The Church as a Healing Community with Susan Ward Diamond

>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in the 21st century. At the Future Christian Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical wisdom to help you and your community of faith

walk boldly into the future. Whether you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of your faith community, this podcast is designed to challenge, inspire, and equip you with the tools you need for impactful ministry. And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode. >> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today, Loren Richmond, Jr. Welcomes the Reverend Dr. Susan Ward diamond to the program.

Dr. Diamond is the Lead Pastor of Florence Christian Church Disciples of Christ in Florence, Kentucky, where she has served since 2015. Susan received her Bachelor of Arts degree from Texas Christian University, a Master of Divinity degree from Bright Divinity School, and a Doctor of Ministry degree from United Theological seminary in Dayton,

Ohio. Dr. Diamond has invested herself in ministry and mission through local, regional and general expressions of the Christian Church Disciples of Christ in the United States and Canada throughout her 30 throughout 33 years of ordained ministry, she has served on the regional boards of the Florida and Alabama Northwest Florida regions, directed numerous youth camps and conferences, and served as a keynote speaker of retreats and assemblies around the country.

She has served her denomination as First Vice Moderator for the 2011-2013 biennium of the Christian Church Disciples of Christ in the United States and Canada. During her sabbatical in 2021, Dr. Diamond and Dr. Rita Nakashima Brock collaborated on a pastoral study grant funded by the Louisville Institute entitled Moral A Catalyst for

Reform. Following the study period, they have continued their work together to offer strategies to faith communities for providing support and healing for those suffering from moral distress and moral injury. They have recently launched the podcast Soul Repair After Moral Injury. Susan and Rita are currently writing a book which they hope to publish soon. A reminder before we start today's conversation, please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave a review and

share Future Christian with a friend. Connect with Loren, Martha and Future Christian on Instagram. Send us an email at uh, laurensonatemediapro uh.com with comments, questions or ideas for future episodes. We are grateful for your voice in how we faithfully discern the future of the church. >> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. This is Loren Richmond Jr. And I am pleased to be welcoming today. Reverend Dr. Susan Diamond. Hello and welcome to the show.

>> Susan: Thank you so much for having me. I'm delighted to be with you. >> Loren: Yeah. Looking forward to having this conversation. Is there Anything else you'd like our listeners to know about you? >> Susan: Well, I was looking through my bio, um, and I realized I didn't put anything about, you know, my kind of my personal life. So I'll share a couple of things about those with you because it's an interesting. It's interesting.

Um, so I have been married to my husband Ron for 40, almost 46 years now. And I don't want anybody to do the math, but I was a baby when we got married. Let's just say that. Um, and the second thing I would want listeners to know, um, about my husband. He is a professional entertainer, um, travels all over the U.S. uh, and actually he's done some international work as well, um, as a magician and stage hypnotist.

>> Loren: Wow. >> Susan: It's a very interesting combination to have a pastor, a female pastor with her magician husband. I get a lot of comments about that. Um, but he's fantastic in Entertainment for 50 years and just, uh, is a great, ah, a great entertainer and a wonderful husband. Um, also, uh, one of the things that we love to do is travel. And, um, so we do lots of cruising and we do lots of traveling around the world. Um, we've been blessed to be able to do

that. And, um, we are proud parents of a little miniature dachshund named Bella. And she is, she's kind of the light of our life. Hopefully you will not hear her barking. My husband has orders to keep her quiet while we're doing this. >> Loren: My. I have a bigger dog that likes to shove her head in my lap intermittently during these conversations. Yeah, well, I want to talk cruising, but, um, do you have a cruise coming up? I guess. Any big.

>> Susan: I do, yes. In May, we are going on a very short cruise. Uh, only five days, but we're going to Cozumel and Bimini on, uh, Virgin. It's the first time we've. We've traveled on Virgin, but a lot of our friends have told us how fun, how much fun it is. And, um, my husband says he likes to go cruising because it gets me away and nobody can get in touch with me. Yeah, that was actually before Internet became really Wi fi became available. But we say nobody calls

while we're on a cruise. So it's a good thing for, um, our relationship and for my emotional health. Yeah, yeah. >> Loren: You know, I was thinking about that because I did a cruise. My parents took my family on a Disney cruise some years ago. And I remember, like, that was a real nice thing because I was not going to pay for wifi because it's not cheap for

one on the cruise. So I'm like, well, I guess I'm. I guess. I guess I'm going to have great boundaries here because no one could call me Plug. >> Susan: Yes, indeed. >> Loren: Well, uh, share, if you would, just kind of about your faith journey, how it, how it began, what it looks like today. And. And uh. >> Susan: Yeah, well, it's changed a lot. I'll just say that over. Over the time I have been alive, I was raised in the Christian

