Worship and the Body: David Taylor on Why Physicality Matters in Worship

>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in the 21st century. At the Future Christian Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors, and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical wisdom to help you and your community of faith

walk boldly into the future. Whether you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of your faith community, this podcast is designed to challenge, inspire, and equip you with the tools you need for impactful ministry. And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode. >> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today, Loren Richmond, Jr. Welcomes David Taylor

to the program. W. David O. Taylor is Associate professor of Theology and Culture at Fuller Theological Seminary and the author of several books, including Prayers for the Pilgrimage, A Body of Praise, Open and Unafraid, Glimpses of the New Creation, and the Theater of God's Glory.

In addition to a range of scholarly and popular essays, he has also edited several books, including the Art of New Creation, Contemporary Art and the Church, and For the Beauty of the Church, Casting a Vision for the Arts. He serves on the advisory board for Duke Initiatives in Theology and the Arts, as well as IVP Academics Series Studies in Theology and the Arts. An ordained priest, he has lectured widely on the arts from Thailand to South

Africa. In 2016, he produced a short film on the Psalms with Bono and Eugene Peterson. He lives in Austin, Texas with his children and artist wife, Phaedra, with whom he has produced three sets of Illustrators prayer cards. A reminder before we start today's conversation, please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave a review and share Future Christian with a friend. Connect with Loren, Martha and Future Christian on Instagram.

Shoot us an email@laurensonatemediaprouh.com with comments, questions or ideas for future episodes. We appreciate your voice in how we faithfully discern the future of the church. >> Loren: All right, welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. This is Loren Richmond Jr. And I am pleased to be welcoming today David Taylor. So thank you for being here. Welcome to the show. >> David: Hey, thanks for having me. I'm glad to be here.

>> Loren: Great, great, great share. Uh, if you want anything about yourself, uh, we don't know already. >> David: Well, let's see. Recently, uh, in recent years, my wife and I, um, purchased 21 acres just east of Austin, and we have only just recently finished the construction of the house. And, um, my wife comes from multiple generations of farmers. I do not, uh, I appreciate somebody like Wendell Berry, but I'm

not a fanatic. But I have found myself, uh, coming alive, uh, in ways That I had not imagined myself coming alive because so much of my life now involves working uh, the land and um, yeah, it's very life giving. So we live out here surrounded by prairie. Well it used to be corn fields, cotton fields, amaranth, uh, fields. But this uh, we're part of what's uh, an ecology called the Blackland prairie. It kind of goes up, I think up into

North Texas, maybe southern Arkansas. And my wife um, did what's called a master naturalist certificate where she learned everything that can be learned about the local ecology. And one of her hopes is to return this land that has been cultivated for decades and centuries back to its original prairie condition. And I uh, I'm, I'm happy to participate in that. It's uh, it's quite wonderful. >> Loren: Well that's a cool little thing. That's a cool little factoid. Thanks for sharing that.

>> David: Yeah, yeah. >> Loren: Share if you would about kind of your faith journey and background and what that looks like today. >> David: Yeah. So I was born and raised in Guatemala City. Um, my parents were missionaries there. Uh, my parents also put us in a private ah, Austrian school. So I spoke English at home, Spanish with friends at

church and German at school. And you know, from a very age I found myself wired uh, to kind of the global world, um, kind of global context, global church. And I'm grateful for that formative experience. Moved to the States when I was 13 but still it just left a very deep impression on how I perceive the world, how I perceive my place in the world. I am,

you know, technically I'm what's called a third culture, kid. I would think of myself as amphibious, um, you know, occupying different kinds of uh, spaces as it were. Um, and I'm, and you know I was surrounded by people who had a very genuine, sincere faith. Uh, they felt that they had had these life transforming encounters with God. And so it was all very real to them. Like there was always something at stake when we gathered on

Sundays. And I have not always found that to be the case in my adult life here in the um, eventually went to the University of Texas, lost my faith, eventually recovered my faith and then spent uh, five years in seminary and then ten years as a pastor and then five um, years in the PhD world and then I've been teaching theology for ten years. And uh, I would say um, that one of the things that's very important to me is this sense that I feel called to the twin work of

pastoring and scholarship. Um, so I would think of myself as a scholar priest and I sincerely and eagerly want both of those callings to implicate the other. That my ordination is not simply a certificate, but that it not only invites me to be a certain kind of professor, a certain kind of theologian, but it obligates me, it inconveniences my capacity to be, as it were, maximally efficient as an academic. And so, uh, I try to be very involved as much as possible

in our local congregation. Mostly I teach Sunday school with children. Um, so yeah, so I find that very formative. >> Loren: For me, that's a brave spiritual practice, teaching children. >> David: It, it is, uh, it's humbling, but not in a bad way humbling. It's like, it's a wonderful, it's simplifying. Right? >> Loren: Mhm. >> David: Um, things are, things are complicated in the child's life in the way that children can sometimes feel very overwhelmed

by all the moving parts of life. But there's also a kind of simplicity, a kind of, um, they don't dissimulate, uh, they don't pretend usually to be something that they're not in the way that adults can easily, you know, um, present something that is not maybe true to who they are deep, somewhere deep down inside. So kids are not, um, afraid to ask questions, not afraid to ask hard questions and not afraid to ask theological questions. And so I love the opportunity and the challenge to think

concretely. The Gospels are just full of concrete things and the danger of an academic life is it all sort of floats up into abstractions. >> Loren: Right, right. >> David: Um, yeah, I love it.

>> Loren: Yeah. My son is 6 right now and he's really asking a lot of those questions that again, those kind of concrete, like, you know, he asked me about heaven just the other day and you know, he said, uh, this past week or a few weeks ago, hey, my friends at school, not a lot of them believe in God. So it is really challenging.

