Wounded Pastors: Carol Howard talks about the challenges clergy face

>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast, your source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church into the 21st century. At the Future Christian podcast, we talk to pastors, authors and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical wisdom to help you and your community of faith walk boldly into the future. Now here's your host, Lauren Richmond Junior. >> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. Today we're

welcoming Carol Howard to the show. Reverend Carol Howard is the award winning author of several books, including Wounded pastors, navigating Burnout, Finding, healing, and discerning the future of your ministry, and healing spiritual wounds, reconnecting with a loving God after experiencing a hurtful church. Carol is a frequent contributor to books, websites, magazines, and journals. She was a regular columnist at the Christian Century,

where her blog was hosted. She's a Presbyterian Peace USA minister in a village church outside of New York City. Let's welcome Carol to the show. Uh, all right. >> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. This is Loren Richmond junior, and today I'm pleased to welcome Reverend carol Howard to the show. Thanks so much for being here. >> Carol Howard: It's great to be here. Thank you so much for the

invitation. Yeah. >> Loren: Glad to have you. So, just for our listeners today, I am recording from home with the kids, home from spring break. So there may be some guest voices in the background. So I appreciate your patience and continue to listen through here as we have this conversation with Carol. But, uh, Carol, I appreciate your presence here. Anything else you'd like our listeners to know about you? >> Carol Howard: Um, well, no,

not too much. I was trying to just think of something fascinating and interesting, but I don't know. I was always bad at that party game. >> Loren: It's so much exhausting trying to think about what makes that whole. What's so special about me for those kind of things. >> Carol Howard: Right, right, right. I can tell you like my favorite food. I don't know. >> Loren: What is your favorite food? >> Loren: How about that? >> Carol Howard: Okay. I would say I like

italian food. It's good. You know? So, like, lately I've been like, my favorite food will change every day, but lately I've been really wanting some, like, lasagna. Um, what about you? What's your favorite food? Yeah, my six year old, probably salmon. >> Loren: Uh, my six year old son is, like, obsessed right now with dad. What's your favorite food? He's always asking us that, so. And he's like, my favorite food is chicken nuggets. Like, shocking for a six year old.

>> Carol Howard: Right, right. >> Loren: So what about you? What's your favorite food? Buffalo wings. >> Carol Howard: Oh, yeah. >> Loren: Love a good, good buffalo wing. Not too crazy spicy, but a little kick is good. And like, the messier the better. Like, to me, it's like more fun if I'm just come out looking like a, you know, like a toddler. >> Carol Howard: Yeah. You know, I'm a vegetarian, but actually buffalo wild wings has these cauliflower.

They're delicious. They're so good. I love them. >> Loren: And you can, if you're into the mess, you can probably get into the mess there too, with. >> Carol Howard: Oh, yeah, completely. They put all the same spices and rubs. >> Loren: Um, it's great. >> Loren: All right, well, this is not a food podcast, so we'll keep going there.

>> Carol Howard: Okay. >> Loren: Share, if you would, about your faith journey, what that's looked like in the past and what that looks like today. >> Carol Howard: Well, let's see. I grew up very, very conservative, um, fundamentalist, southern Baptist, the mean kind of Baptist. I guess there's all kinds of. I was with the mean kind, um, and so, which didn't work very well since I was also called to ministry. So they didn't really believe

in women ministers. And so I always felt really bad about that. And I went to a fundamentalist Bible college and, um, and went to Moody Bible institute in Chicago. And, um, it was difficult because, you know, basically there are a lot of, like, homeschool kids or kids who went to international mission schools or whatever there.

>> Loren: Yeah. Ah. >> Carol Howard: And I was just kind of like a regular public school kid, so I didn't really know what it was going to be like and to live with all those rules and stuff. So I didn't, I didn't, I didn't do very well there. Um, but thankfully, while I was there, I did meet somebody who encouraged me to join a mainline denomination and go to seminary. And, um, so that was good. That was good. Philip Yancey was my Sunday school teacher.

>> Loren: Wow. >> Loren: There. >> Carol Howard: So, yeah, yeah, so, so there were, there were a lot of good things that happened, um, while I was there. And, uh, so now I'm, um, a Presbyterian. >> Loren: Uh, I can't remember if I told. >> Loren: You this or another. Moody graduate.

