¶ Intro / Opening
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¶ Amy Peck introduces Salla Eckhardt, Director of Transformation Services at Microsoft.
hi, everyone. Welcome to the future construct podcast. I'm your host a Peck . This is a very special episode. This is our one year anniversary and it is extra special because our guest today is Sal Athar for Microsoft, who was our very first guest. You were the first person who said yes and said, I'm coming on and you launched a , and so I am forever grateful for that. Welcome. So
Thank you so much, Amy and happy birthday, the future construct. Uh , it , it's amazing to be back. Uh, I , I can never say no to good opportunities like this. You guys are amazing and it's been truly a pleasure to listen to the podcast in the past year. Amazing guests .
Thanks so much. So let's talk about, you know, what, how has it been over the last year, year and a half? I mean, we've all had cha different kinds of challenges working from homes, sort of going back to work. How has it been for you?
Oh , it it's been like a , uh , interesting year , uh , some goods , some bad . Uh , and , uh , when thinking about , uh , working from home scenario , uh , it's not a secret that people know that I'm very career oriented and I have big dreams , uh , to become the CSU level executive someday . Um , so working from the woods and dealing with the very choppy internet and sometimes power outages that definitely put a flavor into how to actually do my work.
Uh , and then , um, like people probably noticed that, that the background is different now. So I'm back in Seattle. Uh , and Mike had the Bengal that everyone got to see on videos. She died of bone cancer this August. So there was that big loss . Um, so now is a matter of readjusting to , uh , city life , uh , without my cat companion and , uh , and seeing where we go and, and continue forward with the big dreams that I have.
Well, that's good. And , and I'm so sad to hear that, however, we do still have that little bit of video, so she use forever memorialized with us here on the future construct. So she'll always have a place in her hearts.
Excellent. Thank you.
¶ In terms of current trends, how are you thinking about all of this hype around the metaverse and digital twins?
So let you know , let's talk about some of the trends . I mean, I , I , I hate to say the meta word , uh , and the metaverse , and I , I do think we're in the throes of a , a bit of a hype cycle and, you know, relative to the built environment, you know, we look at digital twins , uh , that, you know, could very easily be kind of turned into a type of metaverse that we can actually go in and experience. Uh , I think there's some great utility.
Uh , I , I haven't quite figured out how yet that translates into maybe sort of a consumer realm. Um , but it's easy to see how it sort of wires into smart cities, but how are you thinking about this next evolution and, and all of this hype around the metaverse and digital twins?
Well , I'm personally very excited about it. And , um, before I even learned the term meta words , I was already talking about simulated reality , uh , and that must have , uh , popped up in some of the, the discussions that I've had. Um, so I , I think that that's a great opportunity.
And especially when thinking that how might the build environment actually deliver the, the S um , digital building life cycle is one route to take , uh , and think about how do we actually construct the digital truth of , of something that might or might not , uh , physically exist as well.
But then when thinking about the end users of the S um, how people can maybe come out from their shells in the digital environment, if they're they're introverted when they're in , in the , the social environment physically, but then they come out as more extroverted when they are having the same experience in fully digital format. Um, I'm super excited about seeing, like what kind of , uh , personalities I get to meet when people don't have to worry about , um, their physical being.
Yeah, I think it's, it's , I think it is , it is a tremendous opportunity. And I think, you know, I've been working in, you know, both VR and AR for a long time and a lot of behavioral science and behavioral health , uh, and , and being able to overcome different kinds of, and social challenges , um , in these environments , uh , it can be really, really therapeutic , um, from the digital twin standpoint.
Do , do you see, I mean, it makes so much sense anecdotally, but it seems to be hard in practice, you know, you mentioned end to end kind of, you know, building management and, and building life cycle . There are gaps where we're, we're not really leveraging the technology through the entire process. Why do you think that is? And, and how can we change that, where this just becomes you , you're basically building your Asbuilt as you're building the building. How do we get there?
Excellent question. Um , a tested challenge of how traditional the , the built environment industry wants to remain.
Uh , there's nothing wrong with being proud with , with being traditional, but if it becomes an anchor and it becomes something that is holding us back from doing things differently and doing things better then is a , a moment for a serious reevaluation and , and thinking, how do we actually plan to deliver something that has never existed before , uh , and really re-engineering the processes and the roles of people who are creating that digital truth.
