Cyborgs, Ethics and You

a human arm, what happens then? But before we get there, I want to talk a little bit about some fairly recent news. Back in two thousand and eleven, a couple of different patients in Europe actually volunteered to have limbs amputated and replaced with a robotic pros thesis. And now these these weren't healthy limbs. They were injured in some

critical way. Yes. In fact, one one of these gentlemen, his arm was injured in a accident where he received an incredible electric shock about say electric cution, but that actually means that you died. But he suffered an incredible electric shock which rendered one of his arms essentially useless. The other was in a terrible motorcycle accident and had

suffered severe injury to his arm. Now this was a controversial matter that these these guys had decided to go and have uh elective amputation because the arm was still there. I mean it wasn't it was it was healthy. It

wasn't healthy, yes, exactly, it just wasn't functional. Right. There was no way to for them to regain the functionality without perhaps having a series of incredibly complex surgeries performed on them, and even then there was no guarantee that they would receive anything like even resembling full mobility of their their limb. So they in in the eyes of

the patient, the choices. Do I undergo this series of surgeries that has no guarantee of real success and it may be that what I end up with is not a lot better than what I have right now? Or do I elect to have this limb amputated and replaced with the robotic pros thesis, which has a demonstrable proof that it can work and at least give me some mobility back. Either way, I'm going to have to go through an intense rehabilitative process to be able to to learn.

But with the robotic one. There's more of a guarantee that I'm going to have some results, right, And doctors were saying, you know, are are you sure because this is very permanent. Yes, there's no there's no going back, right and uh. And in fact, in a woman by the name Nicola Wilding suffered a terrible injury to one of her arms in a car accident, and she now is also looking at the possibility of having her arm

and tated and replaced with a robotic Pross thesis. In fact, she has a Twitter account where she talks about being a potential bionic woman. Um, which is kind of interesting. But this is already a controversy in the medical community.

There's a lot of debate about is it ethical to allow someone to have an elective amputation if there's a chance, even if it's only a small one, that they could regain some use out of an injured limb through through future technology, you know, well through through through traditional surgeries, right,

or even if even if current surgery. I mean, I think with with the with the Nicola, the issue is that, you know, doctors don't think that any time in her lifetime we're going to advance our understanding of how nerves

work and reconnect in order to be able to help her. Right, So, if if she's if she's in a position where there is very little confidence on the part of doctors that they're going to advance medicine to the point where they can actually help her to a great extent, then is it wrong for her to go and seek out an amputation? And it's kind of interesting because it brings up this question of what is so special about our our our natural limbs that makes it an ethical question. I have

to admit it's scary to me. Sure, I I mean, obviously I haven't been in this position, but I'm just trying to imagine it. Imagine that I've had a serious injury to one of my arms that basically is not useful. Um, it can't do anything and seems unlikely that I could train it. Now, on one side of the coin, I can see how it would be h advantageous to get a a very functional prosthetic arm that could do more

than my natural arm could. But it just seems so hard to say goodbye to this flesh that's attached to my body. Which is weird because what am I I know? That's a crazy question. You're a writer for forward thinking, But what am I? When I think of myself? I think of my arm as part of me. But is it really any more part of me than the fingernails that I clip off once a week. I mean, it's proteins that have been made by my d n A.

But is it really who I am? Do I have some kind of loyalty to this particular clump of flesh? And wouldn't wouldn't a prosthetic if it was truly working with you and for you, wouldn't that be equally part of you? Yeah? Wouldn't. Would the robotic prosthetic end up not just replacing the utility of your arm, but actually that identity in that prosthesis? Sorry, thank you Lauren, thank

you prosthesis. Well, I'm just saying that despite all that's rational to me, I mean, it makes sense that I could probably do more with the prosthesis, but I something internally, emotionally kind of recoils at that. I Uh, not that I think it would be wrong for a person to do at all, It just seems so scary. I have a centuries old riddle for you, then, Joe, you have a ship and over time parts of the ship need to be replaced, and you replace the parts of the

ship as time goes on. Uh, let's say you name the ship the heidy Ho. Would there ever come a time after you've been replacing this piece by piece, never huge pieces, just little pieces. Would there ever come a time where you would no longer call it the heidy Hoe because you realize that every single piece on that ship, at some point or another, had been replaced. There's no original part of the ship left. Or does that new

ship that's in that same shape. You know, you haven't changed the design of the ship at all, You've just changed the individual pieces out is the spirit? Is the soul is still hidy Ho? Right? Well, that points out that our idea of identity has something more to do than just the material constituents, because our bodies do the same thing, right like you, technically once every seven years, completely reinvent ourselves. Right is that the some of us? Lady Gaga does it on like a weekly basis. So

