What is the Church? And What is it for? Exploring Ecclesiology with David Emerton

>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in the 21st century. At the Future Christian Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical wisdom to help you and your community of faith

walk boldly into the future. Whether you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of your faith community, this podcast is designed to challenge, inspire, and equip you with the tools you need for impactful ministry. And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode. >> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today, Loren Richmond Jr. Welcomes the Rev. Dr. David Emerton to the program. David is director of Saint Mellitus College,

East Midlands, United Kingdom. He previously served as Principal of the School of Discipleship in the Diocese of Southwell and Nottingham and as a Teaching Fellow in Systematic and Historical Theology at the University of Aberdeen. David is ordained as priest in the Church of England and prior to his training for ordination he worked in the City of London as a solicitor. He is the author of God's Church Community, the Ecclesiology of Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Types of Five Theological Approaches.

A, uh, reminder before we start today's conversation, please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave a review and share Future Christian with a friend. Connect with Loren, Martha and Future Christian on Instagram. Shoot us an email at laurensonatemediapro with comments, questions or ideas for future episodes. We appreciate your voice in how we faithfully discern the future of the church.

>> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. This is Loren Richmond Jr. And today I'm pleased to be welcoming the Reverend Dr. David Emerton. Thank you so much for being here. >> David: Thank uh, you, uh, thank you for the invite. It's great to be with you and uh, it's great to um, come along and um, speak on your podcast. >> Loren: Yeah, I'm glad to have you. Well, let's take a

moment just to share a little bit about yourself. Anything else you want our listeners to know about you. >> David: Um, well, um, um I'm based in the uk um, I'm currently um, uh the director of ah, Civilitis Colleges Midlands, which is a Church of England, um, theological college or seminary. Um, you would probably describe it as uh, over in the States. Um, so we train men and women for ordained ministry but also offer undergraduate and postgraduate uh, programs of study in theology.

Um, before that uh, I worked um, at a diocesan level, uh, within uh, the Church of England and uh, before that I spent a little bit of time up in Aberdeen where I did some further study or My doctorate study, um and also was a teaching fellow there. Ah and ah a long time before that ah I was involved in parish ah ministry um in London and I started out life really. Um, well I did start out life as a corporate lawyer working in the

city of uh London. So um, my background uh really isn't theology in that sense in terms of how I started out life. I um read history as ah an undergraduate at the University of Edinburgh and then kind of passed through law school uh on my way to um work as a solicitor in uh central uh London. Uh so that's just a little bit about really my background uh to be honest with you. >> Loren: Well I'm uh grateful to have this conversation with you.

I often tell people one of my favorite things about doing this podcast is I get to talk to folks I uh would not ordinarily get to talk to in life. So uh, you know it's really one of the advantages of this current uh context. All right, so let's uh share a few. Just what kind about your background? Faith, uh journey. What faith looked like early in life and then what it looks like today or early faith looked like. >> David: Yeah so I'm the youngest of

three um uh children. I've uh got an older brother and older sister. Uh we grew up uh in uh the northwest of England, um in a household where um the Christian faith wasn't really a day to day reality uh for us. We were taken to church, um to the local village, uh parish church, a tiny little parish church in sort ah of rural um at uh

Cheshire in England. Um we'd all been baptized as infants interestingly uh and we I guess came to faith um myself but also my brother and sister slightly later on in life. So I became a Christian or I would say I became a Christian when I was 14 um quite strangely at a holiday club that the local church was running for 5 to 11 year olds. Um and um, I'd been kind of persuaded to go along under slight duress

uh by my older brother. Uh but uh, it was there really that I uh gave my life to Christ uh I would say and ever since really have been trying to learn what it means to uh become a Christian. Um uh, Eugene Peterson I guess has it right, uh that discipleship is a long obedience in the same direction and uh, I guess for me Jesus is um that direction uh to my life now. Uh and the one who I endeavour to try and set sail towards daily, uh so to speak. Um although some days I'm uh more successful than

others. Uh but uh I guess following after Jesus, uh, for me is what uh, my Christian faith means to me. Um, following after Jesus, whatever and to whatever and to wherever he might, uh, call. Um, so that's probably a little bit about a uh, simple introduction to how I became a Christian. Obviously, um, that's involved many other things. Uh, the journey has been m. Long ah since I was 14. I'm not that

old, uh, but uh. It has been a good few years, a good few decades, um, in terms of trying to figure out ah, what it does mean to follow um, after Jesus and to uh, increasingly come to bear his image. >> Loren: Well, in line with that quote you shared from Eugene Peterson, that discipleship is long obedience in the same direction. If I heard that right, I feel like you can always count on Eugene Peterson for some great quotes like that.