You know, I'm like thinking, I have so many years of theological education, so many years of experience, how do I make this, how do I answer this question in a way that's gonna like make sense to him? >> David: Right, right. >> Loren: And uh, not just be totally over his head.

>> David: That's really good. Yeah. Actually, let, uh, me just say this just as like an aside, but related to that, I have the possibility of taking a sabbatical in a couple years and yesterday I was working on my application and I have to identify what I would like to do. And there's an academic monograph that I like to do. But the other thing I really have been wanting to do for quite a number of years, I'm wondering if I might finally be able to pull it off is to

write a theology book for children. But that would entail a partnership with artists so very much. >> Loren: Mhm. >> David: Um, you know, like a visual theology, uh, where the art is part of the telling of the story, not merely illustrating, but part of the telling of the story, showing obviously not just telling. And I'm excited and terrified about the project, but m m mostly

excited. Uh, and I want to write it with the kids, so I'll just, I'll probably spend several years workshopping it with uh, kids. So we'll see how that works. >> Loren: Yeah, I want to see that. I want to see that. Come m To be. I want to see that. Come to be. Well, speaking of books, uh, I'm excited to have this conversation and I'm thinking already here about some questions that have, have percolated in my mind around curiosities, uh,

I've been wondering about. So David is the author of the book A Body of Praise, Understanding the role of Our Physical Bodies in Worship. Do you want to just start out with a general like hey, how did this book come to be? What inspired it? >> David: Yeah, I mean I was raised in a tradition, um, let's say a non denominational tradition

that at best thought of the body as neutral, at worst as a problem to be overcome, to be solved, to be superseded, transcended, so on and so forth. When I was in seminary, I did a THM in New Testament and wrote a project investigating the theological significance of Jesus, healing miracles, particularly in the Gospel of Luke. And I came away from that study with sort of the stark realization that I in my entire life had taken bodies much less seriously than Jesus had taken.

And uh, there's a sense of excitement and adventure. Uh, I've always loved sports, so I've always used my body. I've been surrounded by artists, so I've had a sense that artists, you know, are particularly attuned to sensory things. Um, but I think when I came out of that project and then, you know, began years of pastoring, I just kept being uh, haunted by well, what does that mean? You know, what does it mean to live into this reality? Uh, what does it mean to live

more holy? Uh, you know, W H O L L Y And um, and then I would find myself in liturgical settings and uh, uh, sometimes asking folks in these liturgical settings, whether Catholic, Orthodox, Episcopal, Lutheran or otherwise, you know, why do you do what you do? And surprised by how few people were able to articulate why they did all that they did with Their bodies. So I wonder myself initially, well, what if I just produce a little

handbook? Yeah, handbook, you know, a little grammar of the body at worship and little history, a little Bible, a little theology, a little context, culture. Well, I started writing that and then I became curious about other things. >> Loren: Right, right. >> David: What might the sciences tell us and what are some ethical questions we need to attend to, and, uh, how my artists offer unique perspectives and invitations to embody. And so then it just kept getting bigger and big.

And, uh, originally was conceived as a lay handbook, turned into an academic book. But I tried to write it in a way that the English is eminently accessible to anybody who would be curious about this. And I wrote it right around Covid. So I, along with all the humans. Mhm. Was experiencing something that was certainly unique to our generation, not unique to human history, but something that confronted us with, uh, the question of what are bodies for? So, yeah, that's the book.

>> Loren: Yeah. So let's jump in because there's a lot of interesting stuff, at least to me, I found that I want to hear your perspectives on. So I think, I think one thing for sure that stood out to me is you write about posture and physical body movements in our worship, impacting our faith. So talk more about that. >> David: Mhm. Yeah. Okay, so a few things come

to mind. Um, having been raised in a Latin American culture, I. My childhood was shaped by a world where it was more easy for boys to cry. That is a. >> Loren: More easy than girls? >> David: Uh, no, no, I'm sorry, than American. >> Loren: Oh, gotcha. >> David: Gotcha to the American. >> Loren: Yeah. >> David: And so when I moved to the States when I was 13, I discovered. >> Loren: Uh, very clearly, boys don't cry.

>> David: How very uncool, uh, it was to cry. Uh, and that's not so much a posture or a movement, but it is an expression, a way that God has made us, has hardwired us physiologically, neurologically, in order to become attuned to ourselves and attuned to others, and others can be attuned to our

pain. Uh, it's a way for us to be fully present to each other and so wonder to myself, what is it that we are losing if not in what ways are being malformed by, for example, the fact that so many of our social cultures, and then, therefore, ecclesial liturgical cultures have no space, uh, for crying and weeping and those forms of grief. Uh, and yet they're profoundly, you know, psalmic. Um, certainly Jesus is, uh, unashamed

of those things. And how might our grief be more, um, sweetly and richly shared with one Another if we felt free to cry in public. Um, so that'd be like, one. Um. I've often been curious about silence and shouting. Two extremes, but both are in the Psalms, right? And the Psalms have functioned as this determinative worship prayer book for Christians for hundreds and hundreds of years. And yet we either pick and choose our way through the Psalms or we have what I might call the canon within

the canon of the Psalter. And yet I think there is something about God that we cannot know except by way of silence and likewise by way of shouting. And we know that, right, when we find ourselves in certain places in nature. And there's that. What we might call a holy hush, right, that we're feeling and sensing and knowing and being, you know, regarded as it were by creation, in this silence that makes us feel, um, simultaneously small in creation,

but also. But also, uh, profoundly seen and grounded and fully alive, right? Conversely, you know, if you've ever been to a concert or a sporting event and you find yourself swept up, willingly swept up, right? Um, in this roar of excitement, right? And your whole body is just full. Like, this is the expansion. Expansion of excitement and joy and erupts and shouting. Uh, it's that sense of, like, yes, you know, there's some quality of our humanity that we tap into and that we share with others.

