¶ Intro / Opening
>> Loren: Hello and welcome to the Future Christian podcast, your source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in the 21st century. At the Future Christian podcast, we talk to pastors, authors, and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical wisdom to help you and your community of faith walk boldly into the future.
Whether you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of your faith community, this podcast is designed to challenge, inspire, and equip you with the tools you need for impactful ministry. And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode. Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. Today, Loren Richmond Junior welcomes Yolanda
Solomon to the show. Yolanda M. Um Solomon is the director of discipleship at Epiphany Church in Brooklyn, New York, where she teaches and creates discipleship curriculum and resources. She has also worked in campus ministry at Columbia University in New York, where she was blessed to serve undergraduate graduate students for seven years. Yolanda is a disciple of Christ, a Brooklyn native, and a, uh, lifelong Knicks fan, which richly fuels her prayer life. She lives in Brooklyn with her family.
One housekeeping detail before our conversation begins, please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave a review, and share future Christian with a friend. Your engagement helps to ensure that these important conversations about navigating and resourcing the future of the church continue and reach more people. All right, welcome to the Future Christian podcast. This is Loren Richmond junior, and today I'm pleased to be joined by Yolanda Solomon. So, thank you so much for being here.
>> Yolanda Solomon: Thank you, Loren. It's my pleasure. >> Loren: What, uh, else would you like our listeners to know about you today? >> Yolanda Solomon: Well, I am, uh, a mom of two. I am married to my wonderful husband of 15 years. I am a Brooklyn native, born and raised in Brooklyn, still here in Brooklyn, New York. Um, I am a proud Knicks fan, which, as I
say, richly fuels my prayer life. And I have the pleasure of serving as a director of discipleship at a local church here in Brooklyn called Epiphany Church. >> Loren: Okay, well, you mentioned it, so I told you we're going to talk some Knicks basketball, so we're going to bore out our listeners here. Um, so I mentioned this. I'm in the Denver area, so I really, like, have become a Nuggets fan. Really disappointed by the way the season ended for us.
Um, so, I mean, obviously the Knicks and Nuggets have some tension with the whole Carmelo situation. Um, curious. Ah, like, what's your take on Carmelo? Because us in Denver, we're kind of burned by his whole, like, spurning us in Denver. >> Yolanda Solomon: Well, I honestly want to say that I don't
¶ Navigating Church Growth and Cultural Dynamics
really feel that the beef was with the nuggets, more so than the coach. And I can't remember his name. Um. >> Loren: Oh, Carl. Yeah, Carl. George Carl. >> Yolanda Solomon: Because Carmelo Anthony, like, refers to him as a snake. He'll even put, like, little snake emojis, because it wasn't just Carmelo Jr. Smith, also a former nugget. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Yolanda Solomon: Martin. Right. And so none of those guys have anything nice
to say about mister Carl. And so I just feel like, you know, uh, there were two different philosophies. And, you know, George Carl is still talking about Carmelo all these years later, and so I have nothing but love for Carmelo. If you actually look behind me, this is actually a birthday, uh, present my husband got from years ago. This was Carmelo's 62 point game, uh, back in 2014, uh, of January, uh, against the Charlotte Bobcats, which are not even the bobcats anymore. And so, you
know, how can you not love mello as a Knicks fan? For us, we love him. He gave us some of his best years. I'll never forget the easter Sunday game, uh, against the bulls. Christ Rose. And the knicks won. It's like you can't get any better than that. But I like Denver. I like what y'all are doing over there. And you guys are champions. Like, nobody feels bad for you. You guys have a ring, you
know, not the greatest season this year. Shorter ending. Yeah, I'm sure you would have hoped, but you guys are champions, so we're still waiting on that. >> Loren: Yeah. So, obviously, it's been a few years, and, uh, you can probably remember as well as I can the what, the 94 and 99. Do I have those years? Right? Yeah. Yeah. The 99 season was especially fun for me. The Knicks run there. I, of course, remember the whole, um, the LJ versus the pacers. That shot.
>> Yolanda Solomon: Yeah. >> Loren: Going crazy. Um, there were some hard times in the two thousands, right? >> Yolanda Solomon: They were rough. They were lean years, Loren. Lean years. >> Loren: And I really kind of drifted away from fall. Um, Knicks. Theirs is so bad for so long. >> Yolanda Solomon: Yeah, you were right. You were right. You probably had better things to do with your life than watch the Knicks. Um, I did not.
I was there through the, you know, barnyani and, I mean, Eddie Curry and, you know, Fisdale. I mean, it just was. It was awful. But you know what? God is the God of a turnaround. God has turned my knicks around. And so we are in milk and honey these days. >> Loren: So what do you think about, I mean, Jalen. Jalen Brunson is obviously a player. Um, from.