What is a spiritual discipline, uh, that helps you maintain that long obedience? >> David: Then, um. Oh man, there are probably

quite a few. But, um, I think probably top of my list would be um, uh, walking the journey of Christian faith in the company of other people, um, within the life of the local church in that sense, ah, taking part in the worshiping life of the local church, but also um, being uh, part of the community of God's people and allowing that community to shape, um me, um, to form me, uh, in various different

uh, ways. I guess over the years there have been sort of countless, um, uh, other Christians, uh, whether family or friends, whether uh, staff at kind of mission organizations or even in the theological college that I now work for. Um, my PhD supervisor, kind of other kind of people I've come across in various different avenues. My uh, spiritual director for example, today. But uh, all of whom who have kind of uh. Shaped and formed, encouraged and challenged, um, and really kind of um.

Kept me going I suppose, and actually held out, uh, to me, uh, the life of Jesus Christ, um, and sort of patterned something or witness um, something in terms of what it means to uh, be a disciple of Jesus. >> Loren: Well, David is the author of the new book Types of Ecclesiology Five Theological Approaches, which we'll be talking about here today. And I suppose I think I want to introduce this conversation in this

way. From my perspective, at least here in the States and reading the introduction and the early parts of your book, it really seems like there's a similar challenge happening in your neck of the woods. There's a real question of what is the church about? What's it for? What purpose does it have? Moving forward, I highlighted this quote from your introduction. You write that the Church of England was largely content to accept its prescribed status as nonessential

throughout the COVID 19 crisis. To many outside the church, indeed to many inside the Church, this appeared to be a rather disconcerting disappearance of the church from UK national life at a time when people were confronted by the reality of death in an intensely powerful way. You have another quote here that I think again is relevant.

You write the marginalization of the slow and costly work of theological education in the Church of England's life is all the more baffling when what is perhaps most needed in the Church today is theologically astute followers of Jesus who can out narrate a sin sick world. So there's a lot there to

unpack. But uh, I think one of the things that struck me about your book and about what you're trying to, at least as I understand it, uh, trying to tackle is that it's really something that it seems like both in the States, I know from my co host Martha in Canada, maybe it's a

Western Christian thing about what is the church. So I kind of gave you a lot here to respond to. So feel free to kind of to run with that.

>> David: Um, yeah, so I guess for me the sort of, I guess part of the inspiration or the part of the reason um, behind the book is uh, uh, really as you've articulated this question of what is the church, uh it seems to me that in the Western church in particular, uh, given its decline, um, so often, uh, it seems to me that the church, whether that is the Church of England or whether it is uh, another church denomination within the Western church, be it in the UK or in the

States, it seems to me that so often that the response to that decline uh, can on the one hand either be inertia, which would be kind of the uh, perhaps the response of the Church of England within the context of the COVID 19 crisis, although clearly they were examples of great practice during that time as well. Um, but then also perhaps uh, on the other hand, uh, the response of

what um. Michael uh. Jenkins in a book that he wrote, I think at the end of the 20th century called the Church Faces Death, called the Hyperactivity of Panic. So this idea that you know, um, that in the face of its kind of decline the Church kind of uh, clutches for or grasps after every sort of uh, programmatic solution or structural reorganization, which are Jenkins's uh, words into the desperate hope that you know, its survival is just another sort of project or organization or chart away as

he uh, puts it. And uh, for me, I guess I See some of that um, playing out or um, the symptoms of some of that sort of hyperactivity of panic playing out in much of what is written about or taught about the church uh today. So uh, a lot of what is written about the church today or taught about the church today is concerned with this question, uh, not of what the church is, but rather with the question of how the church is uh, to be or what the

church is to do. Uh, um, whether that's kind of focused on questions around how the church is best to relate to a post Christian secular culture, whether that's to do with how the church relates to contemporary ethical issues or how it's to practice worship or how it's to engage in mission and evangelism.

But um, a lot of what is spoken or taught about or written about the church today is concerned with kind of what I would describe more as matters of form and practice of the church rather than actually what the church is. And it seems to me that you can't ask the how question, uh, before you've asked the what question. Um, you know, you need to ask, I think when it comes to thinking about church, what the church is before you then ask how we are to be the church.

And I guess part of me carries uh, some kind of nagging fear that uh, a number of people who are involved in some form or another in church leadership, whether that's ordained church leadership or non ordained church leadership, or even just participating in the church, serving in the church in some form or another, might struggle to kind of articulate a uh, kind of theological response to that question of what the church, uh,

is. And so the uh, book really is, is designed to kind of bring that question, um, or to spotlight that question, um, above everything else, uh, when it comes to uh, thinking or speaking about uh, the church.

