Being Pregnant Has Affected My Job Performance

to tell you. Yeah, I guess I have some news, something that you might not be able to identify from my voice. But I am myself pregnant, and and I'm very pregnant, which means that you're leaving us. This is the last you'll hear from me for a while. I am going on maternity leave pretty soon. In theory, could have this baby any day, and we're going to talk all about how that makes you feel and that makes

me feel. Yeah, we're going to make this about me later, but first, there is a broader context and a reason to talk about this, Like it feels to me that this has been the year where parental leave policies blew up as a political issue and gender equality issue and really got talked about and examined in a bigger way than before. You know, we hear all about how the US falls way behind other developed countries in its protections for pregnant women and also the benefits offered to pregnant

women by private companies. But there have also been a lot of strides toward fixing that deficit, both in a policy way and companies. San Francisco passed a fully paid printal leave law, and New York State also passed a family leave law, two things that were pretty groundbreaking, which yeah, is sad and and myself, but great for lots and

lots of parents and companies. Private companies have also been certainly in competitive industries, typically white collar industries, private companies have been trying to do more to address the issue of how crappy benefits tend to be for and dads. There's this kind of arms race that's happening. Uh it is to just hire more people and keep them to stay your company. But it has a great effect that lots of big tech companies in particular have added parental

leave policies. Right, So it's been a it's been a pretty good year for acknowledging this problem in a lot of companies and municipalities and governments kind of taking steps to address it. But there's also another level to this. It isn't enough necessarily to offer better benefits or better

job protections. There are two articles recently that shed a lot of light on this subject for me in moving it past just sort of offering people more time, and one of them is actually one that you wrote on paternity leave policies and how men, even when offered generous leave policies, are reluctant to take them. Yeah, so one big effect of giving men time off is to even out the gender wage gap, and that the career penalty that women get for taking time off to take care

of kids or having kids. Because if women are taking time off, if moms are taking time off, but dad's are just carrying on working for most of the time that they're infant, children are born, it's obviously going to take a toll on one another. And they're all sorts of effects that that has. So a lot of companies are giving men time off to hope to even that out. But this survey found that men are scared of taking time off because they're worried that it will hurt their

careers bingo, which is exactly the point. But yeah, it sounds counterintuitive, but it's like, right, everybody should get the same penalty. Yeah, it's suppose you need to be out of the workforce to take care of your kids, just like a woman, right, But they don't want to, and they're correctly identifying that probably their careers will suffer, which is something that primary caregivers have known for a while. But they can't necessarily opt out. Someone's got to change

the Yeah, so it is unfortunate. And another story that really helped me see this in a different light was one that was published in The New York Times not too long ago that pointed to a shift in academia and how academic institutions address the parenthood penalty. That you have a limited amount of time to obtain tenure at a certain point in your academic career once a clock starts ticking. I think it's like seven years, and obviously

parenting a child would cut into that. So this study that the Times reported on looked at policies that try to address that by adding a year of extra time per child, and the findings from the study where that that extra year per child actually benefited men their rates of tenure went up, but not women. Their rates of tenure actually went down. Yeah. One of the researchers said she knew that that wasn't working, but that she was shocked at how much a penalized women. Yeah, it was

this unintended consequence of a gender neutral policy. And one of the theories was that men were using this time to just publish a lot more and get a lot more done towards obtaining tenure, and women were not necessarily doing that. And you can infer from that that they were using that time to spend more time with their families and take on more parenting duties. Yeah. And one of the professors said something that I think was kind of controversial, and she said that giving birth is an

agenda or neutral event. You know, she was throwing up all the time, and her male colleagues were getting the same time off when they weren't having those experiences, right, And I don't want to advocate for men getting less time off, but it really isn't interesting how to think about how we deal with the different ways that being pregnant and having a child has an impact on men and women. Giving people more time off isn't gonna isn't

