Babies in Space? That's Heavy. (Part 2)

I'm Lauren foc Obon, and I'm Joe McCormick. And if you were listening to our last episode, you realize that we were talking about space babbies, making babies in space, Babies in spaceace, Yes, with the fact that, uh, I mean, if we're going to space, we're gonna have to make new humans there sometime. Yeah, barring some form of immortality, we will definitely in order to continue the human species

need to make more babies. And as it stands, there are some big challenges in the way, some some risks out there, and we aren't completely aware of all the consequences those risks may have. Right, So we wanted to talk about what are some of the challenges we're facing in terms of making babies in space and how might

we overcome them. Last time, we talked about radiation. There's lots of radiation in space, both of a different nature than the radiation we usually encounter here on Earth, and lots of people have suggested that this poses a risk to pregnancy in space, suggested that probably with good reason, right. I mean, radiation is one issue, But today we wanted to talk about another thing that we really are just starting to understand when it comes to its effects on organisms.

I'm talking about microgravity. Yeah, so what happens when you take a pregnant animal and put it in space? Much freaks out? Well I imagine, yeah, it does freak out, But what happens to its health and the health of its children. So we have a little bit of information about this, but not not a wealth of information, right because we don't have any examples of mammals conceiving or giving birth in space. We have some other animals that have conceived in space. Will have a lovely inspirational story

about a cockroach later on in this podcast. But jelly fish. Don't forget about the jelly fish. I'd like to call them jellies rather than jellyfish because a friend of mine works at the Georgia Aquarium and would get on my case if I said anything else. Gosh, you should see what happens when I call starfish. That's and I'm not talking about starfish. Starfish, I'm done. When I call jelly starfish,

he gets really mad. But anyway, Yeah, we don't have a lot of information about what micro gravity's effect would be for uh, for especially for for humans, I mean humans having a baby in space. We don't really know. We're starting to study it, and it looks like micro gravity could have some pretty uh some pretty extensive effects on some serious and potentially completely unexpected. Yeah. Yeah, so, uh, there is evidence that you can subject pregnant animals to

space and they can still give birth and all and do. Yeah, it can happen. The question is what are the total effects and what causes these effects? And it it can be really tricky to to even come to those conclusions, right because you have to take into consideration a lot of variables, some of which may not have anything to do with the animal being in microgravity. You know, there are a lot of genetic markers that you have to

take into consideration. This is why it's really complicated whenever you look at any study that deals with development in this case, because there's so many things going on that narrowing it down to saying micro gravity causes this can be tricky. Although there's certainly some experiments that we'll talk about that seemed to have some pretty dramatic results. Yeah, Like, for example, there's one that we that you cited. I think you found the study, Joe, about a study where

they used they didn't actually send UH cells up into space. UH, they used a device to simulate micro gravity in UH doing in vitro fertilization for UM mouse eggs, right, And the idea was to find out what would the effects of micro gravity be on that and in fact, and in this case, we're talking about a three D clino stat as the device. Now, what a clono stat does

is it rotates along at least one axis. Three D would rotate on multiple axes, but rotate on at least one access, so that gravity would equally affect all parts of whatever it is you're testing. The idea being that it all cancels out in the end. So for example, I saw a lot of experiments that they essentially used a set in hand on a clock because usually it's like one revolution per minute for these experiments, so second out and the clock is that's exactly what you want.

And they would UM a fix seeds to some sort of UM substance that would allow them to grow, you know, some sort of soil substitute attached to the second hand, and the idea being that because it's rotating around and all different sides of the seed are being exposed to gravity equally, it's the same as micro gravity. So you've gotta understand that we're simulating it in this case. It's

not true micro gravity. It's because it's tricky to actually get time aboard any kind of scientific study that's going up into space that that their time is really precious. But hey, if you want to subsidize your trip to space, you might want to see if there are any scientific organizations that will pay you to conduct these experiments while

you're up there. Yeah. Yeah. One of the tricky things is that if you are to harvest egg cells, they are only viable for a short time after you've harvested them, right, I mean, you can free sperm cells for a really long time, but egg cells for mice, you know, you you pretty much need to use them quickly in order

for them to have a chance of producing. So if you know, being able to harvest those egg cells and then immediately get them aboard of spacecraft, that immediately can launch, which, by the way, then exerts hyper gravity on everything because potentially solutions right. Well, but at any rate, you don't really know what the effect on the cells was at that point. You could say, though, was it the hyper gravity that caused this effect or the microgravity later on