From an outside perspective, like, I didn't really expect them to go as far as they did this year just because beyond Jalen, I don't think they have a lot. >> Yolanda Solomon: Um, yeah, that's that outside perspective, Loren. >> Loren: Okay. >> Yolanda Solomon: We knew they were going far, and honestly, I think we would have been in the Eastern Conference finals had it not been for the injuries. We literally, by the time we were in game seven against the Pacers, we didn't have
one starter left. Mitch Robinson is gone. Brunson is gone. Randall is gone. OG and Obi is gone. Even Bogdanovich are. Our pickup is gone. I mean, so, literally, none of the starters that we started this season with were healthy by the time we got to the Pacers. And as the Pacers saw, you know, with a Halliburton with a torn hammy. >> Loren: Right. >> Yolanda Solomon: Not so easy to beat teams when your best players are injured. So, you know, there you have it. Uh,
I'm excited. I am proud. I am already ready for next season because I think a healthy Knicks team is a scary Knicks team. >> Loren: So. Julian Randall. Julius. Right. Julius Randall. Uh, we're getting real inside, inside baseball, or as they say, inside basketball here. So I apologize for our listeners here. I heard some commentary thinking Nick should let him go because he's a. He's a ball stopper. And you want to keep him.
>> Yolanda Solomon: No, I don't know any nick fans that want to get rid of random. >> Loren: Okay. >> Yolanda Solomon: We're all very, very upset. Number one. Cause he's having one of his best seasons this season when he got hurt by a certain Miami, uh, heat rookie who will remain nameless. Um, yeah, Julius Randle is a hardworking guy. He's. You know, I think a lot of people forget that these guys are young men.
>> Loren: Yeah. >> Yolanda Solomon: You know, and my husband even reminded me, like, how would you play. How would you feel playing basketball, having your second child during a pandemic? Like, I remember, like, even the season before last, like, I think his wife had just given birth, and it's like, the middle of COVID and there's all these, like, rules and regulations and, like, life is tough for new dads when you're not a professional basketball
player. But, like, add on top of that, like, being a professional basketball player, your teammates are getting sick left and right, and you're going home to an. A newborn baby. And I was like, oh, my gosh. And I think that's made me give Julius Randall a bit more grace, like, reminding myself that he. He is a man in his mid twenties, trying to figure it out. New dad. But I read an article about, like, the power of
meditation. Like, I don't know if you noticed, he'd been, like, meditating on the sidelines with one of the interesting assistant coaches. And that's what calmed him down. Cause he was crazy. He was losing his mind a couple seasons ago, but he was like Jalen Brunson. Just kind of like, whispers in my ear. He's like the Randall whisperer and meditation, uh, before games. And, um, I'm here for it. I'm hoping that Julius Randall retires in Nick. >> Loren: Yeah, yeah. Well, okay. So
what do you think about next? So, obviously, forgive us listeners here, I will promise to get to some actual religious content here, but got a toxin, basketball. So what do you think? Obviously, here in Denver, we're kind of worried about KCP leaving, uh, contavious Caldwell Pope, because he's just a great three and d guy. Um, like, what's the. What's the perspective for next year? Like, do you all have any key free agents leaving? M potentially.
>> Yolanda Solomon: I mean, I think at the end of the day, the Knicks are focused on keeping, uh, OGN and Obi and Isaiah Hartenstein. Really, that's the only two guys that, you know, really had breakout seasons. Um, I mean, everyone on the Knicks had their best year ever. Like, Dante Devincenzo had his best season. Josh Hart, best season ever. Um, but Isaiah Hartenstein, which I don't think anyone expected. >> Loren: Yeah, he was no good in Denver.
>> Yolanda Solomon: Well, yeah, no, but he was on the Clippers, and he showed promise, and we got him, and he just was supposed to be a serviceable backup. And surprise, surprise, he ended up taking Mitchell Robinson's starting spot, and we're
¶ Spiritual Practices and ’Discipleship as Holy Collaboration’
not letting him go. So I think that's if we can just keep lockdown OGN and Obi, who? I mean, I think we were, like, undefeated in January when we got him. I was very sad to lose quickly in RJDev. Sadness turned to Joy Loren, after those first three or four games, and I was like, huh? We don't ever seem to lose while this guy is playing. Yeah, he seems to be able to defend three players at once. Um, so if we can just keep an and Obi and Hartenstein and bring back
the. Bring the team back, just run it back, I think. Fine. Yeah. >> Loren: Yeah, he's got to figure out Boston. I mean, they're not going anywhere, right? >> Yolanda Solomon: Yeah, they're not going anywhere, but I think. I think we can beat them. Okay. I think we can. I think we can beat just about anybody, because, as you've seen, not, uh. >> Loren: Denver, but that's okay. >> Yolanda Solomon: Jamal Murray. You know, I've used Jamal Murray as an object
lesson to my oldest son. Don't be a Jamal. Be a Jalen. Like, oh, okay, heat packs on the floor. >> Loren: Yeah, that's true. >> Yolanda Solomon: Take responsibility for your mistakes. Um, um, the point guard, I mean, and this is the last thing I'll say about the Knicks. It's been so long since we've had a true point guard. Jalen Brunson is a consummate just human being, and he makes everyone better, and that goes
a long way in the playoffs. That goes a lot like, also, he's playing with his best friends from college, which you just couldn't. I'm sure Disney is going to write a movie about this. As you know, Loren, working with your friends makes a difference. >> Loren: It does. It does. >> Yolanda Solomon: And that kind of chemistry coupled with healthy all stars like Randall and I think OGN and Ombi's a budding all star, I think will be just fine.