>> Carol Howard: Yeah. >> Loren: Um, growing up fundamental baptist myself, like, moody, I always had, like, such an aura of, like, people who went to Moody were like the true, whole people we are. So I am just know that I am still impressed by your holiness spiritual practices that are meaningful for you. Something you don't mind sharing. >> Carol Howard: Um, well, there are a lot, probably journaling is the most, writing, uh,

is the most. I'm learning to breathe, like, use my breath a lot more, you know, in stressful situations and things like that. So I wouldn't say that's my favorite at this point, but it's helpful. >> Loren: Mhm. >> Carol Howard: Um, but certainly journaling. >> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. >> Loren: Well, this is all. We're already off to a good start, so I'm looking forward to our continued

conversation here. So I had Carolyn, uh, brought her on the pod again to talk about, uh, her book and also kind of the topic of clergy health. So let's begin just kind of talking about clergy trends. And I know there's been some recent data, uh, released by the Hartford Institute, um, about overall clergy health. Certainly we're seeing a lot about clergy shortages. >> Loren: Um, I was listening to, speaking of. >> Loren: Them southern Baptist podcast, and I was.

>> Loren: Kind of shocked just about how the. >> Loren: Clergy shortage is everywhere. Uh, even in the southern Baptist tradition, there's a real serious clergy shortage. I guess, broadly speaking. What are your initial thoughts, or what have you been thinking about related to these trends and how they impact clergy? >> Carol Howard: Well, I guess it's not a surprise that there's a

shortage. There's been a big transition, I know, in our, um, denomination Presbyterian church, which I think has some of the same sort of, um, trends. They were asking for three years of a master's, which makes sense. And then, and then you had to go to get a CPE, which I know people love that. And then you really needed to do an internship, and a year long internship was best. And so you're like, coming out of the place with four years of

seminary debt. Um, and a lot of us were saying, you know, we can't do this. We don't get paid like you can't. And then we have a bunch of ordination exams on top of that. And so people would be stalling to get a job for, you know, even longer, um, just to pass these ords. And, you know, it's not like the bar exam. We don't. We're not getting a big paycheck at the end of

it. And so really, the amount of money that we had to go into debt in order to get a, ah, salary, that wasn't usually, um, it wasn't usually even up to the teacher salaries. Um, it's not sustainable. And then, um. So then when you start talking to college students who are really interested in the ministry, you kind of have to say, well, be careful, and even I'm going to be. There are seminaries who I did not pay any tuition at all,

which is incredible. But you still have to live, you still have to eat, and you still have to. So, um, it's just really expensive. So you had that sort of going on. And at the same time, there's a crisis of status. When people ask, um, what you do, it's kind of embarrassing because my daughter doesn't usually tell people that I'm a minister because, um. Uh, she said, it's not because I'm ashamed of who you

are or what you do. She said, what I'm worried about is what people think you are after saying it. And, um, with so many, uh, scandals and so many horrible things that have gone on, people have this ideal that we are, um, all money grubbing, terrible people. So there's this kind of crisis in status that's going along with this financial crisis.

Um, and then sort of nationally, there is, uh, attendance is going down, um, and budgets are harder to keep up with, and buildings are getting older, and so we have this kind, um, of trifecta happening. And so we walk into the church, and even though this has been going on for 50 years, they're kind of blaming it on the pastor who walks in yesterday. It's like, well, hey, you've been, uh. You've been putting off this maintenance for a lot longer than, you know, since I've been here, so.

And I don't want to, like, I just feel like I just piled on. There is also tremendous, wonderful things about being a minister, too, which is why I'm still here. But I'm just answering the question. >> Loren: Yeah, no, I am still

pro pastor, but I think the real challenges. I'd agree with everything you said there. I'm thinking, as someone who, similarly to you, I think of my eight semesters in seminary, I think I only actually paid a dime, like three or five of those seminaries, I can't remember. So I didn't really necessarily come out with a lot of debt load, per se. But, you know, I've thought about it otherwise in my more cynical moments, that it's not necessarily even the. Even the debt or lack

thereof. It's like, you know, four years of my life that I might have gotten another degree or, you know, advanced my career. Otherwise, not the. Not to discount or diminish. Like, I really appreciate the MDIV and what I learned there. Um, but those are serious challenges. And especially when you think about, you know, on top of, like you said, the institutional decline, um, the challenges of, you know, of collapse in many ways, right, of churches and denominations and institutions.