going to shift that right away. And one thing I think is really interesting is we spend a lot of time talking about the period after you have the baby. Rightly so, because we need to fix all of the policies where people don't get enough time to raise their infant child and keep their jobs intact. But pregnancy itself is something that has an impact on your job performance. And it's kind of controversial to say it, but I

know that that's certainly true for me. I mean, you are going to be sick and in discomfort for the better part of a year, and you know, I mean, I certainly remember my first time MR. The period where you get the sickest in pregnancy is ironically at the same time where you tend to not be telling people that you're pregnant, so you look at best, you're sort of mysteriously absent a lot of the time, and you know, at worst your your green and wretching every day, and

you feel better as you're underling. I didn't I didn't notice, I didn't I didn't think that you weren't performing, but it does seem very impossible and difficult. It's I mean, you know, even in the even in the ideal pregnancy, not everybody gets sick during pregnancy. And so even in these magical unicorn pregnancies where nothing goes wrong and you feel fine the whole time, you're still going to have

more document doctor's appointments than you would normally. You're just going to have more things to attend to in your life than you normally would. And it's almost scary to say it in a recording, but being pregnant has affected my job performance. I'm not able to work at certainly not at the stage of pregnancy that I'm in now, and there there aren't really any systems or allowances in

place to to acknowledge that. And also, as a pregnant person, you're very almost defensive about being treated any differently because, yeah, because you don't want to be. And we grew up in a time, or at least I did, when we heard that, you know, men and women are equal and you can you can't raise a family and have a

kid and you can do it all. There's no difference. Yeah, there is, But I think that this is a good time to introduce our guest, Jordan's Salcito, who had a job that was very diametrically opposed to what we think of as being a pregnant person. Yeah, I mean her job is a big part of her job is tasting wine and her life's pursuit of becoming a master somlier, and that is just about the most stigmatized thing you can do during pregnancy, short of having a job as

a professional cigarettes poker. Our guest, Jordan's not only is the beverage director at Mama Fuku and founded her own wine company, but studying to become a Master smalier is a demanding and rare qualification that requires ten exams and multiple years of preparation. Thanks for being here, in Jordan's thanks so much for having me him honored to be here. So you're obviously really ambitious, really successful, and on this very difficult career path. At what stage in your career

do you feel like you were when you got pregnant? Okay, So I found out I was pregnant just a few days after not getting my Master similier accreditation. I had just so that final exam is made up of three exams, a service portion, a theory portion, which is like a hundred questions about anything relating to wine anywhere in the world, and then the blind tasting exam. And I had passed the blind tasting exam, and I had passed the theory exam, and I missed the service exam by a few points.

So I was really sort of sad about that, and I was thinking to myself, Oh, it's really too bad because now I can't get pregnant. I need to pass this exam before I do that. And then lo and behold, I was six weeks pregnant at that time. And were you worried about how it was going to affect the coming Yeah, I was, because I think one thing. When I first found out, my first thought was like, oh, dear, this is not good timing. Did you have to delay

your studying for this Master's Masters smally and all? Did it change your trajectory? It did this past year because the exam is only offered once a year, so I reset, you get three years to pass all three parts, and everyone I know thinks that they're going to like knock it out right away. And then you go in and it's some things are in your control, and some things

are not in your control. So you know, three years ago, I was like, Okay, great, you know, I'm going to study really hard and I'm going to focus really like singularly on this, and I have three years to knock it out, no problem, And it's really a humbling experience in the best way. And what I found, I truly do believe this. I remember like driving back from Aspen

to Denver, where my family is. Um the exam is offered in Aspen every year and that's the only place, so it's on that drive back and I could obviously sad that I had not passed, and I had not passed because of one table in one part of the exam, So if he had gone like a few points to the other direction, then I would have passed. And I

was thinking about it and I was obviously disappointed. But then the flip side is like, Okay, you know, this is like a community that all understands how hard it is to sort of even just be there and show up, and you make these friendships that are very they're very genuine, and they're very real, even though you know these people for like fewer hours or a short like because you sort of have this common experience and you're all in

the trenches together. So even though like there were um there were two women that I studied with and actually another guy as well, like the day before the exam, and we decided we were going to do this thing, which was successful and enabled me to pass the theory part.