>> Loren: All right, we'll leave it there for the basketball talk, since this is not a basketball pod. Um, but good, good stuff here. Uh, anything else you want to say about yourself, your journey of faith? >> Yolanda Solomon: Well, yeah, I mean, I grew up. I mean, I talk about this in the book, so this sort of leans into the book, but I grew up, um, in, uh, Brooklyn, New York,
and I grew up in a predominantly african american church. And, I mean, I know this isn't everyone's testimony, but I really liked church. Growing up, church was like. It felt like home. It felt like family, like, friends of mine from school went to my church. It was a very community church. Um, but as I grew older, um, and met different kinds of christians, I realized that my experience was not everyone's
experience. Um, it was a super black church. And I'll just say, like, al Sharpton preached our Palm Sunday sermon every year. So that's the kind of church it was definitely steeped in the civil rights tradition. Um, you know, we had, like, you know, our sister churches in the neighborhood where, you know, Doctor King would. Had preached in years past. And so I was, you know, on the usherboard and the youth choir and the Girl Scouts and all the youth activities, and I really, really
did love church. But as I talk about in the book, when I went to college, I kind of sort of strayed away, stopped going to church. They really, my friends in college didn't do church, so I stopped going. Um, I did still sing in the gospel choir, though, so christian activities, I always like to sing, but, um, there was a turning point my junior year of college, I talk about this in the book, where I was going to make some
big decisions with regard to my life. And I was in Los Angeles for a semester because I was either going to live there or here. And, um, God sent someone into my life, uh, who I say in the book, she discipled me without even me knowing I was being discipled. I didn't really have that language back then, but what I say is, she really embodied the love and compassion of Christ at a really formative time in my life. And she was real. She wasn't a weirdo. She was just a normal person.
And I knew her from back home. You know, we grew up in the same church in Brooklyn. She was a bit older than me, but, you know, we knew each other. And she kind of took me under her wing and that was life changing for me. And so after, uh, my junior year of college, I came back to New York a changed woman, um, I believe because I encountered Jesus through this person who loved me in really practical ways. You know, I talk about in
the book how she just would. I didn't have. I'm not going to give the whole book away, but she would, like, pick me up, uh, from my apartment where I was staying. And I didn't have a car. I'm from Brooklyn. You don't need a car in Brooklyn. Uh, you need one in LA. And she would, like, drive me to get groceries, which, if you've ever sat in LA traffic, that's a very Christ like thing to do, like voluntarily to cart a belligerent 20 year old college student around. Um, and she just loved
me and she never changed. She was the same person, whether we were just in the car getting groceries or whether we were at a fancy industry party. She's an actress, by the way, pretty successful working actress. Um, and yeah, she never changed, no matter where we were, which also impressed me. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Yolanda Solomon: So something I think in the book is that discipleship is caught and not
taught. And I was watching, I was watching her sneakily model a very christ like life in front of me. >> Loren: Share with you what any spiritual practices that are meaningful for you. >> Yolanda Solomon: Spiritual practices that are meaningful for me. Um, I take a lot of walks, you know. Um, I live in New York City, which is a walkable town. I have two kids, which doesn't make for much time to just pour over scripture
for hours and hours. Um, but I do enjoy waking, uh, up before them and just going for walks, listening to, um, sermons or sometimes listening to just music and walking and praying. I'm a big fan of prayer walk. Um, I need the exercise. Uh, but also it's just calming for my soul. And so, um, that's something that I find really life giving. >> Loren: Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. So I'm looking forward to chatting here about your book.
Yolanda is the author of the book discipleship as holy collaboration, helping others follow Jesus in real life. And I was going to start off this conversation just by the generic question, what inspired the book? But then I thought I wanted to start it this way. I'm kind of of the opinion of late that we live in a culture that tells us we need to be empowered and authenticated, whereas the christian message, at least as I understand it, tells us we need to be saved and discipled.
And I'm just curious, you work in discipleship. Obviously, you've written here about discipleship. >> Yolanda Solomon: Yeah. >> Loren: What do you make of. I'm curious, do you see a similar dynamic and what do you make of it and the dichotomy that church faces in culture? >> Yolanda Solomon: When you say powered and authenticated, you mean like. Like, uh, a self act, like. >> Loren: Right. >> Yolanda Solomon: To, like, self actualization. >> Loren: Right.
>> Yolanda Solomon: Like, could you give me an example? Like, just off top, and then I've got something to say. >> Loren: Yeah. Because, um, I'm thinking about it, like, in another. In a recent conversation I had withdezenhe Dwight shyly, he said something to the effect that the modern age is that we think we can save ourselves. >> Yolanda Solomon: Okay. Okay. Yeah, no,
um. Well, when you say discipled, and the thing about discipleship, and I mentioned this earlier, is that even though I grew up in the church, I never really heard that word. M I heard disciple. Like, be a disciple. We're called to be disciples. We're called to be followers. And, um, when I think about that, to me, and maybe I'm naive, lauren, it just seems so simple that at the end of the day, a disciple is a follower, and our call is to follow
Jesus. Jesus. You know, uh, in the christian tradition, it's God coming to earth, stepping into this very broken world to answer the question that God asks in Genesis, chapter three, verse nine. Right. Where are you? Right? Why aren't you with me? Why are you hiding for me? Why is my presence a problem? And that question, I would say, if you really want to think about the metanarrative of scripture,
is asked all throughout the Old Testament. The prophets, um, you know, judges, uh, the psalms, like God beckoning his creation back to fellowship with him. >> Loren: Ah. >> Yolanda Solomon: And so I believe in Jesus God comes down, condescends to be with us, to say, I'm super serious about answering this question, where are you? Like, you need to be with me. And so, you know what? I'm going to come be with you.