And I wonder, are we missing out? Right? And the Psalms are repeatedly saying, you know, roar, exalt, shout. But we don't. Like, why don't we? It's right there. And then maybe the last is, uh, there was this artist named Grunvald, early 1500s, was commissioned, um, uh, to create a painting for the Monastery of St. Anthony, which had a very specific call to serve those with skin diseases of some kind or another. As he paints. It's very famous, uh,

this triptych, uh, of Jesus. And he represents him with the same kind of skin lesions that

they have. And so what did it mean, um, for these individuals who found themselves in various degrees of pain on account of their skin, to be able to see the Maker of heaven and earth, to see the Savior and the Redeemer in a way that it was so intimately familiar to them, this Christ had come so close that he identified what, uh, are we missing when our spaces of worship don't have something like that for us to behold with our

physical eyes that then might bear witness to our. The eyes of our heart, you know, as the New Testament puts it, and then enable us to see the world around us and sort of transform transfigured Ways. Um, all these things that we, you know, see all our senses, all the things that we do, our hands raised, our hands held open hands, uh, that humility, hands in honor, postures of honor, um, how might that form our humanity? Uh, more holy in both senses of the word. Holy.

>> Loren: Yeah, yeah. I want to get into this deeper because this past week, my wife and I, with our kids, we attend like this kind of like family type small group that's like a meal and conversation at church. And I guess the church is involved in a study through some organization that's of course funded through Lilly, because Lilly, you've probably seen this, is doing these, this shelling out tons of money to try to study children's faith formation. And

this was like a small group. You know, there's probably 15, 20, I don't remember in this kind of group conversation. So the questions was being raised about, like, you know, how do you help? How do you foster faith in your own family? How do you think we can help foster faith? And it seemed to be like I was trying to. I mean, I'm just a layperson there essentially in that, in this church context space.

So I'm trying not to overstep my bounds. Um, but it seemed to be like a lot of, like, what I would call, like, performative in from families of this, like, you know, we. We kind of just make it up as we go type thing. And. And maybe I was mishearing, but almost like a limiting, uh, or diminishing of practices. So this is. I'm being long winded here, but I'm thinking about what is the importance of physical faith practices, Physical spiritual practices of retaining faith.

>> David: Like, how is what we do with our bodies related directly or indirectly to the formation of wealth, faith? Is that right? >> Loren: Let me add another story if I can. So years ago, I was working as a hospital chaplain as a CP intern, and I walked into this. I got a page in the middle of night and walked into this secure room

as a psych hold room. And they're literally sitting outside, they're literally strapping this guy down who was having some kind of overdose reaction, I don't know exactly what. And he's flailing all over. I'm freaking out internally, right, thinking, what the heck? Why did these people call me? And I can't remember someone saying, like, he had supposedly uttered the word chaplain or. I don't know. I'm like, I cannot believe that this guy, this guy really asked for chaplain.

But, uh, you know, I'm. I'm young. I don't know better. I'm like, this is my job. So they finished getting him strapped down and the security guards and kind of come out and take off their gloves

and take a deep breath. And I walk in with like a Bible and I'm like, hey, my name's Loren, I'm a chaplain and I have no idea what to do. And I start reading some scripture from. I think it was Psalms 90 or Psalm 91. I can't remember exactly which. >> David: Right. >> Loren: And then all of a sudden, like, I recognize this guy starts to pray in a very broken manner. The Lord's Prayer. >> David: Yeah. >> Loren: And I just, I was completely

struck. Like, that was 10, 15 years ago. I'm still struck by that moment. >> David: Yeah, I mean, that's really beautiful. And I mean, our Catholic and Orthodox friends would say, yes, quite precisely, uh, that the rituals of our body, when matched to communal rituals, have a capacity to form, ah, our humanity, to orient our sense, ah, of the world around us. Sort of as a parallel. There's um, a book called After Image in

which this film scholar. I did a study of, I don't know, it's like six or seven very famous Catholic filmmakers like Francis Ford Coppola and Albert Hitcock and Scorsese. And one of the things that he was, the case that he was making to the reader is that all these extraordinarily successful filmmakers making really, really, uh, important films over the course of the

last half century. They were all raised Catholic, and the Catholic sensorium, as it were, of the liturgy had shaped how they perceived their calling and their work. And uh, so what we do with our bodies from an early age is and can shape Christ likeness in us. Uh, um, one thing that our church started doing after Covid, when it was safe to be in each other's physical, proximate spaces was during the Lord's. We say the Lord's Prayer every Sunday.

Uh, our senior minister, our rector, invited us to hold hands. And uh, holding hands is such a funny thing. In some contexts it's the most natural thing in the world. Like when NFL athletes at national anthem or when somebody's injured, they'll hold hands. >> Loren: Mhm. >> David: But get them outside of the stadium is a different context. >> Loren: Right. >> David: It means something else and it causes maybe discomfort.