faith. Um, I remember, um, from a very, very early age asking. And my grandmother had a big impact on my life. Um, felt a sense of call. Didn't know that that was called to pastoral ministry, which is where I landed. But, um, I remember when I was a senior in high school, you know, they had the yearly youth Sunday event. And so, uh, two of us, um, both named Susan by the way, um, were asked to do a little personal testimony. And I got up and I said how easy it was to

be a Christian. And then my friend Susan got up and she said how hard it was to be a Christian. >> Loren: How interesting. >> Susan: And it was interesting. And I have learned over the years that my friend Susan had it more, More right than I did at the time. So, um, you know, I know now that, uh, it's not

an easy thing to be a Christian. And I think even in the climate that we're living in now, uh, truly being a follower of Christ and being a disciple is very challenging and, um, especially in the church today. So, um, I know that's true, but, ah, I think that's really where I want to stop there. You know, I can go on and on and on and talk about a spiritual journey that led

me into ministry. I was very, very grateful for all the doors that opened to me so that I would be able to pursue that, um, especially by working as a church secretary at Bright Divinity School. And one of the benefits of working there was full tuition, husband and I to finish our. We got married really early and we dropped out of school. And then we were able to complete our undergraduate degrees, um, based on

that. And then God had me. I say God had me at Bright Divinity School working so that I could see women going into ministry and then opening the doors for me to do that. So I am incredibly grateful for the journey and all the changes, um, that have happened in my life as I've been involved in this odd and wondrous calling of ministry. >> Loren: Yeah, that's a good way of saying it. Share if you're willing. >> Susan: There's a book written by that title.

>> Loren: Yeah, yeah. Share, if you're willing, any thoughts on spiritual practices that are meaningful for you, you're willing to share. >> Susan: Okay, so, um, let me just say this. Uh, I was at a meeting, it was a boundaries training meeting with other ministers. I think there were probably a couple hundred people and we were sit roundtables because that very question was asked, what do you do to take care of yourself spiritually? What are the, what are the practices that you

do? And around this whole table everybody was talking about, you know, oh, I get up and I meditate and I go, you know, I go for a run, I do this, I do that. And when it got to me, I said, well, every day I have a little bit of chocolate and a little bit of wine. And those are spiritual practices. But not, not only that, of course. Um, I love spending quiet time with God. I love communing with nature, I love journaling, I love, um, reflecting on stuff that I

read. Um, so these are daily practices every single day, um, that I'm involved in and really get a lot out of it. Uh, I work with a spiritual director and that's probably one of the most life changing things that I have done in the last several years. But, um, uh, she, um, keeps me grounded and continues to ask probing questions that I often, because of the work that I do that focuses on everybody else, I don't focus on myself as much. And so I have found that to be quite rewarding.

>> Loren: Yeah, that's great. Thanks for sharing all that. Well, we're here to talk with Susan today, sort of as an extension of the Remind and Renew conference that took place in Phillips Seminary. I was pleased to be there in person and got to speak with Susan's uh, co speaker. What would be the word, one of your colleagues? >> Susan: Yes, Dr. Uh, Rita Nakashima Brock, who we co host a, uh, podcast, a limited podcast. And we've done some work on moral injury over the years.

>> Loren: So the Phillips Seminary reminded Renew conference this year was centered on the theme of seeking wisdom and understanding in troubling times. And with my conversation with Dr. Brock, we kind of just talked through that theme. And I kind of wanted to do the same thing here today. Obviously, as I mentioned, ah, before we started recording, I think this is important. This will air sometime after,

obviously, as we are already past it. But when I recorded with Dr. Brock, we were just before the presidential inauguration. Now we are, we're into it and this will be aired, you know, some weeks or perhaps months after. So I think in many ways that's Shifted, um, the national mood in some ways. So I want to start with. So I want to start with this. Um, let's reflect, if you can, as you think about troubling times. You're a pastor. You've been leading a church community for many years.