Right? And what does jesus do? He goes around and, you know, pardon, this might sound crass. His shtick is, follow me, follow, uh, me. He goes around telling people, follow me, follow me, follow me. But what does that mean? I take it to mean follow in my footsteps. He's constantly showing us how to live, showing us how to be human, showing us how to love, showing us how to be obedient children. Right? Like, he's the messiah, he's
the son of God, he's the messianic king. And so he's showing us how to lead, but he's also. And giving us a new paradigm for leadership, which is service. But he's also showing us how to be obedient children of God. Uh, like, he's our older brother. I love that Hebrews chapter two refers to Jesus as our older brother because I think that's a metaphor we can grab hold of if you have an older sibling who, like, learns how to ride a bike before you or go to college before you,
or learn how to do something. But Jesus is that older brother who kind of for the path. He's our pioneer in life. He's our pioneer in humanity, and, like, this is how you guys were created to live. Follow in my footsteps as you're empowered by the Holy Spirit. And so what I see, you know, then and now, the call for the modern day disciple, I don't think it's changed, Loren. I think it's follow in the footsteps of Jesus as you are empowered by the
Holy Spirit. That's how I would, uh, you know, describe discipleship. And I think getting off course is why we're in the trouble we are today as the american church. >> Loren: Yeah, thanks for sharing that. Thanks for engaging that with me. So that leads me to another question I was going to ask later, but you mentioned the challenge in the early church, or, excuse me, the challenge we face here in our current context.
And I was thinking about, you're probably familiar, as I am, with the church growth movement, so to speak, from, like, the nineties to the thousand to the two thousands. And as I understand, a lot of that was built off transfer, growth, membership, people leaving one congregation for another. >> Yolanda Solomon: Sure. >> Loren: So there's this really, this kind of expectation of just quick, like, well, we can just start something, and boom, you
know, a new church and we can start with 150. We're 200, 301,000 before we end know it. Um, this influence of startup and tech of ten x growth is so, uh, baked into our thinking oftentimes. Yet as we think about the change in our at least american context, and I think probably north american, where the kind of cultural
Christianity is going away. And this is just what struck me when I was reading your book and you even telling that story again of your discipleship person in college, how much this is a long term effort. There's not going to be immediate, dynamic growth. >> Yolanda Solomon: Sure, sure. Yeah. Um, and again, I just go back to the Bible in the book. I spent a lot of time in the gospels because I think we need to encounter Jesus in order to know how to follow. We
need to know who we're following. And I think a big problem in America is we don't, we don't agree on who Jesus is. First of all. >> Loren: Yeah, not wrong. >> Yolanda Solomon: Some Jesus is this warrior, Caesar, king, who's here to crush my enemies and all, everybody that I hate, God hates. And to worship means to invoke the wrath of God on my enemies. So I spent a lot of time in the gospels because I believe, like, don't believe me, don't take my word for it. Let's look
in the Bible. And so when I look at Jesus, he engages people over a period of time. Now, obviously, Jesus, you know, earthly ministry is three years. Um, with his disciples, you know, he had, he had, obviously, he was younger, he had time. But as we know it, his earthly ministry is three years. But in those three years, Jesus is playing the long game. Jesus actually is spending quite a bit of time telling them, I'm leaving you guys over and over and over again
from mark. If you look in the gospel of Mark, from chapter one until you get to about, uh, chapter 13, he's constantly saying specifically around chapter eight, from between chapter eight to chapter 13, I'm going to be crucified, I'm going to be arrested, I'm going to be beaten, I'm leaving you guys. So here are some instructions. And he is committed to walking these ragtag followers through what it means to have an alternative consciousness, as
Walter Brueggemann calls it. Right? What it means to imagine that another world is possible. What it means to imagine that, like, first century Galilee is not all there is, right? Like being colonized by the Romans and just the way of life that they see it. Like, there's another way of living. Jesus calls it the kingdom of God, right? Where the last are first and where. It doesn't matter who's gonna be at my right or they're arguing who's gonna be vice president, who's gonna be
secretary, coming to your kingdom. And Jesus is like, it's not about power. It's actually about you laying down your life for others the way I'm about to go lay down my life for you. And Jesus tells them this because he knows he's leaving, which presupposes that Jesus knows that this is a lifelong journey. Right? It's not this, like, quick, all right. Jesus is checking off numbers as people are, you know, following him and keeping a tally of metrics. Right? No,
jesus is like, I'm leaving. And actually, I need you guys to take care of each other. >> Loren: Right, right. >> Yolanda Solomon: I love that discourse. Uh, mother, behold thy son. Son, behold thy mother. Like, y'all take care of each other because I'm out of. I'm about to be out. So I need you guys to love one another as I have loved you, but I'm gonna send you power. >> Loren: Send the spirit, right? >> Yolanda Solomon: Acts, chapter, acts, chapter one.