Um, um , so it's basically a huge change management problem from the people side. People already have learned how to deliver their daily tasks and their daily business processes and , and people don't really , really love change. Uh , but that's what S actually requires from us that we really have , have to , uh , think deeply that what is our role , uh , what are we , uh , aiming to deliver and what is the outcome that we are all aiming for?
And it , it might be that it needs to be delivered in pieces rather than something that is a one big entity and , and submitting that, but it's something that we can continuously construct digitally , uh , and let everyone on participate and edit what we are created .
¶ How do we close the gap between the future vision of how we can do everything in a different and better way, from where we are right now?
I lo I love that. And I'm, I'm all for, especially this sort of the concept of , of the open metaverse , there's an organization called the open metaverse and I urge people to take a look.
Um , so when you think about , uh , you know, the, the, again, this sort of end to end strategy and, and where we are a , you mentioned change ma change management , uh , you know, what , what are some of the steps, because I think there's sort of this future vision piece that this, this simulation gives us, right. So we can actually rethink how we do everything, but then there's the practical steps. And I even remember in our very first conversation, you said something that was so smart.
It's like, you know, you have to be where people live like today. You can't give them this sort of future vision, just all at once. You need to step them into it. How do we close that gap between this future vision of how we can do everything in a , in a, you know , different and better way , uh , from where we are right now?
Um, there's the , how do we tell the story that what's in it for individuals , um, and how do we , uh , make the middles the better option compared to how things are managed or, or executed right now, and really listening to what people expect from the middle worst , uh , what their fears are.
And , um, having that open conversation overall, thinking about the past digital transformations and, and , uh , how they were , uh , ran through , uh , there wasn't necessarily enough discussion with people and, and hearing what they think about the solutions, what their needs of what their fears are, what do they want to , uh , deliver for the entity , uh , and really , um , making them the owners of their piece in the puzzle rather than excluding them and saying that we'll take it from here.
Um, and that's the difficult part cuz , uh , who wants to have additional work on their plate . Uh , I'm one of them , but , uh , that's how I personally prefer things. But then how do we get the masses of people excited about something that they have never experienced before ?
Uh , they are the pioneers in the industry as they start experiencing , uh , new digital environments , uh , and then become the builders that, that don't necessarily know how to use the current tools, but in the future, the tools might be something that , that are more intuitive and, and more like , um , playing with Lego plots , uh , who knows what the future will bring, but , uh , I'm, I'm truly hopeful that people will see as and opportunity for them to be the creators rather than only the
consumers.
And then how are you thinking about in your day to day ? Um , because it , it feels like the, you know, the metaverse just dropped out of the sky, which it did not it's, you know, it , you could argue that it's really just the 3d in , and , and we've been engaging in a version of the metaverse for many years. Um, but now it seems to be front and center. And, and so is it something that has impacted your day to day ?
Is it something you're hearing kind of murmurings, you know, through the organization?
Uh , it is definitely something that Microsoft is looking into and , and since we are the real state organization managing , uh , the , the portfolio that Microsoft owns and, and occupies , um, it is definitely something that is in my radar , uh , in the center of innovation. And , um , now that we have our BIM program running , uh , we are delivering our own digital twins, et cetera . Metas is already , um , in, in our radar.
And definitely we were looking into what kind of bits and pieces do we want to integrate into it?
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And please let them know that feature construct in BIM design sent you and we are back with solid Eckhart. So let's talk about, you know, I think you're also a big believer in , and , and you take , you look at really all of the emerging technologies. Are there some, you know , new technologies or combinations of technologies that you're particularly excited about or that you you're studying?
Um, one , um , kind of a , a scope that I'm super excited about is that visual data and how can we , uh , start manag the build environment , using more visual data than just the traditional database data , uh , that looks like charts and, and people have to really think deeply what are they extracting from that? And so anything that is visual data that enables us to have a glimpse of something that we are supposed make an educated decision on.