But our pastor was encouraging us to lean into the actual physicality of each other's presence. You know, we have, you know, uh, people of all ages. Maybe we have visitors. Um, but the, but the act of holding is a way to say, I am bound to you. You are not a. Take it or Leave it. Member of Christ's body. >> Loren: Right. >> David: And so how might those practices in a liturgical setting then translate into the rest of our

lives? Um, I write about this in the book, like, this question, which is not a simplistic question, or it's not simple, uh, like, who's up front? Or what testimonies are shared. Is it the testimony of the bold and the beautiful and the brawny? Uh, or is it the testimony, the witness of the broken and all kinds of brokenness in our world, you know, physical, mental, emotional, relational, and so on? Um, what is it that we see? Um, what are the stories that are

told? And I don't mean just in art, just in our own lives. And so. Well, in actual fact, um, I'll say this, and then I'll pause here, but, uh, in the chapter on ethics, which is the most terrifying to write of the whole book, I truly wrote it with a great deal of fear and trembling. But we had a family in our congregation, have two children with very specific disabilities, one with down syndrome and the other with what's called a swan, a syndrome without an name.

And, you know, different levels of intellectual and physical disability. And so when I began writing this, and I did, you know, a good deal of reading, but I wanted to talk to, you know, real humans that dealt with this in real ways, not in, like, bookish ways. So I asked the parents, like, what's it like for you? I asked them, what would you want from us as a congregation? Like, what forms of hospitality are you not

receiving? And that was wonderful. But the thing that was so beautiful was to hear the parents talk about how, inasmuch as our. Our worship is, let's call it liturgical, is very sort of ritualized. That their children, Henry, uh, and Laila, have learned the good news in their bodies by standing, sitting, kneeling, prostrate, you know, by walking. Um, Layla, when she was 13, was invited to be a crucifer. And we have different weights of crosses. And so she could only

manage, you know, the. The lightest weight, wooden one. But it was such a beautiful, um, image of Christ's body to see her fully engaged, joyfully, very reverently engaged in her, in, you know, unique ways to her. Um, and the things that were said over and over were part of the, you know, her spiritual armature, as it were. Um, and so, I don't know, just the things that, you know, as they say, caught, not taught, are rather powerful. >> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. So I'm thinking again, I just

had on. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the book Worship, uh, in an Age of Anxiety, J. Michael Jordan, he's kind of an evangelical. >> David: Uh, yeah. >> Loren: Okay. You're. >> David: I am, Yeah. I have it, actually. >> Loren: Yeah. I really like the book. I think his episode will release here before this. And then, of course, I'm thinking of the theologian. That's really resonated with me a lot.

Nandra Root, both who kind of talk about the kind of performative nature of faith. And I'm thinking of like, Michael, uh, Jordan talks about this. Similarly, you write about the value of communal singing versus, like, again, as Jordan in his context writes about, like, the big band and the big production of evangelical worship. And I don't want to just bang on,

you know, evangelical worship per se. But again, I'm thinking in this context of, like, how, like Root would say we have to, like, perform our faith has to be something like we endeavor to produce within ourselves. >> David: Right. >> Loren: And again, I'm thinking from the context of, like, how, like, I've been in church recently where I did not want to say the words that were on the screen. Like, my faith was not in a place where I was

like. Right. Full hearted. That. But I felt like there was some benefit to me in repeating those words. >> David: Yeah. I mean, Loren, I'm just going to say amen, and we've been there. And I think if you're honest enough, you've been a Christian long enough, you know, exactly that experience. Having grown up in a. In a predominantly Catholic country, I don't think I bring to my, you know, adult academic studies a, ah, romantic view of how, uh, the liturgy, as it

were, forms us in magical ways. It doesn't, uh. There's nothing magical or automatic about doing any ritual. Right. And I would likewise say no ecclesial liturgical tradition has a corner on the market of mindless, heartless worship. I mean, it could be a very simple, you know, sort of. >> Loren: Yeah, yeah. And Jordan for sure talks about that.

>> David: Yeah, yeah. So, you know, Baptist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Methodist, anybody can be mindless and heartless, no matter what they say or don't say. Um, but I do think again that there is a unique power in being formed and reformed by what we

perform. If I can put all those forms side by side, um, obviously, you know, to borrow language from, you know, the second Vatican, uh, gatherings in the 60s, we want our worship somehow to be full, active and conscious, um, all things being equal in the sense that when you see the words on the screen or on a piece of paper or in a book, and you think to yourself, I don't Feel it. I think that can become a really beautiful form of confession. Humility to say in this moment, oh God, I

do not. And yet in humility, uh, and in trust, with whatever trust I can muster, um, I say these words and what I tell our people, you know, whenever I have a chance to preach or otherwise, is it's okay to come on Sunday morning and simply sit and do nothing else. The fact that you've like put your body in this place is already something that we can celebrate. I also say maybe you can't even manage to come and there's a grace for that as well.

>> Loren: Mhm. >> David: Also there are inertias that take over, you know, like the whole Covid post. Covid. You know, all these studies have been done of people that got into the habit, Right. Of not leaving their physical homes and gathering with other physical bodies and physical spaces. And eventually that acquired an

inertia and that took over. Right. So there's a positive inertia in us gathering, doing things in our bodies, performing certain actions, saying certain words and trusting that um, the ritual will um, form us in life giving ways. And to my students I say, well, it's just, I mean the simplest thing we can do is distinguish between ritual and ritualistic form and

formalistic. You, uh, know, just, we just add ism to anything we can say. Anything can be abused. And of course Christians have been attention to that for hundreds of years. Um, but I think there is something decisive in choosing to say, I mean in our families, right. In our friendships we don't always feel it, uh, we don't always feel love. But it is meet and right to use the language of the book of Common Prayer to open my body up to my wife. When we're, you know,

kind of grumpy at each other. Instead of closing myself off to speak words that I know are my heart will maybe eventually catch up. And I think that can happen when we gather in worship. >> Loren: Yeah, yeah. Let's shift gears a little bit because I do want to explore the conversation around seeing arrangements. You have this really interesting conversation, uh, about midway through the book where you talk about the three seating

arrangements. So I really kind of got into church architecture as I began to kind of just pay attention more. And I was fascinated, especially with like mainline context, especially at least in my neck of the woods where churches have like, they have kind of the original sanctuary that was pretty modest, often built like in the 40s, early 50s and then kind of after like the post war boom, these huge magnificent sanctuaries were built, you know, like late 50s,

60s. And I noticed this real, what I felt at least to be this tension or contradiction of what is often proclaimed in mainline churches of real, progressive, inclusive, uh, relational theology with these sanctuary spaces that are, that are very, uh, upward oriented and separated. Talk more about, uh, how worship spaces shape our faith. >> David: Right. Yeah. And a book before a body of praise. One of the books that I wrote is called Glimpses of the New Creation.