They're like, are you good? Is it. Is this the time you're gonna restore Israel? And he's like, what are you guys talking? No, forget that. Now's not the time, but forget about time. I'm gonna give you power from on high so that you can go and you can share my good news with everyone. And the Peter and the john that we see in acts chapter three are so different than the Peter that we see in Luke 22 when he's denying Jesus. And he's, you know, he's a.
He's a coward, which, honestly, all of us would be. I'd be a little scared, you know, Jesus just being crucified, and they want to do that to me. No, thanks. I don't know him. Right. But this is a journey. This is a journey, right? And so, even after Jesus has ascended to heaven and has poured his spirit out, the disciples are finally figuring out a bit or so later. Wow. This is what it means to proclaim the good works of Jesus without fear. This is what
it means to, uh. I mean, one of my favorite passages of scripture, and I'll just stick with Peter here, is in acts chapter four. After Peter has been arrested, he's been threatened, don't preach anymore. Um, he goes to a small group of I believe, and I believe they're new christians because acts chapter two says, you know, thousands were added. So these are newly saved believers. And he says. And he asked for prayer. He asked for them to pray, and they pray this powerful prayer.
Um, and I love that. The same Peter that couldn't be that kind of got caught by himself trying to follow Jesus by himself. He got caught out there slipping, you would say, in Brooklyn. And he denies Jesus. Now he knows, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh. When I'm in trouble, when I'm scared, you're not gonna catch me by myself again. I'm going back to my community, and I'm gonna pray with them for the courage to. What does he say? Proclaim the word boldly. Right. That's a different man. That's a spirit
filled man. That's a man who knows the value of community. There's not this hierarchical top down. Oh, you know, Peter's just gonna grit it and just be a super Christian. And I know, I don't even know if I'm still answering your question, but he's like, no, the power that I'm going to need to follow Jesus is going to come from the Holy Ghost, but it's also going to come from this body of believers that I am now connected to.
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah, let's stay on that, because you write in your book about, at least as I interpret it, the recip. Can't say the word reciprocal. Nature of discipleship. You mentioned there, Peter going to what we would interpret as new believers saying, hey, I need prayer. And discipleship in church context can often be, like you mentioned, a top down relationship. Continue to talk about the importance in discipleship of that reciprocal nature.
>> Yolanda Solomon: Right. And so my, uh, years ago, we, uh, were doing a Bible study at church in Philippians. And I think that's what kind of sparked this for me, because I've worked in a local church now in Brooklyn here for about three years. But before then, I worked in campus ministry. I worked in campus ministry, um, at Columbia University for about eight years, um, serving undergraduate students. Phenomenal. But the age gap was a
bit more. And so for years, I only thought that the mentoring, um, and the discipleship was only supposed to kind of be one directional, not reciprocal. Right? Like, I do the teaching, I do the exhortation, I do the encouraging.
And it really made me feel like I couldn't share any of my doubts, any of my weariness, any of my fears with somebody that I was discipling, because I'm like, wow, if they see me struggling, they're gonna think, oh, well, if Yolanda's a leader and she's struggling or she has doubts, what hope is there for me? And, you know, mentors helped me to see, number one, that. That was super prideful. Um, but also what I say in the book is that
when we don't, uh, pour. When we pour out in ministry and don't allow people to pour in, I don't care if they've been a Christian for a week, we're saying to them, I don't need you. >> Loren: That's good. >> Yolanda Solomon: We're saying what Paul says in one corinthians twelve of the foot says to the elbow, I don't need you. Right? And this is the metaphor of the body of Christ. And we don't say it out loud, I don't need you. But what we also do is we
rob them of. We rob ourselves of a vital means of grace, and we rob our mentee or our disciple, an example to embody the good news that we're trying to teach them about. And so one of the things that I do now is regularly ask people that I'm mentoring to pray for me. >> Loren: That's good. >> Yolanda Solomon: And sometimes pray for you. And I'm like, yeah, pray for me. I need it. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Yolanda Solomon: Right? I'm stressed out. Right. Life is tough. You know,
I got this going on and that going on. And number one, they are happy to do it, but number two, they are, so, I believe, grateful for an opportunity to embody the very things that I kind of talk to them about. About prayer being communion, prayer being communication, prayer being conversation, but prayer also being us co laboring with goddess hearts. They're like, wow, I'm working with God to do whatever God is trying to do
in you. And I think that's extremely empowering for people, because I want people to see discipleship as us participating in what God is already doing. And so what it does is it takes away the, like, hierarchical nature where, uh, some Christian is up here, you know, the pastor, the preacher, minister, and then the rest of us are just down here. Um, because that's not biblical, right? Jesus said, there's
only one teacher, right? I'm it. The rest of you guys are students in my school, in the school of Jesus. One more example, and I won't, uh, talk too deep in this, because this is in the book. But if you think about even Paul's relationship with the philippian church, I love, uh, what he says. He says in Philippians, chapter two, verse 28, he says, um, uh, I know that through your prayers and God's provision of the spirit of Jesus, that what happened
to me will turn out for my deliverance. I eagerly expect and I hope that I will have sufficient courage so that Christ will be exalted in my body. And I love that. That there's this vulnerability where he's sharing. He's inviting them into his anxiety. He's inviting them to share in his sufferings, uh, all through the letter to the Philippians. And he's also. He's saying, I'm confident in the Holy Spirit, but I'm also confident in your
prayers. Right? Like, I know that through your prayers and the provision of the Holy Ghost, that what has happened to me will work out for my deliverance. And so I love that Paul doesn't minimize his suffering to protect the Philippians. He invites them into his suffering, and then they send help. They send this man named Epaphroditus with real, tangible help, uh, to help Paul. But then Paul doesn't have, like, this, like, uh.
