, or if it's I don't know, paintball or something, you know, these are maybe gonna lend themselves to the widest spectrum of the team. And yet there's sort of a political price to pay if you don't participate. So I would encourage you know, managers and leaders to think about, let's put

some parameters around the work related social stuff. What would be best to accommodate truly everybody in the group, because of should find out that you know, there's this one is is a recovering alcoholic, or this other one has little kids and is a single mom or dead, and so you you want to accommodate everyone's a schedule to the best of your ability, and to accommodate the kinds of activities where people can can get to know each other and socialize without having this these sort of rigorous

physical tests or non work our tests. What would that be like, Well, it would be like, let's go to a place right after work. I've I've actually had teams where we've done this many times where you break early, you leave at four four thirty, and you go to not just a bar, but a bar and restaurant that serves food and people can just sit around and socialize. They don't all have to drink, and you can have a thing where you change seats at some point and

get to know someone else. Things like that that are a little bit more or Volunteer activities is another thing that is a great way to have people work on teams together for whether it's a food bank or something like that. That can be actually a lot of fun and you're doing good and it's kind of interesting to see how the team work goes and help people throw themselves into it where you're working together to help some

worthy local organization, you know, get get something done. We hear a lot about benefits that cater to millennials because they're desirable to hire, So like student debt benefits and parental leave. What are some benefits older workers might want.

A big one that comes to mind, honestly is ways to help with elder care right because boomers and even actually the next generation up um are now looking after elderly parents or grandparents, and that has all kinds of challenges to it, depending on the situation, and sometimes it requires a leave from work, or sometimes it requires just um being able to make calls from work to talk to the doctor, or to make appointments. Any number of things can come out of uh, some kind of elder care.

I did this on my own. I was at Google, which treated me very wonderfully as I as I did it, but I was a long distance caretaker for my mom and I had a good experience, uh fortunately. But I know lots of people really struggle with this, So that that's one kind of idea. What if, in a worst case scenario, you are at a company that really isn't treating its older workers better, what recourse might you have?

Age discrimination cases, I've come to understand are very difficult to pursue and to prove so and that's never a first resort anyway. It's good to document what's what the experiences and to talk to someone outside about it. But sometimes, honestly, it's a it's a tough thing. It's it's either if you can patch things together just for you personally with the people you work with. It's kind of off the books, an informal great if people are just downright treating you miserably.

I mean, I'd love to say you've got to get out, and I know that's harder to do in some cases when you are older. So I'm afraid I don't have a good, you know, one size fits all solution for that. And one final question, as you mentioned that you've got response to your article, where are some of the stories you were hearing from other people who did feel that

age had been an issue in their career. Actually, what I heard I mentioned I was referencing earlier, which was I heard from people uh, pretty much from thirty five up saying A, this is familiar to me, and be um what you're suggesting as some fixes work for me a new mom, or work for me returning to the workforce, or work for me you know, needing to work part time because I'm a student. So again, it wasn't a matter of just um age related fixes alone or suggestions.

It was Oh, these things can help a number of people at different times in their lives, which I think is actually the better way to think about it than just let's have a checklist for this category of worker and then well will be done. That that should never be the way employers, you know, approached their their workforce. Anyway, Well, thank you so much for taking the time and talking to us. You're quite welcome. I'm happy to be here.

Karen's experience kind of runs counter to the stereotypes that we've been hearing about the generations. Um. She said that she got used to working with people who are younger than her, and she ran into problems, but it kind

of sounded like problems you would run into with any manager. Yeah, it just drives home the message that it's wrong to go into any situation assuming that every older employee is going to be kind of set in their ways and hanging onto older traditions, and that every you know, young upstart boss is going to be really entitled and arrogant. Yeah.