I've heard that seven years. I don't know if it's true, but it's but it's definitely true that you know, our body is in constant flux of the cells are being replaced you're not made of the exact same stuff you were ten years ago, right, But I understand entirely that there is I mean, there is something about the idea of of saying goodbye to part of yourself, even if you're getting something new that would give you new, uh

higher quality of life. For example. So the question is, is the arm really more a part of yourself than the fingernails? Yeah? And I think, I mean, I think most of us would say yes. I mean, like yes, that is. I can't tell you why, but it is. Uh. Now, the question I have is that right now, pros theses are all about the medical world and giving people more uh mobility, giving them more self reliance, giving them a

higher quality of life. And all of that is so that you can replace something that's either been lost or damage beyond repairs catching up. You're trying to get back to normal. But let's say that you get to a point where the robotic pros theses are demonstrably better than a human limb. So you you've created a robotic arm, for example, So instead of catching up, you're pulling ahead

ahead your head. Yes, the technology has has progressed to a point where the robotic arm has more capability than a human arm, so maybe it has more points of articulation. Maybe you can rotate your wrist three sixty degrees, which means you can just hold the light bulb and spin your wrist around until it's screwed into place instead of having to do that wonky you know, screw turn screw turns or as we imagined in the in the video episode.

You know that maybe it even coordinates with other pross theses in your body to be a more accurate athletic uh tol. Yeah, sure, so you can shoot baskets better than your normal arms as you get into sensory perception of pross theses for those as well. I mean, you know, when Whenever was watching Star Trek Next Generation growing up,

I always wondered. I always wondering about Jordie's visor because because it allowed him to see most of the electromagnetic spectrum, yes, much much further out than the visible spectrum that all of us are from. At a certain point, I was like, well, doesn't everyone want that? I can't want the ability to suddenly see an infrared or ultraviolet or even radio waves. Or he could look at gamma radiation, things like that probably not so useful here on the surface of the Earth.

Magnetospheres will horrifying. You go to the doctor's office to get an X ray and you can see the rays coming at you. Well, I mean for you, that might be horrifying. But again, this could be This could be something that if we're talking about a prosthesis. If we're talking about prosthesis, a prosthetic I have some sort then presumably you would be able to engage different modes so you wouldn't have to look at everything all the time. I mean first of all, first of all, you would

have to train your brain how to process that information. Right, we would have to have some way of being able to bring that in. Now, if we did it the way that infrared cameras and ultra violet detectors do, then that would just mean that we would have some sort of processor reinterpret that light into something that we could see, so we wouldn't really be seeing outside the visible spectrum. We would be pulling the information. Because how do you teach the brain to do something like that? I mean,

that's a good question. Yeah, that that This is also this is why we don't have journey s Wiser yet. That do you, I mean, yeah, would you see multiple things at once? Would you toggle? Would you have predator vision? You would have predator vision, yes, and then you would also it would also laugh just before exploding. But now getting back into the whole idea about the superior arm,

you know something that something that has that ability. Uh, can you imagine a future where athletes or really anyone volunteers to lose a perfectly healthy limb in order to gain this superior technology and use that instead. So the goal is really pulling ahead. There's yes, it's fully fully functional hand that you go like, yeah, I could get a better one. Let's switch it out. Yeah, Like like to the point where the again, the robotic limb is

beyond all doubts, superior to the human limb. Can you imagine that being a world where people go in for an elective surgery to have a robotic one put in place. Well, I think we've acknowledged that that. I think all three of us agree that. You know, it may be more rational to prefer a superior prosthetic to whatever is attached to you, but you have some kind of strange emotional connection to the flesh that your DNA has generated. Um, what would it take you to get there? Well, you know,

I think there's a there's a basic mammalion. I am alive. I need to preserve myself kind of kind of really intrinsic, you know, drive there. But and that's why, you know, reading about this research is wonderful and terrific, but it also really swicks me out. I find myself extremely disturbed reading about the interesting Okay, Joe, you know, let me tell you this. If I could have a robot arm right now that could allow me to fire NERF missiles at the two of you, I would do it in

a heartbeat. Wow, really do you think about No? I just want to ask you all about the actual your your real trade off. What how good would the robotic arm have to be or the bionic arm? We should say, how good would it have to be? How many advantages would it have to offer before you would actually say yes, I will voluntarily lose the arm that belongs to me and replace it. Does it have to be just a little bit better or does it have to be a

lot better? I mean it would need to it would It would be a lot better for me personally, because, like like I said, I'm kind of squeaked by the entire idea. Can you actually imagine it? Though? I can't absolutely, and I can I can. I can imagine people who are perhaps more competitive than I am, jumping on board

pretty early, I think early adopters. Yeah, you know, it's it's mine mine would need to like make calls and coffee for me and stuff like that, Like it would need to wake up before I do, go crawl around and do some stuff for me and come back and reattach like that's that. That is the kind of level of of you know, so you wouldn't go for say what if your arm could be replaced with one that they promise you that you will not be able to