And in that book I explore how the different media of arts form us. And the basic argument I make in that book is that every practice of art, whatever it may be, every incident of art both opens up and closes down possibilities to form, to form our knowledge and love of God in some fashion. And I try to be, uh, as generous and hospitable in the book to be able to say, you know, I'm not going to come down on the Pentecostals. I'm not going to come down on, you know, the

High Church Lutherans. I simply want you to understand that what you do is not neutral. >> Loren: Yeah. >> David: Uh, and you may be missing out on the fullness of what God may have for you. It doesn't mean you can, you know, build new cathedrals. Um, but be mindful of the fact that every space retains associations. Every space is generating a certain way of being in the world individually and corporately or communally. And so I talk about the three spaces, one which we'll call them

longitudinal, sort of. You think of like the Gothic cathedral, Neo Gothics, a long nave and you have the transepts and the chancel and so on and so forth. And the idea there is that the, uh, Christian life is a pilgrimage and you're coming from the world, the place of the profane, which is the, the Latin for outside the temple. You enter in and there's a baptismal font and you know, it's a pilgrimage. And then, you know, there's the New Jerusalem, hopefully. And um, that's beautiful.

Um, that kind of space resonates, uh, architecturally with images of God is majestic, God is holy, other, God is sovereign. You know, those images that we find in Holy Scripture. It's very difficult, however, for people in that space to have any sense or grasp or feel both in the literal and the figurative senses of those terms. For the body, Christ is a family. Mhm. It's just our bodies are not oriented. No. Every generation of Christians is reacting to these kinds of things.

And 20 years ago is the emergent church that was, uh, very fired up about many things. And I was in the middle of some of that fired upness. And they wanted to return to a different idea, idea of being the body of Christ, a different way of worshiping. And therefore they all found other spaces in which to do this. Right. Many of them did in homes, which is a very kind of natural place, you know, to explore alternative ways of worshiping together. So there's a

longitudinal. There's um, sort, uh, of what I'll call sort of the semicircular, the uh, half moon. And there's a wonderful, um, C.R.C. ah, church up in Grand Rapids that I visited and had a chance to talk to some of them and to understand how the half moon is a way to gather around the table. So everybody has sort of like an equal sight line. Um, but it's not a full circle because as reformed people, they wanted to underscore the fact that we do not enclose or master God in this sense.

Symbolically. At the table there's a window and it opens up a way of saying, hey, when we come to this table, we are always recipients, recipients. And then the last, um, seating arrangement is, uh, the face to face. Um, which I say, well, we see in the upper room. Ah, many places in the Gospels. A lot of house churches have that very keen sense of like we are beholding one another. It's very

intimate. Um, but conversely, it's difficult to get a feel for otherness and majesty and so called transcendence in those kinds of spaces. But, you know, not every church can change. But maybe there are micro changes that enable people to be, I don't know, um, more fully and richly related to each other as. As the body of Christ. >> Loren: Yeah, I'm thinking of. There's a church in Minneapolis. Well, I guess it's. Technically

there's three churches in one building. I'm not sure if you've heard this one's a disciples church. One's, I think ucc. I can't remember what the other one is, but they have three worship spaces and part of their practice is to rotate through the worship spaces throughout the year. On my. Again, I don't know what the regularity is, but I've always found that interesting to that perspective of changing perspectives. >> David: Yeah, there are ways that we can,

you could say, disrupt. Uh, it doesn't have to be disruptive. It can just start to be creative. And I think maybe one of the ways that the Catholic tradition has creatively taken into account sort of the fixity of. They're usually their usual. Not like 2000 years worth, but you know, sort of a certain Style of architecture is. Is all the feast days are opportunities to become ambulatory, you

know, so there's. There can be an opportunity to walk around or to go outside, you know, uh, uh, you know, for, um, the triumphal entry, you know, reenactment. Uh, and so getting out of the space. And we do that in our church as well. Everybody. The service starts outside in the parking lot, and we walk together. And it's silly and it's goofy, and, you know, uh, there's nothing terribly orchestrated about all our voices, but there's something convivial. >> Loren: Right, right, right.

>> David: About that, um, that I think is, you know, really. Ah, beautiful. >> Loren: Yeah. I'm just thinking, uh, I'll try to be generous with my words here, but I'm just thinking about, you know, some traditions where it's like the doors are closed, the lights are off, there's a countdown. You know, you walk in in darkness, can't see your neighbor. >> David: Yes. No, that. That. I've seen that.

I mean, speaking of the emergent church, I remember lots of, you know, folks, maybe pastors, who had the authority and power to make these kinds of changes. Removing pews and putting sofas and chairs. >> Loren: Right, right. >> David: And, uh, that was their way maybe to swing to the opposite end of the pendulum. Like, we want to be at home. Come as you are. Nobody's the boss of anybody. It's sort of all these things that sort of collect into. Let's be a different people together.