Um, you know, I'm thinking about, as I referenced already in that Harford Institute study, there was a surprising amount of clergy who seem to be doing quite well. And if I remember correctly, it was. >> Loren: Something about established clergy. >> Loren: I don't remember the exact numbers, but clergy who have been in the game, so to speak, a long time or a while soon to be happier or more content than those who were early on in their

career. So do you have any sense about what that might be about? >> Carol Howard: Yeah, I mean, um, I can guess. One thing is, you know, if you bought your house a while ago or if you're living in a manse, you have the housing issue, at least here in. I'm in New York City or outside of New York City, so that the housing issue is a big one around here. Um, so that has a big determining, uh, factor. Um, if you're trying to buy a house on a salary right now,

it's really difficult. Um, and so I think that, uh, um, with the cost of housing going up so much with also clergy salaries staying stagnant for, um, so long, uh, it's just not feasible for clergy. And then, um, so that's just one aspect. Um, there is a lot of ageism when it comes to, uh, clergy. Um, and that's difficult. Uh, I think, um, another thing that's happening is there's this sense that, I mean, I serve a church that has been open since 1680. >> Loren: Wow.

>> Carol Howard: Yeah. So, um, long time. And our churches have been surviving for a long, long time, and yet oftentimes we'll get, um, not we in particular, but clergy. >> Loren: Hm. >> Carol Howard: We'll get this business person that comes in and they're like, oh, you know, I've been, you know, doing my business for, you know, 20 years, so I know better.

Or, you know, we'll start, you know, we have just such a highly capitalistic society that we have this sense that, you know, the business people can save us. And so I think that's kind of frustrating. Um, so there's a lot of things, I believe, uh, that are hitting particularly young clergy. Um, you know, many times, um, uh, the age of our congregants are getting older, and so, um, they don't quite always understand the challenges that young clergy are going through. >> Loren: Right.

>> Carol Howard: So, yeah, there's just a lot. There's a lot that younger clergy have to deal with, I think. And the, um, many times, younger clergy not only have student loan debt from seminary, but they had additional debt from undergraduate, um, older clergy may not have. So it's a completely, completely different, um, financial situation, and the church hasn't dealt with that yet. And our denomination, the presbyterian church, they just. This week, um. >> Loren: Yeah, I saw this.

>> Carol Howard: Yeah, yeah, there's, you know, the Internet's blowing up because, uh, they, they've just, um, said that, you know, clergy with families are, they came out with how much, um, they would need to be paying an insurance. And it's like 65% of, you know, our salaries are going to insurance. So I mean, clearly we just have not kept up, you know, and, um, so it's a real tragedy.

>> Loren: Yeah. I laugh about the age thing because, uh, I guess I can say my, well, you know, I feel like in mainline world I was like, too young, too young, too young, too young. And then now that I'm 40, 41, like in any other context, like I'm over the hill. >> Carol Howard: Yeah. Yeah. It's really fascinating, isn't it? >> Loren: Yeah. Um, let's, gosh, I feel like we. >> Loren: Could keep rolling on this like negative train for the whole episode and I don't want this

to. There are good things, there are good things, but I mean, the challenges are for real. I mean, uh, yeah, I saw a post from a, uh, pastor I know in Chicago, like Chicago Chicago. And he was saying that like some churches are thinking about turning their Sunday school classrooms into like apartments for their clergy, essentially, which, you know, makes sense because I don't know how in the world, like, especially if you're talking like Chicago, New York, I mean, these big.

>> Loren: Cities, I mean, I mean, I live. >> Loren: In Denver Metro and I interviewed recently for church and I don't want to say how much they're offering, but it's like this is not anywhere near a living wage of what you should be offering. >> Carol Howard: Uh, right, right. >> Loren: So the challenges are real. >> Loren: Um, and I think we'd both agree. >> Loren: Right.

>> Loren: I, uh, was just talking to a. >> Loren: Denominational leader in my context yesterday and he just kind of emphasized like since. >> Loren: COVID these trends have really kind of just been exacerbated. >> Carol Howard: Right, absolutely. And, um, not only have the budget challenges and also the attendance challenges, um, but also the housing and inflation and everything's gone

up. And uh, so, you know, when you listen to economists, they'll say, oh, well, the salaries have gone up right along with inflation. And I'm like, oh, not, not for us, but I really believe, and I don't know, people deny this all the time, but we are sitting on like mountains of money. >> Loren: Mhm. >> Carol Howard: Like just mountains of money,

all these pockets of money. And you know, people will say, oh, well, those are designated for certain things and, yeah, okay, but somebody needs to start putting money into clergy and clergy housing and subsistence and, you know, like, because we're not going to have churches if we don't have pastors. Well, we're just not. And I know everybody's like, oh, we need to rethink this, right, blah, blah, blah. But it's, we're just, we can't starve our clergy and expect to have churches.

