How Clean is Too Clean?

Busters everywhere, Yeah, yes, space Dustbusters of the future. Yeah, I was looking for Lenz Flair, but my Starship Enterprise doesn't involve that much. Lens Flare. Clearly Abrahams has nothing to do with Lauren's Starship Enterprise. Um. Yeah. If you think about the inside of the ships in Star Trek, they look disgustingly clean. Well, not all the ships in Star Trek, though, that's all the Federation. Yeah, that's right. If you go you look inside the clingon ships, they

look really grungy. And I don't know if it's just bad lighting or if there's like filth on the surfaces. I always assumed it was some kind of like since the Klingons to me were always a terrific parallel for Communist Russia, that it was clearly some kind of like in Communist Russia clingons. I don't I can't really finish that statement where I don't have anything clean. Yeah, yeah, it's it's one of the exactly the machine oils you.

That would be what the way I'd go, Um, yeah, it turns out that, you know, when we think about the Star trek Uh universe, whenever we're thinking about those Federation ships, we have those incredibly pristine, clean ships. This is not the only example of futuristic worlds where everything is spotless and immaculate, right, I mean the spaceship on two thousand one or the space station I guess I

should say two thousand one absolutely spotless. I would say, especially if you look into earlier science fiction, they envisioned the future is an extremely clean place. I think one thing that was a sort of revolution in later sci fi depictions is they sort of dirtied up the future a bit. That's something you saw once you had Star Wars and Blade Runner and stuff like that. Fifth Element, although technically Star Wars is not the future that happened

a long time ago. Well whatever, although lots of depictions in books, I mean you can't see the grid, and I think that a lot of this was also design elements. More so, I mean it was style over the substance of a concept of the future. Um, not that something like the fifth element isn't very stylish, but Highland for example, certainly never sometimes he did, but but he usually didn't

describe his his future escapes as being pristine. Well, no, I would tie it probably to an idea, a sort of utopian idea of about the future, like like in Star Trek. I mean, when you look at and Vary's vision of the future, he has this vision that's generally better than today, very optimistic, right, and and and again that's where that kind of clingon thing comes in, because the Federation was this utopia and cling on society was

portrayed as very much not now. However, I will counter that by saying, there are several dystopian versions of the future that are also very very clean. And in this case, the it's meant to be more sterile, a clockwork orange, right, Yes, So these are world these are worlds where the cleanliness is a symptom of something that's actually rotten in that world where it's not you know, it's not that everything is beautiful and lovely, it's that things are cold and impersonal.

I would say that the association between cleanliness and a sort of utopian vision of the future is understandable once you look at the history of sanitation and sterilization, especially as it comes to medicine and society. Sure, because you can sort of see an arc that, oh wow, learning how to clean up our medical facilities and our homes and things like that, that was actually a big step forward for human beings, right, And that's really what we

wanted to talk about in this podcast. Is this. I mean, it seems kind of odd, but this is actually inspired from one of our our listeners sent in a suggestion. Now, his suggestion was about a very specific thing that we're going to address in a future episode, but in general it had to do with this concept of cleaning and cleanliness, and we kind of got into this this discussion about you know, what, what is the future of this, What is is there such a thing as too clean? Is?

In what realms? Is this super hyper cleanliness necessary? And are there anywhere it's something that would be a problem because again, in these different versions of the future, we have the ones where cleanliness is an example of an idyllic society and others where cleanliness is an example of

some sort of uh dystopia. And of course, in order to discuss that, we we really need to look at at how the technology of cleanliness has developed over the past century or so, because because it is very much a technology or a series of technology. Sure, yeah, yeah, we should. Actually, I'd say we should go back a few centuries um to to the idea of say, germ theory. Yeah, we can go back even further before we understood what germ theory was in fact, because there were some observations

that led to the formulation of germ theory. Right, yeah, let's talk about Igney simil Wise. Similwise, Yeah, a pioneer in antiseptics. So some of ice had a friend named Jacob or Jacob if you prefer the Anglo cutonized version, but ja Cob. He was a doctor who had performed an autopsy and in the process of performing this, accidentally cut himself and then subsequently came down with a terrible

fever and died. And simil Wis was obviously distressed by this because he also, being a physician, was very much upset that his fellow physician passed away and passed away from an illness, and he also was observing something unusual to him. It was that in his area, women who were giving birth who were assisted by midwives were having more having better success with with their their babies surviving childbirth, but the women who were giving birth being assisted by