>> Loren: Yeah, I think that's really interesting. I'm thinking about other conversations that have been had on this podcast my co host Martha had with Justin Anthony who I think and Allison Milbank, who I believe are both over in your neck of the woods, uh, as part of the Church of England and have similar observations, critiques especially of the Church of England. And I'm thinking also just in my context,

mainline prostitism in the States. I do wonder though, is this a uniquely white Western challenge? >> David: Um, I think it certainly, I mean I obviously write in the context of the Western church and obviously you know, the uh, church is clearly not in decline in the global south or um, uh, in the majority world. Uh, and so ah, an aspect of this uh, perhaps is, uh, specifically related to the

Western church. And obviously that's kind of the church that I'm kind of seeking to address it in the book itself. And obviously the church of which I'm a part of and seek to kind of love and serve in that way. And so, um, it is very much kind of focused in that, ah, direction in terms of, um, the kind of constructive kind of project that I'm trying to engage in. >> Loren: Yeah. Yeah, that's helpful. You know, I'm also thinking, I often use this story years ago when I was in a group,

independent, very conservative Baptist. And years ago when I was in Bible college, uh, if a chapel speaker would get up and say, hey, we need to share the gospel, or a bunch of guys would get in the dorm, would get real excited and let's go share the gospel of the neighborhood, we all knew what we were doing. We all went out knowing what we were talking about and sharing

with the neighbors. To me, it seems like, and I'll change the analogy here, it seems like similarly, whether in mainline Protestantism, if we expand that to perhaps here, neck of the woods in the Church of England, when folks say, let's go, we gotta whatever. We gotta work for the church or grow the church or whatever the church it seems like. And correct me if I'm wrong here, but I feel like this is kind of what you're getting at in your book. There's no real shared assumption or

understanding of what we mean by the church. Is that fair? >> David: Yeah, I think so. I think that's probably fair. Um, I think my underlying kind of, um. Or the question really, um. Or the issue I'm really kind of wanting to push is that, um, before we ask questions about how the church should worship or how the church should engage in mission or evangelism, um, or how the church should relate to, as I say, a post secular Christian, uh, culture. Or a post Christian secular culture.

Sorry, um, There has to be some more fundamental, um, uh, thinking undertaken about what is this thing that we label as the church. Um, because so often what we think about the church, um, translates or whether consciously or unconsciously into practice. Um, and so what we do kind of betrays something about what we think of this

thing called, uh, the church. And so I guess my concern or my project really is simply to try and persuade people to spend some time thinking about that what question before moving too quickly into the how or the do question, which often, uh, translates directly into form and practice. Now, don't get me wrong, matters of form and practice in the life of the church are fundamental and important. >> Loren: Right.

>> David: But to me, they can only follow on from some kind of, uh, articulation of what the church is in and of itself. And I guess for me, the other thing that I might have in mind is, um, you know, clearly across denominations, but also, uh, within denominations, you will get at multiple different answers potentially, and multiple different emphases to this question, even of, um, perhaps even what the

church is. But, uh, I guess one of my questions is really to try and ask, well, can we get to a level of thinking about what the church is? An agreed level of thinking about what the church is that might cut across some of the, um, denominational kind of divisions. >> Loren: Ah. >> David: When a lot of those denominational divisions, not all of them, but a lot of them, uh, are focused, uh, around matters of form, practice and policy. >> Loren: In that sense, I'm really again

thinking about how. What you said about the responses to decline, you know, when it's inertia or panic, that kind of hyperactive panic, like you said, when we're thinking about what to do rather than why we should, or, you know, the. The what rather than the why, I suppose really can put the cart before the horse, so to speak. Right. >> David: Yeah. And that's basically my concern. The focus on, um, how we should be doing church puts the cart, uh, before the

horse. Um, the primary ecclesiological question, or the primary question I would say that we need to be asking when we come to think about the church, um, is the question of what the church is, uh, most kind of

fundamentally. And yes, there will be kind of nuances of emphasis around that question, but is there something, uh, that we can get at, um, which uh, kind of shapes, uh, and guides therefore, um, matters of form and practice, which effectively would help the church in some small way, uh, to live and act

in the world in ways that are more and ever more faithful to its own true being. >> Loren: Let's do this and let's have you share, if you would, just briefly, about the four. The four kind of, can't say the word, ecclesiological frameworks. I told you I'm sick, so I got junk in the throat that's making things worse. Share those four frameworks, if you would.

>> David: Yeah. So I guess in response to this, or wanting to kind of foreground, I guess, this question of what is, uh, uh, the church. Um, the way I go about, uh, seeking to kind of foreground that question in uh, the book is to, uh, offer what I describe as a typology of contemporary approaches to Ecclesiology. And that typology has um. Uh. Or is made up of five different types of theological uh. Approach to going about addressing uh. This question of um. What the church is or thinking

about uh. The church in that sense, uh theologically. And so, um. The uh. Typology in and of itself is kind of offered in one sense as a uh. Constructive orientation to the field of ah. Contemporary ecclesiological thought. So um. If you're someone who's uh. Studying ecclesiology, uh at some point, whether that's in seminary or an uh. Undergraduate or even postgraduate level or if you're a church pastor wanting to think about