I call, like, a toxic kind of relationship where he's banking on his apostolic pedigree to sanctify them. He says, no, no, no. The work that God began in you, I'm confident that God will bring it to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. Not my confidence is in the work that Paul has begun, even though he kind of technically did begin the work. Like, Paul recognizes that he's part of something much bigger than himself.
Paul recognizes that there's a mutuality between him and the philippian church, and Paul is happy to partner with them. Right. There's this beautiful word, koinonia in the Greek, that is used so much in Philippians, that literally
means gospel partnership. And I think that if we viewed our discipleship relationships as partnerships, you'd have a lot less burnt out pastors, you'd have a lot less burnt out christians, and you'd have a lot more new christians actually walking out their faith in a way that is enriching and life giving.
>> Loren: Yeah. So much good. So much good stuff you're saying there, because I can just think about it through multiple elements, like a. The pastor or church leader getting burned out and worn out from trying to be everything to everybody. Um, the kind of the mentality that can so often be in churches where it's like the person or person comes in is like, feed me, feed me, feed m me. It's like, hey, that's part of your job, too, right? Uh, such. Appreciate your insights there.
Let me ask this question, too, because it's coming to mind, I think, when I think of discipleship, and I think this is a fair characterization, what was commonly understood as discipleship, it's either as memorization, like you write about in the book, or I think, conversely, in different contexts, it can be this kind of like fear, shame and hatred. And maybe hatred is too strong, but it can be this kind of like fear and shame about, you know, we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna.
We're gonna force. I shouldn't say force, but we're gonna drive behavioral change one way through, either getting you to memorize a bunch of stuff or kind of fearing and shaming you into. And I think this happens on both sides of Christianity, whether it's a conservative side or a more progressive liberal side. Talk about those two paths. And why do you think those are not conducive to real strength discipleship? >> Yolanda Solomon: Yeah. Um, in the book, I talk about the trio of fear,
shame and hatred. And I say that if you use fear, shame and hatred to disciple people or to bring them to God, you have to keep them afraid, ashamed and angry. >> Loren: Ah. >> Yolanda Solomon: And I, um, think we see all three of those in the american church today where, whether it's people saying, you know, come to Jesus, come to my church, because they are
afraid of being replaced. I mean, we literally saw march in, in Virginia in various parts of America where the chant was, you will not replace us. And it's like the church is dwindling. Our children and our grandchildren aren't coming to church. What are we gonna do? We're gonna be replaced. Right. And I say that fear is such a weak motivation, uh, for discipleship because you have to keep people afraid. Right. And so, you know, then. And also biblically, the Bible says that love casts out
fear. And so, you know, if your motivation is fear, once people stop being afraid, then they're going to stop following. Right. And then also shame. Right. If you're just constantly having people question their salvation. And every Sunday there's an altar call, and every Sunday, you know, oh, you know, if you've sinned this week, come on and get it right. There's just this never ending cycle of shame wherever discipleship just is manufactured sorrow, mhm, and
condemnation. And you never actually get around to following Jesus because you're so busy, you know, beating yourself up over sins that Jesus already died for. >> Loren: Hm. >> Yolanda Solomon: Right. And then with the hatred, I mean, we don't have to go further than January 6, you know, where it's like, America is a christian nation. We've got to keep it pure. We've got to keep a christian, whatever that means.
And, uh, that means getting rid of these others, making sure these others don't cross our borders because they're going to pollute our christian witness. Whereas Jesus says, in Matthew 25, when I was a stranger, you invited me in, and his disciples say, wait a minute. When were you ever a stranger? And now for us, we hear stranger and we think, well, what does that mean? But the greek root word for stranger is xenos, which is where we get our root, our
word for xenophobia, right? Which, you know, we know xenophobia has to do with, uh, intense hatred or fear of people from another nation. And so Jesus is saying, listen, in the kingdom, there are no strangers in the kingdom. Everyone is your neighbor, and I identify with the stranger. So whatever you do for the least of those, you do for me. Right? And so back to why fear, shame and hatred are a horrible means of discipleship. They just don't laugh, number one.
But number two, they're not the way of Jesus. Jesus didn't gather people by making them ashamed, afraid, or hating their neighbor. Jesus built his kingdom through self sacrificial love. He said, you know, the kingdom of God is near. And then he just gets to the work of serving and loving and calls us to follow him. Right? And so I think discipleship bad. Um, discipleship usually is. And I've fallen into this trap, you know, where someone says,
hey, landa, I want to grow. You know, I really don't enjoy reading scripture or I don't enjoy praying, you know, help me to grow in my discipline. And there's always that word discipline they use. And, you know, I could give them a list of things to memorize. I could give them index cards of scripture, you know, because I think the goal is you want people to get their word in their heart, right? But see, what this does is.