medical students had a higher rate of infant mortality. And so civil Wise decided to look into this, and you know, it was kind of his friend's death that sort of sparked his imagination as he looked around at what was going on, and he determined that the medical students who were assisting in childbirths were the same medical students who were performing autopsies, and that perhaps they were corrupting the childbirth someway was something that they were carrying from the

the dead bodies. They had no concept of germs at this time, believe it or not, that these people didn't necessarily know that you should wash your hands in between handling something horrible and delivering a baby. And so he ended up demanding that medical students follow a protocol which would involve them washing their hands with a chlorinated antiseptic solution,

and then they saw mortality rates drop significantly. So it became clear that the practice of midwives who weren't coming into contact with dead bodies like the medical students were, we're better than the ones that the medical students were following. And this was a big step. I mean, it was one of those things where you know, today we take

it for granted, but at the time it was revolutionary. Well, moving on from washing your hands, just the idea of water sanitation was something that came to people fairly late, the idea that they needed to be really careful about the water that they drank, and that in fact, that

could cause illness if they were careful. So a doctor John Snow, who, as I put in my notes, obviously did not know nothing for all your Game of Thrones fans out there, found in the early nineteenth century he was he was trying to figure out a cholera outbreak in London, and there was a specific neighborhood in London where there were a lot of deaths due to cholera, and he was starting to really look into what was causing it and He took a very kind of forensic

approach to this. In fact, made a map and plotted out where people were, and he figured out that there was this one water pump that was somehow contaminated with cholera UH. And at the time, this was a a big departure from the common belief, which was that cholera was spread through some form of noxious gas that escaped from the sewers, that it wasn't something that they were ingesting.

So anyway, doctor Snow was able to convince the city government to shut down a particular water pump in this region. He had determined that this one water pump was somehow contaminated, and so they removed the handle. Thus you could not pump water this water pump um and as a result,

the cholera outbreak started to disappear. People stopped UH coming down with cholera, and part of that was also because there was a general um decrease in population in that region, not just from the depths, which obviously that would decrease it, but people were fleeing because they were worried that this was somehow a tainted area and they would catch cholera

if they stayed around. But even taking that out of consideration, they saw a significant drop and that is kind of what led them to the conclusion that water supply was really, really important, and it was very important to have a clean water supply to avoid illness. And it wouldn't be until seventy when we get Louis pasteur uh sending out this idea of the germ theory of illness, that illness can be caused by micro organisms that are too small

to see with the naked eye. But that is what truly revolutionized medicine because now people knew the reason why you had to go through this process of sterilizing everything was because things you cannot see could in fact kill you. Yeah, and apparently somebody named Joseph Lister read old Louis Pastewart.

Joseph Lister promoted antiseptic surgery in the late nineteenth century, and he experimented with anti microbial chemicals, so he would sterilize surgical instruments, wound sites, and operating theaters with stuff like carbolic acid, which was actually quite effective. Uh. Carbolic acid, though also known as finn all, is highly toxic. It's not so much used anymore now we've got other stuff

we use. Yes. And also the antiseptic listerine is named after him, not not invented, yes, not invented by him, named in honor of Dr Okay. Yeah. So now antiseptic surgery and hospital facilities are basically the norm, or at least through what we're striving for, whether or not it's

actually achieved. Um. And as a result of all this work, the medical field sort of put in place standard procedures for how to keep operating rooms clean, how to keep hospital rooms clean, what you should do to your instruments. All right, so we understand that it's important to to be very clean and medical procedures. Now we understand that it's important to to sterilize equipment, to wash your hands. What are the ways right now that medicine, Uh, what

are the procedures that medicine follows too to ensure this? Okay? So currently there are a bunch of methods of sterilization of things. So if you're cleaning off like a a site on a person's body, you might rub them with alcohol or with an iodine solution. Um. If you're sterilizing instruments, one of the most common things you would use is steam. Actually, steam is super great. In fact, it's probably like the best thing to use, uh superheated steam, hot moisture in

an autoclave. So this will like locked steamer box too. It'll get things clean, it'll penetrate fabrics, it'll it'll really cut through and kill pretty much everything, kill or incapacitate. This is also also why you want to make sure if you're ever getting a tattoo or your ears pierced or something else, pierce that the the establishment has not a clave that they used to clean their instruments and that they use, you know, one time use instruments for