Eventually, sofas and chairs start talking. You know, they acquire a gravitational force field of their own, and they move people in certain directions that, you know, may fight other things. >> Loren: Right. >> David: That, uh, church leaders would like to form in, folks. And so there's nothing neutral. That's the point of that book that I wrote. There's nothing neutral. Uh, every space, every practice of music, you know, opens up and closes down. For example, ways of

knowing God. So, yeah, so in that book, I actually do a close study of oceans by Hillsong. >> Loren: Oh, yeah. Okay. >> David: And, uh, In Christ Alone, sort of the Reformed Baptist, you know, song. >> Loren: And yes. >> David: A, uh, a spiritual. And I sort of do a close analysis of the music and the lyrics. And, um, just a way to say, hey, if you unpack the engine of all this stuff, it's the difference between a blender engine and a Boeing engine.

They're both engines, but they're making different things possible in the

world. >> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. Let's do one more question here before we take a break. >> David: Okay. >> Loren: I want to talk about. On page 154. Um, I'm going to read a quote here. You write over against the prevailing assumption of our contemporary world. Our bodies are not ours to do with as we please. Our bodies belong to Christ's flesh and his flesh belongs to us. So you kind of wrote about it there and I kind of gave you a heads up. I want to ask this question.

>> David: Yeah. >> Loren: I similarly recognize this dynamic, I think in our. At least as I'm interpreting that quote in our world today, where it's very much like a bodily autonomy. Uh, you know, I'm sort of, I'm sort of flabbergasted. I don't know if you've seen this on social media. These folks who are like anti kids and I have kids.

I recognize it's a huge commitment, a lot of work, and I've had an experience literally just yesterday with my middle school daughter that's terrifying, frankly. >> David: Um, Right. >> Loren: And I can't expand on that. So I understand kids a lot. But I also think this kind of time that we're focused on where it's like it's me centered, essentially, I'm

the biggest thing. And I guess my bias is I'm a believer that, uh, believing in something bigger than yourself or connecting with something bigger than yourself and giving of yourself is the best way to find yourself rather than this kind of inverse that I think I see. And I'm assuming your quote relates to that. Um, you know, taking care of me and my body, you know, my, my body's purpose is to serve me first and foremost.

>> David: Yeah. I think obviously, you know, that part of the chapter or the book should be titled Handle with Care. >> Loren: Yeah. >> David: Ideas should be handled with care. People should be handled with care. Our neighbors who irk us should, ah, be handled with care. All things should be handled with care. Um, probably what I'm doing there is attempting to

identify extremes. It's easier, I think, to identify extremes than to identify the middles in which we're attempting in fits and starts. Right. Um, on one extreme obviously is slavery. That's the idea that my body wholly belongs to someone else to do it as they wish. That is to be rejected. On the other end, perhaps more, um, we identify it with greater difficulty because we're Americans, is the idea that my body is my property.

>> Loren: Mhm. >> David: Which to Americans seems to be the most normal way to think of my body. Uh, perhaps because we have forgotten, you know, that our three ideals are not actually life liberty in the pursuit of happiness. The original actually was life liberty in the pursuit of property. Um, so as Americans, property is Very important to us. I have nothing wrong with property. >> Loren: I have property.

>> David: But the extreme right is that all the entire earth I'll use this verb, is colonized as property. Everything is perceived as property. Right. Acquisition and retention of property. And then bodies get caught up in this, you know, philosophical way of perceiving the world.

And I think I'm pressing against that. To say, as Christians, as people who want to be formed by holy Scripture and by the life of Jesus, we see that bodies in the beginning are a gift, uh, in the middle are a gift, and at the end are gift. And because they are a gift, they are to be handled with care. They're handled with love. Um, and there are things, yeah, that are mined by God's grace to enjoy fully. Um, but my body's not something I own. I think, uh, that's the wrong

verb. My body is something that is entrusted to me, uh, and therefore I love it. Well, I'm to love my neighbor as I love myself. Um, but it's not. It's not. I don't own it. And therefore to do with as I please. >> Loren: Yeah. >> David: I think that just sends us in very, very dangerous places. I mean, even with the best of intentions. >> Loren: Right. >> David: Property mindset, I think, gets us in trouble. Because the moment I think of myself as property, and then I

see others, they have property. Well, then we're in a commercial, you know, um, frame of mind. This is sort of a, you know, exchange of services and goods, and bodies become part of the

thing that we exchange. And I think, you know, like the Christian tradition uses this language of the great exchange, the mysterious, uh, exchange of Christ's body for our bodies, like our bodies become part of his so that our bodies can become true, truly, you know, the bodies, the beautiful, beloved bodies that God made them in

the beginning. And I think it's a way of thinking, but I think it's a way of living that gets us into trouble the moment we think of our bodies as property, uh, that we possess autonomously. >> Loren: Um, yeah. Tell me if this is tracking. If I'm following again. I'm just thinking of my day yesterday where I was planning to come home from work and. Or not come home, but just head to the gym straight after work. Because I like taking care of my body. Right.

Keeping my body fit, which we would say is important, but I'm thinking of it from your entrusted context. There was a situation at home that I felt like my physical presence would be supportive. I don't know, uh, which adverb. Adjective to use. There would be A benefit to my family at home. So, I mean, does that track with what you're saying? Like, if we're thinking purely like, my body is my own, my first priority is to my body, rather than my body is entrusted to me to do good in the world,

to serve others, but also to serve. I don't know if that makes sense. >> David: I mean, I would say yes. Right. Uh, like, if we think of our bodies as a gift that is entrusted to us, um, and then the primary lens or software that's running inside of us is a gift economy, that changes the way I relate to the earth, way that I relate to my enemies.