that caused this effect. But in other words, it's just really hard to get the cells you need up into space long enough to look at the effects of micro gravity. I mean, you could do a parabolic arc flight on a plane, but that doesn't really last long enough to perform the experiments that you want to do. You're talking about like nineties seconds of weightlessness. It's not enough for you to be a boll to really have any meaningful data. So that's why they used the clinistat here on Earth

to kind of simulate micro gravity. Now, in that case, when they did this experiment, the scientists discovered that the fertilized eggs that developed into embryos and then eventually developed into live offspring like the mice that were born, were fine. They they took the fertilized eggs and they implanted them into mice that carried the live offspring and then gave birth. However, it was a much lower rate of live offspring than

the control group. So, and they discovered that the longer the cells remained in microgravity, the less viable they would become. So you'd see something like a sevent live birth success rate compared to the control groups, uh somewhere around like so, uh, that suggests that at least for mice, and at least in the simulated micro gravity, there could be some issues with embryos developing. Yeah, yeah, with the ability to get pregnant.

Yea More recently, just last year, there were a bunch of articles coming out trying to link this recent paper from the University of Montreal research team to the possible effects of micro gravity on humans. Now, what this study

was about was plants. Actually, unless you know some some certain humans that I know, don't tend to really be equivalent to people, right, okay, uh yeah, So it was referred to as cell wall assimily and intracellular trafficking, and plant cells are directly affected by changes in the magnitude of gravitational acceleration. So in a lot of popular reporting, um, basically people cited this study which found that different gravitational effects affected the plants, not just on a macro level,

but on a cellular level. So the ability of the plants to do this pro just called intracellular transports, sort of taking materials through the cells, sort of the traffic flow at the cellular level of materials that was disrupted by changes in gravity. And obviously in any early organic development, that would be incredibly important. Yeah, it would, h And there is some parallel because some of these same intracellular

transport processes happen in humans. Sure, I mean, stuff like like proteins have to get in between different cells, stuff like that. And there was evidence in one bit of research about fruit flies reproducing a microgravity that a protein transfer process was being affected. But we'll talk about that in just a couple of minutes. You know what, Lauren, No, no, no, I don't want to wait. I don't want to wait to find out what happened to those fruit flies in space.

I want to hear about it right now, right now, right now. Okay, So there's some form of issue with the way that these cells were being able to exchange proteins. How is that going to affect the fruit fly? I mean, what does that actually mean? It means it will die terribly a fungal infection. WHOA, this got dark fast, Lauren, Yeah, it's funny flies, It's okay. Well, fruit flies, as it

turns out, are really useful for these kind of experiments. Uh. And uh in this case, when we're talking about the proteins that are being exchanged that helped with being able to do things like resist fungal infections. Uh, it's a big deal. They did discover that bacterial infection, that that immune response was fine. Right. The flies were not more susceptible to bacteria, but they were more susceptible to fungus. They had not developed that that defense against them. Right.

And the important thing to note here is that humans and other mammals have really similar immune systems to fruit flies. The one of the Nobel Prizes in two thousand eleven was actually one over the discovery of this. Um. This particular study and not the one about the immune systems, but the one about the fungal infections was done on the Space Shuttle discovery and uh yeah, for for some reason or another. And one of the projection is that

it might have been protein transfer problems. Um. Yeah, that the the immune systems of flies that developed in space were different. Yeah, and also if they were under hyper gravity instead of micro gravity, but asn't they're raised in a centrifuge. Essentially, they was discovered that they had umsted boosted, yeah, resistance to fungal infections and still no affected. Uh, there was no effect on their bacterial resistance. Might you say that they had created a super fly? I I would,

in fact say they created a super fly? Would I know? I would? I am just sad that I didn't say it first. I have a question, Um, so we've talked about how microgravity might affect uh the say a developing fetus, but what about mothers, like a what a pregnant woman? Have any particular risks associated with micro gravity? Well? I

I only know of one. The fact that might inform us on this would is that in nineteen eighty three, the Soviet space program, UH sent up They were like, well, let's see what happens to a pregnant rat in space. So they sent the pregnant rat into space for several days and they're observations and the insaid that the mother seemed to suffer more than the offspring. That basically, the mother gained less weight than you would expect from a from a pregnant rat and had decreases in muscle mass

and liver mass and um hemoglobin. Yeah, I think the muscle mass and I feel like hemoglobin are two common things that happened to two astronauts just when they're up in space not pregnant at all. Um, you certainly are going to lose muscle mass from not uh, not moving, not not using your skeletal structure the way that you would not under the resistance of gravity, and and bone

mass also decreases. Stuff like that. And whether whether or not that would be a significant impact on a pregnant one, and whether or not that would in turn impact the fetus is definitely a thing to think about. Oh sure, it has a huge concern. And obviously, again a pregnant woman undergoing the stresses of both hypergravity assuming that she the conception happened on Earth, and also then micro gravity.