things that are disposable and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, there are also instruments that are not tolerant of heat or maybe not tolerant of water, and in those cases there are chemicals that you can use. You can use say ethylene oxide, parasitic acid, or hydrogen peroxide gas plasma. Those are three things I read about there basically in use today or at least being tested. So these methods that you're talking about killing off germs, I've slee it's

solved all the problems. Right, So now we're we've got these perfectly safe medical theaters where there's no worry whatsoever of contamination, infection, Nope, what nope? Okay, So hospitals are obviously a lot better than they used to be, you know, before Joseph Lister, I think it was probably just pretty common. You go get an operation done and then oh you have word fever. I don't know what caused this, but

now you're dead. Yeah. American Horror Story Season two really taught me a lot about the various hospital conditions of the past. Yeah. And they were just they were using unclean instruments, you know, it was just it's gross. Uh. Now we're doing a lot better job. But still we have not gotten rid of hospital associated infections. That's what they're called now, h Ayes. Uh. They did not disappear

after the revolution and antiseptic medical care. In fact, I found a CDC source from two thousand two that estimate did the number of hospital associated infections in US hospitals. So this is just in the US, and basically it came to the conclusion that were there were one point

seven million hospital associated infections. Uh. Part of the problem that we're talking about here is one that we talked about in our antibiotics episode, which is that in in in hospitals, sometimes through the use of of drugs that are drugs or other methods that are meant to kill off bacteria, some of the bacterias survive and become more hardy and difficult to kill. And that therefore hospitals can sometimes contain strains of superbugs that that get passed around

and are difficult to get out. Yeah, because then the drugs you would use to to take care of such a UH infection are no longer effective because they've built up a resilience to that drug, right, right, And I mean, you know, and certainly things are a lot better than they used to be. Like we've said, I always think of that moment in an Undiscovered Country, which which I'm sorry is is a terrible reference to make in a

science fiction show. But when Bones, you know, is here in the twentieth century UH medical center and he's just horrified by everything, He's like, you savages, what are you doing? Technically, that's Star Trek for Voyage Home when they go to rescue Chekhov who's passed out. But did I say the wrong thing? I totally say the wrong thing. I did say Undiscovered Country, which is more about cling on, cling on medical care, which is also complicated because they have

two hearts. It's very warm in here. It is very warm in here. Well, I wanted to talk about one interesting other way I found of disinfecting in hospital facilities, which is using rays. Oh yes, I've seen this sort of stuff where you get like the little UV chamber that can dal's say a device or instrument or even like your toothbrush with uvs. Well, I'll do you one better. Yeah, yeah,

what if you need to disinfect an entire room. Well, so you could wipe down all the surfaces with alcoho hall or with some kind of antiseptic solution, But that doesn't always work, and also that is time consuming and people don't always get all the surfaces they need to. There is, in fact, a disinfecting robot I read about.

This is manufactured by a company called zen X, and it's a little R two D two buddy and you just wheel him on into a room and you shut the door behind you, and it uses a pulse zen on UV light that zaps micro organisms and it will basically kill them. It disrupts microbial life at the cellular level, so different UV frequencies can damage RNA DNA cell walls, internal cellular structures, and it can do a whole room

in about fifteen minutes. You put it in like three different positions for five minutes apiece with the door closed because you don't want to be in there staring at it with it destroying your eyes. And ultra violet light can have a nasty effect on on us, especially if we have prolonged exposure. Yeah, it actually makes use of uv C light, which is the kind of UV light that is usually blocked by our atmosphere when it's sent in by the sun. And supposedly this thing is pretty

durn good. I like to imagine that when this thing is is active. Even though ultra violet lights outside the visible spectrum, we can't see it, right, but I'd like to imagine when it's active, if you were outside the hospital, you just see these crazy disco flashing lights coming out the window and you hear the the Moss Eisley Cantina

song playing. But maybe that's just me. But hey, I want to talk about something else about the future of cleanliness, which is that it doesn't just matter for hospitals because the more we get down into miniaturization, whether it's in the medical field, or in industry, electronics research, whatever it is, having contamination can really cause problems, absolutely so in the manufacturing process for electronics, when you're trying to create semiconductors,

when you're creating micro processor chips, you're talking about working with components that are on the nanoscale. So it's not unusual now to have a computer with a microprocessor where the trans the transistors, the individual components on it may

measure forty five nanometers across or even less. That's super tiny, right, I mean these this is the a scale at which quantum effects start to take take hold, so it doesn't necessarily behave the same way we it would on the classic macro scale, which basically means that if you've got I mean, we're not talking about germs. Most of the electronics that I know about at any rate will not get an infection from a germ like that. But tiny specks of dust could very much screw your Yeah, you could.