um. The church theologically, then it's really offered that typology in one sense as kind of an orientation to numerous kind of sort of debates and emphases uh. In sort of contemporary ecclesiological uh. Scholarship. But of the kind of types themselves. Um. Um. I begin by um. Uh. Unpacking kind of four different types uh of approach. Uh the first type of approach, uh. Is something that I call empirical ecclesiology. And um. All of these approaches I should say are really uh. Related

uh to uh. The question of how um. God's action or divine agency and human action or human agency relate in the life of uh. The church. And um. Uh. I kind of set out at ah. These different types of approach or I draw them out in terms of their relative emphases on divine and human action in relation to ah. The church itself. So uh. In the first type, as I say, empirical ecclesiology, uh. I suggest that in empirical ecclesiology, um. The real emphasis, um. In this question about what

the church is. The real emphasis falls on what humans do in the life of the church. So the church essentially in empirical ecclesiology is what humans do. And therefore in um ah. Theologians who kind of uh. I read as offering or falling into this type of approach. An account of human agency is really the most important thing that they're wanting to uh. Address. Uh. So that's really the first um type. And obviously um. Uh. There is um. Something ah. Really quite vital and

strong in that approach. Because on the one hand the church is a human community. You know, it's important that we understand the church in that way and therefore study the church as an empirical human community. Uh. But that's the first uh. Type. The second type is something I call performative ecclesiology. Uh and uh. Performative ecclesiology, uh. Is um. Kind of attentive if you like to some of the moves that empirical ecclesiology uh wants to make.

But primarily in performative ecclesiology there's a desire to offer ah, an account of God's action, um in addition to the account of human uh, action. Performative ecclesiology. Um, uh. Also um uh. For the way that I read it and construct it, it really does relate to kind of um uh. Understanding the Church in terms of its practices, in terms of lived ecclesial life and human uh, practice. So in some sense it's close or a close cousin but slightly distinct in a way to the first type of approach.

Um. The third type. Third type is something I call communion ecclesiology which kind of um, approaches this uh, question of what the Church is not on the sort of front footing of human agency or the action of humans, but more squarely on the action of God or divine agency. Um, but the way in which it then works that out is in relation to um, God's own triune life

as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Uh, and specifically by indexing God's work or divine agency in the life of the church to the site of uh, the Eucharist in some form or uh, another. And um, then type four, um is uh, I guess a kind of slightly more extreme version you might say of an approach or an account of the Church that kind of has its front foot on the action of God and divine ah, agency. Um, and uh. In that fourth type, uh, I call that fourth type

ideal ecclesiology. And in that type the Church essentially is what ah, God does, um. And um. Therefore kind of the kind of questions or the critique that I pose in relation to ideal ecclesiology is the extent to which ah, an ideal approach to ecclesiology marginalizes or um, dissolves in some form or another, um, the Church's actual human empirical form as a community of people. >> Loren: Yeah, thanks for sharing that.

So for our listeners and this is helpful in your book, you have kind of a layout of sort of I suppose on like a spectrum. >> David: Yeah. >> Loren: And on one side with the empirical. Right. It's human agency is kind of at the far end. The emphasis is on human agency. Then if I'm understanding correctly, at the other opposite end, the ideal ecclesiology or divine agency is kind of at the strong emphasis and there's some overlap obviously in all

these. I'm wondering, I don't know if you're familiar with. I'm thinking of um. I don't know if you're familiar with Nandra Root's work, but I'm thinking of his pyramid in. I think it's the Church in the age of secular mysticism. Are you familiar with that book or his pyramid there? >> David: I'm not familiar with that specific book. I'm vague, sort of broadly aware of Nandra Wirt's work. But I'm not particularly familiar with that pyramid. Uh, so I don't know whether you want to kind of.

>> Loren: Okay, then maybe go with it. Yeah, maybe that won't work, but I'm thinking. I guess I'll generalize the question then a little bit more. Certainly Nandra Root explores, kind of based on Charles Taylor and the idea of the secular age. Um, it seems like if we had a lump sum here, we've moved broadly speaking Western Christianity into this more to use your words I suppose, empirical or performative take on church as human agency. Is that a fair assessment do you think?

>> David: Um, I think uh. Whether it's specifically uh. Tied to um, sort of the um. Diagnosis of kind of at the secular age that Charles Taylor offers in his work. Um. I think there is definitely a sense in kind of contemporary ecclesiology or in the study of the church in a more contemporary period where uh. The emphasis uh more heavily is certainly on um, the church as a human community that if you want to know what the church is then the first thing you have to do is to study this human

community. Uh, almost um. You know, drawing on the fruits of the social sciences or um. Empirical study or ethnography and using those um. Uh. Non theological disciplines you might say to kind of understand the church as a human community. Then almost kind of theologising um about what the church is out of that kind of empirical uh study. And that's certainly probably uh today in the world of contemporary ecclesiological thought, um

where uh. More often than not the emphasis is placed in terms of when we come to thinking about what the church is. Um now you know, you can trace some uh, of that emphasis um through uh. Various different kind of moves if you like within ecclesiology. There's uh, something uh, fairly recently in the 21st century, um called the ethnographic turn. Uh, in ecclesiology again is this turn towards empirical study and the fruits of empirical study. Um, I mean that in and of itself

might be seen as um. Dependent upon sort of a broader turn in theology towards culture. And that

obviously has perhaps its roots if uh. You trace it, keep on tracing back in certain aspects of liberation theology. And so the idea that actually theology is a reflexive act, that actually theology arises from um. The ground, from the root upwards so to speak, and you theologize out of people's um. Experience on the ground. So I guess that the tension that I'm trying to think uh, about in the context of this book is uh. Where do you start your thinking about the church?