What, uh, have you seen that's perhaps unique about our current context? What do you think is the same? What are you seeing, perhaps, in your congregants that feels different? Share. Feel free to respond to what strikes you. >> Susan: Yeah, I was, um. I was just thinking about that. I was, uh. Earlier today, I, uh, was getting, um, off on Fridays, and so I was getting all my chores done, uh, personal chores done, and one of them was getting my nails done. That's

my guilty pleasure, you know, kind of thing. But, um, the person who owns the nail salon is from Cambodia, and nobody was in the. This was interesting. Nobody was in there except the two of us. And she's been my nail, um,

person for a long time. And she was talking with me about, um, uh, our governor, actually, in Kentucky is Andy Brashear, who is part of our denomination, uh, Christian Church Disciples of Christ. Shout out. She brought him up as somebody who really cares about people. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Susan: And, um, and she said, I'm so thankful for he. He cares about me. And I said, yes, he does. And I know him personally, and he is a man of faith, and he

really. He really believes that each human being is worthy of dignity and. And respect. And she, um, said, I'm just. I'm just unrattled right now because I feel like I'm not safe. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Susan: And she said, um, well, she was robbed a couple of months ago from home, and there's not been as many people coming in the nail salon. So she's worried about.

She's worried about her business, but she's also worried about, uh, people like herself that come from a different ethnicity that may be targeted in some way. She's totally legally here in the United States. She said, I understand getting people who are dangerous off the streets. She said, but this is not good. Um, this is not the kind of America that I thought I was coming to. And, um, so I took some time just to be with her, to affirm her and

in our local congregation. As a pastor of this congregation, which is an amazing, amazing, um, congregation been in existence for almost 200 years, um, @ the beginning of the Stone Campbell movement. And, um, 1831 actually was when it was established. Uh, but the church's DNA has always been. Always been about serving the community. And so we are Involved, um, in some amazing kinds of ministries, um, to people who are marginalized,

um, the unhoused. We have a shower ministry, um, that goes on with them, um, with those that are, um, food insecure. We have a 247 outdoor pantry as well as a huge distribution a couple times a month that we make, um, we have a health clinic, um, once a month that goes on with, um. But we have lots of community partners, nonprofit community partners, um, that make these, um, ministries possible. And, um, there is anxiety about all of

the, you know, all the cuts that are being made. We are grant generated and a lot of the partners that we work with are grant generated. And we're concerned for the least of these, um, because our little church, um, which operates a big. A big ministry, um, is not able to do that on. On tithes and offerings. Yeah. And so we are, um. I think there's a lot of concern about that. Our congregation is a diverse community. Um, we do not

all think the same way. We are not all on the same political persuasion. Um, and yet we are very, very clear about the kind of mission that we have that we're called to. And so these are all challenging times

that we're living in. And as I said to, uh, Rita shortly after the election that I think that, uh, even before we saw what's happened since the inaugur, um, that we have our work cut out for us as we are looking toward the future, um, with moral, uh, injury happening in lots of different ways. >> Loren: Yeah, I appreciate you sharing all that. I'm struck by kind of what you said, and I'm going to get his name wrong. So forgive me. And disciples of Christ

at large, forgive me. Bashir. Bashar. >> Susan: Bashir. >> Loren: Bashir. Okay, Governor Bashir. Yes, I think that's striking. What you shared, how he's being perceived, is that he cares about other people. I think we're. I feel like. I think what's most troubling to me about our current time and place is it feels like caring for people is, like, considered. I mean, in some circles, folks are saying empathy is a sin, which is, I mean, mind bogglingly preposterous.

And I'm also struck by what you shared about your church. You said, if I heard you correctly, your church is not a church that they all vote the same way, but they have agreed, uh, to be clear on mission and service to others, which, again, I think is striking. So do you want to share more about, um, how that, that kind of ethos has come to be and how you've helped foster that. >> Susan: Thanks for asking that question because I think it's an important

one. Um, I have been ah, lead pastor at Florence christian now for 10 years and when we came to the church, um, uh, we recognized pretty quickly that the church uh, had gone through a time of questioning uh, what their existence was about and that kind of thing. So we really worked very, on the first year to 18 months on mission to get clarity about what it was that God was calling us to be and do and our why, what was our reason for existence. We also developed a set of core values that

guide us. Uh, so our mission is that we celebrate God's welcome table of abundant love, grace and acceptance. Um, it's the. It's just the ethos that we live out of and um, so that has opened the doors really wide to a great diversity of people coming in that they, you know, they're welcome, they're received, they're loved and um, we really embrace that. Um, the core values that we have are to welcome radically and serve boldly and form faith every

day. Um, we cannot do the first two unless we are forming our faith. And that is the well out of which we can welcome radically without um, barriers to people, no matter where they come from. If we've got somebody who's in our shower ministry that um, has come in, comes into the church, they're just as much a part of our family

as anybody else. Um, we became open and affirming that that whole thing led us to the LBGTQ community to open right our doors as well as people who are maybe more conservative politically and everybody has a place at the table and um, so we live by those core values. We live by that mission and that has informed how we have developed the ministries that we've been involved in. Now we've had a major childcare ministry for over 40 years, um, one of the largest in Kentucky, um, nonprofit. We have

recovery, uh, groups that meet. Those were all going on before we came. But the food ministries, the homeless ministries, um, um, we have 40 community partners that um, provide services so that when somebody comes to get a shower or get food from us, that we have ways of connecting them with resources that will help them to m, move out of um, homelessness into you know, um, what we would consider more um, stable, uh living.