You could have an entire die of semiconductor material ruined if there are dust particles inside the room. You want to control for that as much as possible. So as we get to this point where the precision is really important. Something like a dust particle could comple completely dwarfed the components on a chip, and if it were to fall

in place, it would ruin it. And of course, you know that's money, right, You're you're spending money to make this stuff, and everyone you everyone that's ruined you cannot sell, so you lose money on the deal. Yeah, I mean on those scales, having a piece of dust in your semiconductor or or whatever it might be at the nano scale would basically be like having a rock in an engine block. Yeah, it's throwing a monkey causing major problems. But how the heck do you rule out a tiny,

tiny particles micron. There are a couple of different things you gotta do. Well. One, you've got to construct a room that is sealed so that you can seal it off from the rest of the building so that you're not getting air drafts pulling in more dust particles from somewhere else. It's like having an airlock system. Really. Secondly, you have to have an air filtration system that can recycle the air in that room and filter it out

very efficiently. So we're talking like replacing all the air in that room regularly through this filtration system, and most of these clean rooms that you know, that's what they're called in the industry where these microprocessor manufacturing machines exist, are able to do that frequently, like several times an hour. Essentially, as you're you're putting all the air through this filtration system over and over again to remove any particulates that

happened to be floating through it. So you end up with like an incredibly pure air or atmosphere within. They're not like pure oxygen, but as in there there's no particulate matter flowing around. And on top of that, you make everyone played dress up. Yeah, I'd imagine you don't just walk in from the parking lot. No, No, I mean obviously, like you know, anything on you anything like in your skin, particles, your hair, any dust that's on you with in my in my case to yeah and

in my case to now congratulations. So anyway, which would mean you would be uh, I'm not making any nanotechnology. Now, you would not be allowed inside the clean room in that state. So what you have to do is you have to put on a special kind of suit. They kind of look like hazmat suits. They're called bunny suits.

In the industry, that's really what they're called. But it's something that covers you from head to toe so that you can enter the room and not contribute any sort of particulate matter that would otherwise corrupt the system as it's being as it's as it's going through this stuff. Now, most of the time these manufacturing processes, I mean, they're they're automated. Obviously, when you're talking about creating stuff on the nano scale, you don't have someone in there doing

it by hand. That would be impossible. But you know, you do occasionally have to put humans into the system to do various things. So imagine especially if you're doing research. Yeah. Yeah, so it's one of those things where whenever a person does have to go in, they have to you know, get suited up and everything, make sure that they're not going to corrupt it. So yeah, and it turns out it's not just in electron x that this is important.

There's a lot of different industrial um processes that require precision and cleanliness together, and in fact, the more precise you get, the more important that cleanliness is because if it's a really super tiny mechanism, those parts have to fit together exactly, and even just a little bit of grease or oil could make it so they don't set properly. So what do you do? I mean, as it turns out, if you make especially tiny little metal pieces components, often

grease or oil is part of that process. How do you clean something so tiny that you can't just you know, take a brush and brush it off, or take a cloth and wipe it off, because it's far too small for that. What would be your next best approach? I have no idea. Some kind of gas exactly a gas, or at least you start with a gas, but you compress it and lower the temperature down so that you

convert it into a solid, specifically carbon dioxide. According to Science Daily, there's one company it's been looking at carbon dioxide and actually using it to cool it down into what they call snow crystals, and they blast the various components. Let's say that it's a clock mechanism that has really super tiny components in it, and you want to get all the grease and oil off of those parts before you assemble it. They would blast it with this these

little snow particles which are enough to knock off. It absorbs all the oil. It absorbs grease. It can knock off dust without damaging the components themselves. That obviously is very important. You can't just sand blast these things because you don't want to damage them. Plus stand everywhere, so they This is used to shake loose any particles and to absorb oil and grease. And because it's solid carbon dioxide,

it's it almost instantly converts right back into gas. It goes straight from solid to gas, which, if you remember the great movie Real Genius, is totally awesome and you can make something do that. It's like an evaporating sham Wow. Yes, yes it is is a sham well that that disappears

in front of your very eyes. But no, it's a it's a really cool solution literally, But it's a really cool solution because it allows you to clean off these little components convert over to gas, so you don't have to worry about any kind of damage due to moisture. You know, it's not going to get any of the components wet. It just goes straight from solid to gas um. So it's it's really a neat and innovative approach to

cleaning these tiny little components. Yeah, I can imagine how clean rooms and clean industrial and research facilities are going to become even more important and widespread once nanotechnology becomes a more widespread field. Absolutely, yeah, because any anything could could contaminate the sample. Also, I imagine that this would have some kind of crossover back to the medical field.