Do you start your thinking about the church on the ground, um, and think sort of bottom up, so to speak, or do you think about the church top down, you know, from within, if you like the doctrine of God or from the perspective of the doctrine of God, from the inner life of God and work your way out towards the human

community. And obviously where you start your kind of thinking about the church obviously has implications, um, for uh, where you uh, then go and the type of content that you end up sort of working out, uh, in that thinking about what the Church is. >> Loren: Now in my understanding correctly, that you're advocating for kind of a middle ground or a tension between the two. Um. Is that accurate? >> David: Yeah. So I mean the book sets out these first sort of four

types of approaches. And as you say, um, they do revolve, if you like, around the relationship between human agency and divine agency. With empirical ecclesiology squarely on the side of human agency, ideal ecclesiology squarely on the side, sort of a divine agency and then performative and communion ecclesiology kind of in the middle, uh, of the sort of opposite poles, uh so to speak. Um, but obviously with some overlap between all of them.

Um. >> Loren: Uh. >> David: Where the book kind of goes to is uh. To suggest a fifth type of approach. Which is something that I call ecclesiological ecclesiology. And uh. Really, um. What I'm trying to tease out in that

chapter is, is. Well, you know, having surveyed or having constructed these four different types of approach, having identified uh, their strengths, their weaknesses, uh, from a theological perspective, is there a way to begin to think about how you might address, um, in speech about the Church, um, some of those theological deficiencies, um. Ah. That are apparent in those other four, uh. Types. And uh. To make that move, I, um. Go to the third article of the Creed, um, I uh,

go to an account of uh. The personal work of God, the Holy Spirit, as ah, a way really to um. Think along with

um. A couple of other theologians, a couple of other ecclesiological thinkers, how an emphasis on ah, the work of the Holy Spirit and an emphasis on pneumatology in that sense as a doctrine in ecclesiology might help us to think, um, divine and human agency together in a more helpful and constructive way, which not only allows you to hold um, on to the fact and to emphasize and to speak about the church as

a human community. Well, uh, but also, uh, to relativize that speech, um, by an appropriate emphasis on God's own action, basically. >> Loren: This conversation is very theoretical. You mentioned you work at a seminary, or as we might call it, a seminary. And I want to think, as this is a podcast that really does want to help pastors and church leaders, I want to bring this more practical, this

conversation. And I think about this tension, as I'm understanding it, between the pull to make church all about human effort is the word I'll use versus that. Opposite tension or opposite extreme, I suppose, of just kind of like let go and let God would be a phrase. How do you advise, you know, how do you advise pastors, church leaders? I mean, this is, as you alluded to, this is something it seems

like you're wrestling with. You think the Church of England is wrestling with about what is adequate training for church leaders. I mean, you talked about the. In your book Church of England, sending out, like, kind of lay leaders to start churches. Talk more about that. >> David: Um. Uh, so, I mean, I guess in terms of the sort of. The types of approach itself. So I mean, let's just run on a sort of a

practical level with, um. I don't know. Uh, you may, you know, cash out, for example, an ideal approach to ecclesiology that you might think, okay, well, here's a theologian talking about the church in. In these terms, uh, in a very kind of, um, theoretical or, uh, systematic or doctrinal way, almost. Um, but that doesn't equate or that doesn't

relate to the church down the road that I go to. You know, that church is broken, it's marred, it's scarred, um, by, um, you know, human sin, by matters of race, ableism, um, or sexism or whatever it might be. Um. >> Loren: Uh-huh.