These are now big things to to consider and really hard to test for, you know, just like we were saying with the radiation episode, developing tests that that would allow, Yeah, we'd have to be able to simulate in some way so that we could gain more information and have the best practices but you know it raises lots of ethical issues. Well, let's look at some actual practical examples of animals born or not born, but born or conceived in space. Yeah, okay,

all right, how about how about cockroaches? You mentioned him earlier. Yeah, fantastic. So this cockroach was named Hope, was named uh not as to I don't speak Russian, which translates to hope. And I believe that this cockroaches as far as I know, it's the first animal to have conceived in space that at least has admitted to it. Yeah, they got pregnant in space. So there was a twelve day space mission September of two thousand seven, conducted aboard a Russian satellite

by the Institute of Biomedical Problems. I love that the Institute of Biomedical Problems. They don't have solutions. Hope conceived a brood of thirty three little cockroach babies, which hatched later after they returned to Earth. So how do the space conceived baby cockroaches hold up? Well? So there was first an early report in October of two thousand and seven in Novosti, uh, the Russian newspaper, and it said

that they were eating and drinking and seemed healthy. But the researchers noticed an accelerated darkening of the carapace UH, which usually remains translucent longer in juveniles. And then there was a subsequent report in January two thousand and eight, again from Novosti, which quoted the lead researcher here dmitri ac action at the auction, and so here is what

was reported, accelerated body and limb growth. UH. The ones conceived in space could crawl faster than the average cockroach, and they were quote much more energetic and resilient than the others. So this is terrifying, right. So okay, so let me get this straight. Micro gravity makes fruit flies vulnerable to fungus, but turns cockroaches into super cockroaches, according to this report. I don't know the thirty three little baby cockroaches are the result of this mad science experiment. Doom,

that's gonna do. The question is does the line in there? Yeah, what happens with the next generation? Joe? Are you telling me that there are super duper cockroaches running around Russia? No? I? Okay, So hopes children number one not sterile from the procedure. So conceived in space fertile on Earth. So so she she's a grandmother, right, So it's a batch of thirty

plus little critters of Hope's grandchildren. But I haven't read any reports of them carrying over the super duper traits that were initially reported, And I have to admit, for some reason, I just feel a little bit skeptical about the super cockroaches. But you know, maybe yeah, Actually the reports I read specifically said that the the grand children of Hope we're indistinguishable from our ordinary, boring earth cockroaches

that continue to give me the hebes and the g bs. Well, there's there's, of course a difference between genetic effects that happened to a person's somatic cells, their body cells, and the genetic effects of something that happens to their reproductive cells. Well, maybe we'll see that it's skips a generation and the great great grandchildren will end up towering over Kiev. Well their cockroaches. So I'm sure there's been several generations since then.

I'm not sure what happened to them. Terrifying Uh, though, it's worth stating that this is not the same as a mammal giving conceiving in space and then having grandchildren about not even for lawyers. You know, these are these are cockroaches. They're not mammals, and and that really doesn't matter. Like cockroaches are known to be fairly resistant to radiation. That's something we talked about in the last episode, was

the risk that radiation poses. And I imagine while micro gravity obviously is a big factor here, radiation was probably the main risk for the cockroaches giving birth to sterile children. But but so we know that the roaches got past it, alright. So, uh so we've talked about the cockroaches. Do we have any other examples of critters what we're either born or conceived in space? Well, we mentioned not jelly fish, but jellies, jellies jon jellies Aurelia arita, so not conceived but born

in space. Maybe not born born ishes as much as jellies are born at all. They're they're they're kind of polyps and then they sort of yeah, they basically the polyps separates into what's called f array, which are like larvae. Uh and and these were timed before and after launch. So there's a study published in chronicling what happened here. Uh, jellies spent nine days aboard the Space Shuttle during their fray and polyp stages, and then they returned to Earth.

Now what's interesting here is that jellyfish have gravisceptors, these organs that receive fields of gravity so that they can tell which way is up underwater, right, And they're these little hairy pockets containing calcium sulfate crystals, and that helps them orient their bodies with respect to Earth's gravity. That that would become. Anyone who's ever been underwater and then gotten disoriented knows how how crazy, confusing and scary that is.

In humans. It's an inner ear fluid issue, I think. Yeah, yeah, So you know, having this kind of oregon is very important for animals that need to be able to maintain their orientation at any given time under the water or anywhere. Right. For jellies, under the water is pretty much where you want to be. Yeah, that are in space or in Jonathan's bed. Oh please, no, no more jellies in bed. My wife has already yelled at me for peanut butter in bed. I don't. I don't need jellies in there too. Okay.