And I think the problem was more that she was working in a workplace that was homogeneous in a way that was different from her and at times didn't recognize that. And she gave suggestions for what some companies could do

to better include people who are older workers. And there's even more that some companies are doing so As of fourteen, at least CBS had the Snowbirds program where they would fly down workers to Florida for the winter months, and the people who like to use that were the older workers who didn't want to be in the cold climates

and the winter months. I think that's very creative. And you know, some of the other things that she mentioned, including just like making work events less geared towards boozy late nights and stuff, as she said, didn't just benefit people like her. They've benefited people who needed flexible schedules, people with elderly relatives that they were taking care of, people with families. And it's just like so many things

that we end up talking about on this show. Whenever there's an initiative that helps one group, it tends to help other groups as well. So I think that can be helpful. When companies think they're doing something that's really catering towards a small group, they're actually probably helping out a bunch of different groups of people in their company that they haven't necessarily thought of before. Yeah, and even now those millennials are starting to age into having families

and we'll need some of those benefits too. And now it's time for half big takes, half fake takes. You can always call in with your own half bag take at two and two six seven zero one six six. This week we have a listener half big take from Chris Mac who tweeted at us. He said, to add on to your escalator half baked take. People that walk left and then suddenly stopped near the end dangerous, Please keep game. There's so much danger on the escalator. I

don't know what people are thinking, honestly. Yeah, I get various stressed out when somebody pulls out their phone towards the end of the escalators. That stuff that stuck the escalator exit is a challenge, even if you're like fully tuned into your surroundings. And I don't know why you would walk the whole time and then become parallezed at the key moment when you actually need to move the fastest. Yeah.

I don't think there are two sides to this happig take. No, it's just it's more support for my genius idea, my million dollar idea of walking school, which a lot of people in New York and probably even more people in other states need to go to. Definitely all right, Francesco what is your brilliant idea that you must share with the world. So reply all email chains get a lot of flak for just being the worst. UM. We experience

them at work. You know, one person sends an email to a million people and then everybody replies all on the chain goes on forever and it's to leave listen just extually life heck. But I my have big take is that there are actually some reply all email chains that are not that annoying. So I cannot think of any, but you must have been. Okay, I'm on one right now.

So I'm on like a forty five email long thread UM that started several months ago, and it's with I will admit it's not work related, it's social, but it's all of the people that, um, the couple I'm going on vacation next week and there's a couple other families involved, and we're all emailing each other about the vacation and everybody has responded to everybody with the most my new details, like their flight information and their random idea about where

we should go on this day. And it's like, it's not totally necessary and I really want to be annoyed by it, Like I want to be like people come on like, let's let's but every time I get every time I see that that thread got longer, it makes me think of my vacations. What makes me happy, because that's about a fun thing. Yeah, even if the emails themselves are not that fun. Logistically, I generally think we should be more pro emails. So I will support this,

but reluctantly. Fair Becca, what's your happy take? This is a very hot, happig take I learned when I first proposed it. And it has to do with work, because it's about getting ready for work obviously, and it's that I'm very pro bathrobe. Yeah, I use one as a towel replacement, and you know what, it's really amazing and I'm I'm actually I'm just coming out because I've been ashamed of it for so long and I will not

be silenced any longer. Okay, I don't think. I don't think that the that the strange behavior is using a bathrobe, but I do think that the the use of a bathrobe to replace a towel is unorthodox. It's a terrycloth bathrobe. It's made of towel material. That is what it's for. It is so luxurious, and in the cold winter months, it keeps you warm. Okay, I love a bathrobe, and I will also throw on a bathrobe in the colder mine after I leave the bathroom and you know, before

I've gotten dressed. But my thing about drying yourself with a bathrobe is that this is why I don't leave a towel on for too long. Once you have transferred the moisture from your body to the drying implement, I think you start to get a reversal effect if you leave it on for too long, because now let's say you've used a towel, You're wearing a wet towel, and that wetness is going to transfer back to you, so I have to get the towel off you. And I just don't know why the same wouldn't be true for

a bathrobe. I think you need better linens. That just doesn't happen to me. It just doesn't. Well, there you go, just bragging about your quick drying skills. That's right, And this has been half big takes, half baked takes. Thanks for listening to another episode of Game Plan. You can find me. I'm on Twitter at r C Greenfield and I'm at Francesca today. You can tweet your half bag

takes at us. You can call us and leave us a voicemail at two and two six month seven's or one six six and you can also sign up for our newsletter. Just go to Bloomberg dot com slash Newsletters and check the game Plan button. If you like the show, head on over to Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your podcast and leave us a review or rating. I really, I really love it, so just do it. This show was produced by Liz Smith and Magnus Hendrickson.

Head of podcast is Alec McCabe. See you next week. Oakey, use drag for sure? Did you hear me? Don't even It's not worth it.