Uh, it changes the way that I relate to the people closest to me who perhaps see all the ways in which I fail in bodily acts of love, you know, um, and, you know, the primal, uh, sin led to the primal temptation, which is to hide. Um, hide, fight, and run. >> Loren: Yeah. >> David: Um, and, uh, so we hide in our bodies, we fight with our bodies. Right. And ultimately we're doing

violence to our bodies and the bodies of others. But if my body is fundamentally a gift, graced by God in Christ, empowered by the spirit, uh, to be a vehicle, an instrument of healing, uh, and all the other goods of God's reign, then, um, it changes.

I mean, okay, I'm going to say this, and I hope I don't get too in trouble, but I remember not long after Covid, we were driving somewhere like a year after M. And, uh, driving through a small town, and, uh, it was like, by like a little shopping center, and I saw these people, and I first thought it was, um. Uh, it was like a car wash, you know, like a bunch of questions in a car wash. But they had big cardboard signs up. I couldn't see them. And

then drove by and looked back. I was like, oh, oh, they're protesting the vaccine. >> Loren: Interesting. >> David: Uh, and on their. All their cardboards was my body, my choice. >> Loren: Right. >> David: And I thought, oh, this is so fascinating. It's just like a quintessentially American. And I don't want to get into. Into the politics of it all, but just sort of like that was the most natural phrase, as it were, the most natural way for Americans to think of these

things. And I guess I'm one would say, I think for followers of Jesus there is not just the better. Like, it's like an upgrade. I think it's just like ontologically radically better. Um, and if I can. >> Loren: If I can take this step further as I'm thinking about this, like, I'm sure you've seen the news, right, that young men are increasingly moving, conservative, moving into church

spaces. And it seems like I don't want to make too broad a judgment here that there's this kind of like, encouragement of young masculinity as, like, celebrating them and their bodies. And I think, uh, I want to like, echo what you're saying here. I was having a conversation on this with one of my good friends who also has a son, about teaching your sons that manliness is about. He didn't use this word, but I think your word here fits with what

he's saying. This kind of gift economy, like men have privilege and we're supposed to use that privilege or that what has been entrusted to us to serve others. >> David: Yeah, I mean, I would say yes. And, uh,

um, I wrote a book of prayers that came out recently, Prayers for the Pilgrimage. One of the prayers that I had included there was. I had originally titled it. It was like something like For Being Jesus. Y. And then the publisher's like, well, maybe you can come up with a better. And I was like, well, I think what I'm trying to do is to. Is to name in this prayer all the things that Jesus. All the ways that Jesus handles other people's bodies with care.

Uh, and saying, you know, to myself and to my son, let's do that. You do that and, um, that'll generate life. That'll be life giving, uh, to your mother, to your sister, to your friends, um, you know, to be in the world as Jesus was in the world. Um, and, uh, I mean, I think I saw this, this article that you're referencing. And I mean, we just live in such catastrophically messed up times, but, um, you know, in terms just get us in trouble or they are trouble.

Um, and so I guess maybe what I'm trying to do with myself, you know, um, and in this book is to say, what if we simply tracked how it is that Jesus handles people's bodies. And in fact, uh, the point that I make in the book is not only does he handle others with care. He himself, for nine months in his mother's womb, was handled with supreme care. He was totally enveloped in this care filled place, uh, of, uh, comprehensive loving touch.

Um, and I suggest that that can be like a metaphor for then he emerges and then, uh, offers his body as the life of the world and offers comprehensive care, uh, in and through his body and that we are now his body in our own places. >> Loren: So, yeah, well, well, let's leave it there for the sake of time. This is good conversation Again, the book is that we discussed today, A Body of Praise. Understanding the role of our physical bodies in worship.

David, let's make sure. Send me a link for the other book so I can include that in the show notes. Let's take a quick break and we'll come back with some closing questions. >> David: All right. >> Loren: We're back with David Taylor and really, uh, enjoyed the conversation. Appreciate your time. Hopefully it's helpful for our listeners. Let's talk, uh, about some of these closing questions. You're welcome to take these as seriously or not as you'd like

to. Some folks get tripped up over the Pope question, but what would you do with your, uh, if you're a Pope for a day? >> David: Okay, so I thought about this again. I grew up in a Catholic country, so, you know, there's a lot of talk of the, uh, of the Pope amongst my friends. Friends, uh, El Papa, as they would call it. Uh, if, uh, I were Pope for the day, I would tell, uh, my secretary that, uh, I'm going to spend the entire day looking at all the art, ah, in the Vatican

collection. Alternatively, I would tell my secretary that I'm going to disguise myself and go for morning prayer or whatever, morning Mass in some small church in Rome. Disguise and just kind of slip into the pew, uh, and, and experience, uh, life that way. Just kind of like, take a peek. >> Loren: Um. >> David: Um. I imagine that the Pope does not get many opportunities just to chill out. >> Loren: Yeah, Yeah. >> David: I think kind of fun.

>> Loren: A theologian or historical Christian figure you'd want to meet or bring back to life. >> David: Okay, so I did think about this, and I apologize in advance. I'm going to cheat. >> Loren: Yeah. >> David: I would like a dinner party. >> Loren: Okay. >> David: And, uh, it's going to be a dinner party for six, myself included. And I'm going to invite five musicians. And I would love to

see the conversation that unfolded. I'm going to invite Ephraim, the Syriac, the Syrian, uh, who's very profoundly influential, uh, in the Eastern Orthodox tradition. Hildegarde, uh, Bingen, uh, Palestrina, a very influential and, um, polyphonic Renaissance music, Bach and Fanny Crosby. And I just want to ask them what was it like? Uh, you know, because you guys all made new music, you know, in your time, and we have worship wars in our time. Did you guys. I mean, I know

they actually had worship wars in their time. I just want to hear them talk about it. I think it'd be so fun. >> Loren: That is a broad. That's a broad spectrum. I guess you could make it seven and maybe invite Chris, Tomlin, just see what happens. >> David: I mean, I could, um. >> Loren: Yeah. >> David: I mean, uh, Yeah, I mean, uh, sure, let's listen. >> Loren: I'll take them. >> David: Uh, Chris, I don't know.