But you basically like hold yourself up in a room and you just go through the world of wine, and like everyone asks ten questions in that way, Like you know, there were like certain questions that I wouldn't have remembered to study, but they had come up in this conversation. And I know that some of the things that I had had in my log book came up and those

ended up on the exam. So and we should say about that bond that you form with this like small group of people that's doing the same thing as you. It is a really small group of people, right, Like there are only a couple of hundred Master Simmons in the world, yes, exactly, and I want to say it's like a hundred and seventy or something. In the US

there are a hundred. And then more shockingly, there are only twenty three women women, which I wanted to ask you about you're kind of on this path, and you said you mentioned this community, But I wonder how much that community thinks about someone might get pregnant in the middle of this journey. It's so interesting. So when I found out that I was, I don't think that there. I think I might have been the first person to

put in a request. My thought was, Okay, while I'm pregnant, that's going it's going to be easier to study and take this exam if I'm pregnant as opposed to if I am taking care of a small child. So there's also an exam in London. So I did ask the court if they would be open to me taking the exam in London. The court is the Court of Master som I love that too. I just imagine you bowing before the court homecoming like a long road. Um. Yeah,

there's a lot of tradition in there. But I asked if I could take it in London, and I guess it was determined that that would maybe put me at an unfair advantage, so I was not granted that request. Um, that's kind of funny. They're worried about putting it an unfair advantage when you're at maybe a theoretically huge disadvantage. That was, what would the advantage that you could take it sooner? That you could take it sooner exactly, And

and there is that it vantage. I think the counter argument as well, you know, you're also not sleeping as much and you can't keep any down. Yeah, and you're about to prepare for like the most physically and emotionally traumatic moment of your life. So there's there's also all mail no, no, no, it's not there are there are the twenty three women in the US gun Court, and there I think of a handful also from the London branch um, but there are far fewer women to be sure,

as you just mentioned. And then the other option was to take it in this year when it was offered again. So the way that now they've restructured it a little bit, and the way that the exam is organized as everyone has the opportunity to take the first part of the exam, which is the theory part now, So whereas before you could sort of take them all through at the same time and pass in whatever order you wanted to pass, now you have to sort of get through the gates

of theory and it's an insanely intense exam. So what I did before the like, before that day of being old up with the three other people, I spent the week beforehand completely by myself. I went to my parents house. I have a house in the mountains in Colorado, and I was the only one there, no no anyone else,

And I just studied for that entire week. And it was like, it's things that you're already studying the whole year before that and the year before that too, but it's just there's so much and everything is fair game. So I found it very helpful for me to just

sort of like focus entirely on that. And then I had this vision that I would take that theory exam this year when and Henry, my son, who is now four and a half months, he was four and a half weeks at the time, and in my mind, um, I was sort of like, oh, that's no problem, Like baby sleep a lot, it's not going to be a

big deal. I'll just like hop on a plane and maybe I'll bring him and maybe I won't, And then of course you get to sort of that was like an unrealistic idea in my in my head, I think it would have been one thing if I had a private jet and could have that by myself. But ye, and maybe a team of helpers. Is somebody who did not have a private jet or a team of helpers, then then it just and also it just didn't seem

like it made any sense. It was sort of like, why would I do that and put this tiny baby, Like, either I leave the baby at home, and I'm the way that this baby gets fed, and so like do I want to really and and also those four weeks leading up to the exam, I really like it was simply not my highest priority. It was sort of like you immediately have this this tiny little being who depends on who was a hundred percent dependent on me for survival.