And um. And so they come to, they come to our place, these community partners and we connect them with each other. So um, there's lots and lots of partnerships. We do not, when we serve 15, uh, hundred people through our food ministry distribution twice a month um, we open, uh, that opportunity for service to anybody who wants to help us. And that's the only way we could do what we do is through recognizing our partnerships with each other. >> Loren: Yeah.

So I'm thinking about this. You've been at your church, you said, 10 years thereabouts. Right. I mean, that's a long time. I'm sure you've seen your fair share of conflict and division in the church as much as you've tried to try to lead. Well, I'm curious again, as we think about troubling times. Even if you want to reflect on your own, within your own community, there are troubling times within your own community. How have those values and being clear on mission helped? Because I feel like

this is. I feel like in many ways this is kind of what is a big, humongous divide. Divide is not the right word. But barrier. I don't know what the right word is in our nation is. There's no kind of clear moral guidelines about what should direct our actions in future. How is. How have you seen those clear mission and clear values help lead your community through conflict and division?

>> Susan: Yeah. And I want to say, um, I did a leadership, uh, thing on conflict because, uh, George, uh, Bullard, uh, wrote a book called Every Congregation Needs a Little Conflict because conflict actually provides the opportunity for growth to happen. And I love, to use the metaphor of a butterfly, um, has. Starts as a caterpillar is in a cocoon and has to fight to get out of that cocoon. And that fight is what provides the wings to fly. And if you cut that,

if you don't. If you don't go through. Will never develop its wings. And so, um, we. We certainly have had conflict. And I would say one of the. One of the challenges. And we'll talk about this maybe a little bit later too. Um, I think for the North American church, and probably churches all the world is. When we went through Covid, it changed us. And there's. And it. It decreased our size. And it was,

you know, we. We still have lots of people who join us on Sunday mornings, and we don't see them at church. >> Loren: Right. >> Susan: And. And there are things that have happened. Um, there are troubling things that have happened as a result of

that. Um, a couple of things on both sides. So for the people who are staying at home, there's this disconnect in some ways, um, and loneliness, um, that doesn't happen when you. Hopefully when you're gathering in small groups at least, and connecting with each other in person. Um, it Also has meant, ah, uh, decreasing in sizes of giving and those kinds of things which have created, um, the challenges that we're facing. What we try to do is to be nimble with that and to say, okay, God, what

is it that we can do? Are there things that we need to, um, let go of so that we can take on something different? Um, and that's the. I would say that's a huge challenge for us. Um, but not to be afraid of conflict. And we certainly have, uh. We've gotten in. What, uh, what was his name? Uh, John. Good Trouble. I'm having a meeting. >> Loren: Oh, yeah, I can't think of the. >> Susan: Author either, but yeah, from Georgia. From Georgia.

Yeah. He passed away. But yeah, we've gotten into some good trouble. John Lewis. John Lewis. Thank you. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Susan: Yeah, we've gotten into good trouble before with, um, you know, uh, last year we had very, very dangerous cold weather. We've had it again this year. Um, and we wanted to offer space for people to come in out of the cold. And we were told we were not zoned to do that. You know, and so we've been. We've been struggling, um, with

our. Our, uh, city and county to. To find ways to work together so that no one dies. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Susan: That there are. There are ways in which we can work together on that. And that is continuing to be a struggle for us. Um, and part of. I think it's just part of the cost of discipleship too. Right. >> Loren: Yeah. And I appreciate you say that. This idea of a good conflict. Because I think there can be this sense

of we want to avoid conflict at all costs. And I think getting to the broader picture, I feel like that's been somewhat problematic about our culture at large. Right. It's, uh, almost like this. This. Like we can't ever talk about anything controversial. Like we can't talk religion, can't have politics. And then it comes to the point where, like, when it does come out, it's just like all anger and vitriol because it's kind of these blowing the top type conversations is that.