>> Loren: I think. >> Carol Howard: And I know, you know, everybody wants to deny. That's the truth. But it's the truth. >> Loren: I think the demographic or the. Not the demographic, um, I think the dynamic that I worry about is essentially what I feel like you probably seen in some context where just, like, because the church is paying so little or offering basically next to nothing, clergy kind of, like, undercut the market. >> Carol Howard: Uh-huh.

>> Loren: Someone is desperate to have a job or wants to be pastor, so they'll go work for next to nothing. Or the church will essentially just hire someone, elevate someone out of their congregation, which I don't want to discount that, because obviously folks can have ministry skills and giftings, whether or not they have an M div, for instance. >> Carol Howard: Right, right.

>> Loren: Um, but it also does kind of like, using an economic term, again, does kind of, like, depress the market. So it can be a real challenge there. >> Carol Howard: Yeah, yeah, it can. Um, and, you know, I think that that goes back to. I mean, in our system, this really weird thing was happening where we were expecting more and more internships and CPE credits, and it was costing more and more, but at the

same time, we were growing these kind of robust, um, lay pastor, uh, uh, programs where. And it's like, well, why would anybody become a trained, um, um, minister if you could just be a lay pastor and not have to go through the same sort of hoops and in the same sort of, which. Which is fine if we. If that's a strategic right plan. But it seemed like we had these two tracks going, and we weren't talking to each other.

And so now. Now our seminaries are emptying out, and, um, we just don't always have, and I'm 100% with you, like, I train, um, lay preachers and incredibly thankful for them. So I don't want to diminish that. But do we want an educated clergy? And if we do, we need to start putting our money and our resources and, um. And our power behind that. >> Loren: Yeah. Because we're really advocating for those who are jumping on, Carol and I. We're really advocating for a both and situation.

We want to advocate for, or we want to empower laity and ministry and that sort of thing. But we also are trying to advocate for, like, hey, let's. You know, let's. If we're going to say, like, uh, ordained clergy, um, matter. Like, let's put our money where our mouth is too. Right? >> Carol Howard: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Well, yeah. >> Loren: One of the things that I think is important in this conversation, um, is the idea of

controlling what we can control. Right. And that's where I really appreciate family systems theory in, at least as I understand it. One of the most profound principles, to me at least, is like, thinking about what can I control?

Um, so you obviously a, uh, good familiarity with that concept, and we're going to talk about here in a moment your book, which features a lot of family systems theory, but talk a little bit about your experience with family systems theory and how you think it can be a help to pastors and clergy, you know, especially as we think about all these challenges and dynamics we've been talking about. >> Carol Howard: Yeah. Well, I definitely am indebted to, uh, my friend James Minimore, who co

authored the book. And he's a therapist. And it was interesting because I was writing this book, um, way before I came to my present church, and he was writing a book as well. And, um, James is a therapist with the Good Samaritan center, or the Samaritan center, and he works outside of our church. And so we were reflecting on the books that we were writing, and we decided to, uh, merge them. And so I learned a tremendous amount from James.

And a lot of what we went through with COVID really reflects family system theories. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Carol Howard: And, um, you know, so if you think of, um, uh, our churches not as individuals, but as organizations, as, um, these systems, you can start to see some patterns that are taking place. So there are many things, um, like, uh, homeostasis, like, uh, uh, these systems, these organizations, they really like to maintain homeostasis.

And we talk about it like a rubber band on the wrist. The harder you pull on that rubber band when it snaps back, the harder it hurts. And the more it wants to come back to homeostasis, wants to go back to that shape and form it used to be. So what we had. And also when we have these systems, um, fear really does an anxiety, does something, um, uh, it really stresses out this system. So oftentimes when you have fear and anxiety, you have a lot of polarization. You have people

pitting against people. You have, um, uh, people cutting people off, people getting really angry and tense, people fleeing. You have the whole fight, flight or flee sort of situation that happens. And so here we were on this trajectory that, again, has been happening, um, way before you became a minister, and even I became a minister, and that is, you know, this decline. And, um, it had been going on for a while, and then COVID hits, and it

accelerated church closings. It accelerated the fear, really, I think, for a lot of congregations. And so when that anxiety sort of spiked, um, then all of these things began to happen. People began to, um, uh, resist any sort of change. They began to polarize. They began to fight with one another. Um, and so it's been a very difficult, even traumatic time, I think, for a lot of clergy. And, um, everybody kind of assumed that as soon as we opened up, it would be fine. Everything would be.