I mean, any time that you've got got methods of of purifying a situation, an environment, or a piece of equipment, that's that's a good thing, right, Okay, So our need to have things clean and a lot of various settings is getting more pronounced, and we're keeping up. Basically, we're getting better technologies to keep things clean on a smaller and smaller scale. But should be should we be worried

that we're getting too clean? Because I remember back maybe ten fifteen years ago, there were a whole bunch of magazine articles that had headlines like, you know, is your house too clean for your kids? Are you making your kids sick with all of your cleanliness? It was that sort of like mom bating attack kind of headline that you still see, the kind of thing. But there was a lot of stuff about this, and I at the time I didn't really look into it because I was

too young to care. But yeah, yeah, it's called the hygiene hypothesis and um and and it's based around this concept that that getting things too clean has messed with our immune systems. And and this has to do with allergies, because allergy there are really just immune system responses to what's otherwise harmless stuff, you know, certain foods, or pollen or mold, animal saliva, which by the way, it's a saliva usually not the dander itself in general, like if

a cat. If a cat like soon you're allergic to cats, you might end up with a nasty little rash exactly where the cat licked you. I, in fact get that all the time. It's great um. But but at any rate, what happens here is that your immune system attacks the allergen in your blood by producing an antibody that the allergen binds to. But the antibody is also attached to this particular kind of blood cell called a called a

mast cell. And when all three of these things link up, the mass cell is triggered to produce chemicals, including histamine, which causes the symptoms of an allergic reaction. So essentially, what we're saying here is that your immune system no longer has to do the work it would have had to do if you were surrounded by germs all the time.

So like the fact that we have managed to reduce some of the micro organisms around us particular, really, if we're in a a hyper clean home, that this this hyper clean realm means that since our immune system doesn't has to work against micro organisms, it gets bored and

starts a fight club. Yeah, that's I mean essentially, or furthermore, that your immune system won't be primed, it won't be strong enough to deal with with microbes when they do come around, and that therefore they won't be able to kill those off efficiently. Right, And uh, it's interesting in our notes here, the tendency toward having allergies is genetic, but specific allergies are not inherited. This explains why my parents are able to eat lobster to their hearts content.

And I am not Oh, you're allergic to lobster, deadly allergic to lobster. I'm allergic to red lobster. I am amused, Joe, But I am, in fact, I am seriously severely allergic to lobster. Like if I eat lobster within an hour, I'm having some really nasty symptoms, you turn into Kirby. I kind of I did. I definitely get pink and puffy and then I stopped breathing. So that's a problem. Yeah, that's that's bad. I once wore a lobster costume for

I mean, completely legitimate editorial work purposes. I can tell you the story about that one later, um and what it was. Sort of itchy. I once broke out in a rash of to be fifty two concert there at any rate. So do you guys, do either of you have any severe allergies? Not really, My wife has really bad allergies. Yeah. I don't have any anaphylactic allergies, um, but I do have some like seasonal pollen related kind of things and cats cat dan. The only the only

two anaphylactic ones I have are lobster and alcohol. So Al's lobster and liquor shack is way off. I can't. But you can eat as many oak tags as you want. Yes, okay, but but so an interesting thing that that research has been done about by the National Institutes of Health No less UM is that more people are experienced allergies recently

than they were in the past. UM. One particular report said that over Americans surveyed from from said that they were sensitive to at least one allergen um, which is two to five times the rate from a survey conducted

in nineteen seventy six to night Right. So, one of the suggestions for what is contributing to this uh perceived increase in allergies is that the hygienic practices that we have put into place may in fact be putting things out of whack, right, right, that these that that hygiene hypothesis that um that sterile environments actually lead to more illness. And this isn't just in the antibacterial way, which again we talked about in that previous episode, UM, where we're

not just creating superbugs. It's that our immune systems are basically bored or underdeveloped. Right. So the thing is that this is not this is not a hypothesis that has gone unchallenged. There are are plenty of arguments against it, or at least saying that the cleanliness of our environment maybe a factor, but it's probably not the major factor. Well, I would just like to point out that our homes

are not sterile. I mean they might be might be cleaner than they were a hundred years ago, but they're not. But the perception based upon that mom bate, you know, fearmongering we talked about earlier was that if you don't have a clean home, your kid will get sick, and then it was if you have to clean a home,

you're making your kids get allergies. Oh well, well, part part of this whole theory is that there's a lot of good germs, um, microbiole flora and fauna that evolved in tandem with us and and that are not pathogenic, are not going to hurt us, and that those are also being killed off in addition to the bad bugs that we're trying to get rid of with all of the lisol and vacuuming and uh, I don't know what else really growing everything in Yeah yeah, yeah, mr um