So you've delayed, You've delayed it. Now delayed it now? Yeah, so I will wait until next year? Yeah, because you only have one. There's only one time every year that it's offered. I think it's so important when you say, like I'm the way the baby gets fed, and that your priorities automatically shift and there's not much you have

to do with it. Because one of the cultural issues that women tend to wrestle with around maternity leave is that your colleagues kind of think you're on vacation when you're not there, and all they're really aware of is that you're not there. And no amount of human resources trainings can really train people to understand that there's a reason you can't take their emails and you can't even really prioritize work questions over this human being you're trying

to keep alively totally. And I think what I what I believe is that anyone who has a child is immediately empathetic, and anyone who hasn't had a child, but at some point in the future will will then get it immediately. You know. The thing that I was worried about it was sort of like, what what if I stopped caring about all the things that I care about now?

Like what if I, like, I know, I'm going to prioritize this baby because I'm biologically programmed to do that, but what about all of these things that I've cared about up to this point. Or That's exactly what I'm going through right nowtally. And the best analogy that I heard was that it's like discovering a room in your house that's your new favorite room. So it's like your house. It's not like you have to move houses and downgrade houses or that like your house goes to pieces or disarray.

It's that you just have this new discovery and you sort of love spending time in that room. And I love that. Yeah, So I want to talk about that time for you, the time when you're pregnant, because we often talk about having kids in the workplace after the kid is born, but pregnancy is also a big part of that. And your job being someone who not only is studying to be a master smell a but beverage director and you have a wine company. Alcohol is a part of your life. So how how did you deal

with that at the time? Such a good question. Okay, So for me, I guess the first thing I did is I wanted to read all the studies. I think up until you're drinking something crazy like five drinks a day, there's actually no impact on intellect or i Q or behavioral problems. For me, I simply lost my appetite for it, so I didn't enjoy drinking. How Ever, the other piece totally totally, And the thing about it is that that's

that is tasting and tasting. So the other like one of the hormones that kicks in is this ability to like smell things very intensely. And it's inconvenient at times because you just sort of smell things, especially in New York where it totally oh my goodness and like the subway. Yeah, it was, yes, But from an analytical standpoint, it was just as easy to analyze wine or like and make decisions about beverages. For the program, You're lucky you kind

of had this superpower. I I was lucky. I was lucky. I mean, and I think, like the thing to remember and this is, like, I guess if anyone out here is pregnant and doesn't know this, the thing that I learned. It was at twenty six weeks and I ended up in the hospital for premature contractions that were not Brexton Hicks, but dehydration is the number one cause of premature labor. So just drink a lot of water. And I started drinking a lot more water and tons of coconut water

and all that after I learned that. So we're talking a little bit about the biological things that happened and how that affected your job. But then there's the cultural side, and we've been talking about the stigma of being pregnant drinking, So did that affect you at all? That was so present in my mind. I was really very very nervous about that, and and I have to say it was so much easier than I was thinking it would be.

Everyone has a different pregnancy, for sure, but I found that I had energy up until the last like and you know, I think some people show differently than others, And I found I was up through six and a half months able to sort of hide, like just with really baggy clothing or which it's unfortunate that you have to do, but it was, Yeah, I mean part of me was like, you would be way more badass if

you didn't feel like you had to do that. But I remember there was a great tasting with Dances Robinson. She came to down a guy named Levy Dalton organized a few similias and Dances was there and I didn't want the conversation to be about pregnancy because I felt like, that's not like me being pregnant. It's not an illness and it didn't impact my brain and you know, I was still able to think in the same way and make the same sort of decision. Sounds like for you,

and in the end, being pregnant it helped you. It did because it gave me this sort of like understanding that it's not I was. I had a lot of fear surrounding it, and in my reality was that my bosses were very supportive, my team was very supportive. Some of the team are women and some of the team are men. Um We as women are charged with making up the workforce and repopulating it. So there needs to be understanding and there needs to be empathy and um

and maternity leave is critical for that. I want to just thank you so much for coming on and talking to us, and this is really really interesting. Thank you so much. Jordan brought up a lot of really interesting points about being pregnant and having a baby all while being an ambitious working person. But we've delayed the inevitable for long enough. It's time for the host handoff. We