>> Susan: Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. And I. I think we are, especially in the church where we love. We want to be unified. And so sometimes we avoid those hard conversations. And I am certainly. I'm a two on the Enneagram, so I'm a people pleaser. And I'm wanting everybody to, uh, love me. So that's one of the challenges that I have had a personal growth over my life is to find ways of being in conversation and even in conflict. Um, in healthy ways

so that we can. Can find commonalities, we can respect each other, and we can grow. All of us can grow through doing that. >> Loren: Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that. I appreciate you sharing that. I want to kind of shift gears here toward the seeking wisdom and understanding. But I'm curious. You mentioned those three core values of welcoming, serving, and forming. But what struck me as, uh, most interesting is you said your church can't welcome and serve before they're

formed. I want to hear more about that. >> Susan: Yeah, I want to. So. And this is where we, uh, our church has that service DNA. They love. They absolutely love service. In fact, we end our worship services every single week with the mantra, the worship is over. Now the service begins. And so we say that, uh, you know, the worship leader, or I will say, the worship is over and the people shout it out. Now the service begins. >> Loren: That's great.

>> Susan: The weak link for many people is that they're so much into service or so much into social justice or so much that, uh, not having the faith balance, the forming faith every day and that kind of thing, it makes us lopsided. And so, uh, what I want to say to folks, and we just did a series on shalom, finding shalom, that it begins with finding peace with God.

Then we find peace with ourselves. And only after we find peace with God and peace with ourselves can we find peace with each other. And so out of that, think about, think about that in terms of conflict. Because many times when we get. When we have differences of opinion, we want to preserve, you know, or put our opinion out there as the right

one. And, um, when we have done that work ahead of time, when I meet with somebody that I don't know, it makes me at least be mindful that this is another human being loved by God beyond measure, created in the image of God. And even though I might disagree with every single thing that person says, they still have value, they still have dignity. And, um, I need to

treat them that way. Um, so, yeah, that's what I mean when I talk about forming faith every day, is that spirituality has, uh, to be the center of where we come from. >> Loren: Yeah, I'm appreciating that for two reasons. One is I kind of reflect on the state of young men in our nation and how so many kind of moving hard, right? And as I reflect as the next generation of men, I want better for them. And I'm thinking a so many of them, I feel like, were the ones who were kind of

marching in the Black Lives Matter. 4, 5, 6, whatever that was years ago. And it seems like without a foundation, they have been kind of swayed. Otherwise opposite. And then two. I think the other thing that I imagine you can agree with is I think without kind of, like you said, that foundation of this is an image of God bearer. There can be this kind of like, win at all costs mentality. I mean, I just saw

this, this video this morning of some. Someone who's famous going viral on YouTube for like, being mean to conservatives. Like, like. And I'm just like, what. What are we doing here? Like, how is that going to win anybody over? >> Susan: It will not. It will not.

>> Loren: Yeah. >> Susan: And we have to realize, I mean, and I don't even think even when Jesus was being critical of others, especially the religious leaders who thought they had it all together, um, I don't think he acted ever out of a disrespect for humanity or their humanness. I mean, I think my interpretation of what he did was always, always about getting people to understand that living in relationship with God, relationship with each others has to be based on love.

>> Loren: Do you think that's. I mean, do you think you. I'm, um, writing down the words living in relationship, relation, ship, trying to spell that here. Do you

think that's like, do you think that's an essential element of it, is living in relationship with people? Because again, I'm going back to your church, your church community. Like, like you said, you have people in relationship with one another who may vote differently, but, uh, because they are in relationship with one another, they have a common mission to serve and love others. >> Susan: Yes. It's all about my understanding of the gospel, of the Christian life. Discipleship. That

is it. That is the basis of it. And love is expressed through respect. And I can challenge someone and respect them at the same time as a person. And we can have, uh. I can have a conversation. I'm thinking about a couple people in my congregation who. We are very much on different sides of the political spectrum and we love each other. And I can have a conversation with them and ask them questions and let them ask me questions. >> Loren: Yeah.

>> Susan: Why, why do you. Yeah, tell me more about where you are coming from so I can understand, um, Stephen Covey and the seven habits of Hol. Effective people says, seek first to understand, then be understood. Um, and I think that that is really, really key. Um, and that kind of, um, in terms of the work that Rita and I are doing kind of fits

in with that. Um, because part, uh, of what we do with moral injury work is, uh, focus on listening Listening rather than fixing the other person to listen well. And um, you were able to experience a little bit of that, um, at the Renew and Remind conference through our fishbowl experience.