I think what it does is it help makes us forget that salvation is a miracle. I think we've actually forgotten that what we are involved in is miraculous. >> Loren: Mhm. >> Yolanda Solomon: Discipleship is about heart transformation, right? It's about a new heart and a new spirit and new affections. When Jesus says, you must be born again, that's a metaphor, right? Nicodemus, uh, is like, how can I go back in my mother's womb? And
Jesus is like, no, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about, I want to change the way you love. I want to change who, what and how you love. Jesus is talking about, I want to change the way you love. I want to change who, what and how you love. By the power of my spirit and lauren, that takes time. That's a, uh, that's sanctification. That's progressive. That's lifelong, right. And as you encounter me, who, what, and how you love slowly, slowly starts to match
who, what and how I love. Right. And that has nothing to do with fear or shame or hatred. Right. That has to do with us being slowly changed and slowly being sanctified as we encounter Jesus, as the Holy Spirit does the heavy lifting of heart transformation, and as we are loving flesh and blood people. This all can't just be about mental assent to doctrine, right? It has to actually, like, have flesh and blood, you know, tangibility at some point, or else it's too theoretical. It's not real.
I say in the book that discipleship has to. To introduce people to the body of Christ, or else it's just too theoretical. Right. I need to love actual people and be patient with actual people and serve actual people and bear the burdens of actual people in order for this to actually do what I believe Jesus kind of rigged this to do all along, which has changed our hearts. >> Loren: Boy, I really appreciate, really appreciate your
words there. And so much is fitting into, I think, the theme of what your book, obviously, in our conversation. Uh, let me ask you one more question here before we take a break. Um. Oh, uh, trying to remember the question. So we kind of talked about this earlier, but how would you advise churches, pastors and church leaders to kind of create a culture of discipleship like we talked about earlier? Church can often be this kind of like, feed me mentality where the folks
come in expecting to be fed. The pastor has this expectation, external or internal, to kind of do all the feeding and the teaching. How do we create a more mutual, uh, discipleship culture? >> Yolanda Solomon: Yeah, I think, first of all, it does have to start with the head, I think. Um, for better or for worse, people look to pastors to model
and lead. So I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, but I think, honestly, pastors for whom that is true, where there's the pastor and maybe two or three other people who do all the work, the pastor has to call themselves out. They have to say, this is kind of gonna end, and they have to realize that it's not gonna end overnight. They have to take the risk to begin to disciple people. Maybe. I
would say just start. If a pastor were to start meeting with maybe five to six people on a weekly basis and just begin to train them. And I talk about this in my book, you know, how to do this, um, and then empower those people. And that's usually where it stops, because
that's risky. You now have to say I'm going to trust people who may not preach like me, who may not teach like me, who may not pray like me, who may not articulate, uh, you know, uh, doctrinal truth the way I do, to say, you know what? Instead of this counseling session that I'm gonna have with sister Sheila or brother Craig, you know, what? Can you do that? Can you meet with them? Right? And this is the, these are the people that now the pastor's been meeting
with. And maybe going through a book with, you know, you could get my book, uh, or many books. There are many books to get, um, empowered. The trellis and the vine is a great book. Actually. My pastor brought us through that and then say, you know what? Can you actually, uh, meet and have coffee with this new believer who just came and then let me know how that goes, right? And do that with, like, ten
people. And now, all of a sudden, instead of one person doing all the counseling, all the discipling, you've got ten people meeting with ten people, right? And then just over a period of time, what ends up happening is that you have the body of Christ being the body of Christ. And what's beautiful about that is that we're all different. And I think that scares some pastors. Uh, the difference in, like,
they're not going to do it how I do it. But first, Peter, chapter four, verse ten, says, no matter what gift you have, use your gift to serve. Right? And we all have different giftings. Like, some of us have great administrative gifts, some of us have great preaching and exhortation gifts. Some of us have amazing prayer gifts, some of us have gifts of hospitality. And the beauty is, it's the same Holy Ghost, it's the same Holy Spirit hitting the body of Christ. And it's almost like a prism,
right? Howard A. Snyder, in his book, Community of the King, talks about the body of Christ as this prism. And as the Holy Spirit hits you and hits me and hits him and hits her, what comes out is this beautiful light of grace and of power, the power of God. That's going to look different, the same way light looks different when it hits a prison and it goes that way and it refracts that way and it refracts that way as the Holy Ghost
hits me and hits you and hits this one and that one. It's going to shine out different towards someone, but it's the same holy spirit. It's the same holy spirit. And then I think that begets more disciples, because now from that coffee, now that person knows that person, right? And they don't just only know the pastor. Right. I think what happens is when you have the pastor doing all the work, or just two or three people, that's a great way to get people to quit. >> Loren: Right.
