Time for a Definition

doing a podcast about it? Anyway? Well, hey, y'all, I want to ask you a question. Sure, okay, all right, just put your put your thinking helmets on you, all right, we'll do. Don't get hurt. Um. Before a second passes, half a second has to pass, right, yes, the full two of them? Actually yeah, I cannot pass until half a second has been right, but before half of that second passes, a quarter of the seconds two of them in fact, right, and so you can't get to the

half a second until the quarter is right. Sure, Let's repeat this process. Okay, does time ever passed? Having down the the amount of time saying like so we're asking what the smallest unit, what what the quantum particle of tina is? Yeah, you kind of have to because I mean, or is there one? Well, well, for instance, we all

remember I don't, well maybe you don't. I remember from my days in the physical science classes and elementary school being told that the atom was the basic building block of matter, and that that was essentially as essentially as small as you can go. We're lying to children. Even at that time they knew. I mean, it's not like we discovered sub atomic particles. Since I'm not that old, they didn't want to pollute your innocent little brain the

idea of quarks and yeah, bossons and things of that nature. Yeah, it's they just didn't want me to really understand particle physics, I guess. And maybe like learning that Santa Claus isn't real what Joe, I don't know, physics is like learning

that Santa Claus is real personally. But anyway, all right, Well that the point magic is possible, kids, The point being that you know, you learned that you can divide things into ever smaller amounts, but there has to at some point be yeah, the bottom level, right, people are coming up with strings and stuff like that, right, strength theory, sure, and so theoretically, based upon our understanding of the universe as it stands right now, the standard model of the universe,

we consider the smallest theoretically measurable length to be the Planck distance. What distance? The Planck Planck length? Alright, So Planck length is, in theory, the smallest measurable distance that we would ever be able to measure. This is assuming that we were ever able to build a measuring device precise enough to measure a plock. There is nothing that we have remotely capable of measuring a distance that's small. But the idea is that you could not measure anything

smaller than that. Ever, it's the smallest distance possible, the plank distance you're talking about. Let's break this down to the physics this so the plant distance, right, Yeah, it's the it's the shortest distance I believe if I'm corrected, that makes any sense in the standard model of physics. That's right, going going shorter? You the math doesn't work, right, it doesn't. Our our model breaks down, it doesn't. It doesn't fit anymore. And so what what is pluck time?

How does that relate to plant distance? Pluck time is the amount of time it would take a photon to travel across plot distance at the speed of light. Okay, so what's what's plank distance? Pluck distance all at one point. Essentially, it's like one point six times ten to the negative thirty five meters. So it makes Yeah, I run into that kind figure all the time. They huge orders of magnitude, smaller than anything we could detect in any way. Right,

it's it would make a nanometer seem enormous by comparison. Right, a nanometer is one billionth of a meter. And then so you imagine something going the fastest a thing can possibly go across that distance exactly. That's that that makes sense, right, plock time. If you if you're going at the speed of light, nothing, as far as we know, according to our model of the universe, can move faster than the speed of lights. That's as fast as you can possibly go.

So as fast as you can possibly go across the shortest distance you could possibly go, therefore must be the shortest amount of time possible with the smallest unit of tik. Well,

bringing to our essentially flawed mathematical understanding of the universe. Yes, but but I mean, that does make sense if you if you're saying, this is the fastest anything can go, and this is the smallest amount of space that's possible, then having something travel that space would have to be the smallest amount of time by definition, because you can't you can't go faster, and you can't be smaller. Therefore that unit of time has to be the smallest amount

of time possible. Okay, so does this concept help us define time? Because no, no, because we're because how do we think on that scale? That scale? I mean, it's great for math. Mathematically, it's fantastic because again it fits our standard model of the universe. But in any meaningful discussion that you know, I can't come up to you, Joe and say, hey, how much plucked time has passed?

It's the last time we chatted. That's not meaningful, right, So we got to figure out another way to define time. How did Einstein do it? The standard story is that he basically said, and we're paraphrasing here, that time is what clock's measure, which is kind of a joke. It's a circular. Yeah, it's a it's a it's a little it's a joke. On the fact that for some reason, we can't seem to define time in a way that doesn't include the concept of time. All our definitions are circular,

right right at just like a clock. Oh, I know, I'd get one now, Lauren just shakes her head disapprovingly. But there there are concepts like this that are that are useful. But you know, there it makes them difficult to talk about. You know, how do you the old one? Like, how do you define quality without invoking the idea of quality? Sure? Yeah, it becomes this whole This again a circular argument. If everything is subjective, If if this thing that we experience

is essentially subjective, then how do you define it? And if it's if it's a point where you know, none of us can can easily explain how this stuff happens, Like how is time possible for our understanding? Time is something that moves in one direction, it's a sequence of events.