So the study found that the jellies that developed in space were quote morphologically very similar to the ones from Earth. So basically you look at them, you don't see a big difference. Um, they seem pretty healthy. But what were observed were quote pulsing abnormalities. So the ones that were born in space, and that just means you see like a jellyfish pulse through the watch, like the contraction movement that propels it. So they moved, meant their their mechanism

for movement had changed. Yeah, the pulsing abnormalities were found in about eighteen point three per cent of the space developed larvae, whereas the one the controls back on Earth it was just two. So it was definitely observed that the ones that were sort of born ish if you call that born and whatever in space had troubles with orientation and with their their gravity organs. Interesting. So yeah, I mean that now obviously that would be different for

humans than jellies. I mean, oh yes, But but the the implication is that when you have such a different environment than the one that we've evolved to uh interact with on on, you know, in irregular lives, uh, the the outcomes can be unpredictable. Right, we don't necessarily know

what's going to happen. I mean, you know, if if we are evolved so that we can deal with a certain amount of radiation and a certain amount of gravity, then when you take us out of that that scenario and then uh, you know, try to reproduce, there could be some some big issues. And that's really what this is all about is, you know, how do we how do we find out what those are, how do we address them, how do we prevent them? In fact, that's what we should really talk about. How do we prevent

any problems from micro gravity possibly interfering with our reproductive cycle? Well, we could just go to a planet with accelerated gravity, give birth to all children there, and then they'd all be superhumans, right so right, yeah, so crypton type thing right right with a different color sun so that we all get we have to be able to absorb that energy and then science we can fly through some mechanism that has never been adequately explained. I like this idea.

Let's not even discuss anything. Okay, Well, we gotta we kind of have to just we have to be we have to be thorough well. I mean, of course, the other one would be a big one for humans in space in general, which is artificial gravity. Yeah, they have that on all of those fancy Star Trek programs. Basically everything else that happens in space and sci fi. Ever, you just gotta make sure you flip the switch, and as long as the switches on, you're good to go.

How would you actually create artificial gravity? Well, we won't go into too much detail because we'll probably do a whole episode about this in the future. Yeah, there's there's ways that you can simulate gravity, although there are questions

about how effective that would be. So essentially creating the whole centripical force and centrifical effect by rotating whatever spacecraft you're on along an access so that you can, you know, uh, create an artificial kind of gravity that way, but there's some debate about how effective that would be. Then there's always the well, all we have to do is figure out what the heck gravitons are and then harness them to our will, and we're fine, Oh yeah, that sounds easy. Perfect.

Let's just first let's prove this hypothetical thing exists, and then second we have to find a way of manipulating it, and then it's all ray. But yeah, I mean, these are these are real problems. I love the idea that in the future we have like a planet set aside that's kind of like those those motels where you rent by the hour. That's just where you go when it's time. Yeah, for babies. That's that's the space baby motel. Is that one planet that's gonna that plant is going to have

a great reputation. Well, the joke you made actually does raise good questions because a lot of what's still to be determined is but these two major risk factors, radiation and microgravity, we don't know exactly the duration and the stage of development where these are most important. So like it may be that there are only certain times when it's really important to avoid these things, and that other times, you know that a fetus might be just as resilient.

You don't know yet, like with with the kind of radiation that we are exposed to on Earth, knowing that the first trimester is really where it gets in to kind of scary danger territory, but during the second and third you're more or less okay. Yeah, who knows. What if we were to find out that you can be pregnant in micro gravity as long as you give birth in a gravity environment. I'm not saying that's true. That's just one example of weird things we could find out. Yeah, yeah,

we don't know. I mean, it's it is interesting, especially when you but when we do look at the effects that micro gravity has had on adults out in space, it certainly raises some questions. Things like the fact that you know, muscle mass and and and your bone mass uh deteriorate over time. It makes you wonder how would that develop in a new life form. I mean, these are big questions and we don't have the answers yet.

And like we've been saying, you know, developing a way of addressing these questions ethically is that's that's a big trick, you know, it's it's tough. It's one of those, you know, areas of study that I expect is going to take some time for us to really to really get a handle on. Yeah. The moral the story is, if you're one of those people who really really loves babies and you really really love space, you need to get to

work on artificial gravity and active radiation shielding. Yep. So get back to us because we'd be really interested to hear about your work. Definitely, uh. And in fact that that leads me to another another thing I wanted to address. Uh, go to fw thinking dot com. It's a great website. No, seriously, should go. It's actually that's where all of our podcasts are, It's where our blog posts are, is where videos are. We talk about a lot of stuff in a lot

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