Um, that's what, what really intrigues me that, how do we make data more consumable for people and ensure that what we are communicating or what is communicated to us is something that we all understand the same way. Uh , and especially , um , when thinking about how the , the environment in the is now shifting more from being just local to being global , um , that we are going to be dealing with lots of different cultures and lots of different people who have different languages, et cetera .
So overall I'm , I'm super excited about visual data management.
¶ We have this opportunity of actually being able to work with data in 3D environments from the inside out. And I don't think we've quite cracked what that visual language looks like. We're still bringing in these 2D constructs into 3D. Is this something that you've looked at, or have you seen anyone really pushing the envelope in terms of how we can start to parse this data and make completely new and broader inferences?
Yeah . So I actually was just talking with, with one of your colleagues, Mike PE , about this exact topic and, you know, what, what is the visual language of, of, you know, of data and, and this opportunity of, of actually being able to work with data , uh , in 3d environments from the inside out. And I don't think we've quite cracked what that visual language looks like. We're still bringing in these , uh , 2d constructs into 3d.
And is this something that you've looked at, or have you seen , uh , you know, anyone really pushing the envelope in terms of how we can start to parse this data and, and make, you know, completely new and, and broader inferences?
Yeah. Um, definitely there are excellent , um, examples from what my previous home country Finland , um, there is a , a company called zone , uh , that has been creating digital twins and , and digital experiences for , um , years already.
And then when thinking about the , the digital twin consortium , uh , that has a lot of , uh , members that are dealing with exactly what you're describing , uh, so lot of good stuff is happening and it's up to the , the consumers to really start embracing that . What does it mean to consume fully immersive visual data, rather than have the movie experience or the TV experience of , um , looking at things, but not really being fully immersed?
Uh , what , what I'm curious about visual data is that how do we trigger the feelings and the emotions in people that some people call the spidery census , but that's exactly what I want to trigger with visual data in people that how do we extract a feeling or an emotion that might be helping us prevent an issue from becoming a problem.
Uh , and that's something that I haven't really seen , uh , solid , uh , experiences, those solutions for , it's still being very, very much something that you can look at , but you can't really immerse in .
¶ Buildings are the anchors of cities and then the built environment in digital twins are really going to be the anchor for smart cities. What does that kind of workflow look like?
I love , I love that explanation. And, you know, when we start to think about, you know, the , the built environments, if you look at, you know, buildings are the anchors of, of cities and, and then the built environment in digital twins are really going to be the anchor for smart cities. And , and , you know , what , what does that kind of workflow look like?
I mean, we're still , we're still working on, you know, every building becoming a smart building, which is a process , uh , hopefully we'll start to have standards where every building built then has a new standard , uh , process where they're essentially building the, you know, again, that as built as it's being built.
Uh , but then that next step of really wiring it into smart cities and cities in a way that enables what exactly what you're talking about human experience, because we don't hear a lot of people talking about it, it's sort of this enabling technology, but it's not about the human experience. And so, you know, I , I , I I'd love to hear your opinion on that more cause I like what you just said was so eloquent.
Um, yeah , smart cities is , that's what , um, a lot of different regions and, and markets and, and cities have been aiming for decades already, but , um, the, the way of how do we actually create that reliable as built and how do we capture things so that it doesn't , uh , break the bank to do, or it doesn't take years to deliver? That's a , uh , that's the tough not to crack that .
How do we , uh , embrace a technology that is very easy to use is , uh , data secure , uh , doesn't violate privacy, et cetera . So there are a lot of , uh , questions in terms of how do we actually do the , the capturing to then enable those amazing end user experiences? Um, I , I don't, I guess I don't have a , a good like solution for it, but , um, I'm open to entertain the idea that the , how might we actually do it, what would be the technologies that people are comfortable with?
Uh , and how do we actually include the citizens into creating their own smart cities that it's not only up to the government to do?
Yeah, I agree. And there , I think there's sort of a crowdsource component. We sort of think about the AR cloud, where we have all these sensors, we're going to have autonomous vehicles that are gonna constantly be scanning using LIDAR and that data that gets discarded because it, you know, already knows it's not looking for that, right . It's looking for the anomaly, but the data that it's not using is valuable and kind of truing up the , uh, you , the AR cloud.