have Sam Grobart here with us. He's a writer of Business Week, and we'll be taking over for Francesca as the game Plan co host while she's gone on maternity leave. Hey Sam, Hello, Hi Sam, So what do you believe your qualifications are for this job? I'm a native English speaker. I've been working also for many years. That's a really big one that I was hoping. You might say having a job is key to talking about having a job. I've actually had many jobs. I think this is maybe

my tenth in twenty years of working. Well, how does it feel to be stealing my job? Great? Spectacular? Do you get to come into something that's more formed than it would have been if you were starting from the beginning. I know you guys have done all the heavy lift thing, and I just kind of get to come in and coast, which is fantastic. So I thank you for laying the foundation upon which I will just sort of leisurely rest. What does it feel like to be taking over for

somebody who's it going on maternity leave? Does it feel like anything? I do feel an obligation and an understanding that you will be returning, and so my feelings are to be more of a caretaker of this, an active one. Yeah, I mean it's dynamic and clever one, but yeah, exactly, it's it's a fix. Grateful if you were not better at this than I am, I have no doubt, but I kind of want you to be good at it, you know, like I want some guy in, But how good is the question, because if I get to be

you know, I don't. I don't want it all about Eva. I'm not trying to like muscle you out. Okay, So we're all joking because Sam's great, and Sam has lots of other stuff to do that is probably more important than trying to steal my job. So um, we're sort of making the scenario. But it's a really good example of the way that people, myself especially actually do feel about maternity leave. There's so many complicating interests. You know.

There's me wanting all of the work that I've done to be maintained and maintained well and be in good shape. And the projects that I'm proud of and feel close to, I want them to go well. But then it's like I don't want them to go to well because I want people to want to feel relevant and I want people to miss the work that I did. And then for people who are I mean, I have a few

My job has a few different aspects. Doing this podcast is one of them, but editing stories and doing various other things, those are all being taken over by other people. And for those people, you know, some of them may end up in kind of a bind because they will be expanding their responsibilities and then maybe having to narrow them again, you know a few months down the line when I come back, and they may not might not like that. So it's it's a it's a weird time

for everyone. Have you done anything, either with this project or other work, thank to ensure that when you come back, someone will not have taken over for you, like sabotaged, like hidden, hidden, little detonating computer viruses and files security power. No, I've actually, I've actually felt a really strong obligation to try to shore up everything I can about what needs to be done and make sure that it gets done properly, because I'm I'm really nervous about things falling apart when

I go. But then that sounds like I'm so important, right, Like nothing's gonna fall apart. Everything will be fine. Do you think that you'll miss the day to day of work? Do you think you're that kind of teacher? Mom? I've never not worked for I mean, okay, I'm not going on vacation, so I shouldn't say not worked, But I've never gone that long without having a formal job. But I think my schedule will be dictated by this child.

So in that way, I won't have like I'll have a lot of things I'm going to have to do. I don't know. Am I gonna miss taking the subway intour? I don't know. I'm I'm gonna miss being around other adults and talking about news and thinking about stories and having a purpose outside of being a milk vending machine for a tiny human being. Sam, are you worried about getting a too attached to game plan? It's really I know,

I know. I am hopeful that in the best possible scenario, that I love doing this and everything is wonderful and great, and Francesca comes back and resumes her rightful place here, and that you'll have me back from time to time, maybe a sort of a frequent guest pinchedder co host at the neighbor in the sitcom who comes in, you know, and everybody goes, oh, yeah, yeah, that Well, I'm really looking forward to that, and we'll miss you very much, Francesca.

I can't wait all miss you guys a ton, and I can't wait to listen to the Sam grow Art period. Getting ready. This has been another episode of game Plan. You can check me out on Twitter. I'm at RZ Greenfield. I'm at Francesca today. If it even matters, it does matter. But in the meantime you can find me at sam Grobard And if you want to check out Jordan's Salceto's project Bellas Wines, head to bellas Wines dot com. See you next week. Unless you're Francisca by maybe we can

have your baby on. You know, I don't know how much you'll have to say, but we'll see. Sorry, you can just got that. I'll take us out