And and there is a lot of actual research involved. This hypothesis was proposed back in nine nine and uh and and since then there have been a bunch of reports that that seemed to indicate that it that it's a thing, that it's a that it's a legit thing. Um. One study found that that kids exposed to farm animals were half as likely to develop Cron's disease, which is an autoimmune disorder, or another one found that infants living in a home with two or more dogs and cats

were less likely to develop allergies than their peers. Anecdotally, I grew up with many dogs and cats and alcohol and lobster will still kill me. But that's anecdotal, and obviously in a scientific study that has no bearing whatsoever. Well, no, but but it is you do kind of raise an

important point. There are many, many, many facets to this issue, and anything health related is going to be extremely complex, So you know, there's there's also indications that that any number of factors from malnutrition to lack of exercise to pollution could be creating these these more allergenic populations. Right, so it may be allergic populations. Allergenic as a whole separate word. Boy, there are a few people here that

I consider to be allergenic. Uh At any rate, The interesting thing here is that you know, it's it's one of those like I said, it could be, it could be a factor, but most people, I think agree that

it's not a major contributing factor. And also it's way more important to be to practice good hygiene and cut down on access to things like, you know, bacteria that could hurt you, rather than to invite it in and say, let's let's go ahead and invite all the germs and dirt and everything into our world and make ourselves sick

and we'll deal with it. Then. Well, I think that there's a happy medium between going out and eating dirt on purpose all the time and and cleaning every thing within an inch of its of its non life, you know. I think that there has to be something in between there. However, I do want to put in that one of the topics that comes up a lot when people talk about the hygiene hypothesis is vaccination, and and there's some amount of rumor that that vaccination is part of the hygiene

problem here. But but really exposing your immune system to more stuff and thus making it stronger is good. Yes, vaccinations are very important. I mean, obviously, uh, we feel very strongly about it. But vaccinations they promote herd immunity, which is incredibly important if you want to prevent things

like pandemics breaking out that otherwise could severely damage a population. Yes, there's absolutely no research that indicates that, um that vaccinating is leading to some kind of immune disorder in anybody.

So bottom line is, guys, go out there and get vaccsnated, you know, I mean, it's seriously I mean, there was a story recently about someone who went to Asia, came back to San Francisco had measles rode the public transportation system, potentially exposing as many as four thousand people just in that time span alone, two measles. California, by the way, very low rate of vaccination, so that was like the recipe for a possible pandemic to break out. So it's

really important stuff. And it's not just so that you don't get sick. It's also so that the people around you don't get sick. And the more people who participate, the better off we are, you know. Just it's it's just simple science. Yes, but this is all very slightly off topic. So yeah, let's clean this up, all right, guys. Here here's the bottom line. We've gotten really good at

creating very clean environments for very specific uh applications. We're still trying to get better, especially when it comes to healthcare, so that we can make sure that uh, we don't end up spreading disease while we're trying to heal others. And really there's not such a thing as being too clean, particularly around your house. I mean, it's not like you're going to create an allergen problem using household cleaners and that sort of stuff. Although you know, don't don't worry

about it too much. I think it's probably the moral of the story, like, you don't You don't need to be hyper village exactly. You don't need to. You don't need to be scrubbing the floor all the way into the wee hours of the morning every day. But at the same time, don't worry that by cleaning up a spill and using some cleaner that you're going to cause our you know, your kid to develop allergies. That way, don't like the floor on purpose, but don't worry if

you happen to. Okay, wise words for us all, So let's wrap this up. Guys, if you have any suggestions for future topics about the future, then you should let us know. Send us an email our addresses FW thinking at discovery dot com and drop us a line on social media where on Twitter, Facebook, and Google Plus with the handle FW thinking. Remember f w thinking dot com is the website where you can look at all the videos, you can listen to, all the podcasts, you can read,

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