But again, that infrastructure and cities have to agree on the standards of, of managing that data and handling that data and where it comes from. And of course our smartphones can start to be, you know, recording everything and everywhere, but again, that's that , that privacy concern and, you know, how , how do we manage that? Uh , I think these are all tough questions.
Maybe there are no answers to it, but, you know, I , I , I'd love to hear more about how yours thinking about that and, and, you know, are there other technologies that you think we need to bring into play? Like maybe, maybe blockchain and how, how would that kind of fit into the equation?
Yeah, that might be one. And then , um, one that , um , I haven't really had my hands on yet is , uh , haptics and , and how there is opportunity to really , uh , engage the end users more into a , that creation of the smart city or the , the metaverse et cetera .
How can we , uh , bring technology onto our own skin to really , uh , make it more personable for us , uh , and making it that people feel like they actually participating in the creation process rather than just being the , the end users that get what is delivered for them.
Um, so I guess once I get my hands on haptics and I get to see what that technology delivers, and, and once I see more and more variable comp , um , wearable electronics come , uh , and see the more of the, of , um , smart rings and smart wearables with the , the build environment then , um, I guess , uh , we can continue innovating from there, but , um , that's what I'm bringing for.
That's something that , uh , I could put on and , and start creating the smart environment with something that I'm in control of.
I love that. And I think that there's also a piece of it that that is a new kind of social media and sharing paradigm, where you actually have these experiences, you, you record them in 3d, and then you can sort of anchor them. You can have them spatially anchored, and then it could be triggered , triggered by a geofence if in your, you know, anyone in your circle could then choose to, to perhaps see those experience. So I think it opens up a lot of possibilities.
And again, I think it's way , it , it's a way that maybe people aren't thinking about smart cities and smart buildings, because it's, it has much more of kind of a social and sort of consumer impact and we're still struggling with, right . How do we get the utility in ?
Exactly, exactly. And, and overall , um, it feels like today it is been more about creating the services for the end users rather than including the end users and creating the services for themselves. So I'm , I'm really curious about the, the piece in the puzzle with the end user in their own end user experience.
And how do we get people understand that they, they can have the expectations of what the smart city or a smart campus might look like and feel like, but not have the expectation that everything is perfected for them without any input from themselves. So , um , I'm , I'm really hopeful with the industry 5.0 , coming that, how do we help end users , uh , mass customize their own experiences and, and just create the platforms that people can then , uh , play in .
And I , I love the way you think about the future and innovation. Uh , so I'd love a peek and kind of just your day to day , like, what does your day look like? Like how do you attack? I mean, there's so much that you have to be aware of and on top of, and, and have an opinion about and report on. So what is a , what is a day in the life of, of so Eckhart look like, oh ,
It's a , it , it is a lot of, it's usually like 14 meetings per day. So it is a lot of , uh , interaction with people and learning from them as much as I can. Uh , and I'm so lucky that I get to kind of hear stories and , and engage in multiple different topics during the , the same day. So it might be that now we are talking about metaverse , the next meeting might be about building information models. A third meeting might be something that is related to end user experiences.
Um, my days are very, very mixed and , and very rich and the content that I get to experience and talk about with people. And, and I'm, I'm surrounded with like super smart people. So as , uh , every day, it is super good for me.
¶ If you could project yourself, you're 20, 25 years into the future, and you could have any kind of gadget or service or just something that would make your life better or make you personally happy, what would it be and what would it do?
I love that. I love that. So , um, I'm gonna ask you the question. I asked it to you a year ago, maybe it's changed , uh, you know, if you could project yourself 20, 25 years in the future, and you could bring with you any product or service that would just make you personally happy.
I , I would really want to create the , the digital twin of myself and insert it into a digital, like S of my own like dream world and , and see what , what I had come up with. Uh , so I , it would be like, my choice now would be my own array .
I love that. I think you could probably do that in the next year. yeah. I don't even think you have to wait 20 years. Um , but I, but I absolutely believe without a shadow of a doubt that you are going to achieve all of your goals, including being on the C-suite. And maybe if you're willing to come back and make this an annual event with us , uh, next year, maybe that'll be the announcement.
I hope so. Oh , thank you so much. And let's, let's lock it in. All right .
Let's do it . Thanks so much . Thank
You .