>> Loren: Is that. Am I making assumptions? Who would be, like, the definitive, like, worship guy? >> David: No, no, Chris is, you know, certainly in, you know, the. The kind of, like, contemporary worship world. >> Loren: Right. >> David: Yeah. You know, nobody really cares about him more. Kind of classical, you know, conservatory kind of music. >> Loren: Yeah. >> David: Um, it'd be that or like, I once hung out with the Hillsong London. Uh, folks.

>> Loren: Uh, okay. >> David: M. David Crowder organized this crazy worship conference, invited me, and I found myself in the green room surrounded by all unusual bedfellows, including Hillsong. They were, uh. I don't know how, uh. How much you can capitalize bold and italicize. Cool. They were so cool. And I was like, yeah, nope, I'm not cool. Uh, I'm not cool. I'm okay. But I, uh, don't know. Hillsong, you know, they're pretty big.

>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. >> David: But, you know, who's. >> Loren: Like, the. We're getting way into the weeds here. But I'm like, who's the one? Is it, like, Darlene Sheck, maybe? She. She gets in there. >> David: I mean, she's Certainly, like, the 90s, you know, forerunner, um, of. Of this whole, you know, era. Um, I mean, Chris. Yeah. I mean, he's. He's. I mean, he's pretty influential. Uh, I mean, like, he. He changed. But these days, you know,

they talk about the big four. Hillsong, Right. Ethel, Passion and Elevation. >> Loren: Yeah. >> David: Ones that show up on the Christian stations. Um, but, like, a singular figure. Sure. I'll go. So, yeah, Chris is just always, like, you know, top five. >> Loren: As long as it's, uh, not. Who's the Elevation guy? As long as it's not him. Right? No offense to my.

>> David: No, I don't know. I mean, I will tell you. I'm friends with Matt Redmond, who is another figure in that world, and he very, like, wonderfully, kindly, humbly reached out a year ago and said, I'd love to partner with a theologian, and I'd love all the songwriters that I know to have opportunities to partner with pastors and theologians, because I think that church's music is not good. M. Better, and it's only going to get better if we have better relationships.

>> Loren: Let me say this. Uh, I won't say his name, but elevations. Pastor maybe could do well to. >> David: Okay, wow. >> Loren: Moving on. Uh, what do you think history will remember from our current time and place? >> David: Um. I mean, gosh, I mean, I, I don't know. Um, really I'll be curious to know. Uh, I mean the thing that comes to mind is that no generation is exempt from corruptibility.

I, I and the truth of the matter is I really would like to not excuse myself from that judgment. Judgment. Um, I'd like to, I like for everybody else to be corruptible by their, you know, cultural, uh, context. But I'm sure I am. Um, I mean this is the thing that I've wondered, you know, for the past eight years and counting.

>> Loren: Mhm. >> David: Uh, has there been a massive failure of discipleship in our churches at the local kind of, you know, ho hum, um, ordinary, you know, shape of our lives that makes it possible for things to now surface so egregiously. Um, like that stuff doesn't happen overnight, right? Um, I don't know. I mean, yeah. >> Loren: Well, how about this? What do you hope then for the future?

Christianity. >> David: Uh, that's, Yeah, I think it's like my hope is related to sort of the lament. But I think I would hope that we in this country, I'll just speak for us, might become more fully attuned, related with and accountable to the global church. I think we get in trouble more quickly when um, we get sucked under our own echo chambers. And uh, wherever we may find ourselves theologically, ecclesially, politically, we all

have echo chambers. And I think Leslie Newbegin, um, the wonderful missionary theologian, wrote a book called Foolishness to the Greeks. And he talks about how one of the practices that the global church should take on is members, uh, of Christ's body around the globe should just continuously hold mirrors up to one another to show where it is that the good news is being corrupted, you know, um, where we are being malformed in ways that we just cannot

perceive. So I think if we were able to find ourselves not just on, you know, social media, reading about things, but traveling, uh, if possible, inviting and participating in meals and worship together and mission together. I think that would, I think it could be very powerful. >> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I really appreciate your time, really appreciate the conversation. Again, uh, want to recommend the book and your work. Uh, tell folks where they can connect with you, all that stuff.

>> David: Yeah. So, uh, formerly called Twitter. >> Loren: Yeah. >> David: Uh, which we'll still call Twitter. Uh, it's kind of the name that usually shows up on books W. David O. Taylor. On Instagram, somebody actually had that collection of letters. I was surprised, but they had one follower on Instagram, so there's no way I could recover it. Uh, so it's David taylortheologian so Instagram is kind of more personal. Twitter is just more

ideas. Then I have a website w. David O. Taylor um, yeah, you know, I try to be a gracious presence. I wrote a, uh, series of Beatitudes for being on social media. So I try to abide by those Beatitudes. >> Loren: Yeah. Yeah, great. Well, always, uh, leave folks with a word of peace. Speaking of, uh, rituals and practices here. So may God's peace be with you. >> David: And also with you. >> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.

The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate Media. We love to hear from our listeners with questions, comments and ideas for future episodes. Visit our website@uh, future-christian.com and find the Connect with Us form at the bottom of the page to get in touch with Martha or Loren. But before you go, do us a favor, subscribe to the POD to leave a review. It really helps us get this out to more people. Thanks and go in peace.