But when I have healing circles in my congregation, uh, which we've had several of them over the years, one of the things that I keep being amazed by is, is uh, in congregations most of the time you think about um, people who come to worship. How you doing? Oh, I'm doing great. How are you doing? You know, it's this little, little thing. And um, very rarely will people take the time to be transparent, um, maybe about how they're really

doing. So in these healing circles that we have done as a pilot project of um, how to heal, uh, from moral injury, um, we um, are very, very cognizant that we tend not to listen. Well, yeah, because we're thinking about the next thing we want to say to that person. And so, so in the healing circle you do not get to speak, you do not get to refer to what somebody else has said. You only speak your thing,

your truth. And as you're listening in the rest of the circle, the um, non verbal affirmation of putting your hand over your heart, nodding your head, doing those things, you are

focusing on that person and they are feeling hurt. But the beautiful thing for me, as one who tends not to listen very well, I'm thinking about that next thing I want to say to you, um, but it gives me that space to listen and to recognize the image of God in that other person that's sharing a really hard thing and um, being able to empathize with where they are. >> Loren: I want to stay on. This is sort of off topic,

but I think it fits in. I want to stay on this healing circle, uh, because Susan is describing something that they led at Remind and Renew, kind of, kind of put into practice a healing circle. So maybe, I guess real quick, just describe it. But what I want to come back to is. So just real quick describe like the, the ins and outs of it and then I want a follow up question. >> Susan: Right. So let me just say that

we developed. I've developed this project out of a sabbatical project that I had with the Louisville Institute, um, entitled, um, Moral Injury A Catalyst for Reform. And the idea was, um, for those of us who have a working definition of moral injury, um,

it is very, very. Rita will define it much better than I do, but um, the way that I describe moral injury is participating or witnessing something that happens that takes us beyond our moral compass, that creates harm and so um, we know this veterans um, come back from war, they've been commanded to do something like kill a non combatant or they've had um, you know, they come back with survivor guilt or whatever it is, but it is a moral injury that often they don't

talk about with anyone else. It leads to a higher rate of suicide. And then during COVID we saw this breaking out in the general population, um, because doctors were having to make decisions about who was going to go on life support and who wasn't. And families were not able to be with their loved ones when they were dying. And pastors were not able to go into hospitals and hold the hand of somebody who was dying. I mean all of us had this distress and injury that it

was going on. So part of my project was to look at the healing ministry of Jesus as a metaphor for leading us out of this moral injury. And so uh, where churches in the United States have focused so much on church growth and those kinds of things, what I wanted to say is maybe this is a time in which the church is being called back to healing ministry. Healing ministry. And so we developed these what we called healing circles. We call them also talking circles or we call them

soul repair circles. They're all the same. Um, and I really benefited from um, Rita and what she was doing with the Volunteers of America online program as well as another um, circle ministry out of ah, with a UCC pastor. Retired pastor up in Northern Ohio, had been working with veterans for 15 years at the time and um, so learning from them but to create something that would be um, an opportunity for people to come in and talk about that

stuff. So creating a circle, very ritualized, everything is um, prayed over before a group walks into a room and it's all set up in a certain way and we have symbols in the um, in the room and um, we might have a cross, we might have a shell, um, that we put anointing oil in. And people can anoint themselves. So it's just you know, creating that space. And um, when people come in they have to be quiet and they have to listen. And we have a stone that we allow people to um, hold and tell their

story. There will usually be a prompt at the beginning of the session. So I might ask, I um, might ask someone or everyone to write, take 7 minutes, 10 minutes to write down, write a letter to someone who they have unfinished, uh, emotional business with. That's one of the prompts that we using. And it's powerful. Yeah, um, because a lot of times and trying to use different ways, um, with the senses and different ways to get people in touch with what's going on in their soul.

Um, but one of the things that I love about healing circles is it gives permission. And you would be amazed at what people will share in an environment that is confidential, that is, um, that nothing that is shared is off limits. They can share whatever they want to share, and they're fully acceptable. >> Loren: It. >> Susan: It's powerful. And, um. And people in our

congregation. I have one. One guy who came in who had been, um, so much trauma in his childhood, and he's probably in his early 40s in. In therapy and has had lots and lots of. Of trauma that he's experienced. And he told me after being in a healing, he got more out of being in a healing circle than in all of the years that he'd been in there. Therapy, which is amazing to me. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Susan: Um, and truly a work of the spirit. >> Loren: Yeah.