>> David: And so the emphasis on, I guess, you know, drawing out from empirical ecclesiology would be to say, well, what is the space in your church community, uh, for the reality of human sin, for the reality of broken lives, or is actually what people experience in the context of your local church, um, almost like an unattainable ideal when it comes to church life or living the Christian

life? Almost? Um, is everything so perfect, in other words, uh, presentationally or not, as the case may be, for, uh, people actually to engage, uh, with. Uh. So I guess that's kind of one of the questions. Obviously, there are other questions in terms of, you know, you've taken the emphasis on communion, ecclesiology, for example. You know, what role does the Eucharist or Holy Communion or the Lord's Supper play in the worshiping life

of your church. You know, for some theologians, as I sort of, uh, articulate in the course of that chapter on communion ecclesiology, the church is most herself in that kind of moment of celebrating the uh, Eucharist of breaking bread and wine outpoured. Um, so I guess one of the challenges there is if the Eucharist somehow is constitutive of what the church is, um, where is it in the life of your church? To what extent does your

worshiping life kind of reflect that? And uh. So there are all the sorts of these kind of, um, practical questions, I guess, that kind of flow from, um. Ah, some of these different types of, uh, approach. And uh, for me, I guess one of the questions is often, uh, for church pastors or church leaders, whether ordained or not, um, often the churches

that they. Or we seek to lead and grow, um, whether we realize it or not, will take on a kind of former practice, um, in a way which kind of betrays what you actually think the church is. So you might not actually think the church is constituted at all, uh, by broken bread and wine outpoured. And therefore you may well end up leading a church where actually you don't think the celebration of the Eucharist is that

important. Um, so there are all of these different emphases which I guess come out and might play out on a practical level, um, which, um. I would want kind of, uh. Those leading local churches to kind of, uh, wrestle with or think through, or at least think through the sort of the implications of why they're doing what they're doing and what does that actually communicate in terms of what they think or believe? Um, the church, uh, is.

Um. So I mean, if the church is just a human community and somehow is just this group of people kind of gathering together, then why is it important that the way they live is more countercultural than culturally relevant, so to speak? Um, or if, um, the church is constituted in its. Or by its practice. Does doctrinal belief matters in that sense?

>> Loren: Yeah, I think that's one of the things that I really appreciate about the book is you kind of really play out kind of the logical implications of these concepts. I do want to again drill down even more. Practically speaking, again, as I'm thinking about, at least here in the States. And uh, it sounds like they're similar challenges over there where you are. Where, at least in my context, there's continued decline

of church budgets and resources. I just had a conversation with a middle adjudicatory leader about bivocationality as the term we use here in the States, being the future, I'm fortunate that I think in my seminary that I graduate from is fortunate to have very, uh. Seems like a very good financial foundation to draw from. But even then I wonder how much can students continually, even how much will there be a future for theological education at least like the classic M. Div?

What do you think about balancing this tension of again like a, uh, well educated, theologically educated clergy versus the very real implications and challenges of, I suppose, the modern economy? >> David: Yeah, it's a great question and I, uh, guess. >> Loren: And how does it affect ecclesiology? I guess lived out. >> David: Yeah. Uh, and I guess one of the issues that your question raises is when we talk about theological training of future church leaders or even current

church leaders, what do we mean by that? Um, are we just talking about theoretical theological education or are we actually, uh, talking about um, uh, training in a much more holistic way which does actually draw on questions, um, of um, aspects of leadership training or how you kind of lead a meeting or fundraise, um, or engage with social

media and all of these different things. And I guess I'm part of a theological college or seminary in the States where ah, all of our, um, students, uh, who are training for ordained ministry are also, at the same time as they're doing their formal theological study, are also engaged in practical mission and ministry in local churches. And so they're doing the two things together. Um, so they're speaking to one another, um, right from the get go.

And obviously, yes, today seminary training has to be much broader than just your classical kind of M. Div. Training, uh, because obviously clergy today on the ground have to deal with, and church pastors have to deal with multiple different things. They are asked to do many, many different things in the context of leading churches, which, uh, perhaps historically seminary, uh, training hasn't equipped them well for. >> Loren: Yeah, Let me do one more question here before we take a break.

When we think about pastors and church leaders on the ground leading their churches, how would you advise them to maybe be cognizant of or begin a dialogue maybe within themselves, within their leadership, even within the broader church, about how their perhaps implicit understanding of church ecclesiology is shaping their church actions and how maybe they might want to solicit, bring change in their congregation?

>> David: Sorry, can you just repeat that question? You kind of broke up a little bit. >> Loren: Yeah, sure. Just when we think about pastors and church leaders thinking about how would you advise Them to begin within themselves, within their congregation, formulating, forming conversations around what kind of ecclesiological approach they take currently and how, if they want to shift or bring a different kind of approach, how they might do that.

>> David: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I guess I would start with some really quite uh, basic questions, sorry, between uh, you and your congregation. So, um, what do you think the Church is? What is the Church for? What is the Church's purpose? Um, uh, and once you begin to tease out some of those questions, uh, that then may lead you in a different direction. So is the Church simply, um, to serve those who are already members of

it? For example, um, there was a previous Archbishop of Canterbury, um, who a long time ago said that um, the Church is the only non cooperative society, uh, that exists for the benefit of those who are not yet members of it. Um, and so asking some basic questions around what you think the Church is, uh, what is the Church for and what is its purpose might um, then begin to help you tease out what it is you think you're doing or why you're doing it at, ah, when you come together as the Church.