>> Loren: I did go back to. >> Carol Howard: Yeah, I did, too. Everything will be back to normal. And then you're like, oh, this is not normal. So. So there is this just extreme challenges that we're going through, and there's not a lot of support because then, um, at the same time, we also have, um, you know, all, uh, of the. >> Loren: Other things that we talked about. >> Loren: Yeah.

>> Carol Howard: Ah, yeah. So, uh, you know, a lot of clergy are suffering right now, and, um. And, you know, the good thing about it is, well, there's no. I don't want to, like, slap a happy face on top of it. But the reason why we called our book wounded pastors is because of that kind of jungian theory that Henry Nowan, Henri Nouwen picked, um, up so beautifully. Um, that idea of wounded healers, you know, and, you know, we're in this time of post trauma, and, um, we

can have some growth out of it. We will have some growth. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Carol Howard: It's just going to take a while. >> Loren: Yeah. Well, I think that's an important. I think that's such an important point to speak about, and I want to talk more about that. But there's also some quotes here from the book I want to highlight just because they resonated with me. So here, this one I shouldn't say highlight. This one I hated, but I know it's true.

Church members will take as much of your energy, time and work as they can. This is not because they're evil, but because they're human. And boy, oh, boy, does that slap a lot of us pastors in the face. Right? Uh, as much as I understand that and appreciate that quote, I also don't like it. So talk through that with me and for our listeners.

>> Carol Howard: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, most of us who are clergy, or a lot of us as clergy, you know, you do have undeniably, like, some narcissistic, you know, clergy out there, and, um, but I think a lot of clergy like, we. We want to be servants. We want to. We want to serve the church, we want to give to the church, we want to love the church. You know, we want to take up our cross daily. You know, uh, we have all these, like, images m of. Of servanthood.

Um, but one of the issues that can come up with that is we end up, um, really hurting ourselves and hurting our families and all of that. And we, again, live in a hyper capitalist society where people are trying to get as much productivity for as little amount of money as possible.

And people live in that world every single day. And so when they come to us, they want us to have as much productivity with as little amount, as money as possible. And, um, you know, and again, it's not evil. It's just the way that our world is working right now. And so m people will end up, um, trying, whether they're trying to do the best for the church or they're trying to, or they're just in that mindset kind of constantly. Um, uh, it can happen.

It can happen. Maybe I shouldn't have said it will happen because there are some great churches out there. >> Loren: Yeah, that's immortal. >> Carol Howard: Uh, but it can. >> Loren: Yeah, it definitely can. So this other quote here, um, you write, what happens if we don't forgive? And I think, man, I've been there. I'll just confess, like, I've been there. >> Loren: Holding a grudge against, you know, a congregant, a parishioner.

>> Loren: Uh, you're right. You know, what happens if we don't forgive? Unfortunately, not forgiving tethers us to bitterness and to the people who have hurt us. In extreme cases, a person might not just be a wounded pastor, but a wound collecting pastor. Such people never seek closure. Instead, they persist in, uh, seeing malice and innocent acts, looking for ways to be offended and becoming ever more sensitive to slights. Uh, I think that's such a powerful

quote. And I'll bookend this here with something I read from another, not your same Presbyterian, but Presbyterian, uh, who used to be in your neck of the woods. >> Loren: The late Tim Keller, who certainly I. >> Loren: Would hold some different theological principles then, but he said something that really resonated with me about the importance of forgiveness. Because if we don't forgive, then our actions are inspired by not, um, for reconciliation, but retribution.

Um, so talk about forgiveness and how that can impact and why that's so important. >> Carol Howard: Yeah, I mean, forgiveness is hard. It's just a hard and tricky subject. I just read, ah, kaia oaks, um, just wrote, ah, a book. I think it's called sorry, not sorry, which is really interesting. But, ah, one book that really impacted me was Desmond and Mephone Tutu's book.