In fact, Newton proposed that it was just a series of moments that would stack on to one another, that was standard across everything, because at that time there was no reason to believe other wise that you know, the time as it passed on Earth is the same as time as it passes anywhere else, and it doesn't matter where you are, what you're doing. It's this sequence of

events that continues on until infinity. Yeah, because he never wasn't until Einstein that we started talking about how how space and time are kind of part of the same fabric and that they're fudged around by things like gravity

and speed and all that fun stuff. Well, so I've got here a pretty interesting working not a definition, but but a place to start when thinking about Okay, this is from a Nova transcript I've got here and it's Peter Gallison of Harvard University UM, and what he says in this program is, um, we're always looking for things that repeat over and over again, and that repetition, that

cycle of things forms a clock. I can understand. That's all time becomes is some repetitive process, something we can count, like you know, for like the four seasons or the sun, the sun seeming to come up over the horizon sort of thing. So that's interesting to me because what that seems to suggest is that while it's not circular in that it doesn't rely on the idea of time to define time, it does make time utterly subjective. Like we've talked about in a previous episode, you know about the

physics of relativity and time being actually subjective. It's truly an experience. Yeah, Like, for instance, if you were if you lived on a different planet, if you had never lived on Earth, if you lived on a different planet that had a different uh cycle, if the day night cycle took place. Maybe it's a planet spun faster or

around the sun. Yeah, so maybe maybe it's let's say, let's say, well beyond that, I mean, but that would all depend upon the size of the planet, right, So anyway, let's say that, let's say that it's a twenty hour day, not twenty four hour day. Your concept of a day would be different from my concept of a day. Uh. If you were born somehow just floating in space with no actual guiding experience, then day and night would be meaningless to you entirely. You would have to track time

some other way. In fact, I kind of wonder about that. Let's say that somehow, as a thought experiment, you were born in the middle of space. You're just floating free there. You've got everything you need to survive. But but how would you Yeah, you're you're in two thousand one. Uh. Also also strock Tostra is just playing constantly in the background. No, nor so you're in the right. So you're talking about your you're put into the zone that that is that?

What Lauren? Do you know I have? I have absolutely no, Okay, Superman too anyway, the yeah, your general's odd. But General z Odd wasn't alone. He had other people there. He could he could track time by the number of times his his idiotic uh yeah, how many times he grunted. That's how he tracks time. But no, no, if you were if you were suspended in space and you you aren't on a planet, you're not in in you know, orbiting some sort of other body, how would you would

have to be something internal? If you don't have anything external around you, then you would turn to the number of times that your heart beats, or or the number of times the blink you blink, or etcetera. Yeah, you know, just just any and if you have a iPod up there the number of times blink whetity two comes on shuffle. No, no, this is kind of interesting. I like that you object to my choice of band, which was only based upon

the fact the idea of blinking. I get very well what you did there and Joe is bothered by all

the small things. As it turns out, well, no, it's interesting if you try to look up, you know, look up scientific definitions of what is a second in terms of science, it's some it's you know, they'll say, like it's the time it takes uh this atom to do this, and it's some huge random number that they use as the constant to base that on, which, to me is is kind of one of those funny indicators that are like, oh, second is completely arbitrary, just like what it's Our day

length got divided into some relatively stable, manageable pieces, manageable pieces like hours and minutes and seconds, and that's what a second is. There's no second in the universe right right, And our measurement of time here on Earth is all based on the oscillation of very small things. It's based on on waveforms that we can more or less detect through mechanical means. Sure, like like the vibration of an ion that's cool to near absolute zero. Yes, that's what

the quantum clock is based off of. The quantum clock measures time, or the way we measure time with the quantum clock. Is we super cool? A an aluminum ion to near absolute zero. Absolute zero is a concept where we essentially have no molecular movement. Right There's there's nothing moving because really heat, when you get down to it, is molecules moving around, and the hotter things are, the

more they move around in general. So when you've got going to near absolute zero, there's almost no molecular movement. You measure the the vibrations of this alunium ion, which are at a very regular rate, and you're using a very very precise ultra violet laser that's doing this at an incredible frequency. So every second, it's measuring this hundreds of thousands of times in order to determine, uh specifically,

how long a second is. And the idea is that by doing that you have the world's most accurate clock, which is accurate to what one second for every three point seven million years. You're not gonna you're not gonna worry about losing one for three seven billion years. That's pretty good clock. But it's so funny because it's the most accurate possible way of measuring this utterly arbitrary quantity.

Well it's arbitrary, but it's still meaning. It's it's meaning and especially since I mean, your your average risk watch, which works off of a quartz crystal um, is going to lose maybe fifteen seconds a month. Really high precision expensive watches lose maybe ten seconds a year. To be ere, I would have wasted those anyway, I don't really consider them losing because I what am I gonna do with

those fifteen seconds? Probably, you know, maybe download another movie, go on a tangent on a podcast, could do that, could do that, maybe make a reference to to another another pop band, just to watch jos reaction. But yeah, no, no, it's again we're getting back to the whole idea. Yes, it's an arbitrary amount, and if you were to step outside the human experience, it's largely meaningless. But inside the

human experience it's meaningful. I mean, just like other other ways that we've tweaked time are meaningful to us in a specific context, Like Joe. I mean, there's a there's a something that we do with time every year that I know you're just dying to talk about. It's something that we introduced, Oh run around World War One? For some reason? Why don't we talk about that? Okay? Well, uh, I assume you're talking about daylight saving time. Thank you Joe.