And I think, you know, tying this back to um, uh, the sort of fifth theological approach that I identify in the book as ecclesiological ecclesiology, one of the kind of focuses, uh, there is this idea of um, you know, the purpose of the Church or the Church exists not for the sake of itself. Right. The Church exists for the sake of the world.

And so how does your gathered church, or how does your Church as uh, the gathered people of God in its own uh, life express the fact, uh, that its identity is ultimately in its outward looking missional focus and purpose. So I guess I would be encouraging people to start with some very basic questions. What is the Church or what do you think the Church is? What do you think the Church's purpose is? What do you think the Church is for?

Um, how do you think about the fact that we declare in the Creed that the Church is holy and yet it is broken and sinful? Or how do you think about the fact that the Church is one, as we declare in the Creed, and yet the Church is divided? Um, and then begin to tease out some of those things from there. Where people are at. Basically you've got to start where people are at.

>> Loren: Yeah, these are important questions because I'm thinking even just these three questions, the responses to these will greatly shape the real practical, lived out experience of what the Church looks like. Whether it's more of a very missional type outreach Centered community, very much a worshiping community. Um, yeah, this is. I wish. >> David: So I guess one of the questions is, you know, when you know, is the church there to serve you?

Is the church there to serve your needs, to give you your kind of spiritual fix? >> Loren: Yeah. >> David: Sunday by Sunday, or whatever day of the week it is that you gather so that you can then engage in the world or so happening. How do you perceive, you know, do you think the church is there to serve you? Are you simply a consumer of what the church offers you? Or is something deeper and something else going on

here? When we come to think about what the church is, and therefore how we, as the disciples of Christ, are to engage in the church that is Christ's. >> Loren: Body, I'm reminded, I don't know if you've heard this term before. I mean, it goes back to something even from my conservative Baptist days, of this disagreement that we're talking about, like, is the church a hospital? Is the church, um. You know, I can't remember the other word. Like, is the church

a hospital for the world? Is it a HAAS or a safe space, a hotel? Or for, you know, for believers, is it a. Is it a mission organization? So I think it's. This is a question that, uh, believers and Christians, it seems like across the spectrum are wrestling with. Well, the book is. I'm going to find the title again. 5 the Types of Ecclesiology, 5 Theological Approaches by David Emerton. Let's take a break, and we'll come back with some closing questions.

All right, we're back with the Reverend Dr. David Emerton. So thank you for your time. Really appreciating having this conversation with you. Uh, some closing questions that we tell folks you can take as seriously or not as you'd like to. If you're a Pope for a day, what might that day look like for you? What do you want to do anything like that? >> David: If I was Pope for the day, uh, what would I do? Uh, that's a great

question. Um. Um, on a less than serious note, probably, uh, find someone to find me and bring me the best Italian espresso that you can lay your hands on. Um, but, um. But what would I do if I was Pope for the day? I don't know. I think. Well, I, uh. Probably to use the opportunity, um, to tell the world in whatever way I could do that following, um, after Jesus really is the best thing that anyone can ever do with their life. >> Loren: Yeah. >> David: Um. Um, that.

That, you know, it's not an easy or straightforward path, and sometimes it's A very costly path, but, but it is certainly a path that um, along which kind of real life or resurrection life comes to us, uh, through the Spirit. Um, I guess, um,

I might also kind of use it as an opportunity to tell the church or those who belong to the church that um, wrestling or taking time to wrestle with why we believe what we believe as Christians, uh, whether it's about the church or whether it's about the gospel. More fundamentally, taking some time to study a bit of theology at whatever level, uh, will enlarge certainly your love for God, your love for the church, but also your love for um, uh, the world.

Uh, and I guess going back to the quote that you picked up on from the introduction of the book, I do wholeheartedly believe that what is perhaps most needed in the church today is as I say, theologically astute followers of Jesus who can out narrate a sin sick world. Uh, and so perhaps if I was pope for the day, I'd take the opportunity to get up on my soapbox and um, say that a bit more loudly. >> Loren: Yeah, well, I like the uh. This

is pretty unique answer. I don't know how much folks who have talked both sides of I want to do something fun like get a great espresso and then I want to speak to the world. So that's good. Um, a theologian or historical Christian figure you'd want to meet or bring back to life.

>> David: Oh, wow. Um, well, I guess on one hand probably, um, if my students are listening to this, they're probably expecting um, me at this point to say Dietrich Bonhoeffer, um, the 20th century German theologian and church pastor who was martyred, um, uh, by uh, the Nazis, uh, primarily because he was the focus of my uh, PhD research. And I, uh, still kind of teach and do quite a little bit of work around his theological thinking in his

life. And um. But I'm not going to give you the obvious answer, uh, that uh, people would expect and I'm going to say I think probably I'd quite like to have a conversation or bring back Thomas Aquinas. >> Loren: Okay. >> David: Um, and why do I say that? Um, well, I don't know whether you know anything about Thomas Aquinas, uh, but uh, for me his life story is pretty interesting.