tell the difference. It communicates directly with your brain, You get good sensory feedback from it, You can control it exactly the same, and you can't tell the difference except it can't get skin infections. Say yeah, and until until I started getting really really unpardonable rashes on my hands, I don't think that I would turn over. I mean, I I don't know. It's it's a good it's a good question. Yeah, I think it would have to The arm would need to have some significant advantages. The NERF

missile thing is a deal breaker for me. Oh, I see what you're saying. Like it has the nerve the missiles they strayed out of it, like the Mega Man like like like like like like like there's a little section in the forearm pops up and their nerve missiles loaded in there. Just by the way, Nerve has nothing to do with this podcast. Yeah, we're not sponsor. It's just just I just really want that. Okay. So you're saying I understand that you want to Mega Man arm, Yeah,

more or less. Okay, So I think I want a combination of the NERF Missile arm and a Nintendo Power glove. But it's just built into my arm. Okay, no, think about it. Like, I like this idea of being able to Now, granted, if we were able to bypass this and not need the cyborg arm at all, the bionic arm in order to do this, then obviously that's the

way I would go. But if if if we had it where my robotic arm is capable of controlling things like the various electronics in my home or that again, like you were saying, Lauren about being able to receive or make calls, I mean, you know, that's stuff that I would really want. Now, Grant, I'm just talking about my right arm. Lefty stays with me because I'm a

left hander and I cherish that. So you were joking about the NERF gun, but you seriously would actually you think trade for a somewhat capable what would you call it, like an executive control electronic. I would definitely it would definitely need to be able to not only do everything that my current arm can do, but do it better. It would have to, because otherwise I'd just be like, well, I mean, I'm not going to lose my arm just

for some convenience. I would. I would need it to be able to perform better, and I would need it also to have those extra bells and whistles. Well, just one thing I was going to say is that I need. I think one thing I would need is the ability to upgrade. Now, sure, imagine that they offer me an arm that's exactly the same as my arm now, but it can't get skin infections, but not like I get a lot of skin infections on my arm, but but just some kind of basic advantage that's not very huge.

But they say software is upgradeable so you know, I would want to can download apps that make the arm even better. I would definitely want both software and hardware to be upgradeable, because as someone who owns a smartphone, there's some thing that's really frustrating about taking home the smartphonement and then like the next week, a better smartphone

comes out. Can you imagine if a better arm came out the week after you've got or even just I mean, you know, what if what if your arm gets viruses? What if your arm gets computer viruses? Or what if someone get viruses? Now what if someone can I well, then is it really an improvement over your current arm um or you know, if if if? What if? What if a virus gets into your arm and it goes bad?

And so now we're going to an idle hands scenario, right, you know what if someone hacks your hand and that's terrible. How many episodes are we going to have where something becomes a robot and then it gets virus eventually they hack it and then it's dangerous. I think everything is potentially hackable. Oh no, they hacked my coffee cup, Lauren. Honestly, I think I think if someone wants to do you harm, they are easier ways of going about it than hacking

into your cyborg. I don't know, but that one has style I would, I would, Okay, Yeah, Well it's good to know that Lauren would pick that. So if we see Lauren with how to hack robotic arms for dummies that are desk, we all know not to go with that. Elective surgery. Well, you know, this is interesting hypothetical conversation in a way, or conversation. It's not, it's a real conversation.

It's an interesting conversation about a hypothetical topic. Um, it'll be interesting to see if we ever do reach a time in our lifetimes where such a consideration would need to be made for realities. I mean, we've seen people elect to have their arms, their injured arms amputated. I don't know that we're ever going to get to a point within our lifetime where a healthy limb would be

amputated by choice. If that does happen, it'll be huge news, and I imagine there will also be an enormous backlash in the medical community and in a real debate about the ethics of such a thing, like who performs such a surgery and is that ethical or not? Yeah, that there's a there's a condition under which people feel like limbs that they have that are healthy are not their

own and they want them off. Yeah. Yeah, no, I've I've heard of such a thing as well, and that that raises questions like if you were to open this up, Uh, is that ethical if people who might have um something that that other folks would identify as a disorder, Whether you want to call it that or not, I'm sure there are many people who would say that is a disorder, right, that's fair enough to say. Would it be fair to open up the doors for those people to go in

and have these elective amputations? Or would that be unethical if the medical community said no, this needs to be treated as a form of psychological disorder. You know that there are a lot of there are a lot of tricky questions, and we don't have the answers for it, mostly because we're our technology is not there yet. But the reason why we have these conversations is that technology is going to continue to advance and we will one day be at that point. So having the conversation early

is a lot better than having it after the fact. Definitely. Ways, So, guys, this is a good time to remind you. If you are interested in these sort of topics, please go to our website f w Thinking dot com and let us know.

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