Um, that's a father and daughter bishop. Ah, Desmond Tutu, um, wrote, ah, four fold path of forgiveness called a book of forgiving. And, um, so that's just had this tremendous impact on my life. And of course, they're talking about the truth and reconciliation in South Africa and these really extreme, um, acts of heroic forgiveness. And they kind of explain over and over again that forgiveness isn't for the other person, it's for

you. Um, and then I was reading about wound collecting, which I thought was just sort of this fascinating idea. And it was a psychologist who was looking at, um, he was kind of looking at terrorists. >> Loren: Mhm. >> Carol Howard: And then he began to look at like, incels and look at, um, different people. And he came up with this thing of like, wound collectors. And we all know these people, not the terrorists, but these people who cannot let it go

no matter what. And so they begin to hold grudges and more and more grudges, and then they begin to see things and people who don't mean to be even doing anything wrong. So it's just a trap we can get into and become miserable. Um, so forgiveness is tricky. And we try to suss out the different sorts of forgiveness, whether it's legal forgiveness or for forgiveness, or whether it's, um, theological forgiveness or, you know. And so there's different types of forgiveness.

Um, but certainly for me personally, uh, it's still something that's important to strive for. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Loren: Yeah, that's good. So another quote here. And again, I hate this quote, but I think it's important you're right. Or you and James. Right. Uh, as we continue the process toward healing, we need to go back to our stories, reclaim our character in them, rewrite them, and find meaning through them.

So I'll speak for myself here, Carol, as, uh, someone who, like you, grew up in a very concerted context, for me, at least. Ah, I really. I wouldn't say, like, accepted, but I really found a way to, like, make peace with, like, my past. >> Loren: Um, not in a way that, like. >> Loren: I necessarily appreciate everything that I was taught, but I have this weird appreciation. I don't know if that even makes sense.

>> Carol Howard: Yeah. >> Loren: For like, you know, like, I have a. >> Loren: Like, I have a King James bible that I just hold onto dearly, uh, because it's so familiar and, um, meaningful for me. Yet also there's this weird. There's certainly this weird dissonance there. Uh, but talk more about that and what you mean by that quote. >> Carol Howard: Yeah, I mean, I had to do

a similar thing. It was really interesting. Right after I left moody, I know that I definitely kind of rejected everything, and I wouldn't even tell people where I went to school. Um, I would try to hide it and that sort of thing. And then at some point, like, you have to sort of come back to it and embrace it and realize it's part of you, even though it doesn't, um, it's still part of you. Right. And, um, even if you reject it, even if you don't agree with it, it's a peace, and it's gonna miss.

It's gonna be missing unless you embrace, uh, it again. But you can't embrace it in the same way. Right. So you have to begin to think about retelling, um, that story. And the stories are incredibly powerful in how we tell our stories, especially stories when we've been wounded. Um. Uh, the way in which we tell our stories will inform, um, our healing. Viktor, uh, frankl, he wrote man's search for meaning, and, um, uh, just such a

powerful book. I go back to it. I think I feel like I read it every year, um, and learn something different from it every time. He's just, uh, amazing. But he talks about this, rewriting your story and finding meaning. >> Loren: Um. >> Carol Howard: And doing that. Um, sometimes you can even do it. I was able to write books about things, and you sort of reflect back.

>> Loren: Um. >> Carol Howard: I'm kind of hearing in my ear there are so many, uh, womanist theologians who would say, um, I think, who would fight back on that. The idea of trying to redeem suffering. Um, and I want to honor that. Uh, but I also, uh, just want to talk from my personal experience, the sense of when I've gone through difficult issues, difficult problems, if I've been able to retell that story in a way in which I'm not a victim, but I'm a survivor.

>> Loren: Yeah. >> Carol Howard: And. And then a, uh, wounded healer, you know? Um, it can be extremely powerful, not only for, you know, the pastor, but for churches. >> Loren: Right. >> Carol Howard: And their identity. >> Loren: Right. Well, this is a great conversation, and for sake of time, let's leave it there. The name of the book is wounded pastors. Hopefully, uh, I have the right title here. Uh, was it navigating burnout, finding healing, and discerning

the future of your ministry? Is that right? Okay, good. I was, like. >> Carol Howard: I had to look because I forget it, too. >> Loren: Hopefully, the subtitle hasn't changed since I've seen it. >> Carol Howard: Nope. Nope. >> Loren: Let's take a quick break, and we'll come back with some closing questions. All right, we're back with Reverend Carol Howard. So thanks

so much for this conversation. Um, again, I want to recommend her book, wounded pastors with James Fenimore. So check that out. Uh, Carol, I always tell folks, you can take these questions seriously or not if you'd like to, but, uh, if you're a pope for a day, what might that day look like for you? >> Carol Howard: Oh, wow. That would be a good day. Definitely, like, liquidate the assets, give the assets to victims of pedophilia, put those pedophiles in prison.