Um, there's ah, that kind of moment, um, when his brothers, on hearing that Thomas was planning to kind of begin a new life of sanctity as um, a Dominican friar and follow after God's call in his life, that his brothers kind of go so far as to lock him up. In a room and um, stick uh, a prostitute in his room to try and tempt him away from his life of intended

sanctity. And uh, legend has it that Thomas uh, responded to this temptation by chasing the uh, prostitute out of his rooms with a log that he picks up from the fire in uh, the corner. But he's got a pretty uh, interesting uh, life story. But I think personally at the moment I'm, I'm really quite fascinated to be honest, in the way that Thomas approaches his study of theology. Um, and I guess I see this um, sort of in evidence, I guess in his really ah, famous work the Summer

Theologica. And the way that he kind of works how I would see it kind of charitably, um, graciously and plausibly if you like, uh, to think himself into the shoes of those people that he ultimately goes on to dispute with in the context

of his theological thinking. And so I guess I'd love to talk to him a little bit about um, how he sees the work and task of uh, theology around this idea that theology and the study of theology is this kind of um, uh, deep and sustained act not only of listening, uh, well, to the thoughts and thinking of other people, but kind of doing the hard work to kind of think yourself into their shoes so that you can then respond to their thinking graciously and charitably, uh, with skill, even if

you go on to ultimately disagree uh, with them. And I'd uh, love to pick Thomas's brains uh, if he was alive because I think there's much that the modern day church or the contemporary church, uh, could learn from Thomas in terms of um, about the sort of the nature of theological debate almost um, about the nature of theological disagreement.

Um, you know, whatever else Thomas is doing. This is certainly not kind of sound, biting, it's certainly not um, 140 characters, um, on a platform formerly known as Twitter. This is kind of careful, sustained listening to one another. Um, and so I'd love to kind of pick his brains a little bit about that, about how he sees almost the work of theology and the way it's to be done kind of humbly and prayerfully and generously in that sense. So Thomas

Aquinas. There you go. >> Loren: Yeah, that's good. What do you think history will remember from our current time and place? >> David: Oh, uh, crumbs. What will history remember from our current time and place? >> Loren: Um, this is a big hour since we are recording across the ocean here.

>> David: Um, I mean I honestly am not sure what history will remember from this Time and season that we're in at the moment, um, probably the development of AI, um, and whether if that progresses in the way it seems to be progressing, um, ah, whether people will love us for it or completely ru us or hate us for it, um, I imagine, you know, our relation to the created world, what we actually ah, leave future

generations. Um, I would hope that people would um, reflect quite critically on um, certain political movements and um, certain trends and emphases in, in politics and in uh, the life of today's society. Whether you're kind of this side of the pond or your side of the pond. Um, but, um. But yeah, it's hard. It's hard to say, isn't it? Um, I mean, I hope. What I really hope and pray, what history will remember from this current time and place is that, um, the church was faithful to

the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Um, but that's um, a challenging thing at the moment. >> Loren: Well, that is kind of the last question we always ask folks, and it's a related question. What are your hopes for the future of Christianity? Would that be your hope then? That the church was faithful?

>> David: Um, yeah, I guess my hope for the future of Christianity and, and sort of the church would be that, um, we as individual Christians, but we as the church corporate, um, I guess might come to express ever more faithfully, both in form and practice, in word and deed, uh, the conviction that Christ alone is our hope. Um,

and. And thereby kind of recover, I guess, a courageous confidence, uh, in the truth of God's gospel, um, both internally within the life of the church, but also externally out in the public square in the life of, um, the world, um, that we would be known more for the name of Jesus than abuse scandals or, um, being quiet or irrelevant. >> Loren: Yeah. Well, I really appreciate this conversation, really encourage folks to check out, um, the book and your work.

Do you have folks, do you have a way for folks to connect with you, um, website, anything? >> David: I don't have a personal website. Um, the, uh, best way to connect with me, uh, is I have a LinkedIn account. People, uh, can find me on LinkedIn. Um, otherwise, uh, I'm not on social media, um, which in today's world, um, you know, perhaps it's not the best way to further uh, your own career. But there we go. I have my reasons, ah, for that.

Um, but otherwise you can find me through, um, my theological college's website, uh, which is Summer Litus College. So if people Google Summerlitus College, that's N, E L L I T U S Mellitus um, you can find me through that, um, and you can obviously then contact me by email, uh, through that, uh, forum as well. >> Loren: Well, thank you so much for your conversation. I, uh, always leave folks with a word of peace. So may God's peace be with you. >> David: And be upon you, too.

>> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast. The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate Media. We love to hear from our listeners with questions, comments, and ideas for future episodes. Visit our website at, uh, future-christian.com and find the Connect with Us form at the bottom of the page to get in touch with Martha or Loren. But before you go, do us a favor, subscribe to the POD to leave a review. It really helps us get this out to

more people. Thanks and go in peace.