>> Yolanda Solomon: And retire early or start. Or start drinking, uh, which, like, we don't. We don't want that. So. Yeah, that's my advice. >> Loren: So much good points there. Uh, we need to take a break, but so many good points there. I want to highlight, like, a. I'm just thinking about, like, you know, the. The church secession model is, like, so many churches, like, falter when they change pastors because it's so built up on, like, the singular
figure. Uh, two, I'm thinking about, like, early, early church. Like, how did the gospel spread? It was by people telling their neighbors, like, it wasn't sure, like, Paul, and there were many leaders there who were sharing, but it was people telling people. Um, so you necessarily didn't recommend your book or. But I will recommend your book here, discipleship, uh, as holy collaboration, helping others follow Jesus in real life. Definitely want to recommend it. Definitely worth
checking out. Uh, should be available, I assume, wherever books are sold. >> Yolanda Solomon: Yes, it's available everywhere, Loren. And I've been saying this on interviews. Uh, it's also, some people don't like reading books. I found out if you don't like turning pages, it's available as an audiobook on audiobooks.com. you know, you can wash your dishes, vacuum, pick your kids up from school, and listen to me talk about discipleship.
>> Loren: Well, I would be glad to listen to you talk about discipleship, too. So I'm sure our listeners would, as well. Uh, let's take a quick break and come back with some closing questions. All right, we're back with Yolanda Solomon. So thanks for the conversation. Really appreciate your perspectives here for these closing questions. I always tell folks, you can take these as seriously or not as you'd like to. Uh, but if you're pope for a day, what might that day look like for you?
>> Yolanda Solomon: Pope for the day? I don't know. A lot of traveling. I like to travel. The pope goes a lot away, a lot. I love Italy. I've always telling my husband I'd love to go to Sicily and eat, uh, some seafood by the sea. So if I were pope for the day, I would definitely take the advantage to travel, meet people, pray with people, eat some good food, which is what I imagine the pope does. >> Loren: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Some really good italian
food. Kind of making me hungry here. A, uh, theologian or historical christian figure you'd want to meet or bring back. >> Yolanda Solomon: To life Dietrich Bonhoeff. >> Loren: Okay. >> Yolanda Solomon: But honorable mention to Jerina Lee, who was one of the first women who preached, uh, in the ame church in Philadelphia. I believe she was part of Richard Allen's church. >> Loren: Okay. Yeah. Deep pulls there.
>> Yolanda Solomon: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm reading an m autobiography about her, uh, called sisters in the spirit. >> Loren: Okay. >> Yolanda Solomon: Um, uh, three black women's autobiographies of the 19th century. And so I'm learning about Jarina Lee, zilfa elaw, and Julia Foote. Um, and so, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, first, um, I would want to bring him back to life for obvious reasons, because America has gone crazy. But Jareena Lee, I'd love to just, like, have coffee with.
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah. Just reading a book about the, uh, reading a church history book about the founding of the ame church. So fresh in my mind. All right, um, what do you think history will remember from our current time and place? >> Yolanda Solomon: I don't know. It's wild. I live in Brooklyn, New York, and our former president was just convicts. >> Loren: That is true. As we're recording this charges. >> Yolanda Solomon: Yeah. Like, literally. So this is a crazy time
in history, I will tell you. I don't know what history will remember. I know what I will remember, that I would like to live in some precedent times. I'm really sick of living in unprecedented times. I just want some regular old, you know, Bill Clinton on the Arsenio hall show, playing the saxophone. Um, I think that. No, no, no. But to be serious, I think that history will remember this as a turning point. Where we turn is up to us. >> Loren: That's good.
>> Yolanda Solomon: But I think history will remember this current time, 2024, as a turning point in history. >> Loren: Yeah. Right. Where we turn is up to us. Uh, what do you hope for the future of Christianity? >> Yolanda Solomon: Uh, I'm gonna keep this one simple. I hope for the future of Christianity, that we would look to the past, ironically, in order to go forward. I think how we go forward is
largely based on how we look at the past. And I think as we look to the way of Jesus, look to the simple, humble way of Jesus, where the gospel was super simple. Lay down your lives for others, pick up your cross, love your neighbor as I have loved you. That's my hope for the future, that christians really just kind of make the main thing. The main thing again. >> Loren: Yeah, yeah. Thanks so much. Um, where can people connect with you and find out more about your stuff?
>> Yolanda Solomon: Yeah. I am, um, Yolanda Solomon with all o's. S o l. O m m o n. Uh, Yolanda Solomon, BK on Instagram, Facebook. Um, I'm on Twitter, if you can find me there. I'm a little spicy on Twitter, though, so, you know, govern yourselves accordingly. Um, and my website is yolandasolomon site. Uh, and so you can find me on the interwebs. And my book is available for sale everywhere. Bookshop, uh, Amazon, Barnes and Noble,
audiobooks.com, comma, Target, Walmart. If you just Google Yolanda Solomon, you will find me. And a lot of people don't know this. My book is put out by inter varsity Press. And if you go to the intervarsity press website, you can download a sample chapter. So you can try before you buy, you can actually, uh, read a sample chapter of my book, uh, on the inner varsity press website. >> Loren: I'll have to see if I can get that in the show notes. That'd be
good. Okay, well, um, I want to go back to talking Nick's basketball here, but I'll relent. Thanks, um, so much for your time. Really appreciate the conversation. Again, appreciate the book, and, uh, appreciate your ministry. Always leave folks with a word of peace. So may God's peace be with you. You. >> Yolanda Solomon: Thank you. >> Loren: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian podcast.
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