I would definitely ordain women and, uh, allow for LGBTQ, um, marriage. Be a good day. I'm sure I could get it all done. >> Loren: Speaking of, uh, um, assets, you think? I feel like the catholic church would have enough assets where they could, uh, uh, fund clergy for

quite a long time, right? >> Carol Howard: Yeah, yeah, I think so. I think so, yeah. >> Loren: Um, um, a theologian or historical christian figure you'd want to meet or bring back to life. >> Carol Howard: Well, you know, I did this, uh, uh, I would. I would have said Meister Eckhart just because he's been the person who has really, um, been the most influential on my ministry, I think. Um, but julian of norwich, too. I just did a little tiny devotional on

julian of Norwich. And I wrote it during, um, uh, I wrote it during COVID-19 and it was so helpful because she also wrote during, um, the black plague or went through. Had her visions soon after. Anyways, super, super helpful. So I have probably my star card I'll stick with. >> Loren: Well, those are two good options. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Loren: What do you think history will remember from our current time and place? >> Carol Howard: Oh, ah, that's a good question.

I mean, I'm hoping that, um, I talked about post traumatic growth, and I really believe that we are going to go through a spiritual deepening where we begin to understand God in a different way, where we begin to connect with creation in a different way. I mean, we definitely need, um, to begin to think about our environment, um, and the way in which we care for, uh, creation. So I see a lot of really interesting things coming up, uh, about that.

Um, uh, you know, I just believe that this is going to be a hard, hard, very fruitful time, um, where we begin to do a lot of correcting of, um, uh, what we've kind of veered off on the last. I don't know how many years, um, you know. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Carol Howard: When church is all about, like, I don't know, worship wars. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Carol Howard: Ah, whatever. We've been talking about, you know, making sure the gays are in their place.

Yeah. I mean, you know, that's always. This is the main thing we've been talking about for so many years. So we just need to do a lot of correcting, and I think we're going to. I think we're there, or, uh, we're in that crisis moment. >> Loren: This leads into my final question. What do you hope then? You've kind of spoken to. Maybe not. What do you hope? What do you hope to see? What? Answer that question. How you'd like to, I suppose.

>> Carol Howard: Yeah. Well, even now, if you think about all the congregations in the world, um, you know, the church at large is probably one of the largest landowners, uh,

globally. And, um, if we begin to take that seriously and we begin to care, um, for our, uh, world, and then if we begin to help our congregants do that, uh, we could have this huge impact, um, if we can teach our children how to connect with nature, and, um, they're going through this tremendous nature deficit disorder, uh, right now. Um, so there are just so many things that we can do, uh, particularly, I think, with the environment and connecting, um,

with the environment in a new way. I think that's our big crisis that's coming up, and, um, it may give us an opportunity to think outside of ourselves a little bit. Be good. >> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. >> Loren: Well, I suppose that was not my last question. My last question is, actually, where can people find out about you and connect with you? >> Loren: Get the book, all that? >> Carol Howard: M. Yeah, I think, uh, my.

Oh, there's a wounded pastor's, um, website, so you can look for that, I guess. Um, I have a website, but it's sort of in transition right now. Um, but I'm on Facebook and Twitter and Instagram, Carol Howard, so if you ever want to talk to me. We connected through Facebook, right? >> Loren: Yeah, I believe so. >> Carol Howard: Yeah. Yeah, I'm easy to contact. >> Loren: Well, I really appreciate the conversation. Really appreciate the book. Hope it's helpful to

other pastors like myself. So always leave folks with the word of peace. So may God's peace be with you. >> Carol Howard: Thank you. Also with you. >> Loren: Amen. Um. >> Paul: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian podcast. To learn more about Loren or the podcast, visit future dash christian.com. One more thing before you go. Do us a favor and subscribe to the podcast. And if you're feeling especially generous, leave a review.

It really helps us get the word out to more people about the podcast. The Future Christian podcast is a production of torn curtain arts and resonate media. Our episodes were mixed by Danny Burton and the production support is provided by Paul Romaglevitt. Thanks and go in peace.