>> Susan: So anyway, we. What we're doing at this point is trying to help other congregations to know that, um, you know, these are tools we can provide. And hopefully, um, uh, lay people in the congregation lead these. I don't lead them. Um, so it's not one more thing on the pastor's plate to do that. >> Loren: Right. >> Susan: To equip the lay people to do that ministry. >> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. I think it's such an important

tool. Things like this for a. Like, practically speaking, like, it doesn't have to just be the pastor and empowering lay folks, but creating spaces for understanding and wisdom communally. You know, I was remembering when you led this in Tulsa. I think that if I'm remembering correctly, the prompt was on a Habakkuk text. Do you remember the text? Text? >> Susan: Yeah, it was a. It was a lament from Hank, Chapter three, I think. I can't remember right now, but it. You know, even though the

leaves wither and the. I mean, it's kind of like, I will trust in you, oh, God. I mean, no matter. No matter what happens in my life and how bad things may seem, I. Yet I will trust in you, and I will, you know, I will be yours, you know, kind of thing. And so it was an opportunity for people to think about the things, um, that. That they're lamenting at the moment. And, you know, so many times, um, in my ministry, people have said, I can't be angry with God. >> Loren: Right.

>> Susan: Angry with God. And, um, you know, so I had this recently. My spiritual director asked me to do something on feelings. And I'm this person most of the time, but I'M also this person some of the time for listeners. >> Loren: There's a bright sun and then a red, angry sun. >> Susan: Red, angry sun. Yeah. Yeah. >> Loren: And. >> Susan: And the thing about it is, scripture says it's okay. >> Loren: Yeah.

>> Susan: To complain. It is okay to tell God, because God's got, you know, got the capacity to take all of m. That. And, um. And it's not a statement of lack of faith in God. It's a great statement of faith in God when we bring our injuries and in our troubles to God. Um, so, yeah, I keep this up. I keep this up here in my office to kind of, you know, do a little. Little, uh, inventory of myself from time to time, just to say, hey,

you know, I don't always. I'm not always going to be up. And that

is okay. >> Loren: Yeah. And I think, uh, well, meant is such an important and neglected tool. And I'm just thinking, like, I was just an observer for that healing circle and was listening to Rebecca, excuse me, the Habakkuk text, and folks kind of interpreting that accordingly. And then a few weeks later, I was leading a small group at my church, and we were talking about joy and the Philippians text and the kind of the paradox of finding joy in the midst of

challenge. And I remember the Habakkuk text, and I kind of, like, right then and there was kind of demonstrating it for the group. Uh, even though my commute was terrible, even though it's all this. And it was powerful for me even just to say that. And I think similarly for folks to hear that, and it's just such a wonderful example. Um, well, I'm grateful for this conversation. We do need to take a break

and come back with some closing questions. So let's take a quick break, and we'll come back with some closing questions. All right. We're back with Reverend Dr. Susan Diamond. Thank you so much for this conversation. And, uh, I feel like we need to have, like. I feel like you need to send me, like, an image of the happy and mad son for the show notes. Okay, we'll do that for those who just listen and may want to see it. Um, okay. These closing

questions always. We always tell folks, you can take these as seriously or not as you'd like to. If you're a pope for a day, what do you want to do? >> Susan: Okay, so, duh, talk to any female minister. I think they would say ordination of priests, Women priests, for sure. Yeah, absolutely. I guess if I got to be the Pope, that would already be a done thing. But, uh, just saying, maybe you're the first.

>> Loren: Maybe you're the first, um, a theologian or historical Christian figure you'd want to meet or bring back to life. >> Susan: Yeah. Dietrich, uh. Bonhoeffer. Dietrich Bonhoeffer. I have always been fascinated with him, um, both for his, um, incredible faith and, uh, insight into what does it mean to be, uh, the community of faith, the confessing community, um, and his courage that he had to stand up against Hitler. Um, and I've also been fascinated with, you

know, his. Because I consider myself a pacifist and I, uh, you know, that. What was it? I really want to understand what led him into being a part of the, you know, the resistance to the book that he was involved in conversations about assassination. You know, I just. Yeah, I would really love to have a conversation with him. I love his work, his. His books. Uh, the Cost of Discipleship is one of them. And the one on Community, I think, is Excell. Excellent as well. Yeah, yeah.

I'd like. I'd like talk to Dietrich Bonhoeffer. >> Loren: Well, here's a loaded question if ever there was one. What do you think history will remember from our current time and place? >> Susan: Yep. Um, lots of fear, lots of anxiety over the future. Um, and I think, uh, I'm getting closer to retirement. Um, and of course, you know, wondering what the future will look

like for someone like me. Um, so, personally, nationally, globally, um, you know, we're in the midst of great climate change and all of those things, so I think, um, you know, there's. I think fear and anxiety over the future is really palpable right now. Right. Yeah. >> Loren: Well, let's end on something. >> Susan: Like I said, like I said about Rita, you know, talking with Rita about this, I think that there's going to be a lot of work for us to do. Um,

and I hope that we. That we will be able to do it, um, with regard to moral injury, because I think that's going to be part of it. >> Loren: Yeah. Unfortunately, let's end on something more positive. What do you hope for the future of Christianity? >> Susan: Okay. I think I hope at least three things. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Susan: The first would be to remember who we are as human beings.