By the way, for all you listening, it is saving singular. Right. That sounds totally wrong, doesn't stop Joe from saying savings every time he talks to me about this. Yeah, we talked about daylight saving time a lot. So yeah, the story of this goes, and this is the funny part, because hey, Lauren, how did daylight saving time get started? Do you know? I think it had something to do with with with farmers needing extra time in the mornings.

There you go, there you go, farmers. Everybody thinks this. I thought this, Jonathan, didn't you think this. I thought it was because our robot overlords came down and told us to switch our clocks back. No, you're you're totally everybody gets this wrong. This is that's I thought exactly. It was farmers, farmers need extra times, something about yeah,

that's not farms. Huh. No, apparently that Well, from what I've read, daylight's saving time or something like it had been proposed a bunch of times by people throughout the years, but the first time it was widely implemented was during World War One, when um various powers on each side, like I think, great Britain and Germany implemented daylight saving time in order to save energy, specifically coal. That coal

and energy were about the same thing. Well, you know, even candles were pretty pretty expensive, and I'm sure that wax was not easy to come by. Well, yeah, no matter what, they were using electric lights or whatever it. Uh, they were burning them into the evening hours and that was wasting energy during wartime, Yeah, which you could use that energy to kill people rather than which is much better. Well, during war, it's kind of necessary at least to the

people fighting the war. That or maybe not fighting, but the people waging the war. Yeah, that they wanted that priority, so that they instituted this. And uh, contrary to what all of us seemed to think before we learn about this, farmers hated this because if you actually think about it, the farmers they have to get up early and they

have to do their chores. You know, they're supposed to do their chores along with sunrise, because there's a bunch of stuff that they get up early to take advantage of the daylight, and because a lot of crops have to be harvested, and it's some specific time frame that has to do with like the do point in the morning, or or or or caring for animals, like there are certain that the animals are accustomed to a particular cycle as well, and so you have your cycle as a

farmer has to match the cycle of the crops and animals that you care for, right but so so you so some politicians come in and say, well, yeah, we're gonna institute daylight saving time, um, and we're gonna steal all the light from your morning and we're gonna put it in the evening where we can use it better to wage war. Um. So the farmers suddenly they get up to do their morning chores and it looks like

Picasso's blue period. Um. Yeah, even if they even if they were keeping their time to the time of the sun, because you could argue that, so why does the farmer even care about what the clock says? The farmer could get up whenever the sun comes up, which is true, except that everything else is working on the clocks. So, for example, the transportation system is working from the clocks. And if as a farmer, you have to get your goods out to somebody else, right, yeah, you missed the

train and everything is exactly. That means that the train is coming an hour earlier than what it did before daylight saving time was instituted. Then you have to rush again. You have to get up earlier than what you would normally get up. You know again, Otherwise clock wouldn't really matter. It's because you have to deal with the outside world that it matters. So there there are tons of people around the world who just give a big thumbs down. Thumbs down there, I was seeing big thumbs down to

daylight saving time, like the state of Arizona. State of Arizona just won't do it. I know. I think it's some Canadian provinces. I think, is it Saskatchewan. Now I'm going to feel bad if from remembering the wrong one. But some Canadian provinces they just know I think. I think Russia as a whole, They're like, no, we know that too cold here. Time doesn't even pass. Yeah, um, stay the same seven. So that's funny though that when I was a kid, I assumed daylight saving time before

I got to the misconception about farmers. I think I assumed it had something to do with like science, right, like the planet this actually it has some meaning that that we must do because of his like leap here. I thought it was something like leap here right where you have to borrow an hour by part of the year and give it back another part of the year. That's telling me a lot about Joe and his child child sense. That's that's you know, that's what makes well.

I mean when you look at it, when you look at it, Yeah, weren't we taught uh that was the smallest building block of matter? Yeah? Well, I mean, this is this is all kind of illustrating how tricky it is to talk about time in any way that is, uh, that is meaningful from outside the human experience. But then again, we all live in the human experience, so what do

we care. Uh, here's what I want to do. I want I want our listeners to want I wanted to watch the Forward Thinking episode about time because it's amazing. Joe did a great job on that. Two. I want you to go to the fw thinking dot com website and check that out. We've got some blog posts, we've got the video series, we've got this audio podcast, We've got lots of other stuff there, and we want you to have a conversation with us to talk about what is it about the future that get that has you

excited or confused. Maybe there's something about the future that you're just what are we going to do in fifty years when dot dot dot. We want to know those questions, and we want to open this up and have a real conversation with you guys, so we welcome you to be take part in that. We are really eager to have this and uh, thanks guys so much for listening and being a part of this so far. We're really excited and we cannot wait to really dive into the

future even deeper than we already have. Guys, we're gonna wrap this up. It's been great. I hope you have been enjoying the podcast less know and we will talk to you again really soon. For more on this topic and the future of technology, visit forward Thinking dot Com, brought to you by Toyota. Let's Go Places,