And we talked a little bit about that, um, with regard to being created in the image of God, beloved by God, and what love actually calls us to as followers of Jesus. So, um, when you say, um, you know, people even, you know, we see in the church this division that has happened in a making of enemies based on things that should not, uh, that should not be.

Um. And so how can, uh, as followers of Christ, um, how can we move into the future with the values of Christ, Uh, the core values of Christ, which is all about love. And, you know, and I don't. I don't mean the kind of love that's the feel good love. I'm talking about the love that's the hard kind of love. Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Loren: You've been married 46 years. You know something about hard love, right? >> Susan: I do. And, you know, here's. Okay, I'm going to tell

you all this. This is great. My, um. Probably 20 years ago, I remember one of my aunts saying to me that as, um, she and her husband had been married longer, that a different kind of love emerged. And it was a. It was good. And I have to say, I have to say now I'm more in love with my husband now than I have ever been. And it's a different kind of love, and it's a

deeper. And, um, so that gives me hope, um, you know, not just for my relationship with him, but as we focus on love, what, the hard stuff, um, how does that bring out about God's good in the world? So that's one thing. Um, the other is, let's see, three things. Okay. Um. Yeah, so we talked about renewing the ministry of healing, healing in the church.

This. One of the things my hope for the future of Christianity is, is, you know, um, how do we move from church, uh, growth, which I understand, we want more people to know Christ. And we. If we're doing the things that we have, the values that Christ has, so. Sorry. >> Loren: It's okay. >> Susan: I was trying to stop that. Okay, I'm gonna turn it. Silenced on my phone. Apparently it synced with my computer, but the sec. Yeah, yeah. The second

thing is, uh, renewing a ministry of healing. And then, um, as. As I am preparing over the next few years to retire, um, one of my. One of my real heart's desires and passions is, um, that God will call new spiritual leaders the church. And I have. I mean, I know that seminary enrollment's down, and I just. I just pray that God will bring the right people to ministry because it's a wonderful. It is a wonderful, hard, um, fantastic life. I have really loved what I have

done. And, um, yeah, there have been lots of times of tears, and there's been lots of times of struggle, struggles. But overall, you know, I'm so thankful for the call to ministry that God's given me. So, um, I'm praying for new spiritual leaders to come in that have a heart for God and, you know, um, are really about the values, the core values of Jesus Christ. >> Loren: Yeah. Awesome. Well, you have a podcast, right? Uh, where can folks connect with you and the podcast? All the. That.

>> Susan: Yeah. Um, so on the VOA volunteers, uh, of America website at the Shea Moral Injury center. Um, and now this is. You can get this podcast anywhere where you get podcasts, but if you want to go to their website you can also see the show notes and that kind of stuff. Um, but we have a podcast called Soul Repair After Moral Injury and it's um, co hosted by Rita and me and we talk with all kinds of people in this very limited six episode limited series. Um, we've talked about doing

some more. We haven't yet, but, um, who knows what the future will um, will lead us to. Um, we also um, are envisioning a book that we will be writing for the church, specifically for the church on moral injury. Um, and so we hope that uh, that will be a blessing for the church in the future. Um, and some other stuff about me you can find out on our church's website@florencechristian.org Florence in Kentucky. Uh, there's a lot of Florence Christian churches around, so it's got to be the one in

Kentucky. Also, uh, we've got a, the church has a Facebook page and we also have a YouTube channel. So uh, you can find sermons and, and um, meditations, uh, and daily devotions, those kinds of things on those channels. So um, feel free to check it out. >> Loren: Great. Great. Well, thanks so much for the conversation. Really appreciate your perspectives here. Something uh, we could do, folks should do more of we try to do here at this podcast. Leave folks with a word of

peace. So may God's peace be with you. >> Susan: And with you you. God bless you. >> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast. The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate Media. We love to hear from our listeners with questions, comments and ideas for future episodes. Visit our website@future-christian.com and find the connect with us for form at the bottom of the page to get in touch with Martha or Loren. But

before you go, do us a favor. Subscribe to the POD to leave a review. It really helps us get this out to more people. Thanks and go in peace.